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GentlemanX

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  1. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from DaddlerTheDalek in Sonic Prime coming to Netflix in 2022   
    Well, the premise is certainly more intriguing than I was expecting.
    Let's get the first thought out of the way.

    In all seriousness, the choice in name and premise is really eyebrow raising from an Archie fan perspective. I realize Sega is probably completely unaware this was a thing in the Archie books, but at some point you'd figure someone would mention it to them. Dan Slott, the writer of the first Zone Cop story and therefore the one to use the name Sonic Prime, probably isn't going to pull a Penders here, but he is a big name in the comics industry and in fact is the one who wrote the original Spider-Man Spider-Verse comics that inspired the film which this series is clearly also inspired from. It's just more than a little on the nose and makes me half wonder if he's involved with this at all. Highly unlikely, but again, this is all way too uncanny.
    So with that out of the way, let's go over the actual premise. I had more or less expected a kids toyetic series in the same vein as Fully Charged, so this at least is a lot more of an ambitious story. That being said, it's also not really what I'd call a great series premise. Could multiverse stuff work as a subplot, or even multiple subplots to a larger series? Absolutely. Could multiverse stuff even work as a premise for a season of a larger series? Sure, I think it could. Can multiverse stuff work as the premise to an entire series? I'm not confident of that. Having the entire series focused on Sonic jumping through dimensions and meeting alternate continuities feels off when the main setting of the games has not been seen through the lens of a show before, with the closest version being Sonic X. Starting with something familiar and then branching out to alternate continuities would be a lot more welcoming to an outsider than folks who are already going to need to get used to a new CG interpretation of Sonic from a studio that's never done anything with him before outside of releasing DVDs of other companies that worked with Sega.
    It also makes me even less certain of having this series be CG. CG series for television usually don't have the budget for using lots of new models and environments, instead opting for set locations and characters they can repurpose for different episodes. It's why stuff like TMNT 2k12 gets complaints that New York is empty or why Sonic Boom had so many stock background characters. If you're going to be just repurposing the Sonic model with different clothes or something for these alternate Sonic I guess that would work, but I feel like the format they chose really doesn't lend itself to the premise and more hinders it than anything. Especially when Man of Action has worked on plenty of 2-D shows before. Makes me wonder if Wild Brain is the weak link here and if so why Sega chose them to work with on the series.
    Lastly, I'll go ahead and do some pie in the sky analysis of how the previous continuities could be incorporated into the show. I honestly am not going into this expecting all the old shows and comics being acknowledged here, quite the opposite, but let's just some fun speculation if they wanted, and Sega allowed them, to go in that direction.
    Games: Classic Sonic/Blaze/Humans - We're going to assume for now that the protagonist is Modern Sonic and not a completely new Sonic. Classic Sonic seems like the most sure thing, given his use by the brand right now. I know Tyson said Classic isn't likely to be a driving force for the brand, but I'd still expect him to be here. Blaze and the humans are more iffy, simply because they don't have alternate Sonics which I would assume is the idea behind this show. I'd like to see them acknowledged, especially so Blaze could finally be animated, but who's to say.
    Shows and Movies: AOSTH, SatAM, OVA, Underground, X, Boom, Paramount Sonic - The big limiting factor here to me is Sega. Sega's policy regarding previous versions of characters would indicate we won't see any of these, but the premise is almost demanding it so I'm going to speculate regardless. AOSTH, SatAM, and Underground would all have Sonic voiced by Jaleel and Modern would tag along on whatever they're doing. AOSTH probably being a standard setup, SatAM set before Doomsday Project, and Underground probably generic too. I don't expect we'd be getting closure for either SatAM or Underground, not unless they're going to spend more than one episode there. I doubt they'd get Martin Burke to reprise OVA Sonic, but it'd be neat if they did. Imagine if they were to remix the OVA's soundtrack. X would probably be set during either season 1 or 2 with Griffith doing Sonic. I would guess Chris would be left out beyond maybe as a joke at some point. Boom would be the same as the show, probably breaking the fourth wall and with Roger as Sonic. Paramount would be interesting though I don't know how much ownership Sega has over that version. Obviously Ben would be Sonic and would likely tie into the first movie rather than the second, unless the show was going to be aware of how that film's developing. Which it could I suppose.
    Comics: Archie (Pre-reboot and Post), Fleetway, IDW, Manga, etc.: Due to the legal issues surrounding most of these I would expect the likelihood of acknowledging these is significantly smaller than the shows and movies. If they did, I imagine Archie would be voiced by Jaleel or the voice of Modern Sonic, Fleetway either the voice of Modern Sonic or someone else, and the Manga (in particular the old Nicky stuff since the other manga are so close to modern) would be someone else as well. IDW is probably the most likely given it's relevance right now, but I don't know if there's enough in it to make it it's own continuity. Not unless you put a lot of focus on Tangle and Whisper with Sonic and having Starline as the bad guy. I'd think Sega wouldn't want those characters associated with a definite alternate continuity yet though.
    But yeah, I'm fully aware we're probably not going to see the old continuities in this show, that part is just for fun given the premise.
    Final thoughts:
    This part is especially silly to me.
  2. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Redemption in Ken Pontac and Warren Graff are implied to be moving on from Sonic.   
    Unlike with Roger, I never really liked Pontac and Graff's writing, but I will try and give their era a bit of a fair shake here post-mortem.
    First, with the exception of Lost World, all of their scripts were based on outlines produced in Japan. You can't fault them for stuff like less emphasis on story or not involving the series' extended cast more in the narrative. Colors Wii was never going to have more than Sonic, Tails, Eggman, Orbot, Cubot, and Yacker. Generations wasn't going to have more of a plot than "Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic meet and go through old levels". These were decisions made above their pay grade they had no control over, it's just the direction Sega decided to go with based on criticisms of the previous era.
    The outlier here is of course Lost World, which they publicly admitted they were given creative control over the story. I greatly dislike Lost World's story. I dislike how out of character Sonic and Tails seem to act. I dislike the personalities given to four of the six Zeti (I like Zavok and Zik). I dislike how shoehorned in Amy and Knuckles are when their scenes contribute nothing. I dislike how heavy handed the moral is, especially due to how contrived the conflict is achieved. It is my least favorite Sega Sonic story and that falls squarely at their feet. But that doesn't mean I hate them as people. The fandom has been incredibly harsh to people that are just doing their job. I believe Lost World is the perfect example of why the pair of them had no business writing for the Sonic, showing they had little idea of either the franchise or the fandom by writing it. But at the end of the day, it's just a bad story, and doesn't reflect them as people. More folks need to recognize that.
    Back to criticism, while Lost World is the only one you can really blame them on in terms of plot, you can judge them on the rest in terms of script. If there are jokes in Colors or Generations you didn't find funny, that's on them. Stuff like "true dat" and "none of this is good... that's why it's called war" in Forces. Those are their contributions as writers and it's on them that they don't work. The Pontac and Graff era is praised for the characters acting with more personality, and I think there's an argument to be made for that especially for Sonic, Tails, and Eggman. Their dialogue was specifically tailored to appear more relatable and the focus on comedy allowed them to be more engaging for the audience. I don't really think they had a strong handle on what the character's strengths were, not to the level of someone like Ian Flynn for example, but there are people who liked their portrayal in Colors specifically for a reason, and Pontac and Graff's writing is the leading reason for that. It wasn't popular with everyone, but it did have it's fans that should be acknowledged.
    In the end, I can really only my thoughts on how they compared to what came before and speculate on what will come after them. I will always prefer the character writing from 1998-2009 versus 2010-2020. While Pontac and Graff may have made Sonic and Tails sound more like regular people, they stopped sounding like the characters that attracted me to this series. At this time Lost World remains my least favorite game plot, and unless something worse comes later that's going to always color my opinion of their work and this era. I am hopeful that whatever comes next, regardless of who's writing it, is more open to learning more about the characters' history and interacting with the fandom to smooth over any issues they come across. A sense of openness about their process would help alleviate a lot of the alienation folks experienced during this era.
  3. Fist Bump
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Snowragnarok in Ken Pontac and Warren Graff are implied to be moving on from Sonic.   
    Unlike with Roger, I never really liked Pontac and Graff's writing, but I will try and give their era a bit of a fair shake here post-mortem.
    First, with the exception of Lost World, all of their scripts were based on outlines produced in Japan. You can't fault them for stuff like less emphasis on story or not involving the series' extended cast more in the narrative. Colors Wii was never going to have more than Sonic, Tails, Eggman, Orbot, Cubot, and Yacker. Generations wasn't going to have more of a plot than "Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic meet and go through old levels". These were decisions made above their pay grade they had no control over, it's just the direction Sega decided to go with based on criticisms of the previous era.
    The outlier here is of course Lost World, which they publicly admitted they were given creative control over the story. I greatly dislike Lost World's story. I dislike how out of character Sonic and Tails seem to act. I dislike the personalities given to four of the six Zeti (I like Zavok and Zik). I dislike how shoehorned in Amy and Knuckles are when their scenes contribute nothing. I dislike how heavy handed the moral is, especially due to how contrived the conflict is achieved. It is my least favorite Sega Sonic story and that falls squarely at their feet. But that doesn't mean I hate them as people. The fandom has been incredibly harsh to people that are just doing their job. I believe Lost World is the perfect example of why the pair of them had no business writing for the Sonic, showing they had little idea of either the franchise or the fandom by writing it. But at the end of the day, it's just a bad story, and doesn't reflect them as people. More folks need to recognize that.
    Back to criticism, while Lost World is the only one you can really blame them on in terms of plot, you can judge them on the rest in terms of script. If there are jokes in Colors or Generations you didn't find funny, that's on them. Stuff like "true dat" and "none of this is good... that's why it's called war" in Forces. Those are their contributions as writers and it's on them that they don't work. The Pontac and Graff era is praised for the characters acting with more personality, and I think there's an argument to be made for that especially for Sonic, Tails, and Eggman. Their dialogue was specifically tailored to appear more relatable and the focus on comedy allowed them to be more engaging for the audience. I don't really think they had a strong handle on what the character's strengths were, not to the level of someone like Ian Flynn for example, but there are people who liked their portrayal in Colors specifically for a reason, and Pontac and Graff's writing is the leading reason for that. It wasn't popular with everyone, but it did have it's fans that should be acknowledged.
    In the end, I can really only my thoughts on how they compared to what came before and speculate on what will come after them. I will always prefer the character writing from 1998-2009 versus 2010-2020. While Pontac and Graff may have made Sonic and Tails sound more like regular people, they stopped sounding like the characters that attracted me to this series. At this time Lost World remains my least favorite game plot, and unless something worse comes later that's going to always color my opinion of their work and this era. I am hopeful that whatever comes next, regardless of who's writing it, is more open to learning more about the characters' history and interacting with the fandom to smooth over any issues they come across. A sense of openness about their process would help alleviate a lot of the alienation folks experienced during this era.
  4. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from BadBehavior in Ken Pontac and Warren Graff are implied to be moving on from Sonic.   
    Unlike with Roger, I never really liked Pontac and Graff's writing, but I will try and give their era a bit of a fair shake here post-mortem.
    First, with the exception of Lost World, all of their scripts were based on outlines produced in Japan. You can't fault them for stuff like less emphasis on story or not involving the series' extended cast more in the narrative. Colors Wii was never going to have more than Sonic, Tails, Eggman, Orbot, Cubot, and Yacker. Generations wasn't going to have more of a plot than "Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic meet and go through old levels". These were decisions made above their pay grade they had no control over, it's just the direction Sega decided to go with based on criticisms of the previous era.
    The outlier here is of course Lost World, which they publicly admitted they were given creative control over the story. I greatly dislike Lost World's story. I dislike how out of character Sonic and Tails seem to act. I dislike the personalities given to four of the six Zeti (I like Zavok and Zik). I dislike how shoehorned in Amy and Knuckles are when their scenes contribute nothing. I dislike how heavy handed the moral is, especially due to how contrived the conflict is achieved. It is my least favorite Sega Sonic story and that falls squarely at their feet. But that doesn't mean I hate them as people. The fandom has been incredibly harsh to people that are just doing their job. I believe Lost World is the perfect example of why the pair of them had no business writing for the Sonic, showing they had little idea of either the franchise or the fandom by writing it. But at the end of the day, it's just a bad story, and doesn't reflect them as people. More folks need to recognize that.
    Back to criticism, while Lost World is the only one you can really blame them on in terms of plot, you can judge them on the rest in terms of script. If there are jokes in Colors or Generations you didn't find funny, that's on them. Stuff like "true dat" and "none of this is good... that's why it's called war" in Forces. Those are their contributions as writers and it's on them that they don't work. The Pontac and Graff era is praised for the characters acting with more personality, and I think there's an argument to be made for that especially for Sonic, Tails, and Eggman. Their dialogue was specifically tailored to appear more relatable and the focus on comedy allowed them to be more engaging for the audience. I don't really think they had a strong handle on what the character's strengths were, not to the level of someone like Ian Flynn for example, but there are people who liked their portrayal in Colors specifically for a reason, and Pontac and Graff's writing is the leading reason for that. It wasn't popular with everyone, but it did have it's fans that should be acknowledged.
    In the end, I can really only my thoughts on how they compared to what came before and speculate on what will come after them. I will always prefer the character writing from 1998-2009 versus 2010-2020. While Pontac and Graff may have made Sonic and Tails sound more like regular people, they stopped sounding like the characters that attracted me to this series. At this time Lost World remains my least favorite game plot, and unless something worse comes later that's going to always color my opinion of their work and this era. I am hopeful that whatever comes next, regardless of who's writing it, is more open to learning more about the characters' history and interacting with the fandom to smooth over any issues they come across. A sense of openness about their process would help alleviate a lot of the alienation folks experienced during this era.
  5. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Someguy in Archie Sonic Main Discussion   
    Over at Archie Sonic Online, we've got a handy, dandy reading order for your Archie Sonic comic needs!
    It depends on what you're interested in, but here's some spots I can recommend on where to start:
    - Sonic the Hedgehog Ltd. #0 - Where it all began. If you want to read everything and not have to worry about missing something, this is the place to start. Be aware that the series was very corny and comedy focused early on, so don't start here expecting action packed and dramatic stories from the get go.
    - Sonic the Hedgehog #25 - The adaptation of Sonic CD. This issue has great art by Patrick Spaziante and due to it's nature of being an adaptation of a popular game, might be more accessible to someone who isn't as familiar with the SatAM cast. It's also close to the start of when the series began to embrace the SatAM elements of the series more, so you'll be getting bigger stories with less of an emphasis on comedy (though there's still plenty at this point in the narrative).
    - Sonic the Hedgehog #160 - The start of writer Ian Flynn's run. While Ian embraced a lot of the series' history, he did so through the lens of Sega Sonic's sensibilities, writing to appeal more toward readers familiar with the game elements. Widely considered a good jumping on point.
    - Sonic the Hedgehog #219 - The beginning of the conflict involving Ixis Naugus as king. Let me be self indulgent for a second: maybe you want to read the currently ongoing ASO fan comics but want to have a clue what's going on with this Mecha Sally and King Naugus stuff, but don't want to track down hundreds of issues you may not be interested in. This is the real start of the last story the comics had been doing before the reboot happened, so you can focus on just this one arc, which is sorta ongoing and sorta-partially free online, without feeling like you're jumping into the deep end of the pool. Good if you're interested in the fan comics and want to know what's going on in them.
    - Sonic the Hedgehog #252 - The reboot. Maybe you've heard about the pre-reboot stories and don't think it's quite your thing - in particular if they don't seem enough like the games. You can always start with the reboot, which many considered a fresh start to the comics without aspects that didn't seem like they belonged. Also tells essentially one big story over the course of it's run, a quasi-adaptation of Sonic Unleashed, rather than various stories that reference what came before. You can see the whole order for that here.
    Your experience with Archie Sonic can be whatever you want out of it, so see what's a good fit for you. Happy reading!
  6. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Cuz in Archie Sonic Main Discussion   
    Over at Archie Sonic Online, we've got a handy, dandy reading order for your Archie Sonic comic needs!
    It depends on what you're interested in, but here's some spots I can recommend on where to start:
    - Sonic the Hedgehog Ltd. #0 - Where it all began. If you want to read everything and not have to worry about missing something, this is the place to start. Be aware that the series was very corny and comedy focused early on, so don't start here expecting action packed and dramatic stories from the get go.
    - Sonic the Hedgehog #25 - The adaptation of Sonic CD. This issue has great art by Patrick Spaziante and due to it's nature of being an adaptation of a popular game, might be more accessible to someone who isn't as familiar with the SatAM cast. It's also close to the start of when the series began to embrace the SatAM elements of the series more, so you'll be getting bigger stories with less of an emphasis on comedy (though there's still plenty at this point in the narrative).
    - Sonic the Hedgehog #160 - The start of writer Ian Flynn's run. While Ian embraced a lot of the series' history, he did so through the lens of Sega Sonic's sensibilities, writing to appeal more toward readers familiar with the game elements. Widely considered a good jumping on point.
    - Sonic the Hedgehog #219 - The beginning of the conflict involving Ixis Naugus as king. Let me be self indulgent for a second: maybe you want to read the currently ongoing ASO fan comics but want to have a clue what's going on with this Mecha Sally and King Naugus stuff, but don't want to track down hundreds of issues you may not be interested in. This is the real start of the last story the comics had been doing before the reboot happened, so you can focus on just this one arc, which is sorta ongoing and sorta-partially free online, without feeling like you're jumping into the deep end of the pool. Good if you're interested in the fan comics and want to know what's going on in them.
    - Sonic the Hedgehog #252 - The reboot. Maybe you've heard about the pre-reboot stories and don't think it's quite your thing - in particular if they don't seem enough like the games. You can always start with the reboot, which many considered a fresh start to the comics without aspects that didn't seem like they belonged. Also tells essentially one big story over the course of it's run, a quasi-adaptation of Sonic Unleashed, rather than various stories that reference what came before. You can see the whole order for that here.
    Your experience with Archie Sonic can be whatever you want out of it, so see what's a good fit for you. Happy reading!
  7. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Rabbitearsblog in Save Cosmo   
    So I'm a fan of Sonic X (I know, hard to imagine given my avatar,) so let's brainstorm for sec about what advantages Cosmo has that other characters don't and what potential roadblocks she might face.
    First, the pros. Cosmo is from Sonic X, which on we'll touch upon to the negative in a bit, but for now that means she was designed by Uekawa and Sonic Team. This is a huge point in her favor because that means Sega of Japan sees Cosmo as one of their creations, she showed up for at least a while routinely in Sonic Channel's fan art section, more than the American characters anyway (it's been a while since I looked at those, don't know if she's been featured recently or not) which shows at least someone on SoJ's staff still thinks about the character and indulges her fans. Cosmo's design itself apes a lot from the design of Lumina Flowlight from Sonic Shuffle, a character considered much more obscure and hasn't shown up in official media almost since her debut - cameos as cards in Sonic Rivals notwithstanding. As a result, Cosmo could be seen as a way to salvage aspects of Lumina and better connect her to the series proper. This would be similar to the philosophy Sega took with the Chaotix for their appearance in Sonic Heroes, meaning that Sega could see Cosmo as suitable for inclusion in the broader Sonic franchise already. While minor, certain elements from Sonic X have been adapted into the main series, even if we don't really see them often, such as the Chaotix's house from Sonic X being featured in the official comic for Vector on Sonic Channel during the 25th anniversary celebration and the two worlds, human and animal, connected via rings is seemingly similar to the portal used in episodes 50 and 53 of Sonic X. Lastly, we should also note Sonic X's longevity and popularity that persisted after the series finished. While Sonic X ended in 2006, television reruns persisted in the same time slot range as North American premieres until that venue closed in 2014, ending a nearly constant 11 year run on US television. That's not insignificant. The series' premiere digitally on Netflix and recent blu-ray release by Discotek are also signs that Sonic X's legacy has weight to it among casual fans making the series and its content ripe for continued exploit by Sega. TMS certainly seems to have no qualms about posting Sonic X clips routinely on their Youtube account.
    Next, the cons. Cosmo is from Sonic X, and therefore she's from another continuity. While I maintain that Sonic X has a lot going for it, at the end of the day Sega's official stance on stuff like the American comic books is that Sonic X content is not allowed to cross pollinate with the main series. This was true with Archie and it's still true with IDW. While Sonic X did have a long run post cancellation, the fact also remains that the series ceased releasing new episodes in 2006. That was 14 years ago. Unlike Sally and the Freedom Fighters whose history predated Sonic X's premiere by 10 years and continued making appearances for 10 years after Sonic X ended, Sonic X was promoted for only four years, with an additional two if you want to include the Archie Sonic X comic. That's a sizable period of relevance, and it outlasted Sonic's other television ventures, but it still is a long time to be without new products to promote beyond the other branches of the Sonic franchise. Another matter is Cosmo's limited appearances in Sonic X and the role she played in the series. Cosmo is not as synonymous with Sonic X the way say Chris is. Chris appears in the first episode, appears in the last episode, and is featured prominently as a main cast member throughout the series as a whole. Cosmo first appears in episode 53. While Cosmo is a main character in the show's third season, that still means she only appears in the last third of the series. That's significantly less time to stay relevant to the larger Sonic X sub brand. Cosmo only appears in the season produced exclusively for international audiences and not in the seasons produced for the domestic Japanese market. Cosmo has no merchandise produced of her to date. Beyond a head-shot cameo in one issue, Cosmo herself was not allowed to be featured in the Sonic X comic series. All of these things together, make it difficult to say that Cosmo is one of the most marketable aspects of Sonic X, even if fans are aware she's one of the more popular concepts. Finally there's Cosmo's role in season three, where she'd directly tied into the villain organization of the season and her story concludes with Tails being forced to kill her. Similar to the argument that Shadow has felt out of place since his story first ended in Sonic Adventure 2, Cosmo's current identity is tied to her portrayal and story beats as seen in Sonic X. This isn't like Sally being tied to SatAM or Archie, Cosmo's story begins with her introduction and ends with her death in Sonic X. While a Sega!Cosmo would obviously be her own thing, there is the fact that Sega would be utilizing a character who had previously already completed an arc and are now trying to find a right place for her. That's not easy to do, especially when her association with the Metarex is also not viable due to the Metarex also not appearing in the games.
    With all of that said, would I like Cosmo in the Sega-verse? Absolutely. Her simple but spontaneous personality is endearing and her relationship with Tails is super cute. Her design fits in with the rest of the cast well and her physical attributes with her petal dress would actually make for an interesting play style back when the supporting cast was allowed to be playable. But the pros and cons are both significant so I'm really not sure if Cosmo would actually be viable or not. Certainly doesn't hurt to ask though.
  8. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Kuzu in Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!   
    Sorry, Unleashed and prior feels so long ago it's getting hard to remember it's still considered "modern", especially since it predates the writing shift of bringing on Pontac and Graff in 2010, which itself is a decade ago. Like, obviously we all call 1998+ "Modern Sonic" due to how Sega has divided the game incarnations now, but it's still weird. But sorry, didn't meant to misrepresent what you meant.
    I believe someone can write a scenario where Sonic and Tails are at odds, my paragraph is simply about my issues with Lost World's plot specifically as it relates to keeping the characters consistent and believable. I'll go further, I believe that having a plot where Sonic and Tails are at odds is arguably a thematically relevant next step for their relationship after Sonic Adventure 2. Short of Tails getting his own game or a scenario completely independent of whatever Sonic is doing in a game, there's not a better way to demonstrate that Tails is progressing to become his own hero after SA2 while keeping him in the sidekick role. You can absolutely keep him in the sidekick role and have it still be in character, I believe Tails' role in Sonic Colors is probably the best out of the Pontaff era games in that regard, but the next step in his journey from the two Sonic Adventure games would be to do something heroic without Sonic still there leading by example. Let's take Lost World's premise and remix it a bit to something I think would make more sense in that regard. Sonic and Tails chase Eggman to Lost Hex just as they do in the main prologue, but like with the Egg Carrier fight in Sonic Adventure something happens and they get separated. This would be the ideal opportunity to have two campaigns for Sonic and Tails, finally giving fans a chance to play as Tails again, but it's not mandatory so long as Tails can have scenes without Sonic. Eggman throws Zazz at Sonic, Sonic dispatches with the Conch, and Sonic realizing he's made the Zeti a lot more of a threat agrees to side with Eggman under the assumption that Eggman was the only thing keeping the Zeti from being a mess. Meanwhile Tails is researching the island, he meets other inhabitants (other Zeti? a different race? maybe just the little animals) and sees what all Eggman has been doing to the environment. Sonic and Tails meet up, they've both come to drastically different conclusions about who the real threat is and you have your now much more justified argument and break off again. This culminates with Eggman taking over again following the Deadly Six's defeat only for Sonic and Tails to reconnect and finish off Eggman. Again, that's without any detail, but a rough idea on how you could try and rearrange Sonic Lost World to better fit the story it was trying to tell. There's nothing wrong with the concepts in Sonic Lost World, it just does them in the worst way possible.
  9. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Kuzu in Rally 4 Sally   
    I think it'd be the bees knees if Sally was a playable character in this mobile app that is adding Knuckles in a cowboy hat here soon. She could have a spinning dash that utilizes her ring blades as her Boost Item, a lightning shot seemingly from Nicole as her Projectile Item, and maybe some acorn shaped mine as her Trap Item. I also think it'd be just neat if at some point we have a game where Sonic finds her protesting a new golf course Eggman's built because she knows it's gotta be some new nefarious plot by him even though everyone besides her, Sonic, and whoever else of Sonic's friends are allowed to be around is giving him the benefit of the doubt. If that could lead to her riding around in an acorn shaped car in Team Sonic Racing 2 that'd be swell.
    Reasonable request? Incompatible with the canon? You make the call.
  10. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Celestia in Rally 4 Sally   
    I think it'd be the bees knees if Sally was a playable character in this mobile app that is adding Knuckles in a cowboy hat here soon. She could have a spinning dash that utilizes her ring blades as her Boost Item, a lightning shot seemingly from Nicole as her Projectile Item, and maybe some acorn shaped mine as her Trap Item. I also think it'd be just neat if at some point we have a game where Sonic finds her protesting a new golf course Eggman's built because she knows it's gotta be some new nefarious plot by him even though everyone besides her, Sonic, and whoever else of Sonic's friends are allowed to be around is giving him the benefit of the doubt. If that could lead to her riding around in an acorn shaped car in Team Sonic Racing 2 that'd be swell.
    Reasonable request? Incompatible with the canon? You make the call.
  11. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Zaysho in Rally 4 Sally   
    I think it'd be the bees knees if Sally was a playable character in this mobile app that is adding Knuckles in a cowboy hat here soon. She could have a spinning dash that utilizes her ring blades as her Boost Item, a lightning shot seemingly from Nicole as her Projectile Item, and maybe some acorn shaped mine as her Trap Item. I also think it'd be just neat if at some point we have a game where Sonic finds her protesting a new golf course Eggman's built because she knows it's gotta be some new nefarious plot by him even though everyone besides her, Sonic, and whoever else of Sonic's friends are allowed to be around is giving him the benefit of the doubt. If that could lead to her riding around in an acorn shaped car in Team Sonic Racing 2 that'd be swell.
    Reasonable request? Incompatible with the canon? You make the call.
  12. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Wraith in Rally 4 Sally   
    I think it'd be the bees knees if Sally was a playable character in this mobile app that is adding Knuckles in a cowboy hat here soon. She could have a spinning dash that utilizes her ring blades as her Boost Item, a lightning shot seemingly from Nicole as her Projectile Item, and maybe some acorn shaped mine as her Trap Item. I also think it'd be just neat if at some point we have a game where Sonic finds her protesting a new golf course Eggman's built because she knows it's gotta be some new nefarious plot by him even though everyone besides her, Sonic, and whoever else of Sonic's friends are allowed to be around is giving him the benefit of the doubt. If that could lead to her riding around in an acorn shaped car in Team Sonic Racing 2 that'd be swell.
    Reasonable request? Incompatible with the canon? You make the call.
  13. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Sean in Rally 4 Sally   
    I think it'd be the bees knees if Sally was a playable character in this mobile app that is adding Knuckles in a cowboy hat here soon. She could have a spinning dash that utilizes her ring blades as her Boost Item, a lightning shot seemingly from Nicole as her Projectile Item, and maybe some acorn shaped mine as her Trap Item. I also think it'd be just neat if at some point we have a game where Sonic finds her protesting a new golf course Eggman's built because she knows it's gotta be some new nefarious plot by him even though everyone besides her, Sonic, and whoever else of Sonic's friends are allowed to be around is giving him the benefit of the doubt. If that could lead to her riding around in an acorn shaped car in Team Sonic Racing 2 that'd be swell.
    Reasonable request? Incompatible with the canon? You make the call.
  14. Absolutely
    GentlemanX got a reaction from ChaddyFant9me in Rally 4 Sally   
    So this isn't the first time you called Sally a busybody and straight man in this thread, but I wanted to address this here because I think it comes to the crux of the problem we're having - I really don't agree with your view of Sally's character and I really don't agree with what you seem to think are essential components in her use. Let's talk about Sally in the context of SatAM for a second before talking about what her coming to the games would actually entail. SatAM Sonic, Tails, and Robotnik are not equivalent to Sega Sonic, Tails, and Eggman. I think pretty much everyone would agree with that, yeah? SatAM's premise is significantly different from the games and that has been the sticking point for it in the fandom since it's debut 27 years ago. Does SatAM still represent the spirit of the franchise even if it deviates so much in terms of premise? Maybe, depends who you ask. But pretty much everyone should be able to agree that regardless of what SatAM did to the Sonic formula, it adapted the characters to fit the premise it wanted to tell, at least as much as could be adapted when the only real examples of Sega Sonic were Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 at the time.
    Sonic's 90s rebel attitude and hip status were exaggerated making him difficult to talk to. Robotnik's angry "the man" persona and over industrialization were exaggerated to make him a cruel, cold, and controlling with the animals being made into badniks being adapted as roboticization. Tails' child like incompetence and struggles were adapted to make him younger than everyone else and therefore needing to be protected. These are all rooted in their game portrayals but significantly altered to fit the story they were telling. Sally was not created for Sega Sonic, she was created for SatAM Sonic and her personality there and in the Archie comics reflected that role. She was meant to help direct Sonic's recklessness, she was meant to take care of Tails, and she was meant to oppose Robotnik. Sally's character did not necessitate changes for the other characters, she was meant to play off the adapted personalities used in SatAM. Straight man I can kind of see, but calling her a busybody makes no sense to me. Of course she's going to be in Sonic's business, he's an impulsive soldier that can be of great benefit to her cause but just as likely will make a mistake that could cost them everything. She struggles with trusting him to do the right thing because it's her job to worry about all the different scenarios at play. This is why you have scenes where Bunnie is helping her remember that Sonic can be reckless but he also comes through when he needs to. Sally, and all of these characters, are much more three dimensional characters in SatAM than you seem to portray them as when talking about them.
    But that's all SatAM, something that is a beast all it's own. What about the actual topic? What about adding Sally to Sega Sonic? Unlike SatAM where Sonic, Tails, and Eggman were adapted to fit it's unique premise, we've got a reversal here. Sally needs to be modified to fit the universe in the Sega games. And I think Sally's inclusion is much easier to incorporate than you seem to think. In SatAM, Sally is a leader of a rebellion against a dictator. But save Forces, that premise is not present in the games. So you adapt that - she's not a leader of a rebellion but an activist pushing to help those in need. In SatAM she was meant to rein in Sonic's at times dangerously impulsive attitude. In the games, Sonic is much more focused on the plights of others and all Sally would need to do is tell him about something that needs his help. They can still banter; Sally pokes fun at how much fun Sonic's having and he laughs it off admitting as much. In SatAM you had an opposites attract kinda relationship between the two, but in Sega it'd be much more two like minded souls that feel comfortable around each other to just joke and take a quick break before getting back to business. How about Eggman? The plot of any game always involves taking down whatever plan Eggman's cooked up. The difference is that Eggman always loses in the end. He's not some unstoppable threat that they are constantly trying to overthrow, he comes up with some new scheme and has it blow up in his face. Would Sally take combating him more seriously than Sonic? Probably, and in a situation where Eggman has them cornered you might finally get a scene where Sally tells Sonic to be serious. But in general, she knows Eggman has been taken down before and can be again. She's going to be more relaxed with everyone than she was in SatAM. And Tails? In SatAM he was never allowed to leave Knothole. In the games he builds bi-planes in his spare time. They're shtick might be Sally would praising him for his work and him getting embarrassed about it. The two would also likely strategize with each other about what was the best way of accomplishing whatever was going on at the time.
    I can do this with all the characters - show how Sally's natural personality would bounce off the other Sega characters, show how you would adapt the other Freedom Fighters to fit the premise of Sega Sonic - it's really not difficult to consider ways of making this stuff work.
  15. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Mr Silvia in Save Cosmo   
    So I'm a fan of Sonic X (I know, hard to imagine given my avatar,) so let's brainstorm for sec about what advantages Cosmo has that other characters don't and what potential roadblocks she might face.
    First, the pros. Cosmo is from Sonic X, which on we'll touch upon to the negative in a bit, but for now that means she was designed by Uekawa and Sonic Team. This is a huge point in her favor because that means Sega of Japan sees Cosmo as one of their creations, she showed up for at least a while routinely in Sonic Channel's fan art section, more than the American characters anyway (it's been a while since I looked at those, don't know if she's been featured recently or not) which shows at least someone on SoJ's staff still thinks about the character and indulges her fans. Cosmo's design itself apes a lot from the design of Lumina Flowlight from Sonic Shuffle, a character considered much more obscure and hasn't shown up in official media almost since her debut - cameos as cards in Sonic Rivals notwithstanding. As a result, Cosmo could be seen as a way to salvage aspects of Lumina and better connect her to the series proper. This would be similar to the philosophy Sega took with the Chaotix for their appearance in Sonic Heroes, meaning that Sega could see Cosmo as suitable for inclusion in the broader Sonic franchise already. While minor, certain elements from Sonic X have been adapted into the main series, even if we don't really see them often, such as the Chaotix's house from Sonic X being featured in the official comic for Vector on Sonic Channel during the 25th anniversary celebration and the two worlds, human and animal, connected via rings is seemingly similar to the portal used in episodes 50 and 53 of Sonic X. Lastly, we should also note Sonic X's longevity and popularity that persisted after the series finished. While Sonic X ended in 2006, television reruns persisted in the same time slot range as North American premieres until that venue closed in 2014, ending a nearly constant 11 year run on US television. That's not insignificant. The series' premiere digitally on Netflix and recent blu-ray release by Discotek are also signs that Sonic X's legacy has weight to it among casual fans making the series and its content ripe for continued exploit by Sega. TMS certainly seems to have no qualms about posting Sonic X clips routinely on their Youtube account.
    Next, the cons. Cosmo is from Sonic X, and therefore she's from another continuity. While I maintain that Sonic X has a lot going for it, at the end of the day Sega's official stance on stuff like the American comic books is that Sonic X content is not allowed to cross pollinate with the main series. This was true with Archie and it's still true with IDW. While Sonic X did have a long run post cancellation, the fact also remains that the series ceased releasing new episodes in 2006. That was 14 years ago. Unlike Sally and the Freedom Fighters whose history predated Sonic X's premiere by 10 years and continued making appearances for 10 years after Sonic X ended, Sonic X was promoted for only four years, with an additional two if you want to include the Archie Sonic X comic. That's a sizable period of relevance, and it outlasted Sonic's other television ventures, but it still is a long time to be without new products to promote beyond the other branches of the Sonic franchise. Another matter is Cosmo's limited appearances in Sonic X and the role she played in the series. Cosmo is not as synonymous with Sonic X the way say Chris is. Chris appears in the first episode, appears in the last episode, and is featured prominently as a main cast member throughout the series as a whole. Cosmo first appears in episode 53. While Cosmo is a main character in the show's third season, that still means she only appears in the last third of the series. That's significantly less time to stay relevant to the larger Sonic X sub brand. Cosmo only appears in the season produced exclusively for international audiences and not in the seasons produced for the domestic Japanese market. Cosmo has no merchandise produced of her to date. Beyond a head-shot cameo in one issue, Cosmo herself was not allowed to be featured in the Sonic X comic series. All of these things together, make it difficult to say that Cosmo is one of the most marketable aspects of Sonic X, even if fans are aware she's one of the more popular concepts. Finally there's Cosmo's role in season three, where she'd directly tied into the villain organization of the season and her story concludes with Tails being forced to kill her. Similar to the argument that Shadow has felt out of place since his story first ended in Sonic Adventure 2, Cosmo's current identity is tied to her portrayal and story beats as seen in Sonic X. This isn't like Sally being tied to SatAM or Archie, Cosmo's story begins with her introduction and ends with her death in Sonic X. While a Sega!Cosmo would obviously be her own thing, there is the fact that Sega would be utilizing a character who had previously already completed an arc and are now trying to find a right place for her. That's not easy to do, especially when her association with the Metarex is also not viable due to the Metarex also not appearing in the games.
    With all of that said, would I like Cosmo in the Sega-verse? Absolutely. Her simple but spontaneous personality is endearing and her relationship with Tails is super cute. Her design fits in with the rest of the cast well and her physical attributes with her petal dress would actually make for an interesting play style back when the supporting cast was allowed to be playable. But the pros and cons are both significant so I'm really not sure if Cosmo would actually be viable or not. Certainly doesn't hurt to ask though.
  16. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX reacted to Kuzu in Rally 4 Sally   
    One of my favorite YouTube channels put up a video about Sally.
    Touches upon a lot of the reasons she's such a divisive character and echoed my feelings when I first discovered the character.
    And even talks about the potential the character has under the right pen, if Sega and the fanbase were just a bit more open-minded about her existence.
  17. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from DabigRG in Rally 4 Sally   
    So I want to bring up some characters that I think might demonstrate the pros and cons of both angles for the Freedom Fighters.

    You guys love the Koopalings? I do. A lot of people do. Many people are apathetic toward them. And when they were playable in Mario Kart 8 a lot of people were outright frustrated by them because of the number of character slots they took up. So they run the gambit of emotions from folks. But back when they were introduced in Super Mario Bros. 3, I gather it was a big deal. I didn't play Mario 3 as I never got it or a re-release. My first exposure to the Koopalings was actually the Nintendo Adventure Books. For those unaware, they were a series of children's choose-your-own-adventure books where you got to decide what Mario or another character would do, go to the page indicated, and see what the result of your choice brought. My local library had books one and three: Double Trouble and Monster Mix-Up. Anyway, I loved those books and were some of the first Mario content I consumed after Super Mario 64. Little did I know it'd be a long time before I would be able to get a new game with the Koopalings in it. After the characters reappeared in Super Mario World, they were completely dropped from the series. While they appeared in two high profile games, Mario 3 and Mario World, the characters were best known for being in Western media such as the Nintendo Adventure Books and comics, the DiC television series, and even some Western developed games like Mario is Missing and Hotel Mario. Sound familiar?
    As far as relevant games go, 13 years after their appearance in Super Mario World, the Koopalings were used in Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga - the first entry in the yet unproven Mario & Luigi series. After that, they'd disappear again for another six years before their return to the Mario series in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Since then, the Koopalings appear in all sorts of stuff. Mario & Luigi, New Super Mario Bros., Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros., some even appear in our own Mario & Sonic series! So what happened? Why were they brought back after so long? Because fans asked for them - a lot! But bringing them back resulted in changes and those changes angered a lot of their fans. The Koopalings were originally introduced as Bowser's children, and that fact appeared in all of the promotional material they appeared in such as the cartoons and print media. But during their absence, Nintendo introduced Bowser Jr. as Bowser's one and only son. So when the Koopalings were brought back, it was stated definitively that they were no now longer Bowser's children, but his minions. This didn't go over well with fans, and there are still people angry about this change.
    But you know what change people are also still angry about? That he's called Dr. Eggman and not Dr. Robotnik. That is still such a big deal that the recent Hollywood blockbuster that took 2020 by storm had him called Dr. Robotnik. And that's cool, but most fans really don't care at this point. Most are perfectly happy calling him Dr. Eggman, or acknowledging that he's called Dr. Eggman at the very least. And that's true of the Koopalings as well. There are still people angry that they aren't Bowser's kids anymore, but most Koopalings fans like myself are incredibly enthusiastic that they're appearing at all. While some hated that the Koopalings took up seven slots in Mario Kart 8, I loved it. I finally got to play as these characters I read and knew about from before I was in grade school. They're in Super Smash Bros., one of the biggest titles on the market, and it's fun seeing them beat up characters infinitely more popular than them. And it's all because people, their fans, continued to ask Nintendo to bring them back.
    The Freedom Fighters aren't the Koopalings. There are many notable changes to them. The Koopalings were developed by the team at Nintendo in Japan and first appeared in one of, it not the, most popular Mario game of all time. The Freedom Fighters were developed by Sega of America and DiC for an American television series which during development it was decided to give it a promotional comic book tie-in product. They were then given cameos in a Sega Technical Institute spin-off game also as promotion for the television series that came out that same year. The character that was by far the most popular, Sally, received a three-issue comic mini-series to test her popularity and it didn't do well enough to become an ongoing or receive another mini-series. She and Bunnie and Rotor are only slightly based off of the little animals in Sonic 1 with Sally being the only one to actual share the name of the animal she's based off of - Antoine isn't even that connected and didn't appear in Spinball. She did appear at Sega World Sydney due to her being more recognizable outside of Japan than Amy Rose at the time. Sega is aware of this popularity and would continue to give her special treatment in the Archie Comics due to her popularity which Ian has confirmed multiple times in the past. But the point remains, they aren't the Koopalings and there are significantly different circumstances behind their revival and possible revival respectively.
    I can only speak for myself, but if I could get Sally Acorn in a NPC role in a Sonic game where she's fighting for a just cause, meets Sonic, he agrees to help her and all we get is her complimenting him while poking fun at his sense of humor which he finds jokingly unnecessary? I'd love that. If that meant she'd get Uekawa artwork on Sonic Channel with a profile telling me she's an activist? I'd love that. If that meant she could be an unlockable or DLC character in Team Sonic Racing 2 where's she's driving a Bug with an Acorn on it? I'd be over the moon. If it meant giving up her status as a princess, giving up her struggles against an evil dictator, giving up her ability place as a leader of a specific team, and giving up on her being the love interest and second most important character in the narrative? I'd be fine with it. Because at least they're doing something with her of value. Because I get to see her doing new things in new material.
    If Sega brought back the Archie book and IDW started publishing as if the cancellation never happened, or the reboot never happened, or if Sega decided to make a third season of SatAM that picks up from the cliffhanger - I'd be over the moon too. But none of those things exist, and they certainly aren't going to exist if Sega doesn't even believe Sally or the Freedom Fighters are worth putting in a mobile game where I can currently play as Shadow dressed up like a vampire. Koopalings fans were happy that they showed up in a spin-off game, then they were happy when they came back completely, and now they're in everything and the only thing they can still ask for is for Nintendo to make them Bowser's kids again. I'd love if the only request Sally fans had was that they want her to be a princess fighting dictator Dr. Robotnik out of Knothole Village on Planet Mobius. Because that'd mean they wanted SatAM's premise used again, rather than just anything from it.
  18. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Wraith in Rally 4 Sally   
    So this isn't the first time you called Sally a busybody and straight man in this thread, but I wanted to address this here because I think it comes to the crux of the problem we're having - I really don't agree with your view of Sally's character and I really don't agree with what you seem to think are essential components in her use. Let's talk about Sally in the context of SatAM for a second before talking about what her coming to the games would actually entail. SatAM Sonic, Tails, and Robotnik are not equivalent to Sega Sonic, Tails, and Eggman. I think pretty much everyone would agree with that, yeah? SatAM's premise is significantly different from the games and that has been the sticking point for it in the fandom since it's debut 27 years ago. Does SatAM still represent the spirit of the franchise even if it deviates so much in terms of premise? Maybe, depends who you ask. But pretty much everyone should be able to agree that regardless of what SatAM did to the Sonic formula, it adapted the characters to fit the premise it wanted to tell, at least as much as could be adapted when the only real examples of Sega Sonic were Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 at the time.
    Sonic's 90s rebel attitude and hip status were exaggerated making him difficult to talk to. Robotnik's angry "the man" persona and over industrialization were exaggerated to make him a cruel, cold, and controlling with the animals being made into badniks being adapted as roboticization. Tails' child like incompetence and struggles were adapted to make him younger than everyone else and therefore needing to be protected. These are all rooted in their game portrayals but significantly altered to fit the story they were telling. Sally was not created for Sega Sonic, she was created for SatAM Sonic and her personality there and in the Archie comics reflected that role. She was meant to help direct Sonic's recklessness, she was meant to take care of Tails, and she was meant to oppose Robotnik. Sally's character did not necessitate changes for the other characters, she was meant to play off the adapted personalities used in SatAM. Straight man I can kind of see, but calling her a busybody makes no sense to me. Of course she's going to be in Sonic's business, he's an impulsive soldier that can be of great benefit to her cause but just as likely will make a mistake that could cost them everything. She struggles with trusting him to do the right thing because it's her job to worry about all the different scenarios at play. This is why you have scenes where Bunnie is helping her remember that Sonic can be reckless but he also comes through when he needs to. Sally, and all of these characters, are much more three dimensional characters in SatAM than you seem to portray them as when talking about them.
    But that's all SatAM, something that is a beast all it's own. What about the actual topic? What about adding Sally to Sega Sonic? Unlike SatAM where Sonic, Tails, and Eggman were adapted to fit it's unique premise, we've got a reversal here. Sally needs to be modified to fit the universe in the Sega games. And I think Sally's inclusion is much easier to incorporate than you seem to think. In SatAM, Sally is a leader of a rebellion against a dictator. But save Forces, that premise is not present in the games. So you adapt that - she's not a leader of a rebellion but an activist pushing to help those in need. In SatAM she was meant to rein in Sonic's at times dangerously impulsive attitude. In the games, Sonic is much more focused on the plights of others and all Sally would need to do is tell him about something that needs his help. They can still banter; Sally pokes fun at how much fun Sonic's having and he laughs it off admitting as much. In SatAM you had an opposites attract kinda relationship between the two, but in Sega it'd be much more two like minded souls that feel comfortable around each other to just joke and take a quick break before getting back to business. How about Eggman? The plot of any game always involves taking down whatever plan Eggman's cooked up. The difference is that Eggman always loses in the end. He's not some unstoppable threat that they are constantly trying to overthrow, he comes up with some new scheme and has it blow up in his face. Would Sally take combating him more seriously than Sonic? Probably, and in a situation where Eggman has them cornered you might finally get a scene where Sally tells Sonic to be serious. But in general, she knows Eggman has been taken down before and can be again. She's going to be more relaxed with everyone than she was in SatAM. And Tails? In SatAM he was never allowed to leave Knothole. In the games he builds bi-planes in his spare time. They're shtick might be Sally would praising him for his work and him getting embarrassed about it. The two would also likely strategize with each other about what was the best way of accomplishing whatever was going on at the time.
    I can do this with all the characters - show how Sally's natural personality would bounce off the other Sega characters, show how you would adapt the other Freedom Fighters to fit the premise of Sega Sonic - it's really not difficult to consider ways of making this stuff work.
  19. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Mr Silvia in Rally 4 Sally   
    So this isn't the first time you called Sally a busybody and straight man in this thread, but I wanted to address this here because I think it comes to the crux of the problem we're having - I really don't agree with your view of Sally's character and I really don't agree with what you seem to think are essential components in her use. Let's talk about Sally in the context of SatAM for a second before talking about what her coming to the games would actually entail. SatAM Sonic, Tails, and Robotnik are not equivalent to Sega Sonic, Tails, and Eggman. I think pretty much everyone would agree with that, yeah? SatAM's premise is significantly different from the games and that has been the sticking point for it in the fandom since it's debut 27 years ago. Does SatAM still represent the spirit of the franchise even if it deviates so much in terms of premise? Maybe, depends who you ask. But pretty much everyone should be able to agree that regardless of what SatAM did to the Sonic formula, it adapted the characters to fit the premise it wanted to tell, at least as much as could be adapted when the only real examples of Sega Sonic were Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 at the time.
    Sonic's 90s rebel attitude and hip status were exaggerated making him difficult to talk to. Robotnik's angry "the man" persona and over industrialization were exaggerated to make him a cruel, cold, and controlling with the animals being made into badniks being adapted as roboticization. Tails' child like incompetence and struggles were adapted to make him younger than everyone else and therefore needing to be protected. These are all rooted in their game portrayals but significantly altered to fit the story they were telling. Sally was not created for Sega Sonic, she was created for SatAM Sonic and her personality there and in the Archie comics reflected that role. She was meant to help direct Sonic's recklessness, she was meant to take care of Tails, and she was meant to oppose Robotnik. Sally's character did not necessitate changes for the other characters, she was meant to play off the adapted personalities used in SatAM. Straight man I can kind of see, but calling her a busybody makes no sense to me. Of course she's going to be in Sonic's business, he's an impulsive soldier that can be of great benefit to her cause but just as likely will make a mistake that could cost them everything. She struggles with trusting him to do the right thing because it's her job to worry about all the different scenarios at play. This is why you have scenes where Bunnie is helping her remember that Sonic can be reckless but he also comes through when he needs to. Sally, and all of these characters, are much more three dimensional characters in SatAM than you seem to portray them as when talking about them.
    But that's all SatAM, something that is a beast all it's own. What about the actual topic? What about adding Sally to Sega Sonic? Unlike SatAM where Sonic, Tails, and Eggman were adapted to fit it's unique premise, we've got a reversal here. Sally needs to be modified to fit the universe in the Sega games. And I think Sally's inclusion is much easier to incorporate than you seem to think. In SatAM, Sally is a leader of a rebellion against a dictator. But save Forces, that premise is not present in the games. So you adapt that - she's not a leader of a rebellion but an activist pushing to help those in need. In SatAM she was meant to rein in Sonic's at times dangerously impulsive attitude. In the games, Sonic is much more focused on the plights of others and all Sally would need to do is tell him about something that needs his help. They can still banter; Sally pokes fun at how much fun Sonic's having and he laughs it off admitting as much. In SatAM you had an opposites attract kinda relationship between the two, but in Sega it'd be much more two like minded souls that feel comfortable around each other to just joke and take a quick break before getting back to business. How about Eggman? The plot of any game always involves taking down whatever plan Eggman's cooked up. The difference is that Eggman always loses in the end. He's not some unstoppable threat that they are constantly trying to overthrow, he comes up with some new scheme and has it blow up in his face. Would Sally take combating him more seriously than Sonic? Probably, and in a situation where Eggman has them cornered you might finally get a scene where Sally tells Sonic to be serious. But in general, she knows Eggman has been taken down before and can be again. She's going to be more relaxed with everyone than she was in SatAM. And Tails? In SatAM he was never allowed to leave Knothole. In the games he builds bi-planes in his spare time. They're shtick might be Sally would praising him for his work and him getting embarrassed about it. The two would also likely strategize with each other about what was the best way of accomplishing whatever was going on at the time.
    I can do this with all the characters - show how Sally's natural personality would bounce off the other Sega characters, show how you would adapt the other Freedom Fighters to fit the premise of Sega Sonic - it's really not difficult to consider ways of making this stuff work.
  20. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Kuzu in Rally 4 Sally   
    So this isn't the first time you called Sally a busybody and straight man in this thread, but I wanted to address this here because I think it comes to the crux of the problem we're having - I really don't agree with your view of Sally's character and I really don't agree with what you seem to think are essential components in her use. Let's talk about Sally in the context of SatAM for a second before talking about what her coming to the games would actually entail. SatAM Sonic, Tails, and Robotnik are not equivalent to Sega Sonic, Tails, and Eggman. I think pretty much everyone would agree with that, yeah? SatAM's premise is significantly different from the games and that has been the sticking point for it in the fandom since it's debut 27 years ago. Does SatAM still represent the spirit of the franchise even if it deviates so much in terms of premise? Maybe, depends who you ask. But pretty much everyone should be able to agree that regardless of what SatAM did to the Sonic formula, it adapted the characters to fit the premise it wanted to tell, at least as much as could be adapted when the only real examples of Sega Sonic were Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 at the time.
    Sonic's 90s rebel attitude and hip status were exaggerated making him difficult to talk to. Robotnik's angry "the man" persona and over industrialization were exaggerated to make him a cruel, cold, and controlling with the animals being made into badniks being adapted as roboticization. Tails' child like incompetence and struggles were adapted to make him younger than everyone else and therefore needing to be protected. These are all rooted in their game portrayals but significantly altered to fit the story they were telling. Sally was not created for Sega Sonic, she was created for SatAM Sonic and her personality there and in the Archie comics reflected that role. She was meant to help direct Sonic's recklessness, she was meant to take care of Tails, and she was meant to oppose Robotnik. Sally's character did not necessitate changes for the other characters, she was meant to play off the adapted personalities used in SatAM. Straight man I can kind of see, but calling her a busybody makes no sense to me. Of course she's going to be in Sonic's business, he's an impulsive soldier that can be of great benefit to her cause but just as likely will make a mistake that could cost them everything. She struggles with trusting him to do the right thing because it's her job to worry about all the different scenarios at play. This is why you have scenes where Bunnie is helping her remember that Sonic can be reckless but he also comes through when he needs to. Sally, and all of these characters, are much more three dimensional characters in SatAM than you seem to portray them as when talking about them.
    But that's all SatAM, something that is a beast all it's own. What about the actual topic? What about adding Sally to Sega Sonic? Unlike SatAM where Sonic, Tails, and Eggman were adapted to fit it's unique premise, we've got a reversal here. Sally needs to be modified to fit the universe in the Sega games. And I think Sally's inclusion is much easier to incorporate than you seem to think. In SatAM, Sally is a leader of a rebellion against a dictator. But save Forces, that premise is not present in the games. So you adapt that - she's not a leader of a rebellion but an activist pushing to help those in need. In SatAM she was meant to rein in Sonic's at times dangerously impulsive attitude. In the games, Sonic is much more focused on the plights of others and all Sally would need to do is tell him about something that needs his help. They can still banter; Sally pokes fun at how much fun Sonic's having and he laughs it off admitting as much. In SatAM you had an opposites attract kinda relationship between the two, but in Sega it'd be much more two like minded souls that feel comfortable around each other to just joke and take a quick break before getting back to business. How about Eggman? The plot of any game always involves taking down whatever plan Eggman's cooked up. The difference is that Eggman always loses in the end. He's not some unstoppable threat that they are constantly trying to overthrow, he comes up with some new scheme and has it blow up in his face. Would Sally take combating him more seriously than Sonic? Probably, and in a situation where Eggman has them cornered you might finally get a scene where Sally tells Sonic to be serious. But in general, she knows Eggman has been taken down before and can be again. She's going to be more relaxed with everyone than she was in SatAM. And Tails? In SatAM he was never allowed to leave Knothole. In the games he builds bi-planes in his spare time. They're shtick might be Sally would praising him for his work and him getting embarrassed about it. The two would also likely strategize with each other about what was the best way of accomplishing whatever was going on at the time.
    I can do this with all the characters - show how Sally's natural personality would bounce off the other Sega characters, show how you would adapt the other Freedom Fighters to fit the premise of Sega Sonic - it's really not difficult to consider ways of making this stuff work.
  21. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from CrownSlayer’s Shadow in Rally 4 Sally   
    So this isn't the first time you called Sally a busybody and straight man in this thread, but I wanted to address this here because I think it comes to the crux of the problem we're having - I really don't agree with your view of Sally's character and I really don't agree with what you seem to think are essential components in her use. Let's talk about Sally in the context of SatAM for a second before talking about what her coming to the games would actually entail. SatAM Sonic, Tails, and Robotnik are not equivalent to Sega Sonic, Tails, and Eggman. I think pretty much everyone would agree with that, yeah? SatAM's premise is significantly different from the games and that has been the sticking point for it in the fandom since it's debut 27 years ago. Does SatAM still represent the spirit of the franchise even if it deviates so much in terms of premise? Maybe, depends who you ask. But pretty much everyone should be able to agree that regardless of what SatAM did to the Sonic formula, it adapted the characters to fit the premise it wanted to tell, at least as much as could be adapted when the only real examples of Sega Sonic were Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 at the time.
    Sonic's 90s rebel attitude and hip status were exaggerated making him difficult to talk to. Robotnik's angry "the man" persona and over industrialization were exaggerated to make him a cruel, cold, and controlling with the animals being made into badniks being adapted as roboticization. Tails' child like incompetence and struggles were adapted to make him younger than everyone else and therefore needing to be protected. These are all rooted in their game portrayals but significantly altered to fit the story they were telling. Sally was not created for Sega Sonic, she was created for SatAM Sonic and her personality there and in the Archie comics reflected that role. She was meant to help direct Sonic's recklessness, she was meant to take care of Tails, and she was meant to oppose Robotnik. Sally's character did not necessitate changes for the other characters, she was meant to play off the adapted personalities used in SatAM. Straight man I can kind of see, but calling her a busybody makes no sense to me. Of course she's going to be in Sonic's business, he's an impulsive soldier that can be of great benefit to her cause but just as likely will make a mistake that could cost them everything. She struggles with trusting him to do the right thing because it's her job to worry about all the different scenarios at play. This is why you have scenes where Bunnie is helping her remember that Sonic can be reckless but he also comes through when he needs to. Sally, and all of these characters, are much more three dimensional characters in SatAM than you seem to portray them as when talking about them.
    But that's all SatAM, something that is a beast all it's own. What about the actual topic? What about adding Sally to Sega Sonic? Unlike SatAM where Sonic, Tails, and Eggman were adapted to fit it's unique premise, we've got a reversal here. Sally needs to be modified to fit the universe in the Sega games. And I think Sally's inclusion is much easier to incorporate than you seem to think. In SatAM, Sally is a leader of a rebellion against a dictator. But save Forces, that premise is not present in the games. So you adapt that - she's not a leader of a rebellion but an activist pushing to help those in need. In SatAM she was meant to rein in Sonic's at times dangerously impulsive attitude. In the games, Sonic is much more focused on the plights of others and all Sally would need to do is tell him about something that needs his help. They can still banter; Sally pokes fun at how much fun Sonic's having and he laughs it off admitting as much. In SatAM you had an opposites attract kinda relationship between the two, but in Sega it'd be much more two like minded souls that feel comfortable around each other to just joke and take a quick break before getting back to business. How about Eggman? The plot of any game always involves taking down whatever plan Eggman's cooked up. The difference is that Eggman always loses in the end. He's not some unstoppable threat that they are constantly trying to overthrow, he comes up with some new scheme and has it blow up in his face. Would Sally take combating him more seriously than Sonic? Probably, and in a situation where Eggman has them cornered you might finally get a scene where Sally tells Sonic to be serious. But in general, she knows Eggman has been taken down before and can be again. She's going to be more relaxed with everyone than she was in SatAM. And Tails? In SatAM he was never allowed to leave Knothole. In the games he builds bi-planes in his spare time. They're shtick might be Sally would praising him for his work and him getting embarrassed about it. The two would also likely strategize with each other about what was the best way of accomplishing whatever was going on at the time.
    I can do this with all the characters - show how Sally's natural personality would bounce off the other Sega characters, show how you would adapt the other Freedom Fighters to fit the premise of Sega Sonic - it's really not difficult to consider ways of making this stuff work.
  22. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Zaysho in Rally 4 Sally   
    So this isn't the first time you called Sally a busybody and straight man in this thread, but I wanted to address this here because I think it comes to the crux of the problem we're having - I really don't agree with your view of Sally's character and I really don't agree with what you seem to think are essential components in her use. Let's talk about Sally in the context of SatAM for a second before talking about what her coming to the games would actually entail. SatAM Sonic, Tails, and Robotnik are not equivalent to Sega Sonic, Tails, and Eggman. I think pretty much everyone would agree with that, yeah? SatAM's premise is significantly different from the games and that has been the sticking point for it in the fandom since it's debut 27 years ago. Does SatAM still represent the spirit of the franchise even if it deviates so much in terms of premise? Maybe, depends who you ask. But pretty much everyone should be able to agree that regardless of what SatAM did to the Sonic formula, it adapted the characters to fit the premise it wanted to tell, at least as much as could be adapted when the only real examples of Sega Sonic were Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 at the time.
    Sonic's 90s rebel attitude and hip status were exaggerated making him difficult to talk to. Robotnik's angry "the man" persona and over industrialization were exaggerated to make him a cruel, cold, and controlling with the animals being made into badniks being adapted as roboticization. Tails' child like incompetence and struggles were adapted to make him younger than everyone else and therefore needing to be protected. These are all rooted in their game portrayals but significantly altered to fit the story they were telling. Sally was not created for Sega Sonic, she was created for SatAM Sonic and her personality there and in the Archie comics reflected that role. She was meant to help direct Sonic's recklessness, she was meant to take care of Tails, and she was meant to oppose Robotnik. Sally's character did not necessitate changes for the other characters, she was meant to play off the adapted personalities used in SatAM. Straight man I can kind of see, but calling her a busybody makes no sense to me. Of course she's going to be in Sonic's business, he's an impulsive soldier that can be of great benefit to her cause but just as likely will make a mistake that could cost them everything. She struggles with trusting him to do the right thing because it's her job to worry about all the different scenarios at play. This is why you have scenes where Bunnie is helping her remember that Sonic can be reckless but he also comes through when he needs to. Sally, and all of these characters, are much more three dimensional characters in SatAM than you seem to portray them as when talking about them.
    But that's all SatAM, something that is a beast all it's own. What about the actual topic? What about adding Sally to Sega Sonic? Unlike SatAM where Sonic, Tails, and Eggman were adapted to fit it's unique premise, we've got a reversal here. Sally needs to be modified to fit the universe in the Sega games. And I think Sally's inclusion is much easier to incorporate than you seem to think. In SatAM, Sally is a leader of a rebellion against a dictator. But save Forces, that premise is not present in the games. So you adapt that - she's not a leader of a rebellion but an activist pushing to help those in need. In SatAM she was meant to rein in Sonic's at times dangerously impulsive attitude. In the games, Sonic is much more focused on the plights of others and all Sally would need to do is tell him about something that needs his help. They can still banter; Sally pokes fun at how much fun Sonic's having and he laughs it off admitting as much. In SatAM you had an opposites attract kinda relationship between the two, but in Sega it'd be much more two like minded souls that feel comfortable around each other to just joke and take a quick break before getting back to business. How about Eggman? The plot of any game always involves taking down whatever plan Eggman's cooked up. The difference is that Eggman always loses in the end. He's not some unstoppable threat that they are constantly trying to overthrow, he comes up with some new scheme and has it blow up in his face. Would Sally take combating him more seriously than Sonic? Probably, and in a situation where Eggman has them cornered you might finally get a scene where Sally tells Sonic to be serious. But in general, she knows Eggman has been taken down before and can be again. She's going to be more relaxed with everyone than she was in SatAM. And Tails? In SatAM he was never allowed to leave Knothole. In the games he builds bi-planes in his spare time. They're shtick might be Sally would praising him for his work and him getting embarrassed about it. The two would also likely strategize with each other about what was the best way of accomplishing whatever was going on at the time.
    I can do this with all the characters - show how Sally's natural personality would bounce off the other Sega characters, show how you would adapt the other Freedom Fighters to fit the premise of Sega Sonic - it's really not difficult to consider ways of making this stuff work.
  23. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Sean in Rally 4 Sally   
    So this isn't the first time you called Sally a busybody and straight man in this thread, but I wanted to address this here because I think it comes to the crux of the problem we're having - I really don't agree with your view of Sally's character and I really don't agree with what you seem to think are essential components in her use. Let's talk about Sally in the context of SatAM for a second before talking about what her coming to the games would actually entail. SatAM Sonic, Tails, and Robotnik are not equivalent to Sega Sonic, Tails, and Eggman. I think pretty much everyone would agree with that, yeah? SatAM's premise is significantly different from the games and that has been the sticking point for it in the fandom since it's debut 27 years ago. Does SatAM still represent the spirit of the franchise even if it deviates so much in terms of premise? Maybe, depends who you ask. But pretty much everyone should be able to agree that regardless of what SatAM did to the Sonic formula, it adapted the characters to fit the premise it wanted to tell, at least as much as could be adapted when the only real examples of Sega Sonic were Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 at the time.
    Sonic's 90s rebel attitude and hip status were exaggerated making him difficult to talk to. Robotnik's angry "the man" persona and over industrialization were exaggerated to make him a cruel, cold, and controlling with the animals being made into badniks being adapted as roboticization. Tails' child like incompetence and struggles were adapted to make him younger than everyone else and therefore needing to be protected. These are all rooted in their game portrayals but significantly altered to fit the story they were telling. Sally was not created for Sega Sonic, she was created for SatAM Sonic and her personality there and in the Archie comics reflected that role. She was meant to help direct Sonic's recklessness, she was meant to take care of Tails, and she was meant to oppose Robotnik. Sally's character did not necessitate changes for the other characters, she was meant to play off the adapted personalities used in SatAM. Straight man I can kind of see, but calling her a busybody makes no sense to me. Of course she's going to be in Sonic's business, he's an impulsive soldier that can be of great benefit to her cause but just as likely will make a mistake that could cost them everything. She struggles with trusting him to do the right thing because it's her job to worry about all the different scenarios at play. This is why you have scenes where Bunnie is helping her remember that Sonic can be reckless but he also comes through when he needs to. Sally, and all of these characters, are much more three dimensional characters in SatAM than you seem to portray them as when talking about them.
    But that's all SatAM, something that is a beast all it's own. What about the actual topic? What about adding Sally to Sega Sonic? Unlike SatAM where Sonic, Tails, and Eggman were adapted to fit it's unique premise, we've got a reversal here. Sally needs to be modified to fit the universe in the Sega games. And I think Sally's inclusion is much easier to incorporate than you seem to think. In SatAM, Sally is a leader of a rebellion against a dictator. But save Forces, that premise is not present in the games. So you adapt that - she's not a leader of a rebellion but an activist pushing to help those in need. In SatAM she was meant to rein in Sonic's at times dangerously impulsive attitude. In the games, Sonic is much more focused on the plights of others and all Sally would need to do is tell him about something that needs his help. They can still banter; Sally pokes fun at how much fun Sonic's having and he laughs it off admitting as much. In SatAM you had an opposites attract kinda relationship between the two, but in Sega it'd be much more two like minded souls that feel comfortable around each other to just joke and take a quick break before getting back to business. How about Eggman? The plot of any game always involves taking down whatever plan Eggman's cooked up. The difference is that Eggman always loses in the end. He's not some unstoppable threat that they are constantly trying to overthrow, he comes up with some new scheme and has it blow up in his face. Would Sally take combating him more seriously than Sonic? Probably, and in a situation where Eggman has them cornered you might finally get a scene where Sally tells Sonic to be serious. But in general, she knows Eggman has been taken down before and can be again. She's going to be more relaxed with everyone than she was in SatAM. And Tails? In SatAM he was never allowed to leave Knothole. In the games he builds bi-planes in his spare time. They're shtick might be Sally would praising him for his work and him getting embarrassed about it. The two would also likely strategize with each other about what was the best way of accomplishing whatever was going on at the time.
    I can do this with all the characters - show how Sally's natural personality would bounce off the other Sega characters, show how you would adapt the other Freedom Fighters to fit the premise of Sega Sonic - it's really not difficult to consider ways of making this stuff work.
  24. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX reacted to Sean in The full version of Look-a-Like has been found   
    Courtesy of illuminor, uploaded by Mefiresu.
    1:37 to 2:07 contains a verse that can only be heard during the scene in which the gang is heading towards Robotropolis.
  25. Thumbs Up
    GentlemanX got a reaction from Mr Silvia in Rally 4 Sally   
    At the time, Ian and company said everything in the OVA was off limits to them either because Sega said so or because the OVA was owned by Studio Pierrot. This even extended as far as Knuckles' iconic hat, which is why folks like Ian and Jon were so crazy excited when Treasure Hunter Knuckles got announced for Sonic Dash. If there were any rights issues they seem to have been resolved and Sega seems okay with at least some of their branches now using content from it, the live stream even talked about it at length last episode asking if fans had seen it and noting fans seemed to want a rerelease. This could be for a variety of reasons. If I were to speculate, I'd say it might be due to the popularity of Hesse's animations for Mania, both the initial trailers and opening and then later Mania Adventures. Those are all clearly heavily inspired by the OVA and the Sonic CD opening and I think they decided that meant the OVA was worth dusting off the shelf.
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