Kuzu

I think the Sonic Cycle has found itself a partner

I consider myself more patient with Nintendo than most supposedly are at this point, but I give them till by E3 to make or break my trust in 'em. They gotta pull out like what 2019 done: Covering a fair share of upcoming first party attractions and pull out a real big announcement like BOTW2.  Admittedly a major part of it's chance at success rest on the last two fighters as well, but I won't let them completely dictate my judgement unless both end up total stinkers. 

What will matter is seeing if Nintendo can make a comeback after COVID gummed up the works for them. Come by that point, and MP4 is still a no show, too much is spent on celebrating Zelda in what'll just be a repeat of Mario's, too much time's spent covering what was already announced, they start resorting to 3DS ports ontop of what we've been getting, BOTW2's does not appear to be in a playable state, the variety is still too small and/or there's still not that many games for 2021, then I'll be concerned with what's going on with them. 

Positivity? In this place? We can't have that!

"the fanbase is unpleasable" is just how people deflect criticism now. 'ah, there was no winning with this crowd! what they decided to do was fine. no point in trying any harder.'

That's not what that means at all. Fact is, everyone is going to feel differently about somethin regardless of its actual quality, that's just how opinions work. Somebody can feel the exact opposite of you about the same thing and that becomes much more apparent when you have such a large fanbase. 

There are consensuses yes, but the bigger a franchise is, the more mixed things become and that has historically been true. 

That's not deflecting criticism as much as its acknowledging a very human phenomenon that happens. 

"you can please some of the people some of the time and some people all of the time but you can't please all of the people any time" -abraham lincoln, probably

And "Everyone has opinions" is such common knowledge that theres no reason to point it out. 

Some opinions are worth less than others. 

I'm legit convinced that if they made a 3D Sonic game with Modern Sonic, rolling physics, Tails and Knux playable and no pandering that an enormous chunk of the fanbase would be completely happy with that

When we're talking about a 2 minute trailer just about everyone's opinions are worth as much as eachother's

I'm sorry, but if someone's reaction to a two minute trailer is "FUCK YOU, THIS GAME IS RUINED FOREVER" or "ZOMG, THIS IS THE BESTEST"  then I cannot see how, in any way is that a valid opinion. It doesn't inform anything about the game, nor does it actually address anything that might be wrong or good.

Not that I don't expect kneejerk reactions from people, but it kind of illustrates my point at how polarizing certain things can and will be, particularly in an age when most people have easy access to social media.

Ever since people found out Sonic 4 is gonna suck by watching 2 seconds of gameplay I don't doubt peoples abilities :V

Yea, but at least in that case people actually broke down exactly what was wrong with the game in those trailers. Still obnoxious, but there's actual information to gleam at least.

Classic Sonic fans are a different breed for how over analytical they can be  :V

People always complaining about people complaining about people complaining about people complaining about people complaining about people complaining...

You said that to say what.

Pokemon fans have become so jaded and cynical lately that it's gonna take a near masterpiece from game freak to please them and frankly I can't blame them.

The only way for Pokemon fans to be satisfied with a game is that they would have to literally make it themselves, which is what usually happens when a fanbase gains enough influence to work on the games themselves. 

A part of me honestly doubts the series is going there with these next games.

Legends looks about as open world as I expect, and given what the Crown Tundra gave us, it might pay off....might not RUN well though. 

Idk man, they marketed the Wild Areas from SwSh in almost the exact same manner. I want to believe that's the direction they're going, but the pessimist in me is chanting "what if they're just showing wild area footage and most of the game is actually just SwSh 2."

It's unlikely, but I really don't know anymore lol

Ok but Pokemon of all series was one that warranted being open world in the first place, or at least more open than the games have been.

Quote

Pokemon essentially got bullied into it after SwSh,

Weren't SwSh already testing the waters with that because of the Wild Area?

Yea, and they got shit for it for not fully committing to the concept. 

I want to see a high budget fair try at a open world Sonic game at least once. I actually enjoyed Sonic Utopia despite it just being a playground test level and not the intended level style direction for the final game.

Oh? What's the deal with that game?

need that Switch Pro before 2022 tho

that gameplay was struggling

It was CHUGGIN.

@Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon Open world Pokemon game essentially. a REAL one. 

Yeah the chugging made me laugh. I couldn't tell if some of it was intentional though. The game has a vaguely painted look to it, and it wouldn't be unnatural or off putting for the animations to be intentionally chopping like traditional paper based animation. But the playable characters were smooth as was the scenery, so I'm guessing it's just the SwSh Wild Area Online Experience.

But Espio doesn't have a funny meme like Finding the Computer Room attached to him

who really LOVES espio though

he is kinda... bland

Espio sounds super cool, but he's never been given the exposure to live up to any of his on-paper potential. He is, at best, a bit of a bland ninja. Vector has much more potential in my opinion. And Team Chaotix as a whole is at its best when its members are a bunch of over-confident goofballs who get the job done, but don't exactly do the job well.

I lost it at into milfs

Espio is bland yea, but he's a ninja and kids love ninjas. Hence why I said he's popular with the target demographic. @JosepHenry

Ninja's are cool when they're actually doing ninja shit. Espio is an armchair ninja. Is Espio really any more popular than Vector? 

And there’s the Multiple Demographic Appeal that goes beyond age.

Mindblowing, isn’t it?

Well they're both C tier characters. I was talking purely within the Chaotix themselves.

only time Espio showcases his coolness is...

the idw sonic comics

Why would anyone who's not a fan hate it?

Well the game would actually have to be bad for that to happen.

"No one hated [Alien 3] more than me; to this day, no one hates [Alien 3] more than me."

David Fincher, director of Alien 3

A part of me is just expecting a focus on New Snap and just a teaser of any possible mainline stuff like they did with Sun and Moon, honestly.

Oh lol that Sun and Moon trailer. Five minutes of "emotional" footage of people playing old Pokémon games, followed by game logos. I forgot about that train wreck. 

So even if they announce "nothing", it's gonna be a shitshow lol. 

whatever results in the largest number of character/level pairs

i don't really have a preference beyond that because they're just two different kinds of stories

I like seeing everyone follow along Sonic's lead. The story may be too reliant on him like that but I enjoy seeing the group of characters all interacting instead of talking to themselves (if they would be alone in their own campaigns)

Individual character campaigns, After Generations and Forces i don't have confidence in Sega depicting Sonic and and his friends as being equals whenever Sonic as top billing in the story

I'll take either. the story usually benefits more from separate campaigns but it's harder to get right on the gameplay side. 

Something more like Crash 4; most of the levels would consist of Sonic, but other characters take the spotlight every now and then.

Individuals. have like the Sonic/Super route be the canon one, and the others be like what if routes.

I like individual character campaigns.

A follow sonic's lead campaign more like the subspace emmisary where you choose which character to tackle a level right after a cutscene from that specific group of characters you unlock through the story. It could work if the gameplay is done right.

And the one exception was terrible anyway.

That Egg Nega Wisp spam is really just a microcosm of how Sonic Team operated in the 2010s. The did something good and instead of improving it or changing it to something different but still good like a normal video game series they just kept reusing the same idea with no changes or improvements until everyone got sick of it 

It’s sad that the Time Eater sucks but he’s the most original thing we’ve had in 10 years.

In fairness, Nintendo did the same shit too with Mario, to an equally unacceptable degree. For most of the 2010s, every fight with Bowser was essentially just a variation of “run away”. I think the only exception was NSMBU, where you had the koopa clown car fight with him. I think it’s just slightly less noticeable because there were usually a second variation that was equally overused (run past Bowser and hit an axe, or kick bombs into Bowser’s car), plus some chase scenes at least had unique set pieces (Bowser abusing power ups in 3D World).

Odyssey finally did something new with the deal with the fight, followed by Mario capturing Bowser and using him to escape from the moon, and Bowser’s Fury, while a bit boring at least tried something new.

Almost every Mario fight functioned differently, had different level design, different attacks etc. With Sonic it was quite literally the exact same fight

And even when Mario does reuse familiar boss fights, they at least TRY to change it up. 

The Bowser fights in 64, Sunshine, Galaxy, Galaxy 2, 3D World, and Odyessey are all different and unique from each other. 

What gets me about the re use in SLW is that it wasn't even a boost game but they pretty much forced it into one just for the final boss it doesn't test any of the parkour skills or even wisps just....run jump and homming attack, jeez.

@Kuzu Considering I specifically mentioned a period of time past 2010 and before Odyssey, those other games don’t account for anything. That’s like defending Sonic’s reuse by saying Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes, and Unleashed all had different fights.

For a period of time, Mario fights with Bowser were literally either run past and touch axe to put him into the lava, or running away from him as he chased you through a level. Nintendo did a far superior job masking it via spectacular set pieces (3D World especially), but for awhile, that’s what the fights amounted to.

The difference is Nintendo got their shit together following 3D World and started diversifying the fights, something both Odyssey and Bowser’s Fury showcased by having properly different battles from Bowser. Odyssey has a straight up fist fight with him while Bowser’s Fury turns it into a Kaiju battle while using the cat suit’s natural abilities.

OK but the Sonic franchise doesn't have more money than Jesus,

just... please don't let the sinnoh remakes be let's go games...

@Spin Attaxx Sega Sammy is rich as fuck dude. Not Pokemon Rich, but still have enough.

These are the first remakes I'm not really looking forward to, unfortunately.

Everyone hates Sojic including the fans but it's really only Pokémon fans that hate Pokémon 

Naw, the movie showed that people like Sonic, so it's only just the fans. 

People didn’t start hating on Pokémon when it went...to...3D...ooooooooh

@Strickerx5 I highly doubt that Gen 4 remakes would seriously be given the Let's Go treatment over just basing them on Sword/Shield, like prior remakes have done in their generations.

Pokemon's not the one who appreciates whenever their fans come along and make their own games that capture the charm the modern entries had long since lost, to the point where they even hire fans to make an official fangame to celebrate a big milestone.

@Dejimon11 Pokemon had a rocky transition to 3D.

It's because the way things are tend to be disappointing or otherwise substandard (with the occasional exception)

This is only partially true. I don't mean to imply that there's any any ill-intent or wilful ignorance in your statement, but you probably know that this isn't strictly the case.

There's a ton of hypotheticals because Sonic regularly misses the mark on small things and big things in small ways and large ways. People spend a lot of time talking about what things actually are and why things aren't what they wanted, which naturally leads to discussion how things could or should be.

Especially during the downtime for the series... It's been over three years since the last two main-series games were released and almost two years since the last spin-off. What else do you want or expect people to talk about?

I kinda think they'll save Eggman for June since both of these characters share the same b'day.

I'm glad in hindsight that my experience with any long runners was limited to begin with, and that I was in no rush to follow them through to the point they ever went bad.

Eh, depends. Some keep your interest even in changing times, others not so much.

I’ve stuck with Sonic since the Genesis era but got tired of Pokémon after Gold and Silver, so it really just depends on how attached you want to be.

I mean... It's unlikely that SEGA actually fired him and the other actors who have left the series. The most likely scenario was that SEGA changed their contracts moving forwards, and cast members including Smith didn't agree to the new terms. That, or SEGA wasn't interested in meeting new expectations of the actors (unions, increased pay etc...). Either way, it would technically be the case that Smith left the role of his own volition but practically it was more SEGA'S doing.

Well ,its none of our business at the end of the day. 

Still sucks though. 

I remember when I used to debate power levels. Yeesh I can't be that headstrong anymore. I rather just simplify it to consistency rather than boiling it all down to numbers.

I don't think there was ever a time when I was so obsessed with numbers.

why are all the shadow fans that got banned making alts lately

Because they have no life.

I'll raise you "talking about power levels in literally anything"

Not any more or less likely than anyone else I guess. I mean SEGA’s due a roster slot, but so is Capcom and other third parties. Could be Dante, or hell - could be a Zelda character with the anniversary next week.

0.001%

Not likely as it's gonna be Tails

How long until Sonic YouTubers start releasing videos of all their Sonic predictions for tomorrow's direct?

About the same chance that it'll be Phoenix Wright.

Crash 4 does drop on Switch next month 👀👀👀

i dunno, i'd take a short but great game over a long but disappointing one, but i don't think the math works out in sonic's favor. i mean if we're talking 2-3 hours of gameplay, cutscenes and such aside, that might be enough, but i'm not sure how 3d sonic gets there without padding or "cheaper" alternate gameplay.

Sonic Colors had like what.... 1/2 hour of 3D content total?

Unleashed's daytime stages couldn't have been much more, considering how fast the blue bugger moves in that game.

It's easy to ask for a dodge to the padding, but its just so dang resource expensive to build that its hard to reach that 2/3 hour milestone, and even if they do without an extremely strong post-game or hardcore replay-ability incentives, I seriously doubt most people would be happy with that short a campaign. I for one would feel short changed.

Sonic games almost always can be completed in a day or so, but 2-3 hours feels way short to me.

Imo, most of the replay value in this series stems directly from simply replaying levels to get better times/scores. I often look back at any 3D game and often say to myself "Ya know, if I had gotten 1 or 2 more good Sonic levels there instead of whatever padding they used, I'd probably have much more fun with it." Those are often the elements of these games I always come back to so having even a tiny bit more of them would go a long way. First playthrough time be damned.

I agree that this drive for length isn't necessary. Hell, nowadays, a game being overly long can actually be a turn off for me.

That being said, if they really want to go down that long route, I still believe the way Gens did it is prime. Build out those main Sonic levels but then have a few missions take place within them separately. Just make it optional to for separate unlocks outside the story. Though keep in mind, I also far from hate how the Adventure games did it either. You just gotta have that narrative drive for that to work out which has been... non-existent over the past decade+.

Even when I do have the narrative drive to finish, that shit is so fucking draining. You finish the story once, that narrative drive is gone since you already know what happens, so all you're left with is the gameplay. And you can't tell me with a straight face that you would go back and replay Big's levels to get to the ending in Sonic Adventure.

If the problem is replayability, then just do it similar to Crash 4 and have something to collect in these levels. Or go back to how Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 did it and have some type of mission mode. Sonic games, in general, just aren't supposed to be very long. As mentioned, the value comes from replaying and trying to master the game as well as find hidden secrets, that alone can justify repeat playthroughs without having to pad things out.

Lower the price to $40 if you got to, but as I said, trying to pad these games out is doing more harm than good at this point.

If you really want to add something to the game that's adds replayability while being optional - mission creator. Nothing massively drastic like designing your own levels, but just the ability to add your own markers to a level, such as marking a specific enemy to destroy or a certain ring that needs collecting. If people don't want to engage with it, fair enough, but it's there for those who will.

It's something that adds a bit more variety, after all. Sonic Team can add their own, of course, but the community could come up with a lot more.

They need to look at how Nintendo designs full fledged platformers while completely sidestepping anything resembling padding. Mario isn't guilt free in this regard but it's a lot less problematic than most 3D Sonic games.