StaticMania

The one of the left is fan art btw

Well ok

I meant that it only happened because of this art of the redesign that came out a few days ago -- people are comparing them of course but that doesn't really matter

I saw a quote as to why they changed her and it honestly confuses me. It sounded like the film maker was saying attractive woman can't be strong.

I have noticed a strange trend of desexualizing women in popular fiction. It's just amusing how half the time, the decision was made by a man.

It's just amusing how half the time, the decision was made by a man.

And the decision to make those characters hypersexualized in the first place was made by men 90% of the time, what's your point

Yeah, this isn't desexualising because 'boobs bad', it's because Lola's whole initial conception was based on sexualising the one female character of the LT cast in Space Jam that wasn't Granny. And I'm not talking about her design alone.

@Thigolf My point is, let the women decide how they should look sometimes.

I realise it's  not that simple and opinions differ, regardless of gender. But that's a deeper conversation and I don't have a typewriter.

Designs matter little to me. The important thing here is will she carry over some of her traits from the Looney Tunes show-- namely have her be an actual looney character and not be exempt from the trademark slapstick and/or antics of everyone else (just not to the point of outright dim-wittedness, something more along the lines of Wabbit/New Looney Tunes).

She can still be a strong, competent woman despite that, if it's all in the name of helping LTs pass the Bechdel test.

Even as someone who absolutely thought Lola Bunny was hot as hell when I was a kid and spends half their free time drawing sexy pin-up girls, AND thinks that the idea of having a sexy character design for the sake of sexiness is fine because sex is fun and people should be allowed to enjoy it (see: people complaining about Pyra's design again now that she's been added to Smash lol) - I am baffled by why people care about this at all.

Lola having boobs or not really should not matter at all as to whether you enjoy a family cartoon movie.  Literally the furthest the thought should get is "oh they toned down her body shape, that's a shame for me personally coz I preferred the sexy look coz I like sexy things, but this is primarily a kids property and times have changed".  Nothing worth sending down the arms towards the keyboard about.

To be honest all I keep thinking when I see this art around is that I really don't care for the look of their new team uniforms, the design feels less cool than the simple white look they had in the first movie.

Even though I criticise the thought process behind the change of Lola, I've heard the synopsis and am more concerned by the lack of space in this Space Jam.

Mind you, it's been a long time since I saw the original and if I recall correctly, space wasn't heavily featured in that either.

Space Jam is at its core a commercial and commercials are designed to be as universally marketable as possible. Sexy was 'in' with everybody in the late 90s but it isnt now. Simple as. 

@DanJ86

I always felt they wanted a name that sounded cool next to word "Jam" without blatantly putting "Looney Tunes" on the title as to not damage its marketing push beyond the kids and LT fans, and "Space" was the word picked from the idea jar. Space was relatively hip in the 90s next to dinosaurs after all.

Sure, the villians were aliens, but that's it, and there's not even aliens this time around, so...

Comment from someone who couldn't see the difference at first and hasn't heard a word of this discourse until this status because I'm not interested in the movie...

What bothers me personally about female character design in animation isn't just that token female characters are very often sexualised in a way that male characters aren't. That bothers me, but it's not the main thing. The worst part of it is how female characters are designed to be female in way that male characters are not designed to be male. Especially in the facial area. Females characters often seem to have similarly shaped faces and heads, tending to be more realistic and beautiful, whereas male characters get more extreme and creative. It's like male characters are still the default canvas and female is a character trope. This article read in the Telegraph a few years ago shows what I mean regarding Pixar films:

What immediately sticks out to me about Lola's new design is how goofy her face looks. She looks really, really goofy. And that's great. She looks like a female character, but she's not feminine purely by looking pretty. As I said before, that's what I noticed before the change to her body.

Now there's nothing wrong with sexualised characters, But was it right to change Lola? I dunno. She was already established and wasn't egregiously bad. Male characters can be sexualised too, but it never feels like it's handled the a same way for them or as often for them as it is with female characters. It always seems like the problem is addressed by changing the portrayal of female characters, as though that the only issue. I'd like to see the portrayal of male character changed sometimes. It would be interesting to see the situation flipped with a wide variety of female character designs and more homogenous, hyper sexualised male character appearances. 

And seeing as it was brought up; Smash Bros. Look at the character reps on display for Xenoblade. Shulk is just a regular, physically fit looking anime guy wearing typically anime overdesigned clothes. And he's got his gag outfit where he's in shorts (pants?) and slippers. Arguably the latter is showing him off, but it's not really sexualised. He's just a guy in his underwear. Pyra and Mytha on the other hand are supposedly fully clothed, but show tons of skin with their figure hugging outfits, have windows for their massive boobs and barely have anything covering their bums. It's so disproportionate. 

I dunno what I'm asking for. A more balanced representation, I guess. Dont just dexualise the female characters when you could also get wilder with their animated designs and vary their shapes like male characters. And at the same time, if you're gonna have sexualised female characters, do the same for the guys. It stands out as really strange when guys where outfits as revealing as women's, with attention being brought to how beautiful (read: sexy) they are. And that just shouldn't be the case.

It kinda feels a bit like they compromised the old Lola with the recent attempts to make her fit in the wackier original cast, much in the same way you see composites of era specific characters like Bugs and Daffy. If Lola's personality has a goofier edge to her in this movie while still being identifiable to her earlier on, it would strengthen this.

Otherwise I think it's for the same case as Tawna in Crash Bandicoot 4 or Penders/Bollers era Sally Acorn in Archie Sonic. A 'sexualised' strong woman can be done in theory, but that doesn't mean they mesh all that great in a franchise with goofy looking cartoon animals. Remember how little Lola actually done in the original Space Jam because she was even less humorous and flexible than the LIVE ACTION ACTORS.

@Blue BloodExactly. Crash has the same issue right now where we have tons of really surreal and creative characters....and then the girls. No one likes a character JUST for their gender. Yeah there's the furry fandom but that's kind of a cheat and doesn't prove a character's long term appeal. You don't prove female representation should be a thing if you put ZERO creativity into one besides them being 'girl'.

This was the main issue with Lola originally. She was the token girl but....there wasn't much she added to the universe she was in besides being Bugs' girlfriend. She's wasn't funny, she didn't have a unique shtick, she didn't have a chemistry with everyone else. She was a strong female, but what appeal does that have in a universe where everyone's meant to be FUNNY? She was designed for the primary purpose of being a GIRL first and being a Looney Tunes character dead last.

@E-122-PsiPresenting: Crazy, emo, boss, fat, old and girl!

@Blue Blood Even that one's better since it's at least a cartoonified sultry femme fatale type imp that looks different from the others. Lola is 'gender flipped Bugs'.

I think it's fair to ask for an even playing field in the broader spectrum of characters but I don't feel like every product has to be "balanced" in how it portrays sexuality. I'd like more stories and characters aimed exclusively at people attracted to men in the same vein that people attracted to women get the occasional Xenoblade 2 or Shantae or w/e. There's plenty of stuff like that out there, but mass marketed stuff tends to swing in one direction. 

Not every product has to be balanced. But the range of products is fairly one sided.

I mean, Looney Tunes DID have those sort of blue jokes in the old days, but in fairness, Lola wasn't designed to just be a sexy gag. She was designed to be female representation, that a main character that was a girl could work in the Looney Tunes series. They have to broaden her at least a LITTLE in that regard.

It's like how I don't mind odd sexy gag characters in the Crash series but then despite broadening the female representation they're still making EVERY BLASTED GIRL either a fan service character or a humourless strong woman with zero quirks or surreal defects trademark to the series doesn't work. You wanna make MAIN characters that are female you have to at least partway create them based on the appeal and flexibility most other characters are in the series.

Usually these games are considered "lesser" somehow when compared to other, more established franchises. Also has a bit of the "casual = bad" mindset attached to it too. Mainly from people who don't like the idea of their hobby being seen as mainstream. Or, at least that's my take away from it.

Though then you also have games like Fortnite and CoD where you'll get some of that but also due to things like microtransactions or being oversaturated in the public eye. The microtransactions I get but I've never been one to hate on something just because it shows up more than a few times on my twitter feed or some shit.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItsPopularNowItSucks

Okay, there's the whole "everthing is amongus" thing, but I feel like part of why people do that simply cause they knew it'd piss others off

It's a really exaggerated version of that, yeah.

The usual stuff, and people think it makes them cool somehow.

Really just makes them look silly, but that’s the Internet for ya.

Usually because the fans of that thing tend to be incredibly loud and obnoxious and unaware of how much they annoy others whn they bring it up constantly or spread it into other things and topics when others weren't wanting to talk or think about it.

So yeah, same as anything else. Nothing new, nothing to fuss over either way. People can like what they like and hate what they hate. Both are valid.

They're pretty simple so they're seen as for casuals, and games that don't require a high learning curve are looked down on

If it wasn't just as obnoxious the other way around I wouldn't have even asked.

The difference is that dislike is way more insistent, it really doesn't have a reason to be.

The reason is pretty easy to understand. Those people who dislike it want to just be left alone and not have to see it, but even when they try to avoid it, someone or something insists or bringing it up at every turn and thus that dislike turns into outright hatred and rejection of the idea. It's not too different from the Classic vs. Modern thing happening in the Sonic fandom. One sides gets a lot of attention and parades in the forefront while another wants to be left alone to enjoy their thing but can't because the other one is absolutely everywhere unless they just cut themselves off entirely and that starts a grudge that will grow over time.  (And that's not even mentioning the Adventure era fans who feel neglected by both entirely)

It's pretty equal between the two, though. People just get more sensitive about others disliking things insistently even though it's not much different. That's when you get people who act like they're automatically right for being "positive" and that the "negative" crowd has to conform to their ways or basically shut up and not say anything. Forced and toxic positivity, basically, which is pretty unfair and wrong, but no one ever focuses on those cases happening or think it isn' t happening cause they don't see it.

If people are allowed to like something strongly and loudly, others are allowed to reject and dislike it just as strongly and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. People are going to feel however they feel and you can't change that and shouldn't try to. Let them talk, let them feel, let them fight. They'll get it out of their system eventually until both sides find something else to like and dislike all over again.

As for my personal opinion, I think Among Us and Fall Guys are neat little idea that make for adorably hilarious VTuber videos and I can't hate them for that. You haven't lived until you see a pink-haired catgirl get so mad from losing to you that she wants to bang your mom out of spite.

Sir this is a wendys

Because according to them, anything that is/was popular is automatically bad. This mindset was especially big during Fortnite's heyday, so much so that even to this day you can find heaps of "Fortnite bad, Minecraft good" memes on places like Reddit.

Hype backlash is a hell of a drug

The hell?

All Stars Racing Transformed gave Shadow a very happy face. As well as a very sad face.

SA2? He’s smiled at least two times there...

He was evil there, every anime fan knows that once an anti-hero stops being evil, they stop smiling forever.

He smiled in Heroes too when he and Team Sonic are about to fight.

I was about to bring up the Forces one, lmao. It's so bizarre side by side with the restrictions IDW has to deal with.

Can't believe Sonic Team has been committing this crime since 2001 and has not been brought to justice yet

- "But SMB2 USA is a reskin of Doki Doki Panic"

Ignoring that SMB2 JPN is a reskin level pack for SMB1

I do like that, as luck would have it, our SMB2 also gave Luigi similar differentiation from Mario.

And his look, needs the long face and tall(er) legs too.

From a story perspective, I kinda like the pacing of SMB1 to 2 to 3 in the west better as well.

Japan's story: "Bowser does essentially the same plan twice in a row, then ups his game by getting his kids involved."

English story: "Bowser is defeated, then Mario fights a different villain entirely, before Bowser triumphantly returns after a brief absence." 

People get too hung up on the particulars of that reskin like it's some scandalous thing. To SMB2 USA credit it has a ton of influence on the franchise going forward.

I think SMB2 USA is my favorite 2D Mario game personally, so I'm happy we got that as I'm not a very big fan of the Lost Levels in general. It's always weird to me when people act like it's not a real Mario game, and although I think that opinion has died down in recent years, I still see it from time to time. It's a fun game and introduced a lot to the Mario series, and not to mention a lot of the people that designed that game were either apart of the original Mario team or went on to design levels for future Mario titles. It's easily more of a Mario title than even the actual sequel to The Legend of Zelda on NES is, and I like Zelda II, but those two games have even less in common than Mario 1 and Mario 2 in the USA. 

To me SMB2 USA is the true Mario Bros 2, while Lost Levels is SMB1 & Knuckles. Meme aside, I'm serious about that (they have been released as parts of the same game in some occasions too, such as in Super Mario Bros Deluxe).

It's true that Dokidoki Panic also exists, but SMB2 USA became legacy to the Mario franchise. It's like trying to dismiss Starfox Adventure because it's a Dinosaur Planet reskin, the only difference is that Dokidoki Panic was released while Dinosaur Planet didn't. Wonder Boy and Adventure Island are two separated franchises despite being originated by essentially the same game, it's not like one of the two series is "not a true series" just because of the first game's mess.

Please, "Did you know that Mario 2 is actually Doki Doki Panic" is old news, the new hotness is "Doki Doki Panic started development as a tech demo for potential new Mario game but was turned into Doki Doki Panic following a licensing deal, thus Mario 2 was Mario 2 all along".

Lost Levels is underrated though.  The level design was way more adventorous and has more in common with modern Mario level design than Mario 1 did in terms of variety.  Unfortunately it just also has a few levels with utterly insanely obnoxious mean tricks too.  It really was built for players who had mastered Mario 1 and absolutely no-one else.

Super Mario for Super Players as it's called.

This was back when people didn't know how to go about making video game sequels it was either "do the exact same thing" like Lost Levels or be completely different in every way like Zelda II, SMB2 USA actually manages to find a decent middle ground 

Nice!

recommend mario odyssey if you like 3d platformers

(and if you like 2d/genesis sonic, sonic mania obviously)

What games did you get for it?

I got it at launch, and started with Shovel Knight Collection & Breath of the Wild.

I only have Smash atm...

Mario Maker 2's coming in a few days.

Are you going to do the Splatoon 2 thing?

What splatoon thing?

I'm...not getting the game if that's what you mean.

They're redoing a Splatfest and Demo

Here's a quote

Quote

Are you or a friend interested in Splatoon 2? The Splatoon 2 Special Demo 2020 event is on the way! Players with the full game or the demo will be able to play Turf War, Ranked Battle, Salmon Run, and more together beginning 4/29 at 11pm PT, until 5/6 at 6:59am PT.
In addition, the Splatoon 2 game will be available at a discounted price on Nintendo eShop during the duration of the Special Demo, and a free 7-day trial of Nintendo Switch Online will also be available so you can play online with friends!

Nah, I'm not really into that.

ummm...okay I'm all for longer, more emphasized spines, but this is just.... wow.

Now make Ken Penders version of Knuckles with the flimsy limbs.

Geeze man, that might as well just be Knuckles lol

Now that's what I call Hentai Quills. The eyes make him look all the more discomfortable with this. 

I whip my hair. back and forth... 

it was either that or a Shantae pun. 

Hate to disagree, but I prefer the 2D thank you.

If he went Super then that would basically be Super Saiyan 3.

Fun fact: this is what people who think modern Sonic's quills are too long actually see when they look at him.

ah so people are actually modding modernhentaiquillsonic into the games now

This has been my thought as well. I've never been happy with the milquetoast Pixar sheen he's had since Unleashed. They really ought to reinvigorate the brand with a new aesthetic and for god's sake, give this hog some new shoes! I spent a bit too much time gawking at demx's Sonic art on Twitter and dreaming that SEGA would adapt the character into a similar direction. But I suppose the dream died in 2006.

I like the current model fine, personally. I just think the games' action sequences need to be more interesting to take better advantage of the design. There's definitely moments here and there, like the QTE sections in Forces' Death Egg but it does feel pretty limited.

It's just been stagnant is all...

I’m fine with the current design, but I won’t complain if they find a way to top it.

I am also pretty tired of his current model. I really want to see Sonic animated more fluidly ingame as well.

i think it could use an update. there isn't anything wrong with the modern design exactly, but i still feel like they don't have a great solution for how to make his spikes look good in 3d, and they kind of end up blurring together/being hidden from some common angles, and you just get a blobby silhouette instead of his iconic spikiness.

^

One day...

I'm glad Goku was the example used for that, it looks really nice.

I want a mixture of the modern sonic design and and the classic design and maybe some adventure too. Maybe even something along the movie design(not the old one).

I play Smash loads and had no idea that SDing in Smash takes away 2 stocks lol

I usually prefer to play timed matches, which are the default setting, so yeah

It takes two?????

In timed matches it's -2 to your score with an option to change it...

Oh duh, I remember that setting now, just never felt compelled to touch it.

Now I just gotta find out what SD stands for!! 😃

SD the next name of Nintendo’s New Gameboy.  

SD is self destruct right

Yeah...

I thought it meant Super Dead

I thought it meant Smash Dbrothers

eh, you typically don't stand still long enough in sonic for level specific idle animations to be worth it. they could if they want, but it's not exactly a high priority.

I guess that's generally why Sonic stands practically motionless with his arms at his sides in every game...

There's no need for anything else, that's sad.

I think a 3d version of Advance idle animation would be appropriate 

Its not a necessity, but it's certainly something that gives Sonic his identity. Its why his idle animations are so unique to begin with. 

There are many more things time could be better spent on than separate idle animations for different levels. Although I would be okay if he had more of a battle pose during bosses.

I liked how it was in SA2 where he cycled through a few poses if you kept him still in the Chao garden, occasionally saying lines like "better get going!". I think that would be more doable than per stage. Interestingly SA1 did have some stage specific lines, there's a mod that turns it into a button press instead of waiting for them.

There is?

Well hopefully someone does that for SA2 and Heroes...I actually wanted to do a video on that.

But it'd just be very tedious.

If you meant the stage specific lines there is video.

I don't think how well a game with that length would be received nowadays, considering people already had their problems with other recent 3D Sonic games that are already on the short side.

If it was priced accordingly and was really good, I wouldn't mind at all.

Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations were about that length, if a bit longer once you clear all missions or if you're going for all collectibles. I think it's very doable and can help in the production process, so they can focus on quality over quantity.

In theory. In practice, they have trouble managing even that. 

There are a couple of games like this and they've all caught(rightful, imo) flack for being too short. It's just not a feasible angle for a 60-70 dollar release. If they folded and made it $30-$40 then I would be more enthusiastic 

I mean, it should be priced accordingly.

It's not like these games are of notable scope.

Probably low considering how the budget multiplies as you translate that sort of scope of level size/number of different environments into 3D, both in terms of difficulty of design and visual assets etc.  Considering most modern Sonic games are only an hour or so long once you strip out the padding, you're essentially asking for a full game but without any padding... and the padding isn't the part that is expensive to make, that's the part where they try to justify to the player how expensive to make all the non-padding stuff was.

Like... for example, maybe it could be done at a budget price if you're okay with there being say, 5 zones with 4 acts each instead of 10 zones with 2 acts each.

As another example, if Sonic Colours had only had two full-length acts per zone, no gimmicky acts, you might end up with a game that takes about half as long to complete, but would only reduce the price by 20% or so, since making those main levels is the most expensive part.  Padding out the game with gimmicky acts that utilise the same environments a second or third time over to lengthen it costs a fraction of the production budget in comparison.

I'm not asking for another Unleashed here...

Slower paced Adventure or even Nex Gen style levels that peak at around mid Heroes length.

But this is cutting out mandatory padding, let's say you could add one optional character in...Amy, Shadow, or Blaze. Characters who are already similar to Sonic.

Ideally you have you repeatability with Sonic's levels and another character who has their own paths and maybe one or two levels of their own.

Or is that too much?

For a budget price, unfortunately it is.  Sonic games are costly to produce due to the amount of terrain they have to design even for an Adventure/2006 style level.  It's telling that both those games only have 9-11 stages that are re-used for multiple characters to pad out the game.  Adding another character that uses the exact same stage designs as Sonic wouldn't be too tall an order, but even the base content with Sonic would be hard to produce at a budget price.  Maybe with surreal, Lost World-esque visuals it could be done.

I think Sonic Adventure's approach was the best one overall, the issue is that some of the playstyles were just too divergent either in terms of objective of control scheme.

I also didn't mind SA2's method of taking the same assets from some levels and reconfiguring the entire level design for different characters rather than SA1's all characters sharing the same maps with minor alterations. 

I think either can work so long as the other characters playstyles and objectives aren't much more different that they feel like a different game entirely.

Google it and try to wade through the Naruto stuff right

Not the Sakura I had in mind, but I do remember her.

A shame I only watched one episode before the internet became essential. Might do some catching up now.

https://www.deviantart.com/esbelle/art/Amy-Rose-and-Sakura-Kinomoto-712270419

I always like to imagine Amy wearing a magical "shojo" outfit in her super form since I feel it compliments Sonic drawing from the "shonen" side of the reference pool. Similarly I see Super Tails grow an extra pair of tails as influenced by the Kitsune spirits. 

Well...it's not wrong.

Cardcaptor Sakura fucking rules

Gotta be honest, thought you were talking about Sakura from Naruto.

I have no idea who this is...

It is a Sakura, all that matters.

IT REMOVES THE SUPRISE, DON'T SPOIL ENDGAME YOU HACK!

honestly personally spoilers can actually hook me up on something more than before i knew it, plot twists, major reveals, to me that only adds to the reasons to consume this product. Cuz even if you know what the spoiler is, you might not end up knowing the context which could make a huge difference.

It makes the car go faster!

You know, floating around in my head I've thought of an expirement for a show: One where the show team just tells the whole story (that they written out so far) to the public, before actually making it. Like adapting a book to motion picture. The audience can have their say, but I also don't think the world is ready for a media series thats entirely dictated by it's fandom. Especially when it hasn't even published it's first episode/novel.

 To comphesate, the audience will have no affect on changing the script unless it's majority vote (no vocal minorities) or the dev team reads something they think could be better, but only when it's early in production.

If anyone spoils the last chapter of One Piece for me a few years from now after already following the series for many years already, I'd be mad af because something like that can't be redone

@Ferno that's how you'd scar me for life

Depends on the spoiler itself. If it’s a important narrative point that will effect the entirety of the plot, I’d rather learn about it through watching/playing myself vs just reading about it on Twitter and just waiting for it to show up. Like “Darth Vader is Luke’s father” back in the day probably wouldn’t have been as exciting a reveal to many within audiences first seeing if some nerd just blurted it out before the movie started. 

if it’s a spoiler about like a sword that’s in the game, or a song that’s used in a movie, eh that’s fine with me. It all depends on if there’s some kind of surprise buildup for me mostly. I don’t care much for TLOU, so had no problem reading spoilers about the game.

That being said we do kinda fetishize the notion of spoiler culture, and it’s gotten to a point where it’s been intrinsically tied to hype culture, and this to be something companies like Disney take advantage of especially in this age of FOMO.

Enormous opportunity for the series with Sonic Prime, Sonic the Movie 2, and probably Sonic 30 all coming out in the same year. Could be the biggest year for the series since Sega went 3rd party.

Don't put that bad vibe on the year.

how many years of sonic have we had now?

Remember when SoA called 2014 the Year of Sonic

remember when Naka called 2003 the year of sonic

But we just had the Year of the hog in 2019! 🙃

@Fernothe year heroes came out? he was right

I think I remember that he called it that because with Heroes and Sonic X coming out that year, he believed the series was gonna get a stronger foothold in Japan

The only time it really got meta in the actual games was the Sanic shirt for Forces, which was pointless free DLC that you could happily avoid. That's... really it.

I don't know. Between the Pontraff-written games, the Sonic social media handles, and the Boom TV show, the series has definitely shown far more self-awareness to poke fun at itself and its history over the past decade. Being merely self-aware may not be outright meta-commentary, but the series has definitely been edging towards that territory.

I don't think the Pontaff writing's good, but I wouldn't call it meta outside of like... the 'generations' joke in Forces, maybe. Likewise, the Social Media's job is basically to be meta; even Nintendo's been doing that kind of thing now. That and the social media doesn't really impact the games, so I just let them do their thing; the self-deprecation hasn't been a thing for like, two years now anyway. 

Boom, definitely; but that thing's dead and I forgot about it lmao 

There was meta jokes in TSR right? I mean, we've all forgotten about that game but I'm sure we got some kind of nudge now and then.

Blaze and Silver questioning how they received invitations (in the future and in another dimension) are not really meta, it's just awareness.

Those would be the only examples.

There's Lego Dimensions too with the & Knuckles, 06 Sucks, Omochao's annoying, Tails Doll is scary, Ow The Edge using guns, the CNZ Barrel, Big's Fishing Adventure 4 etc.

It’s just with the social media stuff, the tv show and I guess LEGO sonic. With mainline games since they’ve acknowledged that a loud majority hated it the writing and folks kept saying it’s a cartoon hedgehog they decided to go for a more comedic approach so there’s nothing really “meta” in game.

It would still be the industry pleasuring themselves live under the guise of it being an awards show for the most Oscar Bait games of the year, but at least it wouldn't be that but the real reason they do it is to sell you shit

I honestly don't think so. It's too early to tell obviously, but if we get to the end of 2021 and have one game sweep awards for a third year in a row (Red Dead II last year, The Last of Us II this year) then I'd say definitely not. Who wants to watch an awards show if only a few games are actually gonna win?

There's that and just how fast they get through these categories...

It just doesn't seem that special as a yearly thing, which could help a game not sweep awards, if it really mattered.

There's Golden Joystick Awards that's pretty much a lower-budget TGA without world premieres. Nobody gives a crap about that ceremony but the companies because there's nothing that'd entice your average person to watch it. So no, it'd have no substance.

Quote

and have one game sweep awards for a third year in a row (Red Dead II last year, The Last of Us II this year)

Red Dead was 2018, and even then it didn't get the "main" award, which went to God of War. 2019 was pretty varied in terms of awards actually, with the biggest amount of the awards going to Disco Elysium - 4 to be specific. People did expect Death Stranding to take a lot of the awards and it had the most nominations I guess, but it still wasn't an outright sweep.

I feel like there's enough independent content creators out there to organize a show that might actually recognize the most unique games of the year but I could see if nobody wants to put that kind of effort in.

Feels like 9/10 of the show is game announcements and 1/10 is actual awards. I'd wager they just want to be their own little E3 under the guise of an awards show.

When I think of a fan generated award show, I think of Crunchyroll's anime awards.

The story is really straightforward. Sure, there is nice bits of writing, but the story is really nothing to write home about.

What gets me are those who overblow Shadow's story in 06.

That one isn't even saved by its presentation and it has the same problem as Sonic's werehog transformation where there's no struggle or anything in refusing Mephiles' offer

To be quite honest, we seem to value story way too much, when it's better served as a springboard into fun levels and character moments.

I'd argue the opposite honestly. It was never valued enough, to the point where it just arguably got progressively worse over the last decade in this blind attempt at simplifying the series.

No Sonic story is worth writing home about when compared to the medium at large. But then again, not many games in this medium ever are. Even standouts like the LoU or something aren't exactly monumental when it comes to stories in general. With that all being said though, it can't be overstated how much a simply good story can resonate with a player and tie them to the game at large. How much a great one can even inspire people. I feel like that drive has been flat out lost in recent Sonic games.

People often look up to Unleashed because it was just a decent story that tied the game together. It was nothing fancy. Nothing overly dark like what we had before it and nothing overly meta or simplistic like what we've gotten since. It had a balance that, by this series standards, was pretty damn good. It isn't the best this industry has to offer and only someone who has never played anything beyond this franchise would even imply that but it isn't bad.

Let's simply keep perspective here and work from that. Learn to stand up again before we walk instead of sitting on our bums and writing off the few examples of progress the series ever put forth. Critique? Absolutely. Learn so that we can move to greater things. Stop trying? Well, they already tried that.

Sorry to rant a bit here but I see arguments like this and I'm instantly brought back to the time around Color's release where this whole decade long dry run started. Only this time, there really isn't anywhere lower for the bar to drop *knock on wood*.

All I want is a story that ties itself to the game. Even the stupidest stories, like SA2, can still be compelling in how it's used to carry the gameplay.

What I specifically mean is that fans value the stories over the game they're meant to service, like the story is a separate thing.
And if I may theorise, it feels like this has been because the only Sonic content we've been getting are the comics, where the story takes centrestage. With all that happens in the comics, Sonic fans are taking that discussion back to the games where the story doesn't serve that same priority or purpose.

If that makes sense...?

I see what you mean but I also can't say that I really see that as a bad thing. Things like the IDW comics represent a real breath of fresh air for anyone who's only been experiencing Sonic stories through the recent games. It's only natural for people to want the good they see in them reflected in the medium they're most concerned with. Hell, I'm still in the camp that is pulling for Sega to bring Ian on for the main games.

Though, I do think that it's great for a person's main connection to this series being through the characters, settings, stories, ect. For a while, the series put a lot of effort into that stuff, even if a lot of it ended up being flawed. To me, it's no different from people enjoying the series mostly for the music. The games can and have catered to all of these groups before as, at the end of the day, they're all different aspects worked on by different talents within Sega and ST.

I guess my overall argument there is that while a game's story should, first and foremost, serve the game level-by-level; not everything in a cutscene needs to tie back into the levels specifically. There's a balance to be had there and I think only ever having a narrative that ties directly into gameplay is rather limiting.

To give an example from Kid Icarus Uprising because I'm never going to pass on the chance to talk about Kid Icarus Uprising (did I mention I love Kid Icarus Uprising), there is no reason the player needs to know that Pit can't read. There is no gameplay system that takes that into account. Though, it's a funny trait that adds to Pit's character and has become an enduring joke past the game. That's only one example of this from the game and I'd honestly love to see this series start doing things like that as well.

Building up a likeable character can also add to the player caring about what happens to them in a level. Which leads to greater impacts from story beats, stronger connections to the music being played, better memorization of the actual level environment, ect. ect. That coexistence, to me, is what can often excel a simply fun game to an amazing one.

I just want a story like Black Knight again. Nothing has topped that.

Using Sonic's eyelids for emotion isn't inherently a bad thing. They rely on it too much in the games, but it actually works for the example you posted. 

I'm not really highlighting it as an issue, but it doesn't really work for me.

big panda's edit shows why they need a solid grasp of using both; those are two different expressions for communicating two different moods

It looks like both eyelids should be down.

With just one down, it's the same feeling I got from that Forces scene. Except, not intentional.

I do wonder if there was a way to take the rigs in his eyelids and apply it to his eyebrows to make them raise and lower the same way the lids open and closem, then see how it affects him in cutscenes (that are ingame).

But for something easier and more plausible, just remove the eyelids from his model altogether to get the point across. He'd probably look just like a fish, or the characters on Family Guy that rarely ever blink.

I'd say so.  The line is fuzzy but the human brain can decide firmly if something looks "off" or not.  In a more traditional sense, intent is important.  If Sonic's special stage model in Sonic Mania had the same proportions as Sonic Riders Sonic, he'd be arguably off-model compared to what he is "meant" to look like (Classic Sonic proportions).  Naturally one could argue that Riders Sonic is off-model compared to Sonic's typical look at the time, but the context of Riders having a different art style that is applied to all characters holds it up via context.

And... then there's also the fact that characters can become intentionally off-model during animation if it creates for an appealing visual in the moment, particularly by games that use model deformation during movement to intimate the smears and squash and stretch of 2D animation.

Off-model means inaccurate or incorrectly portrayed relative to the standard. Characters usually have standardised designs and references to show how they're supposed to look from different angles (along work various other details like their colours, size, facial expressions, movements etc etc). For example, look at Knuckles in the 3DS Boom games in this video from 7 minutes. All 3D models, but his 3D model is off-model giving him a very different looking face to any of his other appearances. It doesn't even match up to how he's presented in the pre-rendered cutscenes elsewhere in the game. Or to take it even further, look at the character models in Chronicles. Sonic, Knuckles and Shadow are all missing spikes. And in Sonic R where Knuckles' shoes are the wrong colours in-game. They're off-model.

The "model" part of the term "off-model" doesn't mean "3D model". 

proceed with caution

Not all 3D model's will be built the same, even if they're inspired by the same character sheet...

Though I'm especially wondering simply because of 3D animation and how expressions are baked into a model or because they have to make a new model for specific alterations.

From project to project, yeah most definitely for the reasons both Jez and Blue stated. Though, say within a given episode or something, now that's a bit more rare to see.

Sometimes a model can break when an animator tries to pull off movement that's outside its rigging but that's usually a controlled instance (and is usually done because that movement then looks better/ more natural). But yeah, if it's the same model being used, from what I've seen, it is pretty rare for it to be "off model" in the traditional sense.

There's a degree of subjectivity involved. I think that what JezMM said is pretty much the point; if it looks weird, it's probably off-model. There's the way that something is supposed to look and the way that it actually looks.  If two models of different fidelity, by different artists or created for different purposes are compared, they can look weird when compared to each other even ton they're gone on their own in their intended contexts.

Do you play the Ace Attorney games at all? There's an interesting case there in the newer, 3D games. The games use subtly different models for forward-facing moments (usually in the investigation and testimony portions) and the bench views in court. This is literally a case of the developers creating entirely separate 3D models for different camera angles and animations. The forward facing models look wrong when viewed from the bench angles. They're on model for some angles, and off for others.

Another fun example is the statue room in Generations. Aa soon as you rotate the status (Classic Sonic being a great example), the models look really odd. They're posed in impossible ways, but look perfectly fine from their intended angles.

@Supah Berry Well, it was fun having the MLB player glitches blocked out of my memory up until today.

Now if only I can tell my body to stop shivering with revulsion, that would be swell.

I thought that was an Iizuka thing

I'm in confusion because I thought I seen it at least somewhere...and why.

Maybe it was just incorrect.

From what I heard, two worlds was always a thing with Naka, he just never told the audience about it.

It is just a development thing to determine what locations they're fitting into the game, anyway.

I like to think that there's a reason Naka never told us about it

Because it's confusing :V

It just determines whether the setting is something like Adventure or something like Heroes. It's not a lore thing, never was.

Was...unnecessary development detail and if they were gonna mention it at all, should've also mentioned that little tidbit?

Not clarifying a statement is something Iizuka does best.

It's always been Green Grove.

It was Green Hills Zone.

You're going to call the attention of the men in black if you keep this up.

@Tara

Someone will take the shot for me asking the real questions.

But it won't be me.

Jingilator, this is a family server please delete this.

Eh. It's fun to talk to people who feel the same way as you.

If you're the only one to think something, there's only so much you can do with that opinion.

That's not what I meant.

What sort of opinions do you mean, then?

The "need" for someone to share the same opinion.

Like it matters if they do.

"Thank god someone else agrees with me on this."

I can say this from experience: it's to not feel like a mindless idiot when someone calls you out for having said opinion, then other people go against you and call you out for the same reason, to make you feel even more undeservingly stupid. it's just how things go on the internet, I was able absorb the heat, but it still gets to me to this day.

They can't face the fact they their opinions are not in fact fact, so it's their opinion to check the facts of opinions that fit their opinion to reinforce their opinion as fact, when it is still only an opinionated opinion as a matter of fact, but that's my opinion

It's fun to find people who we have something in common with.

Though they are those who take it too far.

tbh after that it just looks kind of ridiculous

Final Fantasy ain't afraid of shit.

Fast and furious would like to introduce itself.

And those 2 series are to be respected.

Some franchises can't even count to three

And most franchises faulter at the fourth entry cause four means death

And Mario Kart and Windows are afraid of non numbered sequels after six

Mortal Kombat and Soul Calibur want a word with you 

Resident Evil has just merged numbers with their names after 6.

But gliding is Knuckles` thing...

So Boom Tails?

Seems like Boom Tails from the 3DS games is basically the middle ground...or something like the tanooki leaf I dunno.

Blasphemy

They'll probably have to seriously nerf his mobility in some way. I'd probably let him focus on verticality and just kneecap his horizontal movement. Knuckles has that covered.

If he has his own stages sure but if they're gonna share stages - this is a good way for him to not break stages

3D Sonic doesn't do vertical stages that much and traversing horizontal stages is more important

@Kuzu You could probably design the two to be more distinct, like how in Mania you have Knuckles' gliding and Ray's gliding.

Personally I just had an idea of giving him his hover from SA2 (hubworld) and Heroes (where he merely stays airborne at a set altitude), but you could have him switch from the hover to a glide move. The main idea visually is that it's Tails' "top speed" animation; but when he's actually airborne:

The difference I would design between this hypothetical "glide" is that in contrast to Knuckles' glide, you drop faster and it leaves you open to attack; and in contrast to Ray's glide, you can't re-curl or control it to "fly" up and down like he can.

But its perks it would have is that vs. Knuckles' glide, you move faster and can seamlessly transition into your running speed once you hit the ground; and vs. Ray's glide, you can "tilt" Tails forwards/backwards to change the speed you have when you hit the ground-- (pull back to "drag"/stay in the air longer, push forward to hit the ground sooner). Ray can kinda do this too but it's harder for him since his glide is supposed to keep him up in the air.

Some extra "maybe" stuff--Tails being able to perform his tail swipe attack during the glide at least once, where it works as both an attack that can deflect projectiles, and a tiny hop that gives him a bit of extra vertical height. Also, a "Mario Kart start" element to him landing where if you connect to the ground at just the right angle, you get another small perk. Unsure what though, maybe some brief faster acceleration, or a small window of invincibility like with Sonic's insta-shield.

Anyway, just rambling ideas. Eh.

I think the score has some good standout tracks, but a lot of it does blur together otherwise because of how the tracks were added to the show. I just think it's a shame Faulconer scrubbed the credits off the music because he didn't compose very much of it.

Pikkon's theme for me.

When the piano starts playing, that's your ass.

Faulconer's team seemed to compose music two ways: standalone pieces like character themes (which were good to downright amazing) and then pieces that punctuated whatever was happening on screen (like cartoons like Tiny Toons/Animaniacs or Fairly Oddparents, or more recent cutscenes in Sonic games), which are inoffensive at best, absolutely ear-grating at worst.

Well a lot of people remember the Perfect Cell theme and the SS3 theme meanwhile I really liked these 2 Gohan tracks.

The second in particular sticks in my mind, a great track by Mike Smith.

Double post

Sonic's boost is super problematic for me because it lets you just plow over enemies with almost no risk. They're basically just stage decorations. The only hazards and spikes and bottomless pits.

And since enemies only seem to be capable of attacking Sonic when he's moving slow, there's no reason to ever not just boost past them.

Either the boost needs to be nerfed or enemy design needs to get a lot more creative. How do you open Sonic up to attack or consequence at those speeds? Enemies armed with bumpers, springs, and spikes?

yeah a lot of fan games are a little too fast to say "fuck limits, go wild" without considering that some limits might've been there for good reason. it's understandable, given how restrictive the official games have become, but overcorrecting can be just as bad. hardly seems worth taking the time to design an engaging, fluid, dense level if you're going to let players rocket into the sky at mach 1 and skip over it all.

Things like this makes you realize that Sonic Team aren't as lazy or uncreative as people say they are. The things they do have a deliberate purpose. 

Quote

Things like this makes you realize that Sonic Team aren't as lazy or uncreative as people say they are. 

i wouldn't go quite that far

I would. Funny thing about growing older is that you realize that you didn't know shit about how game development works when you were younger when you were making those essays about how much ST suck.

I'm not going to say ST are these perfect angels who dindu nuthin, but this is shit that goes way beyond what anyone here really understands beyond what is in the end product. We don't know shit about the development process or what their ideas were, or the deadlines, or resources, etc etc.

I mean those already in the industry already have that mindset to limit stuff like that, so their goal then is just to create a fine line for not making things too good it destroys levels or so limited it becomes unfun.

A lot of people already agree that the parkour system in Lost World would've been way better if it was just much less rigid and more fluid.