Celestia

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Celestia last won the day on March 14

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About Celestia

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    Abundant courage! Overflowing hope!

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  • Interests
    (In no particular order.)
    - Writing & reading
    - Autumn and Winter
    - Princesses
    - The colour purple
    - Superheroes
    - The secrets of the universe
    - Ice cream
    - Shipping
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    Canada
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    SEGA of Pure Illusion

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  1. (tweet)

    Oh no.....

    1. RosaRosaRosalina

      RosaRosaRosalina

      luigi is unstoppable 

      none can be saved

  2. For the past few days--I guess Sonic's birthday is to blame?--I've been thinkin' about a couple of spinoff ideas. They're certainly very much unrealistic, but I like 'em. Enough to put possibly too much thought into them. 1) A Rush revival: Put simply: simultaneously reviving Rush as an ongoing subseries and reinventing the boost games into, well, that. The whole idea would be to get back to what people actually enjoyed about the boost games, particularly Rush + Unleashed, without feeling the need to make compromises like blocky platforming that arguably goes against what the style does best. That said there would be steps made to make things more interesting, such as including a roll (+ spin dash) but actually making it useful unlike the Rush games, and I'm thinking very context-only moves like the quickstep and drift would be ditched in favour of simply making Sonic and Blaze(!!!!) satisfying to maneuver around obstacles more naturally. The trick system and tension gauge would be back and function just as it did in Rush + SRA, requiring you to stay on your toes a lot more to keep the gauge filled, since Unleashed and onwards is lot more generous in that regard. Also a ton of suggestions--including some I already mentioned--can be attributed to @Josh. One of my favourite suggestions he had was basing the levels on real world locations ala Unleashed. While some of the real world inspirations are tentative, there's a few that I'm in love with--the first zone would be based on this place, for one example. One of my favourite things about this idea is that we'd get to learn more about Blaze's world and the characters in it. Sonic would definitely be around for this subseries (though not necessarily every game) but I feel like shifting the focus to her and other characters in her universe would make sense. Then again I'm biased because Blaze is one of my faves, so 2) Experimental platform/puzzle thing? The other idea is a lot more vague and hasn't been fleshed out much? Basically it'd be blatantly ripping off "inspired" by Mario Odyssey, being a spinoff where you use a Ring to navigate (think the Chaotix Rings I guess but the tether effect is used on stuff in the environment to launch yourself around, etc.) as well as short circuit badniks. This leaves them vulnerable to attack, but if you leave 'em for a couple seconds the animal inside will now be in control. Then the badniks follow you around, or maybe you can ride on 'em and use their abilities for stuff? Again, not super fleshed out. Also this one would probably star Amy because this game would, at least how I'm envisioning it, be slower-paced than the average Sonic game. She'd be faster than SA1 but with that game's moveset + spin attacks (including rolling!) + some additions (i.e. I was thinking she could have a wall jump where she uses her hammer jump on walls) + of course, the Ring you can throw around. Oh and this is probably a huge cliché with regards to ~Amy spinoff ideas~, but Metal Sonic would absolutely be a rival boss you fight two or three times. So yeah these are the spinoffs that would happen in a world where I was in charge of this franchise for some unfathomable reason. Meanwhile the main series would definitely be building off SA1/SA2 core gameplay but moving on from all the (at the time necessary) scripting, etc. etc. all that good stuff, which is why spinoffs that are based at least partially in platforming would incorporate rolling physics even if they aren't necessarily the focus.
  3. I think I've said this before but a 3D Land/World-style camera + 8-directional movement could help a lot in bringing classic Sonic physics to 3D. It'd come with it's own issues though--while this is subjective, those very limitations + the level design make those games feel like 2D games but with 3D movement, if that makes sense. Something to think about, I guess.

    1. The Deleter

      The Deleter

      Yep yep

      A lot of issues with players missing platforms when flying off of ramps would be fixed, Loop the loops with correctional terrain would be fixed, hitting enemies in a 3D space without a homing attack would kinda be fixed...

      It's really weird that no one has made a game that capitalizes on this yet, tbh. I mean we have a 3D World fangame for Sonic, but it doesn't even use any dynamic physics in the first place...

    2. Celestia

      Celestia

      Loops are honestly the biggest issue I'm thinking of here. Maybe the camera could adjust specifically for those? Not the most elegant solution but could work.

      I'd prefer that to the way 3D Sonic fangames (+ Sonic R) handle it where you stay behind your character's back all throughout the loop, gah.

    3. The Deleter

      The Deleter

      Well if you're viewing them from the side, like 3D Land/World are usually, there's not much of an issue with them. Just make the terrain carry them around it naturally, through scripting or pathwork, but allow the player to fall out if they want. Lego Dimensions did basically that, so it's definitely not impossible.

      Unless you're saying you want the loops to be behind the back, instead? Because with the way you worded it it sounds like you don't want that, lol

      (also it'd fix running up a wall in a straight line, as so many players seem to have trouble with in Adventure whenever they miss the boost pads in Emerald Coast)

    4. Celestia

      Celestia

      Yeah I wouldn't want loops to be behind the back.

      And to be fair moving in a straight line at all in Adventure is......I don't want to say "impossible," but,

    5. Diogenes

      Diogenes

      it'd probably work well enough, but, eh, I dunno. 3d world's style definitely has roots in how blocky 2d mario games are, and 2d sonic always had a more organic feel in comparison. as much as it would solve some issues, I don't think the tradeoff would be entirely worth it.

      and talking about loops specifically, I'd honestly rather do away with loops than do something to make them work that I feel would compromise other parts of the game. the traditional loop doesn't make a whole lot of sense in 3d anyway, it's hard to justify taking the loop rather than going around or cutting through the middle. as iconic as loops are I feel they're something that needs to be changed to better adapt to 3D or simply dropped.

    6. The Deleter

      The Deleter

      Well that's where you and I disagree then, lol, behind-the-back loops are absolutely awesome and I won't rest until we get an amazing Sonic game containing them :V

      It's like a bloody roller coaster and I love it so much augh


      But yeah the mere concept of locking Sonic 8-ways really does fix a ton of problems with the franchise and 3D, yeah. And it'd be amazing in it's own way. Like, just imagine starting the level platforming up the side of a mountain ala Bell Hills, then rolling down said hill from the rear, manuvering around stuff, then pulling a hard right with a half pipe concave in the side of a wall at the end, and then carrying all that momentum to the side with Sonic blasting along a 2D-esque speedway, going through a loop or two without requiring any input on your end, and then getting flung into the air by a ramp, allowing you to either use that height to reverse course and get the 1-up at the top of the loop you just saw, or make a "leap of faith" onto a high route that you can't see just yet, and then continues on into another forward-facing 3D platforming section

      It'd be sogood

      @Diogenes loops in 3D are justified by the speed they give you when you manage to go through them, my goodness it's really not that hard to justify at all sdkhfsjhgf

      They're not an obstacle anymore but they darn sure still have a purpose

    7. Diogenes

      Diogenes

      how much speed do you actually gain from a loop, balanced against the difficulty of completing it and the time lost travelling it? even if you do come out ahead, I don't think it'd be that enticing to a player over taking an easier, safer route unless they're dead set on shaving a few seconds off their time.

    8. Celestia

      Celestia

      Now that I think about it, maybe you could just have the corkscrew loops instead? It'd make sense for them to be the standard for loops in 3D Sonics since the camera wouldn't have to reposition at all. The brief spectacle is there while still requiring player input + speed so it can be an obstacle of sorts.

      Admittedly I'm imagining it'd be scripted so you just need to hold in the direction you were moving, but I'm fine with that as long as you fall out of them if you slow down too much / try to stop for whatever reason. (I...actually don't recall if the corkscrew loops in Generations actually work that way, but this is all hypothetical anyway, not "Sonic Team can definitely do this thing.")

    9. The Deleter

      The Deleter

      Well then at that point what is even the point of high-route, low-route design in a Sonic game, if the player is just going to tend to be satisfied with the absolute bare minimum and not tend to use Sonic's abilities for what they were designed for in the first place? Why roll down a hill? Why jump at the end of a platform?...

      I really wouldn't mind having level design actually being built around how much speed you have to progress, though. It'd make sense, to teach the player how to play the game, and actually develop their skills around it, like Mario does with his platforming mechanics. It's probably why we have so many video game players who have played Sonic but don't fully understand him, tbh.

      @Celestia: I'm not sure what you're saying, though; why does the camera need to reposition for loops? Are you talking about when Sonic is running away from the camera, hypothetically? Because the solution is just not to have loops in the level design in that case, really :V

      Corkscrews would work fine too, though. They'd be a lot more apparent with the scripting, though, yeah.

    10. Diogenes

      Diogenes

      Quote

      Well then at that point what is even the point of high-route, low-route design in a Sonic game, if the player is just going to tend to be satisfied with the absolute bare minimum and not tend to use Sonic's abilities for what they were designed for in the first place? Why roll down a hill? Why jump at the end of a platform?...

      It's a matter of scale. again, how much do you actually gain from doing a loop vs going around? the higher the risks and the lower the reward, the less people are inclined to take it even if it's ultimately beneficial. considering the difficulty of going around a non-automated loop and that even done properly a loop isn't going to give you a crazy amount of speed, it's a bit of a hard sell.

      and it's not like I'm saying they should get rid of crazy roller coaster styled level elements entirely, just that they should focus on the ones that work best in 3d and not cling to ones that are more trouble than they're worth. celestia mentioned corkscrews, and I think that's probably the best way to reinterpret loops for 3d sonic; they're essentially just a stretched out and slightly twisted loop, and I think they'd allow for better camera angles and a better degree of control than traditional loops do.

    11. Celestia

      Celestia

      What I mean is, the camera kinda has to do something if it doesn't stay right behind your character and follow 'em through the loop. That's an option, sure, but I really don't like the feel of it in everything that's attempted that, and sometimes it's straight up dizzying (especially when it comes to the corkscrew style loops, lol).

      I can respect why people think it's a good direction for loops in 3D, but I feel like it's ironically best to keep them simple. Even in, say, a hypothetical game that brings the pinball/rolling physics back to the 3D games.

    12. The Deleter

      The Deleter

      @Diogenes: ..... Que????

      Have... Have you played any 3D Sonic games where you run through corkscrews???

      Because shuttle loops are a million times easier to stay inside of. And we haven't even had any examples that make use of visual lines to show how straight you are when running through one, either. Just chaotic checkerboard textures, and yet they still make more sense.

      There's a reason Utopia gave the two corkscrews you could find in it guardrails


      And nah, I'm not implying the loops be the dinky things found in the classics or Utopia; they should be much more GHP than not. Large, incredibly rewarding in terms of speed payoff, and irresistible. Smaller loops would have more merit as an outright obstacle than not, tbh. Unless we're talking the 3D World approach, in which case it doesn't matter, they'd be super easy to navigate; as easy as 2D.

      @Celestia: But that's only if you're running away from the screen, which you do very little of in Mario 3D Land or World. If you only use loops from the side, all the problems are fixed. In which case, why would you use them when running away from the screen, lol?

      Though if it were a see-through, glass loop, I could see it working, maybe. But it really wouldn't be as effective as it would be from the side. You could just have a route transition inside the away-from-camera 3D section which turns Sonic 90 degrees to go through a loop, and then spit him out 90 degrees back to keep going in 3D, as well.

      But basically yeah, it wouldn't work well when running away from the screen through one, I agree, lol

    13. Celestia

      Celestia

      Oh, I was talking Sonic games in general, obviously this wouldn't really be an issue at all in something based on 3D World's camera / movement.

      Now I see where the confusion is here lol

    14. Diogenes

      Diogenes

      Quote

      Have... Have you played any 3D Sonic games where you run through corkscrews???

      really the question is "have i played any 3d sonic games that didn't control like garbage", and right now the count is at 1...ish.

      Quote

      There's a reason Utopia gave the two corkscrews you could find in it guardrails

      well yeah, isn't that the most reasonable way to do either of them? also iirc utopia's corkscrews are super, super narrow, I was thinking more something like this, where you actually have a fair amount of leeway and, unlike a traditional loop, you keep moving in a sane, mostly-forward direction.

      Quote

      And nah, I'm not implying the loops be the dinky things found in the classics or Utopia; they should be much more GHP than not. Large, incredibly rewarding in terms of speed payoff, and irresistible.

      Big loops require proportionately more speed, increasing both the chances of and penalty for failure. I'm not sure it changes the equation that much.

    15. The Deleter

      The Deleter

      Well I have the experience of playing games outside of Sonic that control well but contain both loops and corkscrews, and yeah, they're much harder to tackle overall, lmao

      If you turn inside a loop, you merely have to reassert yourself to retain control over your path, since you have grip at all times. Corkscrews, on the other hand, have a very specific arc to follow to have grip in the first place, due to how low the centrifugal force is with that kind of a shape. And one misstep/steer outside of that arc, and you're a goner. It's why width =/= a better corkscrew, in any and all cases. It's inbetween the difference of a neverending loop and a cylinder, and the arc needed to stay grounded.

      And especially important, we're talking about a series with dynamic speed here. Unlike loops, where there is a minimum success speed and no max, (unlike real life where it'd crush your bones, lol) corkscrews need that minimum speed to clear, and a maximum speed to stay in easy control of. With that speed comes a force that wants to continue going straight, rather than be redirected by the curve, and will as a result will stray towards the outside of the corkscrew rather than the inside, and that's if you have an on point trajectory in the first place. It's why some corkscrews are designed slightly facing the character in the first place, but that introduces it's own steering problems.

      And because all of that is so important... no, walls aren't a be all, end all fix, lol. If the corkscrew is narrow and the walls are ridiculously slippy, it'll keep you inside it, yeah, but if not, they're just as much of a guarantee of your failure as falling off the edge of anything wider than the necessary arc.

      I'd say that Utopia's handling of them was probably for the best, (though the turn before entering the screw at the first one was a bad move) and even then... They really aren't easy to pull off in 3D, that's all that needs to be said, lol. They need to be controlled, either with scripting or barriers, because the fail rate would be astronomically high if it were anything otherwise.


      Compared to just... running/driving slightly straight through a loop.

      That All Stars clip really isn't a good representation of how these actually work, lol. The uneven arc it presents you in fact would throw you off before you reached the end for anything with real physics going for it.

       

      And the whole point of playing a Sonic game is to go fast idjkga why are you even arguing that idea

  4. Maybe in a couple decades or so they'll release a compilation of remakes featuring the trilogy, CTR, Wraith of Cortex, Twinsanity, and the Mutant games. That'll show ya.
  5. What I've heard about B&V hasn't been that great, so I'm not surprised if it's canned or at least going on hiatus. Gonna predict it's getting a new creative team, and I think Jughead will ultimately come back too. Assuming they're still serious about the whole New Archie initiative. I kinda hope they don't just give up on it since there's a lot of potential there.
  6. ... You know what? I'm joining the Anti-Iizuka Club. I finally understand now. Honestly I hope Mania does well enough to not only encourage followups by the same team, but also convince SEGA to be more willing to bring in new devs, despite how uh...catastrophic that's been (I don't think I need to name names). Hopefully they've learned from that fiasco. Plus it's actually a really good idea to "test" new devs with stuff like remasters. In my wildest dreams they'd revive Rush into a full on subseries with some new devs who won't fall into the same habits as Dimps while also understanding the good points of those games....sigh.
  7. Eh, Silver's a weird case because he's already a character from another time. There's no "present" Silver to rip out of time; you could argue that just because the Silver we encounter in Generations has met Sonic before, that doesn't mean Sonic has met him (that's time travel for ya). Though admittedly his post-'06 appearances do have a vague continuity of sorts, I think we're supposed to consider Rivals or w/e as his proper first encounter with Sonic? But that's a spinoff and SEGA/Sonic Team's stance on those being canon is a bit all over the place.
  8. Yeah, that's what I'm saying: I'm confident there's going to be a reason for it. The only question is if it'll be handled well. Personally I'm predicting that he's gonna turn out to be a mole but he's not going to let Sonic in on it. For some reason I get the impression they'll go for a relatively mundane explanation like that instead of stuff like mind control or alternate timelines, which I'd be fine with but I think this being the Shadow we know and he's doing it of his own free will would make for more interesting interactions.
  9. I kinda just assumed the Shadow we fought was SA2!Shadow and the one who showed up at the end was present day Shadow (I like to think he got snatched too but was immune to the whole freezing thing because fuck it, why does Sonic get to be the only one?) and waved it off. I wouldn't inherently be against some other explanation, I just lean towards the simplest interpretation with that whole issue. Speaking of, I'm pretty confident they'll explain things like Shadow apparently switching sides in this game. Now, will the explanations be good or at least serviceable? Maybe, maybe not. But I'll be surprised if they don't address it at all.
  10. The only tracks I'm not feeling are the classic ones. I don't need to go over how bad Classic's GHZ is, but that boss theme is...weird. It's actually not bad even, it's just weirdly...empty? Wouldn't be surprised if it was a WIP too.
  11. I guess my point is that the lives system doesn't really qualify as a decent punishment anymore. Even putting aside that game overs don't force you to start a new game, modern platformers (Sonic included) that do bother to have lives are very generous with them. It's become normal to end a Mario or Sonic game with the max number of lives without even really trying. Because of this I can't even really complain if they include lives, but when I look at something like that I can't help but think 'well, why even include this system in the first place?' That's unnecessary. Tradition just isn't a good enough reason for me, tho' I can totally understand being attached to abstract stuff like this. Hell, part of me is sad to see lives go just because I liked getting something for every 100 Rings (or coins, or whatever). But they could just as easily come up with some other reward for that. Also RE: incentive for keeping Rings: again, S Ranks. :V Though there's also probably a shop for custom character stuff so yeah, there's that too. ...Speaking of which, and on another note, I'm kinda surprised we didn't get a look at the character creator here. That was one of the things I was expecting from their E3 showcase. I mean, I assume the game has presets--especially in show floor demos--but I was still expecting it in one of the stream demonstrations or something, yet as far as I can remember we didn't see it at all. Wonder if they'll show it off during one of the Sonic official streams or something.
  12. I can't see the Chaotix taking Eggman's offer seriously anyway, but it would be cute if they referenced that. I could even see it happening if Ian Flynn really is involved in this game somehow. Seems like the kind of nod he'd throw in there.
  13. If anything, abandoning lives might encourage the designers to actually challenge players more. Besides, even when the games were tougher and game overs were...slightly more likely (I can't say even from Adventure thru Unleashed it happened to me more than maybe a handful of times, but I digress), it was still pretty pointless. You don't have to start the whole game over, understandably enough, just the stage you left off at. It's such a mild punishment that you might as well get rid of the lives system...and here we are. (Possibly. Like I said, could just be a demo thing.) And something else I realized after making my previous post: Sonic games already encourage you to Not Die with the ranking system.
  14. It might just be a demo thing, but I'm fine either way. Lives became more and more worthless in the post-arcade era, and the few non-Mario/Sonic platformers you see nowadays tend to not bother with them. It's no surprise to see even the few long-running platformers still around starting to let lives systems go.