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herefor1reason

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  1. Yeah, could've worded that a little better. I just meant that there wouldn't need to be some fundamental shift in how levels are designed just because your character can fly or glide. Yeah, you definitely still have to do level design, take into account the limits of your characters, how their abilities could break some of your design, but it's less a problem than for something like Sonic's levels in Adventure 1 where most of the level can just be completely skipped by flying over it where Sonic would have to run. In an open world, flying over and around stuff is less a problem, at least, if it's more Botw and less Mario Odyssey. There's definitely gonna be SOME gating but it's an open world, going wherever you want is kind of the point.
  2. Another thing to note about returning characters is that an open world pretty soundly solves the problem of their abilities breaking the linear level design. Smart level design can get around that anyway in a 3d Sonic game (Sonic GT has Ray and the level design still works fine) but an open world doesn't really require any caveats. No extra stuff the designers have to do to accommodate characters like Tails and Knuckles. If you're expected to check every nook and cranny, then having characters that can fly, glide, and climb walls stops being any kind of issue. MY hope is more fundamental than that though. I know there's supposed to be the boost segments with bosses and chaos emerald collecting and whatever, but I want them to stay JUST that, SEGMENTS. I want them to be the game's special stages AT MOST. I want a focus on rolling physics to come back to Sonic y'know? No better time than an open world game, where HOW you move and get around being inherently fun is more important than anything. BOTW solves ITS version of this problem by building its world around climbing, gliding, and stamina, with most locations built in a generally pyramidal way, with large foundations thinning out to pointed tops so there are plenty of spots the player can choose to jump and glide from depending on where they want to go and what their circumstances are. Moment to moment, it's sprinting, climbing, and gliding as its core movement. How those work on a granular, mechanical level matters for how fun they make the game both individually AND chained together and the same sort of thinking would apply to Sonic. The idea of just boosting from place to place, even with obstacles and challenges dotted throughout the landscape built for the boost, doesn't sound very fun to me. But running, rolling, spindashing, jumping, and homing attack/air dashing? As a series of gameplay verbs for navigating an open world platformer? SO much more appealing. It comes down to that moment to moment experience, what each thing means for the decisions you have to make per second. The boost as a mechanic is geared towards linearity, towards binary decisions, it pushes you forward continuously without allowing for much in the way of expressive movement. It reduces your movement options, rather than increasing them. But rolling? Spindashing? Those are flexible. Which way am I spindashing? Do I start rolling now and get to top speed for the higher ledge at the end of this ramp or to I start later and go for the lower path. Should I jump now or later in the slope to get where I want to go? Remember when Mario Odyssey came out and people were just going nuts with the expressive movement getting to hidden areas and coming up with new tricks? Like that but with Sonic's base gameplay (I know, open world, potentially different design needs...still though). In an open world game as much as a regular 3d platformer, what you're doing moment to moment matters most. I think the boost would sort of be a lot like sailing in Wind Waker, where there's not really all that much you're doing between destinations but waiting until you get there and maybe swerving to pick up treasure or fighting random enemies. Basically a glorified loading screen (and I love Wind Waker, but it is what it is, faults and all). One of the leaks described the demo they played as reminding them of one of those Unreal engine Mario things, which makes sense for something that early, EVERYTHING is a placeholder, but it makes me think this COULD be more of a platformer than we've had in a LONG time, because they said there were SEGMENTS with the boost gameplay, that unlock after collecting orbs and you go back to a main overworld and it makes me think that the meat and potatoes of the game ISN'T gonna be boosting.
  3. I like the idea of the boost gameplay being used when collecting Chaos Emeralds (assuming the leaks are true, though the whole metadata thing plus the press release calling it Rangers inclines me to think they are). Cool way to bring back the special stages in a 3d game, at least, that's what it sounds to me like they're doing. The important thing will be the moment to moment gameplay though. FAR more important than the overall structure the game takes, how does it feel to move Sonic second to second, minute to minute? Am I rolling? Boosting (for the love of god, no, unless it's like the Advance games, which looking at the trailer, that IS the impression I got from how the visual effects build up to the boost, though it IS a prerendered trailer that could be fully divorced from gameplay, the loop Sonic does into the weird glyph makes me think we can maybe look into things that way)? Both? Rumors do talk about a skill tree, maybe how Sonic moves plays a part. Would be an interesting way to compromise for fans of both abilities though until I know more, I'm not lending a lot of credence to that idea. I saw somewhere earlier today that this is being made by the team that made Generations and Forces and that...does not inspire a lot of confidence. I like Generations' level design (for a boost game) and I am NOT getting into my feelings on Forces (again) but I'm just...so not interested in playing more of what the post Unleashed era of Sonic has to offer, excepting Mania because Mania. I'm glad Colors is coming to modern hardware and PCs (especially because modding) but I miss the fluidity and the exploration. I miss ramp jumping and finding secrets, chaining movements to maximize the use of my speed to reach new heights and utterly breaking the level geometry with natural as breathing movement.
  4. Shadow's forced characterization as Vegeta the Hedgehog rather than Sonic: Brooding Addition. He was less Vegeta and more Zero from Megaman X. A character with the same (but slightly different) abilities and general design of the main character but more "mature" and powerful. All the cocky smarm of Sonic in a character driven by loss. ALSO, the whole "Sonic can't show certain emotions" thing. Let Sonic get sad about stuff. Let him get super angry. LET SONIC FUCKING FEEL THINGS. So sick of ONLY snark in response to every situation. "Oh? What's that? The world has been taken over by my greatest foe, the planet is being ruined and enslaved as we speak, I've been trapped in a small cell for the better part of a year, and I have no Idea if my friends are safe or even alive? Haha! Better crack wise and slowly saunter out of my cell so I can snark at one of the ones responsible for all this!" Seriously, FUCK Sonic Forces. Even beyond what I think they've done wrong WITH the mandates, I miss what they used to do WITHOUT them. Remember the ending of Sonic Battle? Emerl's death and everyone grieving and memorializing him in their own way? Or the end of SA2, where they're all just...talking. Remembering Shadow and honoring his sacrifice, questioning whether their ambitions are even right after seeing how far Gerald was willing to go for his goals and what it would've meant had he succeeded. Sonic having serious doubts about who he is and where he comes from ("created...the ultimate lifeform..."). Could you really see Sonic written with that kind of nuanced emotion nowadays? The comics do really good but still, it's not in the games which is what most of us see. I understand where these mandates come from and why they exist (fucking Penders) but I don't think they're worth the cost. Rather than having these sorts of strict mandates what the series really needs instead is a strict approval process for character writing and writing in general. Instead of blocking a certain story beat or character moment because it "broke the rules", there should instead be an approval process designed to ask/answer the question "Does this work? Does this fit the brand? The character(s), The story? The universe?" This would be a MUCH more effective and less limiting way to avoid having Sonic become about the casts romantic tensions or grieving the loss of his children in a future timeline that gets erased from existence (FUCKING penders). A set of general guidelines? Sure. "Sonic is an action adventure series with a mixed focus on both depending on the entry. Stories should be focused working within this framework with exceptions given to more scrutinized review. EX: If the writing staff wants to include something like horror elements the review panel will go over the specific ideas and decide whether or not they fit the brand." That sort of thing.
  5. I'm torn. On one hand, I don't think Roger's voice was a very good fit for Sonic. Too deep. Sounded too much to me like an adult trying to sound like a teenager, very "How do you do, fellow kids?". If I were casting him for a role in Sonic, I'd have him as Knuckles. If you've heard him as Ezio you'll see he can do deep and mellow really well. On the other hand, I feel bad. This guy did the best he could. Despite what you think of the lines and performances he gave, he was obviously very passionate about the role. Can't judge or hate on him for holding on to the role of a lifetime. I mean, imagine something happens to Martinet and someone new has to step in as Mario (with any luck they've recorded years and years of audio from him just in case). Imagine you're the guy that gets to voice MARIO. I'm not even a voice actor and I'd hold on to that role. Thanks for the sincere effort Roger, hope wherever you go next is fulfilling.
  6. If it was up to me, it'd be a 3d game that went back to basics for Sonic. Look to Sonic 1 to really get a grasp on the fundamentals before building on them and making considerations for it being in 3d. I'd want the focus of the mechanics/controls to be on the momentum/terrain mechanics of the originals, using Sonic 1 as a baseline for what is ABSOLUTELY necessary. So running gradually builds up speed the longer you do it. You'd gain speed on downward slopes and lose it on upward slopes. Rolling would multiply the effects of terrain on your momentum at the cost of control, making you unable to manually increase your speed and requiring you to rely on the terrain to gain momentum. Jumping would cancel your rolling. Your momentum would also carry through your interactions with enemies, items, and level gimmicks like springs. Hitting an enemy or item capsule from high up would bounce you back to the same height and hitting them from high up with a homing attack would carry your horizontal momentum as well, bouncing you up as well as forward. Springs would bounce you at a fixed height but would carry your horizontal momentum (better for chaining momentum based platforming challenges). You'd have a crouch button instead of a spindash button because while I like the Adventure spindash, it does change the way the player fundamentally interacts with rolling (which I think is why there's a pause before it activates in SA2), turning it into something of a precursor to the boost, which you want to be using constantly rather than a tool for interacting with sloped terrain. Giving the player a dedicated crouch button means that rolling can work exactly like it did in the original 2d games with the player being able to start rolling without having to stop to rev up a spindash. I would also include the drop dash and have it work almost exactly the same, except rather than pressing jump twice, which activates the homing attack, you jump and crouch to activate it. Shield abilities would be activated the same way and would likely have a second function via the homing attack, likely affecting your momentum in some way while using it (maybe the electric shield increases your homing attack magnetism so you can attack enemies from farther away or maybe the bubble shield doubles your bounce height from items and enemies, stuff like that). I'd have to design turning to feel natural with the momentum mechanics but I think Adventure 1 kinda nailed that part, having your turning slow you down the more you do it, especially at higher speeds, emphasizing a wider turning radius the faster you go. Not tank physics like the boost games have, just a natural gradient that discourages super sharp turns. Also, there'd need to be a fully player controlled camera designed specifically for this gameplay. I'd have it follow Sonic 1:1, so it would tilt to keep him oriented and center frame at all times to maximize control. Sonic Utopia and lots of fan games since have started doing this to GREAT effect. It makes running through loops and corkscrews in 3d completely doable. You'd need a really robust physics system for this to work but given that we're talking about a 3d game with Sonic's core design philosophy, that's a given anyway. Levels would be 3d takes on the basic philosophy of the likes of Mania and 3 & Knuckles with a big emphasis on exploring to find alternate paths and secrets like the special stage rings scattered throughout the game. Also likely have red rings to unlock cosmetic changes a-la Mario Odyssey for people who might prefer one Look for Sonic over another. Lots of references to the different aesthetics Sonic has had like having different models based on the sprites from Sonic 1, 2 and 3K and the Adventure design and Riders. That sort of thing with a bunch of original looks and costume pieces as well, but I digress. Anyway rather than trying to make additions to Sonic levels to accommodate flying/gliding characters like Tails and Knuckles, I'd do the reverse. Have those characters work like they do in Sonic 3K, having Sonic's basic physics and ruleset with their own abilities and build levels with that in mind. THEN I'd get to work on creating paths in those levels that Sonic could use to access the same areas. Ramps leading up walls Knuckles would have to climb or ramps that launch Sonic (and only Sonic/other speed characters) high enough to reach those areas, Doing things this way would avoid the problem of having levels built for Sonic that Tails and Knuckles can easily break. That's just one way to go about it. I'd want levels that are pretty wide and vertically oriented to fully take advantage of the fact that this would be 3d. Now I talked about having costumes and aesthetic unlocks via the red rings but Honestly I think the "Modern" look works. Now, I say Modern but what I mean is the more specifically Yuji Uekawa inspired looks from the Adventure games, Sonic Shuffle, Heroes, the rush games, and to a slightly lesser extent Shadow (given the grittier, edgier tone of that game ,which is not a good direction to go for obvious reasons). I know there are 2d games with that look like the Advance games but we're talking 3d and specifically I'm trying to avoid the faux Pixar thing the games from Unleashed on started doing. It's not that it looks bad in its own right but it's not the look that comes to mind when I think of Sonic, or Sonic at its peak. The aesthetics from Sonic 1 up to the Rush games, with a few notable exceptions like 06 are what I'd shoot for in terms of acceptability . The big Naoto Oshima and Yuji Uekawa influences taking center stage visually. Now, I'm not a sound or music guy but I think a mix of what Heroes did musically, some of the vocal bits from Cd, and of course Crush 40 for the theme song. Maybe bring back vocal character themes or re-use/remix the established ones like It Doesn't Matter and Believe in Myself. Heroes though for that updated take on Classic style Music for a modern Sonic game, rather than just making new music in the style of the classics like Mania did (though just doing what Mania did musically again is NOT something I'd be opposed to). I'd want a story that connects to the lore established and built on up to Shadow (or Heroes if we retcon Shadow, which I think we should anyway). There's a bit at the end of SA2 where Sonic is wondering whether he IS the ultimate lifeform after all "Created...the ultimate lifeform..." and I'd want to build on stuff like that. Maybe pick up from Eggman's doubt about following in Gerald's footsteps, maybe pick back up from the amnesiac Shadow wondering if he's an android or not which got summarily dropped in Shadow the Hedgehog. Make the chaos emeralds and the ancient civilizations that used them to their own destruction relevant to the plot again. Gimme that Shounen action/adventure vibe the series used to have (the classics had it too, it just went from being OG Dragonball to more like DBZ, whole other topic). Maybe I'd bring back hyper Sonic as something both gameplay AND plot relevant. I'd want Sonic to start feeling like SONIC again. To feel less like a cartoon character like bugs bunny or road runner and more like an anime character like Goku or Lupin III. I'd want to feel hyped about the events of the story again, to feel those excited butterflies as the main theme kicks in for the super/hyper transformation and the final battle. To connect to the characters instead of dreading however they've been butchered THIS time.
  7. Honestly just going the Sonic 3k route of having Tails, Knuckles and whoever else run through the same levels with alternate paths those characters' abilities act as keys for. The problem with Tails and Knuckles in 3d Sonic isn't their controls, it's how the levels are built. It's not that they're built for Sonic, it's that they're built as relatively narrow, singular paths with a single prescribed method of traversal. Putting Tails or Knuckles in Emerald coast or Windy Valley means they can fly/glide over any and all level geometry below them, If levels were wider and taller, built with walls acting as obstacles (and the tops of walls being level paths in their own right) there wouldn't really be a problem. Sonic GT (fan game) does this well. Right from the start level paths are wide and numerous enough (designed with 3 dimensions in mind) that a flying character like Ray the flying squirrel doesn't break the levels so totally that all challenge is ruined. Design your levels with exploration in mind, funneling your paths down at the end to the single level exit so players can optimize speedrunning paths (Sonic's core philosophy) and flying characters won't break your levels, it'll just be a different way to play. There are some nerfs you can apply to a character like Knuckles so he doesn't break levels should this method not play out. Having his glide start falling exponentially faster the longer he goes so he can't just skip the whole level by climbing high up and gliding over everything. You could do something similar with Tails, having him fall exponentially faster after he gets tired from flying puts a cap on how much of the level he can skip by flying over it and makes it so if you DO want to skip parts of the level, you've gotta be smart about it. All this is assuming the game is built using Sonic's foundational momentum/terrain physics design philosophy and not the Unleashed, Colors, Gens, Forces boost philosophy (which works differently at its core to the likes of the Rush games, which is why I specified and is a whole other topic). If you're using the modern boost mechanics, I got nothing. Those games are BUILT for Sonic and characters with his abilities like Shadow and Metal Sonic.
  8. I hadn't considered the angle of Super Sonic just being a deus ex machina that takes away any narrative tension (in my defense, I've mostly just been jazzed by the idea of having a sequel that adheres more to Sonic lore), but he would unless they're smart about using him. I think a good way to do this is the same way the games do it, Sonic needs rings to stay transformed but supplies of rings are limited (this could be shown wordlessly by having the rings in Sonic's bag start vanishing as time passes and he realizes what's going on), when he runs out, the transformation ends. Maybe have Robotnik's giant robot or whatever sustain some damage in the fight, making him more beatable, but Sonic is tired out from the transformation so maybe Tails has to help, or it's a last ditch thing with just Sonic and Robotnik and Sonic barely makes it out, but is rescued by Tails. If we're mirroring canon more in the sequel, they could even do the Sonic 2 ending, where Sonic outruns the explosion on the Death Egg before falling to the planet below where he's caught on the Tornado's wing by Tails. Back to the ring thing though, emphasizing this aspect of them and limiting Sonic's rings (they don't SEEM to be like they are in the games, where they're just floating everywhere) would be a good way to keep it true to it's canon roots without destroying any tension that could be had. Sonic's either got to finish the fight before he runs out or he's got to find out how to win after he runs out.
  9. I like this post. It's been a good long time since I've seen this era of Sonic's lore be the main topic of discussion and it makes me happy. If nothing else here is true, it makes sense no matter who the ultimate lifeform actually is that Shadow's design was based on the mural at the Master Emerald shrine, explaining his resemblance to Sonic. It might or might not have been intentional but it's actually the best explanation there is for why Shadow, completely divorced from Sonic's existence pre-SA2 , would look just like him and have all of his abilities. It's an even cooler connection when you notice that Like Super/Hyper Sonic, Shadow's spines are curved upwards, and that the mural is of Super/Hyper Sonic (I was never clear on which, the aura is yellow but the actual image of Sonic is negative which I took to mean it was a stand in for the flashing colors of hyper).
  10. I'd argue for doing both. Embrace the Sonic multiverse, explicitly canonize everything and use whatever parts of the canon fit the specific thing you're making. So the Classic Sonic in Mania and Forces are from a different "dimension" (the word is universe Sega, come on) but the one in Generations is just a younger Modern Sonic. Both are true, one is an entirely separate entity with some stuff in common between them and the other is the younger version of Modern Sonic. This would solve basically all the series' continuity issues as well and allow them to retcon what they need to and reverse that decision without lasting repercussions. It also allows for stuff like 3d classic games or 2d modern games without there being these weird arguments about what modern or classic should or could be. There IS the downside that if you give them a reason to retcon anything in the series, they'll retcon all the good stuff and leave all the bad and mediocre stuff, but it would fix the issue of "Classic" and "Modern" Sonic being separate. They'd just be Sonic. But I've had this thought for a bit, how this either/or attitude isn't doing the series any favors. Focusing on gameplay alone, I like the classics AND the Adventure games AND the boost games. I like Heroes (and Shadow a little, though that's a whole digression I won't get into). Give me all of them. Stop trying to shove everything in one game, that's unnecessary. Fans of one but not the other need not be left out in the cold either, just make clear your intent to make all the different types of Sonic games, maybe have a dev branch for boost and one for 2d platforming and one for 3d platforming. Like, not that setup exactly, they could organize however, I'm just talking about the approach of making everyone happy by making each type of game independant of one another. You don't need to rebrand the series for each one, spinoffs are a thing that exist and you just need to make it clear that that's what your spinoff is. Mario does this and it works. There's open ended 3d Mario games like 64, Sunshine, and Odyssey, and there's course clear games like the Galaxy games, 3d land, and 3d world. Plus there's the 2d games (though, oddly, there's no open ended 2d Mario, just noticed that). There's all the spinoffs too and they don't really change people's expectations for what Mario can be. I mean, Sonic as a series is more tied to its story than Mario but it's not like the series hasn't changed in the past.
  11. For the gameplay? Momentum and sloped terrain and how they interact. Your movement speed is a gradient that naturally builds as you move unimpeded and you gain momentum going downhill and lose it going uphill. Rolling compounds this effect at the cost of control. You lose the ability to manually gain speed with the d-pad/analog stick but also multiply the terrain's effect of momentum and acceleration. The rest is left to level design. I know the series has diverged from this philosophy for the most part and the fanbase is split on what their favorite style is but that doesn't change the fact that this is what Sonic gameplay is from its foundation. I think that matters because it gives us something to point to as Sonic's identity. Mario didn't have the identity crisis Sonic does despite having even MORE divergent playstyles via spinoffs, partially because of good brand management, and partially because they understood what Mario was all about in the beginning and kept delivering that even in their 3d titles. Things changed for Mario in 3d but it still held on to the core appeal of running and jumping on and into things. For the characters? If I had to, I'd say youthful rebellion. Sonic as a character from the very first game in the series has been a snarky, rebellious teenager standing up to an authoritarian whose egotism and greed are polluting and ruining the world Sonic lives in. I think, directly because of the conflict with Eggman, and Eggman himself being who his is and with the specific threat he poses, the element of a rebellious youth is a through line for all, or most of, the characters. For the world? That's...a little harder to define. In the classics it was this vibrant, surreal twisting, rolling dreamscapes just begging for Sonic to blast through them. In the Adventure games it was the same twisting geometry applied to modern cityscapes and ancient civilizations, plus the occasional scifi setting. I think the uniting elements are the winding roads and the surreal aesthetics but I'm kinda struggling to define this one (mostly because it's been so inconsistent, more so than most elements of the series which is saying something). Uniting these into a single "soul", I'd have to say Sonic's soul is showing off. From the characters to the gameplay to the world and aesthetics, everything about Sonic as a series can be boiled down to having fun and looking cool while doing it. That's my opinion anyway.
  12. This exactly. If nothing else, he REALLY shouldn't have a say in the level design. Super linear block platforming is the literal opposite of Sonic gameplay. Flowing, winding, exploration based design. The former is more Mario esque (which is fine, GREAT even. Literally defined the genre.) and not so much Sonic. That said, Colors didn't have bad level design, just bad SONIC level design. Sega probably has some properties where his talents would be put to better use. Actually, I feel the same way about most of the creatives I have problems with in the series. Like the writers. Good (not great) writing for more comedy focused, dialogue heavy kids cartoons (Like Sonic Boom as the easy example), not so good for the more action heavy, dramatic stakes of the series (not dark or overserious, dramatic. Like how little planet being chained to Sonic's world presents a threat and lets Eggman endanger both, real stakes and a real threat taken seriously by the cast. THAT sort of drama). Plus the comedy is more visual thanks to the expressive, animation friendly designs of the cast. I think a lot of the series' problems in general come down to the decisions made for it not fitting Sonic in general most of the time. Like, I certainly enjoy the pixar look of things nowadays (I will never stop gushing over the opening to Unleashed) but can I really say it's a better fit for Sonic than the more energetic, Uekawa style look of the past? Before I get shouted down, I KNOW both are based on Uekawa's designs, I'm just saying that the overall style has drifted away from the rebellious teen look of the early 3d games (and it's NOT just Adventure I'm talking about, Sonic battle arguably did it better for its cutscenes) and become something softer and more safe. Like the edges have been sanded off. I spend a lot of time trying to think of why I don't connect so strongly with Sonic games nowadays while I can recite the entire scripts of older games by memory alone and I think this is what it boils down to. Even in the games that are well made, where the parts come together to form something enjoyable, a good portion of it doesn't seem very "Sonic" to me. SOME of it definitely is, it's just never holistic in it's "Sonic-ness". It's cramming in the identities of a bunch of past games rather than one of its own and has people who don't understand or don't agree about what that identity IS each working on their own parts seemingly without talking to each other (probably because the staff of Sonic Team shifts around so much). ...or maybe I'm talking out of my ass and am WAY off base. Sorry if some of this is too off topic.
  13. I could see them rebranding their merch as "Trailer Sonic" and marketing it as something ironic and meme-y and have them plan out a later run of the ACTUAL merch for the movie. It's what I'd do in their shoes.
  14. I'm thinking about the possibility that the trailer design was a PR stunt (highly doubt it) and, if it was, how fucking successful it was at getting people talking and thinking about this movie. Like, I've seen redesign after redesign after redesign. I mean, this thread is 430 pages long so far. People are talking SO much about this movie...most of what they're saying is negative but still, word of mouth and curiosity can do a lot for a movie like this. Like, I don't think that's what's happening but if it was, damn. This thing was on colbert. It's been in tons of news outlets. People with..uh...DIFFERENT tastes would likely see it purely on the scale of the discussion being had. Just think about how many shitty trailers of decent movies we'll start to get if this one was a PR stunt.
  15. Well, to be fair, no one accused the people involved in this of knowing what they're doing.
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