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About UpCDownCLeftCRightC

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  1. I'm not expecting to deter a single soul, nor was that the jist of my post. It's like you're pointing to me and telling ME to let others be, for really no reason at all. I said people should want what they want (with no compromises) but keep in mind that communication between what fans want and we what the developers actually understand are not necessarily on the same wavelength and gave some historical context for it. Perhaps the most unobjectionable statement I could possibly make in a situation like this. If anything fans should be louder and louder (but perhaps in a more targeted way imo) until they actually are more likely to get closer to the ideal. Even if the devs don't get it, if you keep asking eventually they will get you, if you're patient enough. There's a gap between threads like this which are pure speculation, and then people actually creating rumors and running with the belief thereof that I think needs some caution, that is all. The latter is the part needing 'lowering' if there's any. Over the last year or so, some innocent beliefs and speculation based on desire have transformed into real expectation. It's like the boy who grew wings.
  2. Let me rephrase so I'm more clear, I think I wasn't: Any fan of any era should continually and incessantly ask for what they want, no matter what anyone else says. I just think we have to be careful in how we describe those things to SEGA, that's all. Like, Sonic Adventure 3 right? Comes with a lot of expectations for fans. But how well does SEGA or Sonic Team actually understand the key features that that game would need to have in order to really please it's hardcore fans? Might SEGA release a game titled Sonic Adventure 3 with many of the same features and characters, but instead with the boost engine for example because it's what they actually know how to do? Would that make fans happy (No it wouldn't). I bring this specific example up because SEGA in the last decade hasn't up to this point even differentiated between how the sonic adventure games played (in the purely sonic sections) and how the latter modern games played. They've commonly referred to the games in the same way, just that the latter games perhaps fixing the issues of the former in their opinion (Iizuka has commented on this before iirc, as "the forward facing 3D games" in contrast to the "side scrolling pixel games"). Have to watch out for stuff like that, for some reason miscommunication has always happened very easily in this franchise compared to others I've seen over the years. So If I'm saying anything at all, I'm saying, somehow there needs to be a more targeted vocal campaign for fans in order to get what they actually want, rather than just the packaging. Don't just scream 'SA3!!!' or 'SA remake yeah!!!' because it leaves ST in a position to interpret that however they see fit....that is NOT what you guys want....as a former victim of Sonic 4, trust me. You might believe they understand what that means...but you'd be surprised. This can very, very easily become a Sonic 4 situation. So again, I think you guys should be screaming for what you want definitely, I'm in support. In fact, I would like a SA remake because I think it might be the only chance to get what I actually want to see after all these long years of suffering (haha). I think that's a better goal than SA3, which as of right now has too much potential to go horribly wrong. SA3 should not be the first game made in that style after 15+ years, much like Mania only came after Whitehead had remastered two classic titles first. Also I do agree that there have been things one could interpret as 'hints' to a possible SA style game. It's why I had it on my list in the OP. I still see a brand new game as most likely, inspired by the recent successes of the franchises in some form, but SEGA isn't ignorant of SA fans and they've been the loudest group in the last 4 years or so. .....(Inb4 next game is Forces 2 with chao garden stuffed with microtransactions)
  3. @Scritch the Cat my comment was a simpler one, merely that SEGA would be obviously happy for fans to be anticipating their next game. Didn't mean anything more complicated by that statement, sorry if it seemed that way. You made good points though. I hope by the end of spring we do get some kind of hint or brief trailer because if what the next project is is NOT Sonic Adventure related in any substantial way, a lot of fans are going to be quite disappointed. I should say though, like I did many months ago, many fans should calm down a bit with conflating their desires and expectations. If you keep asking for a particular thing when the company hasn't dabbled in that idea in a very long time, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment when they actually try to do it but can't because they don't know how....it was over 15 years ago, after all, and the same people are not around today. (scritch said some of this) Or, if the company just isn't thinking about it in the same way you are, and didn't actually have your ideas in their plans. The fact is, we really don't know. All we have is the twitter "hints", which in hindsight usually don't amount to much. Edit: this is a speculation thread, so its totally okay to do all of the wish lists and rumor stuff here, didnt mean to put anyone off that. I just think people should keep these things under control, because im seeing a large number of fans actually, fully expecting a Sonic adventure deal and I don't think thats where we are right now as a franchise...It could be the next game! But we need more than the nature of what has been discussed in this thread before any hype train can get going.
  4. I think the series will get better. It has before. However, I don't think it will reach the same level it had in it's 90s heyday again. I would love to see it, in particular with the 3D games, but people should realize that when a brand tanks, it almost never regains full strength again. Ironically the only thing I think could boost Sonic up to the level of the classic era or better, at least in public perception, is if Sonic were to change fairly drastically and market himself to a completely new generation, and do a total rebrand. But I don't think it'd be anything any of the current fans would actually want, myself included. I've seen this happen with other game series before. When Takashi Iizuka retires this will probably happen, if Sonic still hasn't strengthened by then.
  5. I actually don't really mind the youtubers who discuss the rumors. When a franchise goes several years without releasing any new titles and giving virtually no information, where are fans supposed to channel their passion? They'll become creative and do it in a number of ways but they'll also get anxious about the next product. It's definitely what the company wants as well, no doubt. If someone wants to expose a tuber for creating a rumor and then discussing it as if it's something official, that's different. Speculation isn't illegal and imo shouldn't be frowned upon in the fan base. I've actually seen this be quite fun in other franchises....although those games tend to have higher quality titles on average, and thus are more fun to speculate (I actually remember what this feels like a sonic fan in the mid to late 90s, waiting for sonic adventure! We didn't always have the sonic cycle...😀) Anyone who is a long time fan of the series by now should have learned to not believe anything by default. Rumors CAN BE real, as we saw with the sonic forces several rumors years ago. It's up to people if they want to wait around for stuff like that and deal with the hype.
  6. There's a new economy around sonic rumors. FWIW I don't exactly believe the zippo leaks either. It really doesn't make any sense to shelf classic sonic after mania at all and secondly, zippo actually did just more or less give his opinions on what he thinks will happen. His opinions, tbh, are fairly worthless in speculating what the next game will be if it's not him actually seeing something or being told something. No disrespect intended either, I'm not suggesting he isn't a credible leaker but this isn't really a "leak". I think 2021 will involve classic and "adventure" styles sonics in a not insignificant way and I've thought that for at least the last year or so. Maybe in separate projects but both audiences will get attention.
  7. I think I agree with you but I suppose it is understandable how it happened. The art direction and just about everything else in the series by the mid to late 2000s had veered quite far away from the original games. I think the best choice would have been just to keep classic as the younger version of modern. I suspect though that SEGA themselves were actually flirting with the idea of moving on from traditional sonic games completely prior to Forces and that's what caused the split. Iizuka and numerous sonic team members came out before the games released and said they would be important in determining the direction for sonic's future. Tbh, I think many at SEGA were fatigued with dealing with this franchise since they really haven't understood it (at least in japan) from the get go. The leaks from forces suggested that the buddy character was meant to be a much bigger part of the game from the beginning and they were exploring potential directions without the traditional sonic at the forefront of things. That's how it appeared to me anyway. Mania really saved this franchise. TLDR, I'm saying a lot, but I think the split came from a lack of confidence in the brand prior to Mania. And yes it's their fault and maybe it should never have happened. But then, they could just release solid games consistently enough and we wouldn't be talking about it.
  8. This is the reason I'm interested in the premise of this new show Sonic prime and the multiverse aspect. It seems clear to me now, even though I've wanted another soft reboot (and we probably are getting one even its minor) the answer may actually be to have a multiverse where all of these past and present ideas can coexist without so much infighting. Although to your point, even then it's not like the universes are connected; like a universe that contains modern shadow and a separate one that contains ray and mighty may exist next to each other but if theyre never allowed to mix then what is the point for someone who is interested in both? And the same reason why someone like me would wonder, why does classic sonic have to be limited to 2D, or green hill zone for the 20th time? The original sonic team never thought that way back in the mid 90s. Good questions to ask.
  9. They were screaming at us for so long they hadn't noticed they BECAME one of us lol. It's true. They are doing it to the youngest group now that grew up with the boost titles. But I do sincerely hope they get what they want and we all chill out. Mainly because none of this is any of our "faults". It's just something that was destined to happen tbh. As frustrated as I've been over the years at SEGA, I realized that a many of their problems were just timing in the marketplace, as most notably experienced in the early 3D era, and thus unavoidable really.
  10. Besides the fact that kuzu keeps making false accusations....(😁) I don't find it hard to believe at all. It's a matter of preference. If you have your preference for modern, then others can have theirs for classic. No one thinks modern sonic is going to go away and no classic fans (even on retro, afaik) are out here seriously campaigning for the destruction of all things modern. I think for a brief moment, some fans were hoping that a classic renaissance would lead to a greater fusion of those ideas in the current franchise. The fact that Mania was the most widely praised thing in the franchise in over 20 years, not to mention how much the franchise has floundered in that time, just added fuel for us. And to tell you the truth, I think these ideas are so obvious and straightforward at this point, the only reason we find people arguing with us is because we know they just want attention for their own preferences. And that's fine, I just wish they would admit it and relax! That's what this really comes down to imo and I've literally heard dozens of younger fans say it: "you had your turn classic fans, it's our turn now."...whatever that is supposed to mean lol. That kind of discussion is ridiculous. No franchise would ever operate like that. It's about what's best for business and for all interested consumers. If we have to be told repeatedly to "get with the times, it's over!" then we're allowed to assess the current situation as well, and talk about how to improve it. it's pretty hilarious to me, like why would that thought have never occured to us? I don't think a single classic fan that I've come across is delusional enough to not notice.... classic sonic is not the face of the brand anymore (**gasp!!**) and I have no idea why that bears repeating. It's more like some of you need to convince yourselves of that, I swear it seems that way. I've been a fan longer than some of you have been alive tbh, and I know how to read the writing on the wall. This series is undergoing yet another change soon as it has many times before. And yet again I'll adapt my expectations to it, as will others from my generation. People like me have no trouble seeing things as they are and chiming in with our input and preferences when we feel like. It's why were still here. The classic fans that truly don't like anything modern and don't want to adopt have long gone. Trust me, I personally know many people like that. Several of my colleagues and friends around my age have told me in recent years, especially when mania released, they hadn't paid attention to sonic in forever and hated the 3d transition. Those people aren't the ones you're chatting with though. I dunno...maybe diogenes is like that but I think he/she may just be pulling your legs like I am.
  11. Just in case I was misunderstood, I've already said I think the classic sonic character design doesn't work as well as the modern iterations in 3D, except possibly the Saturn versions which are extremely similar minus the eye color. My favorite compromise was how he was in adventure. Taller than classic, as he had been getting slightly taller throughout the classic era anyway, but not quite as tall as the 2006 and later versions. That's all I'm saying. Sonic is known for both running and curling into a ball and the design should reflect that. In general, modern is fine. I just think the proportions are a bit too much, it should dial back a bit to earlier in the 3D series.
  12. No problem man. And as you might guess I agree to a large extent. Sonics history is not just the classic games and he's had good ideas sprinkled across all eras. I think even diogenes has said this, that if he were going to do a full reboot he would not throw out everything after 1994. Same here essentially. I think SA2, for example, probably has the best post game multiplayer and general replayability of any game in the entire series and it doesn't get enough credit for that by sega, especially in this dlc/lootbox world we live in now. That needs to be added permanently to the sonic formula because people replay the shit out of that game, warts and all. There are other examples across the series as well. For me with classic, I just really look at the consistent focus the main titles had, the obvious gameplay foundation, and the art direction. I don't even think it's plainly necessary to do that art style all the time, but I think the series should use it as the foundation, it's just unique to sonic and helps the series stand out from other franchises. But everything else, especially story, I think they can pull from more modern takes with some careful revisions. Truthfully I don't think a big story is necessary to sonic but if handled right it could certainly be a positive. And to your main point, I have to stress that a refresh isn't a reboot as you know. I don't think modern should change dramatically, only slight updates. I would like to see a shorter sonic (with smaller hands and feet too, they're just awkward atm), like the adventure games tbh in 3D. Tall sonic imo takes away too much of the 'hedgehog' from Sonic. He should be rolling as much as he runs tbh, it's in the original spirit of the character. I get why they did what they did with post 2008 modern, it's not illogical and it's not a bad design. It's just not ideal IMO.
  13. There has been ONE full game in the last few decades which was a 2D game based on classic sonic and you think classic fans are afraid of this? I think YOU have an highly irrational fear that every game is going to be like S3K because it's not what YOU want. People like you who make statements like "not every game can be Sonic 3 again". Lol... no offense at all, honestly, but do you hear yourself? The series clearly moved on from that 25 years ago. Take a look around. We were shocked that Mania could even exist. And as you probably have noticed there are really no signs of a follow up to it. It's just weird to see this caricature of the old heads, when we've just sat back and watched the series evolve numerous times and continued to participate in it anyway. Maybe you need to think about why you're so afraid of an idea that SEGA has not entertained in over two decades. Seriously, it'll help you relax. Modern isn't going anywhere. Yes obviously we will ask for the stuff we want when we get the chance and prefer what we like. This should go without need for comment.
  14. I mean, yeah I am. When doing series evaluation I primarily look at main series titles, since those are the ones that get the big money and focus from the main developers. Many spinoffs in this franchise are not made by sonic team proper and thus I don't really harp on them when they are duds and that goes for any era of sonic. For example, boom wasn't a big a deal to me as it was for others, because it wasn't a sonic team game. It only mattered because it was catastrophically bad at a time when Sonic had barely recovered from the previous decade and because SEGA (even though they won't publicly admit it) were considering riding that as the series flagship.
  15. I already said the primary problem was the gameplay. Come on, don't dance around the other bits in my post. It's obvious that the aesthetic alone isn't going to change anything, we all know that. It's why classic sonic has been under fire by some fans recently. It's also true that some of the other elements of the franchise have caught tons of flak in the media, especially the more "serious" tone of the franchise between 2002-2006 in particular. A ton of people (outside the hardcore fan base) ragged on the melodramatic stories and the edgy try hard thing going on. I remember they did, I was there and constantly reading about it. Younger fans look fondly back on those times and I'm not telling them not to (so please don't bite my head off) but the question has been asked by innumerable gaming journalists why sonic had to start taking itself too seriously, in addition to the primary complaints of the gameplay being ass. Again, no need to debate it, the conversation is overcooked and completely pointless. Why are you suddenly looking at me like I can't just accept modern as the evolution lol? I did that back in 1998 and had absolutely no problem with it whatsoever. I've even talked about it in this thread, I actually prefer SA1 sonic as the default in 3D over any classic model, I think they got him just about right tbh. Don't be acting like Im not adaptable or objective, I can see reality without my own rose tinted fan googles on, as well as anyone. Most of my commentary is really just for the heck of it. I just see these "modern sonic is the future" type posts so often now and they are puzzling, thats why I entered the thread. Do people really not realize he's not much younger than the original sonic? We've been at this for quite a long time now. Tbh, "modern" sonic as he has been presented to us for the last few generations is beyond played out in my opinion. He's due for a refresh. If there were ever a time to discuss "what the fck even is a sonic?", I think this next iteration should address that for the next generation, like unleashed did and like SA2 did. I will readily admit, I'd be super duper interested to see what a classic in full 3D interpretation looks like by a inspired director. A game like the sonic cd opening with all of that abstract bright and vibrant art. Yeah, sure, i'd drool over that. But it's definitely not the only way I see sonic, he's a more versatile character than that. I bring it up, because we really have never seen classic in 3d before. Only SA1 was anything resembling that. I'm not even looking for this anymore though, this franchise stopped catering to me a long time ago. I'm here now more or less just to see the next trend for sonic and then move on with my life. I somehow missed this. This is incredibly funny, thank you for that. I too, in some sense, wish the modern sonic house would burn down to the ground and start over. Sonic can still have green eyes and what have you, but I think a solid foundation is desperately in order. Yes, a lot of mania should be infused in the next formula, I will say that without hesitation or care for anyone's objections. But from there, just smart decision making whichever direction they want to take the character. Sonic's guidelines don't need to be super strict, they just have to have a good sense for who the character is and what world he lives in, and let it flow from there.
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