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UpCDownCLeftCRightC

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  1. Egh. At this point I'm just talking in circles about the same topic we've been talking about for years now. I disagree with a few of the above posts but now I cant be bothered to put more energy into this, because I'm just repeating myself. There are fundamental differences in how we're evaluating things and that's totally ok. I'll just bow out here and agree to disagree. I hope that ST is able to get their shit together and focus long enough to have us fans stop speculating on how best to do their jobs. If I was a dev I would take it as an insult that my entire fan community has daily discussions on how to do my job better than me, and constantly says I suck at it despite putting hundreds of hours into my work.
  2. We have and I'm not trying for that. Just as you state what you want, I'm just stating the obvious. There are many fans like you who wont change their minds. But it's not like I'm asking you to either. I just hope Sonic Team doesnt cave in prematurely because if they start adding characters to a formula that doesnt work for them, the series will just get shat on again for it. Even though that may not matter to you, to me it does because it affects the series reputation and sales over time. .....Also, I dont want to play shitty gameplay like tails in a mech or silver rolling a ball just so I can say I played as them in a game. I want to play a fun 3D platforming sonic game.
  3. Well kind of. This is the sonic franchise and at the end of the day, there needs to be some relevant connection to him in order for it to make sense. I dont think the relationship has to be one way or the other though. Maybe they have their own quest and motivation but at some level it needs to be related to the larger story. It would be weird otherwise to just have some character in the game that has nothing to do with sonic or the plot. I think everything else you're saying is a matter of personal preference and I cant really argue against that except to just state my irrelevant tastes, so I'll leave it there. The problem with this of course, is that the moment we decide "ok it's been long enough" and then sonic friends start getting shoehorned in the 3D games regardless of how well they play, we're just starting the shitty friends cycle all over again. There is no arbitrary time length for how long characters should not be included or anything like that. It's a "simple" (not necessarily easy) matter of designing a flexible gameplay so that they work without introducing bullshit gimmicks. That can happen in one development cycle. Or it can go on for ten plus years as you've noted. It depends on the developers and their goals. The harsh reality is that regardless, shoehorning characters in the games that aren't designed well to support them is going to cause a lot more problems. We know this because it has already happened. It's why the meme exists.
  4. UpCDownCLeftCRightC

    Spinoffs for other characters?

    I mean I'm not going on a crusade advocating for shadow to get better treatment or anything, I'm not a part of that fan club really. But yeah, I think spinoff games typically happen because a character is popular enough. (Red pill moment: what if I told you, the entire mario franchise is a spinoff franchise?) 😮 Joke aside, yeah that's usually what happens. And shadow is sort of the poster boy for the often forgotten unofficial "adventure era" in the franchise. Sure other characters could get a spinoff game, I'm just not sure when or why it would happen. If you think about when it has happened before in this franchise, it's usually somewhat soon after the introduction of a side character. Tails and knuckles (terrible) spin offs happened pretty much right after they were introduced, to capitalize off of the popularity of the recent main title.
  5. UpCDownCLeftCRightC

    Spinoffs for other characters?

    The only irrelavant character who is really popular enough at this point to warrant their own spinoff series to me is shadow. Hes been consistently popular with fans for a long time, even though he has his share of haters. The other characters dont really seem too popular or notable to me outside of the diehard fans of the games in which they appear. Blaze, silver, you name it. I said irrelavant because almost all of the side characters in the franchise are essentially irrelevant now.
  6. This is true. But then you have to think, are shadow/blaze/etc going to start becoming a part of the main cast just so they can be playable in every game? That's probably not the answer, especially considering how the characters were written.... at least tails has an excuse to accompany sonic on most of his adventures. Knuckles not as much but I think ST treats him as part of the core cast (I dont think he should be as much as they do, even though I like knuckles, but the point remains).
  7. True true. And that's really the point I was trying to make. The characters themselves are not the problem in the series, we should all know that by now. But in a 3D platformer, to make characters like tails and knuckles interesting and to utilize their canonical abilities, there are some challenges presented by a 3D space that you dont see in 2D mainly because of level design. You have to really build an entire game with them in mind and that takes a lot of time and thought. So I needed to phrase it that way, because I dont think making them clones characters of sonic's gameplay would have worked based on the level design philosophy of the 3D games thus far. Both tails and knuckles would easily, completely break all of sonic's levels in both SA1 and 2 with their natural abilities. You would have to severely cripple their abilities to the point in which they are no longer interesting. Let it be known that I definitely do think there is a way to fix this problem and it hasnt really been done yet in this series. But until we get there, adding the characters into what we've done so far will not work.
  8. Removing extra characters from the 3D games was done out of necessity. We know that the existence of the characters themselves is not what is dragging the franchise down. We just know that the way their gameplay was handled from SA1-06 was very much a problem. Theres no point in even arguing that anymore because even Sonic Team themselves have admitted it publicly. This will always be a problem for a good portion of this fanbase because a lot of fans of this series patronize simply out of interest for characters other than Sonic and the gameplay is somewhat of a secondary concern. But as some have already said, from a game development perspective, trying to add extra characters before you even have a good idea what to do with the primary gameplay in 3D platforming is simply a bad approach. These people aren't going to like this and will complain about it incessantly, and that's ok, it's their prerogative. However at the end of the day it's not going to stop being true; you cant talk about bonus features until you decide what to do with the main offering. There are some who think extra characters can just be added to what has already been done in 3D so far. To that I say..............No. So many fans think that extra characters, for example, can just be plugged into generations gameplay and everything will be fine, when just a 5 minute examination of that kind of idea shows how bad of idea it is. But please feel free to prove literally all of the development effort of the last 20 years wrong if you feel otherwise. I havent seen a fan effort yet that comes even remotely close to an interesting concept (the lone exception being Utopia). Fan efforts and opinions on how to handle the 3D gameplay so far, no offense, has largely been really really awful all around. And rightly so because 3D sonic is more challenging than 2D and takes many more people to do. Fans aren't going to create a great 3D sonic gameplay and fix this problem to bring the character back, only the devs will when they have the resources and focus.
  9. UpCDownCLeftCRightC

    Think we'll get two Sonic games in 2019?

    I feel like I've answered this in recent threads already but I can't resist answering again, because I love to speculate about the dream 3D Sonic game I still haven't gotten after waiting 20 years If we get a new title in 2019 other than TSR, it will only be because it had already been in development for years, probably even during Forces development. If Forces really was SEGA's big project goal between 2013-2017 and whatever new game is being made didn't start until after Forces, it seems far less likely we'll see anything from it until 2020, especially considering the negative feedback from Forces. As for 2D Sonic, no we won't see a new title in 2019, not happening. And I'm grateful for that. Who wants Whitehead to be overworked and put out an unfinished, not fleshed out product? Not me.
  10. UpCDownCLeftCRightC

    The Making of: Sonic Adventure (New Iizuka Interview)

    Dammit. I feel like I'm being worn down by diehard adventure fans. Now as the days pass and I see more chatter about remaking SA1, I get a little excited at the prospect of it. I do feel like more than any other game in the franchise it would stand to gain the most from a remake or reimagining and I flat out love it. You bastards. You and your constant chatter has worn me down quite a bit. I still think Sonic would be a lot better off just focusing on how best to move forward in 3D rather than trying to make the adventure gameplay roulette thing work again but I have so much nostalgia over SA1 that I can't help but think how happy I would be to actually see it done well. It would be awesome, no lie. (One thing I do not want and would not be okay with though, is if ST decides to do a SA1 remake using the boost engine. I really like the boost games, but I would not want that at all. Sonic would need to get back to the Yuji Naka physics but refined to include better handling of slopes.) ….That said, I feel like after this interview people are getting way too far ahead of themselves thinking that Iizuka is telling us SEGA is going to actually do this. I would not take this interview as a sign of that at all. I doubt that any work has been done on it up until now and if it does happen, it probably isn't the next title they have in mind. I could be wrong but there's nothing that would indicate they're going in this direction as of now. I will be looking out for it though, if there are some serious discussions going on about revisiting it.
  11. UpCDownCLeftCRightC

    Spinoffs for other characters?

    Totally agree. I also think shadow deserves his own subseries. Could be an outlet to explore the series in that steroetypically "edgier" direction and cater to those fans unabashedly. Edgy of course is just an umbrella buzzword, define it however you want.
  12. UpCDownCLeftCRightC

    Should Sonic take a break?

    Not necessary. I just gave you my opinion, that's all. I said outright several times that the modern direction can be fine too and can work. Im not about classic sonic all the time, I like some aspects of both the adventure era and modern era. Some of my favorite sonic games come from all "3" eras. If i really hated them so completely, I would not be posting on these boards and would have abandoned the franchise a long time ago, because sonic has not been in the classic form for a long time. My ego and preference is not a factor here. If you want me to agree with you, I'm sorry that may not happen. We probably do agree in some areas, as do all people, but my opinion is simply a matter of preference backed by some historical points, that's it, it's not something to get upset about. I have no issue with logic and am quite comfortable with it. So respectfully, I'll just agree to disagree as you put in a rather different energetic phrasing.
  13. UpCDownCLeftCRightC

    Should Sonic take a break?

    Right as I said, my point isnt that all other sonic media should be erased from existence. I thought my post was clear in that. I said sonic badly needs to focus the brand. In my opinion, that would entail putting the classic/mania style stuff at the forefront of the brand and building on it, in both 2D and 3D. I also absolutely would find ways for the boost and adventure stuff to exist in other ways as long as the budget allows, because there is demand for it, but as for the primary representation of the series, I would focus on a consistent identity so that people know what they're primarily getting from this series. Honestly, its be quite similar to how mario offers its products, with a big budget main title every 4 years or so and then a few spin offs every other year. The brand confusion does play a role in sales and success ultimately, and I could probably post some things to support this argument but wont because I'm lazy and you can just look it up. I'm ultimately not terribly interested in comparing what I like to what other sonic fans like because its beside the point, and I dont care. People have their tastes. My point about the classic/mania stuff is the SEGA has said a number of times publicly even recently that they know their brand was at its strongest during that time and they want to get it back to that status. This is pretty common knowledge to anyone who is even remotely aware of sonic's history since the 90s. And with mania's recent success, the most we've seen in a very long time...I mean I feel like theres not much that needs to be said here, it should be plain as day. I'm not an adventure hater or boost hater. I just want sonic to be self consistent, fun, and successful whatever direction he decides to go in. It just seems clear to me what direction that should be based on the franchise past and recent history.
  14. UpCDownCLeftCRightC

    Should Sonic take a break?

    Right, to that individual, sonic may mean something different than to the next fan. That much is understood, no need to explain. But the point is that Sonic has undeniably experienced his greatest success and most recognition by follow the classic/mania style, much more than at any other time in the franchise history and is still recognized for it. So regardless of our disagreements as fans, that much is true. I would only argue that since sonic has mostly floundered over the last 20 years with an identity crisis, it's best to give him a consistent identity to build on rather than continue to throw different shit at the wall like has been done since the adventure games, good ideas or not. Also this is not me saying I'm ignoring all other history in the franchise and all else is bad, just that sonic really badly needs to focus. What better opportunity than after the highested rated game and well received cartoon in 20 years? It's my opinion that we should do this, it's not gospel. Modern sonic can also find ways to survive and move forward with success too, if he picks a good direction and stays consistent. I just think at this point it's kind of obvious what needs to be done. Right, to that individual, sonic may mean something different than to the next fan. That much is understood, no need to explain. But the point is that Sonic has undeniably experienced his greatest success and most recognition by follow the classic/mania style, much more than at any other time in the franchise history and is still recognized for it. So regardless of our disagreements as fans, that much is true. I would only argue that since sonic has mostly floundered over the last 20 years with an identity crisis, it's best to give him a consistent identity to build on rather than continue to throw different shit at the wall like has been done since the adventure games, good ideas or not. Also this is not me saying I'm ignoring all other history in the franchise and all else is bad, just that sonic really badly needs to focus. What better opportunity than after the highested rated game and well received cartoon in 20 years? It's my opinion that we should do this, it's not gospel. Modern sonic can also find ways to survive and move forward with success too, if he picks a good direction and stays consistent. I just think at this point it's kind of obvious what needs to be done.
  15. UpCDownCLeftCRightC

    Should Sonic take a break?

    What I said isnt bullshit gate keeping. Most every franchise has an identity or set of expectations when you play the games. Whether or not that is like classic sonic or modern sonic, being consistent is crucial to building and maintaining success. The reason I brought up mania is because mania is built on the same formula that the series was established on, and not coincidentally reached its peak of popularity and success with. I absolutely do think that sonic could have good success sticking with what hes done with more modern titles like colors and generations as well, but I also think that it is very obvious that the Sonic we saw presented in mania and mania adventures was the best received we've seen the character since the 90s. That is "sonic-y", it's not a nebulous concept, it's something well and easily understood by most people with a quick glance at this series. It's a little silly to me when people pretend like this is some super abstract thing, when it's not. The vibe presented there is what the series was most known and successful with so I think it is just common sense to embrace what obviously works. Sonic doesnt have to be any which way. I just think its be best if he focuses on what he does best. And contrary to what some people might believe, there is such an obvious definition for sonic.
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