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  1. I had the same feeling when I replayed it not too long ago. SA1 is one of my favorites in the series but upon reflection the game was extremely rough around the edges. The sonic gameplay contained a lot of good ideas but the actual process of handling sonic through levels was such an unstable one that the heavy automation present in the game was a necessity. As much as I love the game for what it tried to be, I have to admit it was not a proper foundation for a great 3D sonic game. I think many of us love it because Sonic controlled relatively smoothly but his controls fought against the level design in many cases. Its no wonder SA2 took the more narrow approach it did, although that was likely for the worse gameplay experience overall. I think a better foundation for 3D sonic can be built than Adventure 1 but I still love it for its many good ideas and homages to my favorite time in gaming history.
  2. I'm not agreeing with you at all. I do not think that "a game with sonic in it" is an adequate definition for a sonic game at all; even super smash bros has sonic in it and that's clearly not a sonic game. The mario and sonic Olympics stars sonic and his friends....and I dont think that qualifies as a true sonic game. Even sonic boom rise of lyrics could easily fit your technical definition of "sonic game" and then some...but I dont really think it is a true sonic game despite sharing core characters and surface elements of the series.... I'm using this argument as an example to show how your definition is weak. If all we needed was to have the character in it, then any number of games could be considered "sonic games" while not really showcasing anything unique or distinct about the series. But you dont seem to understand this or even want to. This isnt going anywhere, so I'll get off the train here.
  3. This is true. And in general what i used was probably a lazy description because there are in fact many things common to both early and throughout sonic's history. I think people use that description because the tone in SA2 is obviously darker in a way that goes beyond just the basic plot itself, it leaks into the rest of the game's design choices. It does so in a way that feels much different than anything that came before it, despite the fact that one can pick out individual choices that SA2 has done and find them across the series history. Even the "darker" tone with SA2 had been done before, particularly with Sonic CD. But SA2 combined these elements in a completely different way than its predecessors and as a result just felt like a different take on the same character, not just a "darker" sonic. Not a different series altogether, but a different strand and different vibe. And the fanbase is a direct reflection of it. Having witnessed the history of this franchise, I'd say SA2 is unquestionably the most divisive game and theres really not even a close second.
  4. I think in terms of the sonic gameplay, the somewhat linear A to B goal oriented style (disregarding the physics) SA2 actually follows the classic era fairly well. Most of the main series games do, although the nuances of physics and level design seemed to weaken with each entry following SA1. Even the boost games follow the same basic formula in this regard. The biggest differences between the classics-SA1 and then SA2-modern titles are the level design (and physics nuances) and the environment aesthetic. SA1 in particular was almost like a sequel to S3K in terms of the tone, locations used and the palette choice. Even though it had some realistic locations it used practically identical themes throughout with the same lighter, more vibrant tone throughout much of it. And one underrated element that it pretty much nailed as a follow up was in its choice of music; SA1 had a very diverse selection of music that was composed to create a sense of atmosphere, which is a key element that the classic games focused heavily on. This is one element that is often mentioned when people talk about the old school "sonicy" vibe that the classics seemed to have in comparison to the titles from SA2 onward. The level design aesthetic and the musical themes (and SFX) combined in a recipe to create a very distinguishable sense of environment or world from any of other series. SA1 does that nearly as well as the classic games did. This is without getting into the level design, for which SA1 is really the only 3D title in 20 years to make a serious attempt at translating sonic's classic gameplay into a fully 3D context. I think with SA2 sonic team realized they werent totally capable of making that kind of high speed pinball physics gameplay in a fully 3D world, so to compensate they needed to change the focus of their design principles to put more emphasis on spectacle...an element which has always had a place in the series but in the classics was secondary to the slope/level interaction mechanics that were fundamental in allowing the player to control the action. SA1 didnt quite nail this either even with its honest attempt and was also quite overdone with spectacle...but one can immediately tell playing the game what ST was trying to do. SA2 by comparison was much more like a series of hallways sprinkled in between sections of a rollercoaster. Much more on rails and segmented than SA1 which was designed to feel more like distinct open environments, very much in line with what the classics tried to create despite being limited to 2 dimensions. (By the way heroes attempted to copy the aesthetic and stage progression of the classics but completely missed the point in almost every other area. This is why few use it as an example). SA2 used some elements from earlier in the series (crazy gadget/death egg, etc.) but the entire palette was much darker to match the tone of the story and writing, which also significantly diverged from the classics in being more of a shonen or 'knock off' sci fi vibe. And the music choice sharply diverged as well, with the focus being more on character themes rather than creating a sense of atmosphere in each of the environments. This is an underrated thing because in the classic games the environment/aesthetic plays a big part in making the player feel like they are actually in some fantastical alternative universe home to Sonic and his critter friends; while SA2 goes for more of the "realism" vibe, even though it too has some wacky design choices sprinkled throughout. I think SA2's choices based on the plot and characters made perfect sense for what it was... but theres no question its direction was very different than even its immediate predecessor. It really should be considered the beginning of modern sonic, while SA1 feels somewhat like the swan song of the classic era....although technically being the first major 3D title in the series. *this post might be redundant in parts, I apologize in advance. But I'm not going to edit it cause I dont feel like it, and I'm not apologizing for that 😁*
  5. You certainly dont have to. I just think it adds nothing to the conversation when you answer like that. It's your right but it's kind of a pointless post. It's kind of interesting to see what is important to many different people in this series and why. That's why I made the comment. And I think the spirit of the thread is to find those specific things, maybe/maybe not obvious, that define the spirit of the series for you. That's how I interpret the question. As for that being a fact, I'd have to ask "which characters define the sonic series?" Because the sonic series has existed with many different characters with varying number throughout its history. The only character that has been in every single sonic game is sonic himself, and the cast has varied quite a bit throughout history. So the series being defined by its characters is fairly meaningless. Whoever you think the most vital characters are...if they're not sonic, one can make the argument that you're objectively wrong because the series has existed (and even thrived) with only sonic and an antagonist (usually "eggman" but not always) as the cast. By your definition, a sonic game only needs to have Sonic the hedgehog in it to be considered a sonic game, there's no need for plurality. So no, what you said is not fact if you use the phrase "defined by its characters". What you really state by your definition is "defined by its titular character"
  6. Exactly my point. There is nothing interesting about your answer because nearly every series does the exact same thing. What differentiates sonic from anything else in that regard? At least mention something specific in regards to the characters beyond their superficial appearance that provides a unique experience.
  7. This can be said about literally any game with a titular character and his/her friends. What makes sonic different or unique to other series that have their own characters other than their mere existence? Your answer is basically: "sonic is sonic because it has sonic and his friends in it". For me it is not only the sense of adventure that sonic is constantly seeking and the vibrant colorful worlds he travels through....bit also how he does it. Sonic runs, spins, jumps, grinds, surfs, all kinds of movement smoothly throughout the varying landscapes he moves through. He not only chases freedom and adventure, he embodies it in his movements. And when I as the player get to control that "smoothness", it feels like I'm playing a sonic game. It is uniquely sonic to me to have a character do this while blasting across so many colorful worlds. And the worlds have such a great atmosphere, they are inspiring in their own way. Sonic's design is also timeless, particularly the classic version although I like both classic and modern.
  8. I just dont think any of us truly understand what is going on at SEGA enough to determine whether or not ST needs to be "replaced". I've thought about this for a long time but as much I've as dug and tried to find any concrete information, it doesn't really seem clear who is at fault for the inconsistency between titles. What has seemed to be clear is the miscommunication between SOJ and SOA; in recent days that seems to be changing as the company has recently restructured. Maybe something good will come out of it, who knows. Utimately who works on the games is not the primary issue anymore. I believe takashi Iizuka is one of the people remaining who have cared about fans and the franchise; he wont be around forever but it is important that sonic team always retains someone like him, or else Sonic could change into something frankly unrecognizable. I think what really matters right now is for someone with a vision for a great sonic game to come forward and for the company to allow it to breathe. Regardless of how talented people are, if there isnt a clear vision for what sonic should do next, the game wont be any good regardless of who works on it. So it could be someone old or new, there just has to be a clear gameplan and vision to move on. Mania had a clear vision. Forces sorely lacked one. I wish I had a way to channel some of my ideas to the right party, to be truly honest. I dont want to be a developer because I'm working on other more important things in my life. But I have some ideas I'd like to get considered by people with the resources and time to develop a concept. If I could I'd contact someone there and write up what I've thought about and let them have at it. I just want to see something like it see the light of day and dont care about whether or not my name is attached to it, or money comes my way. I have the same dream I've had for sonic in 3D I've had since the 90s, and want to see it in action.
  9. I'm getting something wrong here. I do know for a fact that some sonic team people left for Nintendo around that time. Think I may have gotten the project wrong. Have to check again.
  10. I think having more time IS necessary to making a great game. Certainly, trying to churn out a new big 3D game in a year or so is not enough time to make something great. This is partly why forces was so shocking. I was at SXSW 2017 and saw the live gameplay reveal. Instantly I knew that the game was not close to done and it blew my mind. I still gave it a chance before fully writing it off, but I knew instinctively it would not hold up in the same year that Mania came out. ST said they had 4 years to work on this game, but there is absolutely no way possible it took them 4 years to make that game considering how unfinished it was only 7 months before released and the product we actually got. (Well, you suckers that actually bought that sh*t ) Having more time to make a game when you actually have a vision would be incredibly helpful to making a better product. But when you have no idea what you want, you can waste the time. And it sadly does seem like that may have happened. Hopefully theres some part of the story that is missing but if we find out that nope, they're just tired and uninspired, I think that would be as good a time as any to finally check out on this series. (Not encouraging people to do that, just saying.)
  11. Yeah if I recall correctly, some of the staff went to work on Mario games, I think galaxy 2. Have to verify but it definitely happened.
  12. First off....Great post! I share a lot of your feelings, particularly the bolded. I actually had to laugh out loud when I read it...but then 5 seconds later felt terrible haha. The timing of announcing an anniversary game after the previous game was an anniversary game...and the last good game before that was an anniversary game....just seems like a lot of thought isn't being given to marketing here. I think the reason a lot of us feel that way, outside of any evidence, is that Sonic Generations showed what this modern Sonic Team could do when focused and funded. Sure it didn't win any awards but it was clearly the best Sonic game in over a decade, arguably the best 3D Sonic title to date...and I'm aware that's not saying a whole lot but the game was THE love letter to Sonic fans before Mania. The level design, the soundtrack... brilliant stuff. It and Colors were like a defibrillator to the state of the series at the time, which a lot of fans too soon seem to forget. Obvious quality and love. (Hey, no one @me about Colors ok?! It was a solidly made game, and the public and media agreed which means something in the videogame market). Its seems unconscionable that that same team cannot produce something near that level again after doing it twice in a row, and this is forgetting Unleashed which while only half a good game, did get notable praise for its better half. And really, it IS unconscionable. These games may be difficult, but they're not rocket science.... and ST have already proven they could do it. So there are only three plausible conclusions to take from this IMO: 1) Sonic Team is not actually Sonic Team anymore: This one we know is true based on information that has surfaced in the last few years. Much of Generations staff left for Nintendo after that game, so it makes sense that the braintrust for the next project may not produce something of similar quality. 2)Sonic Team is burned out: This has been rumored to be the case since 2006 actually. Many people have said that the series has been something of a zombie since Yuji Naka left (even before that) and many long timer staffers want to be working on other things. Iizuka has actually admitted this himself, with the Nights series. So this may be a factor and why it seems impossible that we can't get that one title that is the 3D equivalent of Mania in terms of quality. It is no coincidence that Mania happened only after a group of extremely passionate and very capable fans took on the job. (And that's not intended as a slight to ST, who are not some talentless group). 3)There actually was a game in the works: Again, I do kind of think this based on many things I've read since 2013 but its not provable at the moment. I think we are living in a reality (haha) where some combination of all 3 has happened. So why do I have any optimism for this series at all? Why haven't I just left? Well, I definitely have downgraded my fanhood quite a bit in recent years. In the past I would support Sonic with my dollars in most ways I could and keep daily tabs on the series upcoming projects for any news. Since Forces release a lot of steam has left that wagon for me. The one and only thing that serves as my lifeblood as a fan right now, is the simple fact that Mania itself exists, and that team who created it exists and wants to work more ( I'm assuming), and that SEGA has clearly noticed what Mania accomplished for them. This means that all is not lost and there is the potential that the next project can see improvement based on what was just learned in the last big outing...Mania and Forces. One was outstanding, the other mediocre. Lots of immediate lessons to learn about what to do and what not to... and lessons spaced so closely together, you just can't miss the point there.
  13. Soon as I saw it, thought it was quite stupid. Running out of ideas, they are. Haha, alright now. Sure I'll leave it alone. I never said it was YOU who said that. You made your point and I don't disagree. There are a few posts I can quote a few pages back that literally did say that though and I brought it up because I've seen it quite a lot, especially elsewhere. Otherwise wouldn't have said anything.
  14. This is a valid point but the reason I made that post is because I have seen people in this very thread say that they are okay with nostalgia pandering as long as it is the Adventure kind, as well as other online forums. Again, I dont think nostalgia pandering is inherently bad and think it can be good when handled appropriately and not overdone. I also would be fine with some adventure era pandering. In fact, when some of the trailers for Forces came out and we saw some of the adventure era stuff like chaos, I cracked a little smile. Definitely cool to see some of it again because there were some cool and interesting concepts from that era. I would be okay if the series decided it wanted to revisit some of that again (although for sure I'd be a little wary in some ways) because I was also a fan in that era just like I have been in the boost era, or any other era. I just think people should admit this when they talk about it. I admit it all the time as a so called classic fan, although I think the classic era has a strong and somewhat natural argument for being reused or seeing many callbacks, since it was by far the most successful time period in the franchise.
  15. Wrong. Green Hill Zone is a general setting with an aesthetic. Sonic technically didn't even have 'levels' in the classics like Mario did, he has Zones with 'acts' which are meant to be full environments that appear to have their own history (although you dont experience that fully as a player). Read into hirokazu yasuhara and more of the development history of the classic games for more on this.
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