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herefor1reason

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  1. I hadn't considered the angle of Super Sonic just being a deus ex machina that takes away any narrative tension (in my defense, I've mostly just been jazzed by the idea of having a sequel that adheres more to Sonic lore), but he would unless they're smart about using him. I think a good way to do this is the same way the games do it, Sonic needs rings to stay transformed but supplies of rings are limited (this could be shown wordlessly by having the rings in Sonic's bag start vanishing as time passes and he realizes what's going on), when he runs out, the transformation ends. Maybe have Robotnik's giant robot or whatever sustain some damage in the fight, making him more beatable, but Sonic is tired out from the transformation so maybe Tails has to help, or it's a last ditch thing with just Sonic and Robotnik and Sonic barely makes it out, but is rescued by Tails. If we're mirroring canon more in the sequel, they could even do the Sonic 2 ending, where Sonic outruns the explosion on the Death Egg before falling to the planet below where he's caught on the Tornado's wing by Tails. Back to the ring thing though, emphasizing this aspect of them and limiting Sonic's rings (they don't SEEM to be like they are in the games, where they're just floating everywhere) would be a good way to keep it true to it's canon roots without destroying any tension that could be had. Sonic's either got to finish the fight before he runs out or he's got to find out how to win after he runs out.
  2. I'd argue for doing both. Embrace the Sonic multiverse, explicitly canonize everything and use whatever parts of the canon fit the specific thing you're making. So the Classic Sonic in Mania and Forces are from a different "dimension" (the word is universe Sega, come on) but the one in Generations is just a younger Modern Sonic. Both are true, one is an entirely separate entity with some stuff in common between them and the other is the younger version of Modern Sonic. This would solve basically all the series' continuity issues as well and allow them to retcon what they need to and reverse that decision without lasting repercussions. It also allows for stuff like 3d classic games or 2d modern games without there being these weird arguments about what modern or classic should or could be. There IS the downside that if you give them a reason to retcon anything in the series, they'll retcon all the good stuff and leave all the bad and mediocre stuff, but it would fix the issue of "Classic" and "Modern" Sonic being separate. They'd just be Sonic. But I've had this thought for a bit, how this either/or attitude isn't doing the series any favors. Focusing on gameplay alone, I like the classics AND the Adventure games AND the boost games. I like Heroes (and Shadow a little, though that's a whole digression I won't get into). Give me all of them. Stop trying to shove everything in one game, that's unnecessary. Fans of one but not the other need not be left out in the cold either, just make clear your intent to make all the different types of Sonic games, maybe have a dev branch for boost and one for 2d platforming and one for 3d platforming. Like, not that setup exactly, they could organize however, I'm just talking about the approach of making everyone happy by making each type of game independant of one another. You don't need to rebrand the series for each one, spinoffs are a thing that exist and you just need to make it clear that that's what your spinoff is. Mario does this and it works. There's open ended 3d Mario games like 64, Sunshine, and Odyssey, and there's course clear games like the Galaxy games, 3d land, and 3d world. Plus there's the 2d games (though, oddly, there's no open ended 2d Mario, just noticed that). There's all the spinoffs too and they don't really change people's expectations for what Mario can be. I mean, Sonic as a series is more tied to its story than Mario but it's not like the series hasn't changed in the past.
  3. For the gameplay? Momentum and sloped terrain and how they interact. Your movement speed is a gradient that naturally builds as you move unimpeded and you gain momentum going downhill and lose it going uphill. Rolling compounds this effect at the cost of control. You lose the ability to manually gain speed with the d-pad/analog stick but also multiply the terrain's effect of momentum and acceleration. The rest is left to level design. I know the series has diverged from this philosophy for the most part and the fanbase is split on what their favorite style is but that doesn't change the fact that this is what Sonic gameplay is from its foundation. I think that matters because it gives us something to point to as Sonic's identity. Mario didn't have the identity crisis Sonic does despite having even MORE divergent playstyles via spinoffs, partially because of good brand management, and partially because they understood what Mario was all about in the beginning and kept delivering that even in their 3d titles. Things changed for Mario in 3d but it still held on to the core appeal of running and jumping on and into things. For the characters? If I had to, I'd say youthful rebellion. Sonic as a character from the very first game in the series has been a snarky, rebellious teenager standing up to an authoritarian whose egotism and greed are polluting and ruining the world Sonic lives in. I think, directly because of the conflict with Eggman, and Eggman himself being who his is and with the specific threat he poses, the element of a rebellious youth is a through line for all, or most of, the characters. For the world? That's...a little harder to define. In the classics it was this vibrant, surreal twisting, rolling dreamscapes just begging for Sonic to blast through them. In the Adventure games it was the same twisting geometry applied to modern cityscapes and ancient civilizations, plus the occasional scifi setting. I think the uniting elements are the winding roads and the surreal aesthetics but I'm kinda struggling to define this one (mostly because it's been so inconsistent, more so than most elements of the series which is saying something). Uniting these into a single "soul", I'd have to say Sonic's soul is showing off. From the characters to the gameplay to the world and aesthetics, everything about Sonic as a series can be boiled down to having fun and looking cool while doing it. That's my opinion anyway.
  4. This exactly. If nothing else, he REALLY shouldn't have a say in the level design. Super linear block platforming is the literal opposite of Sonic gameplay. Flowing, winding, exploration based design. The former is more Mario esque (which is fine, GREAT even. Literally defined the genre.) and not so much Sonic. That said, Colors didn't have bad level design, just bad SONIC level design. Sega probably has some properties where his talents would be put to better use. Actually, I feel the same way about most of the creatives I have problems with in the series. Like the writers. Good (not great) writing for more comedy focused, dialogue heavy kids cartoons (Like Sonic Boom as the easy example), not so good for the more action heavy, dramatic stakes of the series (not dark or overserious, dramatic. Like how little planet being chained to Sonic's world presents a threat and lets Eggman endanger both, real stakes and a real threat taken seriously by the cast. THAT sort of drama). Plus the comedy is more visual thanks to the expressive, animation friendly designs of the cast. I think a lot of the series' problems in general come down to the decisions made for it not fitting Sonic in general most of the time. Like, I certainly enjoy the pixar look of things nowadays (I will never stop gushing over the opening to Unleashed) but can I really say it's a better fit for Sonic than the more energetic, Uekawa style look of the past? Before I get shouted down, I KNOW both are based on Uekawa's designs, I'm just saying that the overall style has drifted away from the rebellious teen look of the early 3d games (and it's NOT just Adventure I'm talking about, Sonic battle arguably did it better for its cutscenes) and become something softer and more safe. Like the edges have been sanded off. I spend a lot of time trying to think of why I don't connect so strongly with Sonic games nowadays while I can recite the entire scripts of older games by memory alone and I think this is what it boils down to. Even in the games that are well made, where the parts come together to form something enjoyable, a good portion of it doesn't seem very "Sonic" to me. SOME of it definitely is, it's just never holistic in it's "Sonic-ness". It's cramming in the identities of a bunch of past games rather than one of its own and has people who don't understand or don't agree about what that identity IS each working on their own parts seemingly without talking to each other (probably because the staff of Sonic Team shifts around so much). ...or maybe I'm talking out of my ass and am WAY off base. Sorry if some of this is too off topic.
  5. I could see them rebranding their merch as "Trailer Sonic" and marketing it as something ironic and meme-y and have them plan out a later run of the ACTUAL merch for the movie. It's what I'd do in their shoes.
  6. I'm thinking about the possibility that the trailer design was a PR stunt (highly doubt it) and, if it was, how fucking successful it was at getting people talking and thinking about this movie. Like, I've seen redesign after redesign after redesign. I mean, this thread is 430 pages long so far. People are talking SO much about this movie...most of what they're saying is negative but still, word of mouth and curiosity can do a lot for a movie like this. Like, I don't think that's what's happening but if it was, damn. This thing was on colbert. It's been in tons of news outlets. People with..uh...DIFFERENT tastes would likely see it purely on the scale of the discussion being had. Just think about how many shitty trailers of decent movies we'll start to get if this one was a PR stunt.
  7. Well, to be fair, no one accused the people involved in this of knowing what they're doing.
  8. Yeah, the fact that, rather than just make a good first impression, they'd do some expensive, convoluted PR scheme really pokes giant holes in the idea that it was planned. I think the main reason I've even been entertaining the Idea is that it's just...WEIRD that they'd decide to change the design so quickly, so easily. Even with the backlash, it doesn't make a ton of sense. Spending more money fixing Sonic's design in this obvious flop is only gonna lose investors more money, better to recoup what they can than try to fix anything. I mean, you could just attribute that to terrible business sense but it's still just...SO weird. I've never seen a movie studio do something like this.
  9. Actually, had a thought. How many shots in the trailer are there where we see any of the actors talking to and looking at Sonic in the same frame? Where they're actually both in the shot at the same time? I can think of one, MAYBE two (both where they're in the truck). If we're entertaining the possibility that this was a fake trailer made as a publicity stunt, wouldn't the fact that changing Sonic's design and animation would have little to no effect on the actor's performances that we've seen mean that drastic changes are less unlikely? Purely hypothetically. I don't honestly think the trailer was faked but I thought it was interesting that there's another thing adding slight credence to the theory.
  10. I've had this thought too. Everything else aside, it's the fact that the decision to change the design was made so quickly that raises my eyebrows. Six months and they're gonna change something like that? With no reason to think they'll be done or that it'll be better or even on par with the current design? Like, everything about this movie SCREAMS executive incompetence and indifference but this is pushing on my suspension of disbelief. Like, these executives might be out of touch but they HAVE made movies with animation and animated character design in them before. Someone's gotta know how long it would take to not only make ANY kind of meaningful change, but changes for the noticeably better. Though occam's razor, they're much more likely just really incompetent and out of touch.
  11. So this is something I've always wondered, when is Sonic battle supposed to take place? After Shadow the hedgehog? Because Shadow still has his memories in that game but he's still going on about his nature as a weapon and is still seemingly hung up on his past. Couldn't be happening before Heroes, that game follows immediately after SA2 (or at least, starts at a point before Shadow is even back as a main cast member, team dark's story opening with him being found in the first place). It's always bugged me, even when I was a kid.
  12. This is, to me, the most interesting Sonic related development in a good while. If this restructure/move was related to the reception of Forces (ESPECIALLY in relation to the reception of Mania), it could wind up being a meaningful change for the Main Sonic series. I don't know what such a change would mean (no one does) but it's the main reason I have any hope for it after Forces. There's also the return of Hiroshi Nishiyama. I don't know what he contributed on an individual level (I know he did some concept art for grinding in SA2) but I know that I really liked the art direction of the era he worked on the series (even Shadow which, while it isn't super great visually, still felt distinctly like the Sonic of that era).
  13. I don't have any specific Ideas on what the next title will be, the only thing we have to go on in that regard is the Adventure remake rumors and those speak for themselves. They either will or they won't. Still, we know some things that can be used to make guesses. Sonic Mania did well both commercially and critically while Forces only really did well commercially (and not even anything mind blowing). We know that "Sonic Team" isn't really a thing anymore (though what that actually means is unclear as of yet). We know of at least one art director from older games has returned (though what that actually means, if anything, is again unclear). Odds are pretty good that they're going to want to distance the next game from Forces, at least to some extent. It's not as widely panned as something like 06 but it looks REALLY bad in comparison to Mania. I don't know how they're going to interpret the success of Mania, if they're going to shoehorn in Classic Sonic for the sake of pandering or if they'll actually take the right lessons (just make a good Sonic game jesus fucking christ) from it. Maybe Nishiyama's return means there'll be a more cohesive art direction for the next game but that's just a wild guess. Personally, I hope the next game IS an Adventure remake (only if they go full Crash and Spyro trilogies and fix up EVERYTHING that could be fixed) but as for what I THINK is gonna happen? It's really up in the air. I'm going back and forth between extreme optimism and pessimism. On the one hand, maybe Mania gave them an Idea of the direction they should be heading. On the other hand, Forces is s pretty good example of how they've utterly ruined good Ideas in the past (Eggman has conquered the world, chaos, shadow, metal sonic, and uh...zavok are seemingly back as enemies, why is so little of that relevant or an outright lie? I could go on about the mishandled premise of Forces but I'll stop here). Do I think an Adventure remake would be the BEST move for them to make? Well that depends on how good a remake it would be. Did they fix Big's gameplay? The camera? Collision? Cutscenes? Signposting for levels? Acting? Voice direction? If we assume they'll do Adventure justice I'd say it might be the best direction for them to go if only because it's a known quantity. Assuming they can get it right it's a relatively safe bet. People already love Adventure. That fondness is less consistent than I remember it being growing up but it DOES still exist. A new game might theoretically wind up better but it also might be as mediocre or worse than Forces. Then again, if they botched an Adventure remake it would tank basically all trust or hope any Adventure holdouts had for the series going forward. Basically any move I can see them making comes with a pretty big risk attached.
  14. I was gonna post more scenes but I'm lacking sleep and my brain kinda stopped working halfway through deciding what to say about the other scenes. I was gonna compare more interactions between Sonic and Eggman like the "You're nothing" scene from Colors compared to something like the first Eggman boss from Adventure. Like, there's a "Joke" in Adventure, "Hey look! It's a giant talking Egg!", but at no point does the game or story make any attempt to draw any attention to it. It's not like Sonic's winking to the camera and going "Eh? did you get it? aren't I clever?". It's less self congratulatory. I was also gonna compare the scene near the end of SA2 where Amy is a hostage with the one from forces right before Sonic sent to the Null Space and compare the interactions there but, again I'm tired and can't quite remember the points I was gonna make. Sorry. That scene from SA2 is the reason I use the word banter though. There's something of a back and forth. "You've turned into a big time villain doctor!" and all of Eggman's threatening and trickery with Tails compared to the friendship speech of Forces. Maybe banter is the wrong word but I'm struggling to think of a word that encapsulates what I'm trying to say. I think this is a HUGE part of it. It's not everything, Sonic's animated behavior contributes a lot to our Idea of the emotions in a scene but I think older writers at least knew when to let/make Sonic stop talking. To let the scene speak for itself.
  15. I've gone into huge diatribes elsewhere about how I'd fix the gameplay and I don't want to do that right now so I'll focus on just fixing the characters. Basic character writing, understand who your characters are. Sonic is completely full of himself. His ego could be said to be both his greatest strength and greatest weakness. His ego doesn't compel him to put others down, it compels him to lift them up (except villains, they're fair game). He's extremely competitive and fun loving. lacks any patience and would rather die than endure extended periods of boredom (see Sonic CD). He's got a mouth on him, constantly snarking at everyone to some extent though towards his friends it's more lighthearted. I mean, it's lighthearted with his enemies too (he knows EXACTLY how cool and capable he is, hence the ego) but it's more...pointed with the likes of Eggman. He's laughing AT Eggman, not with him. I'm using Sonic as the example but it's about the approach that's being used. The current writing has a very shallow understanding of who anyone in the Sonic series is except for Eggman and even HE gets the shaft compared to him pre-06 (where at least there he wasn't treated like team rocket by the cast and story). I think a key to a lot of my problems with how characters are written can be illustrated by how interactions between Sonic and his antagonists are handled. It's just a few seconds, but pay attention to how Sonic and Eggman act in this scene (especially Sonic) and compare it to this Notice anything? Like how different the banter is? They're both cornered by an antagonist and Sonic is basically saying "bring it on, I've got this" in the face of their threats but in SA2, Sonic's banter is BANTER, him and Eggman are speaking as equals. In Forces, "Zavok" SEES himself as Sonic's equal but Sonic doesn't see him that way. He's not even taking him REMOTELY seriously. Ignore the greater context of the respective stories for a second and think about these scenes in Isolation. It's not helped by the fact that in SA2 it feels like there's actually danger in this scene. We KNOW as the audience that Sonic co. are gonna win but why does it not feel that way? Is it because, despite his cockiness, his bluster, he KNOWS Eggman and the Egg golem present a threat? Why is it that, despite the stakes and the danger arguably being higher in in Forces, does it not feel the same or even more intense? Is it because Sonic isn't taking anything seriously and, as a consequence, we as the audience never have a reason to take Zavok Seriously? The thing about Sonic as a character is that, despite his aloof treatment of villains, he actually DOES care about stopping them. He DOES take them seriously to some extent despite his confidence. Having him talk and act completely relaxed in the Zavok scene makes him seem CONFIDENT, but it also makes it seem like he doesn't care, and not in an indifferent, tortured, broken sort of way you might expect from the circumstances described before this scene. No, he doesn't seem to even take the threat remotely seriously. In a pure comedy story, like Sonic Boom, this sort of characterization and behavior might make sense but in a game that's trying to be serious as much as Forces is, it's completely out of character. In SA2, he's not making puns or jokes, he's just undermining his foes with pure, snarky confidence. You can see the difference in how the cast is characterized between the "Adventure era" (Sonic Adventure to Sonic & the Black Knight, though the characterization in the latter wasn't spot on either) and the "Modern era". How in games post Adventure, Tails is still more insecure than Sonic but he's also gained a little self confidence. In Forces, he's a big BALL of self doubt and nothing else. There's no nuance. Where these characters resemble themselves at ALL in Forces (Knuckles the hardened war general?) they're a very simplified, dumbed down version of themselves. They're single character traits rather than rounded characters. Shadow has gone from emotionally complex to overly competent and "cool" (basically what has been frequently done to Batman). There IS some good characterization IN forces. (Amy taking charge makes sense given their circumstances, makes me wonder why knuckles became war general) but it's mostly flanderized versions of the originals. Despite how much I hate the dialogue and characterization in Colors, I can forgive it because it was trying SUPER hard to be explicitly for kids. That's not an excuse for lacking quality but if you're gonna go that route, it's not the worst way to do so. I could go on but I want to impart that the key to this sort of character writing REQUIRES a deep understanding of who your characters are and how they'd actually react to any given situation. Tails might be more cautious than Sonic but he'd join the fray against ANY foe. He's not a coward, he's brave in spite of his fear.
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