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Speedi

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About Speedi

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    Nandattebayo!

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    Video games, Anime, and Fanfiction.
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    Male
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    United States

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    Idiot Mikel#7794
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    SonicSpeed432
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    Speedi
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    @Not_Speedi
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  1. Not sure if this is counts as a "hot take" or whatever but personally I've always saw the Sonic series as more action oriented then a straight up platformer with emphasis on speed. Even in the classic quadrilogy (1 to a lesser extent) the level design felt to me like it was more focused on having unique set pieces and challenges that weren't usually about jumping across gaps between land. And honestly, most of my least favorite Sonic games are the ones that end up trying too hard to be a platformer by ditching the energy and action in favor of something more Mario-y (specifically the 2D games). You can criticize Sonic's many gameplay styles for a lot of reasons but imo not having enough platforming was a point that never made sense to me. Granted, I have no idea how semantic-y this is because I'm sure people have their own interpretation of the line between platforming and action, but that's just how I feel about the whole thing.

    1. Diogenes

      Diogenes

      to me platforming isn't about literal platform-jumping specifically but about movement where gravity is a major concern, and i think that covers nearly everything about the classic games aside from bosses (kinda) and some bonus/special stages (deliberate breaks from the core gameplay). at a basic level jumping fights gravity, obviously, but slope physics are also an expression of gravity and the fight with it, slowing you down or speeding you up depending on direction, modified by whether you're running or rolling, and affecting the angle of your jumps.

      talking about sonic needing more platforming, it's not that sonic games should play specifically like mario (though i think there is a lot it could learn from mario) but that it's not putting freedom of movement and the constant fight with gravity in the forefront.

    2. Kuzu

      Kuzu

      I went over this on Retro yesterday, but there's a bit of a divide about if you should consider Sonic as a platformer versus considering him a stylish action series of set pieces. 

      Sonic games have always had roots in Arcade action games, even back in the Classics and  they're both built under the same principle of playing repeat playthroughs for a better score. 

      And it seems like whenever Sonic leans too far into either side, the other side isn't happy; people who want Sonic to be a platformer hate it when the series focuses mainly on spectacle and set pieces (Basically, most of the 3D games :V) while when the games focus more on being a platformer, there are complaints about the game "not feeling like a Sonic game" (Pretty much why levels like Marble, Labyrinth, and Sandopolis are so heavily disliked).

       

      tl;dr: You got people who wanna platform vs. people who just wanna go fast. I suppose this is why the Boost playstyle is so divisive since it leans so heavily on one side of the spectrum to the detriment of the other. 

    3. Diogenes

      Diogenes

      Quote

      while when the games focus more on being a platformer, there are complaints about the game "not feeling like a Sonic game" (Pretty much why levels like Marble, Labyrinth, and Sandopolis are so heavily disliked).

      see though marble and labyrinth aren't bad sonic levels because of the platforming, they're bad because the platforming doesn't make use of sonic's abilities. all square edges and tight corridors and, in the latter's case, speed-sapping water. like i don't think even the most platforming-loving sonic fans are going to point to marble and labyrinth as good examples of how sonic should play.

      sandopolis is fine though, people who don't like it are just weak.

    4. Speedi

      Speedi

      I guess this is where the different interpretations come in. Because I feel like a level that makes use of Sonic's abilities well can't really be focused on platforming because it becomes too flat and restrictive. A big part of platforming is observing patterns and timing your movements carefully, which obviously doesn't mesh well with a character who lacks a set speed to his physics. Of course you can absolutely platform fast once you've mastered the level design, but the sections themselves never actually encourage(couldn't think of a better word lol) you do that most of the time. 

    5. Diogenes

      Diogenes

      why would it need to be flat and restrictive when we're talking about characters who can run up walls? sonic's not suited for every kind of platforming but the way he moves lets him do things that other platformers can't.

    6. Speedi

      Speedi

      Huh, never even thought of an idea like that. But yeah the physics can definitely offer their own unique challenges, too. 

  2. Well, I mean X is in the future of Megaman's world and Classic is in another universe. The games directly build off of Megaman's timeline with the whole reploid and maverick war whereas Classic Sonic is just kinda stuck in his own universe so there's not much room for mixing and matching characters or story elements (At least as long as Sega wants to keep that stuff tied to a specific artstyle).
  3. Seems like an unnecessary extra step, though. We already have two designs for more realistic or cartoony games, creating a fusion would probably just cause more of a dumpster fire to the people who liked those looks for him.
  4. Right, and I agree with you. It's pretty weird that Sonic's current aesthetic is something that needs to be defended in favor of being the focus to me. I've never seen this sort of thing with other fandoms, but maybe I'm just ignorant to those kinda discussions lol.
  5. Yeah, I mean what's done is done no reason to keep harping on it. Besides wasn't what brought us to this point more about whether or not classic or modern should be the focus of the series then what design works better?
  6. I don't get why you seem to be fighting this notion so hard. Whatever your preference for the designs are, at the very least it's clear that Sonic's genesis design being able to work in 3D requires tweaking no matter how subtle. Somethings just don't look good as a 1:1 translation from 2D to 3D, Pokemon dropped bobblehead models in Sun/Moon for a reason. You can argue his modern design has too much tweaking plenty but at the end of the day Sonic was never going to make to the third dimension unscathed.
  7. Are we only talking about the core genesis titles and CD when you say building on it's foundation? Because if not then I don't see how Sonic was anymore successful at sticking to what made him work if we look at all the numerous spinoffs into other genres, styles of platforming and one attempt at a full 3d game with that artstyle. I could argue Sonic was just as inconsistent after 2 as he was post Adventure 2 whether it be quality or building on what made it work.
  8. The idea of returning to your roots to understand the success of your older titles doesn't have to be as drastic as switching to an older aesthetic. Crash 4 is game with a completely different interpretation of Naughty Dog Crash's tone, universe and characters, but despite that people still praise the game a ton because it understood what made the original trilogy tick on a gameplay level. Expanding on the ND philosophy while keeping the core in tact. Now if a series that has had WAY more reinterpretations of it's aesthetic can get away with doing it AGAIN as long as the core gameplay stayed in tact I don't think Sonic needs to go back to the original artstyle either. And again, that's not to say there is no merit to the classic aesthetic being the focus for a while. As you said, the designs and world has merit and many fans do prefer it. But It just feels like such a semantics focused discussion. Like yeah, Classic can take the lead but... doesn't that kind of defeat the point of Modern Sonic? Idk man that whole concept just doesn't sit right with me.
  9. I mean you're not wrong but... is that really a conversation worth having? Adventure was an evolution of what Sonic had been up until that point, that's why the overhaul to the artstyle exists. Going back to the classic aesthetic just because you CAN seems really pointless with that knowledge in mind imo. I'm not saying Sonic couldn't have evolved with a less drastic overhaul to the world and characters, but at this point we can't go back and time to make that happen so I just don't get the value of a discussion like that.
  10. Couldn't it also be argued that classic sonic has had just as much experimentation as modern sonic did while he was still a focus? I don't really think it's fair to say that Modern has experimented too much when the Sonic has ALWAYS been getting shoved into racing games. pinball games, educational games and hell even a couple attempts at "3D" games since wayyy before Adventure was a concept. And for myself at least. When I say Classic Sonic is running low on potential I'm talking about from the perspective that Sega themselves seem adamant to keep him stuck to the momentum based 2D gameplay in every game he's appeared in since generations. I'm not going to blame people for thinking classic's hit the ceiling when Sega refuse to let him evolve past his genesis gameplay anymore.
  11. Having a preference is fine, but I don't think the series NEEDS to dedicate an entire section of the franchise to classic iconography. Mario doesn't do it, and the people who prefer the pre-Mario 64 aesthetic still buy and play his games. New artstyles are just a natural part of evolution, it feels like the people who complained about the lack of classic don't want to understand that and shouldn't be catered to imo.
  12. I think Classic was already screwed as soon as Generations introduced the idea that the aesthetic was tied down solely to 2d gameplay. Because now, in Sega's eyes the pre-dreamcast era represents a specific kind of Sonic game despite that fact that Classic had just as much gameplay variety as Mario back in the day (I mean, just look at the piles of spinoffs he got for examples of that). There's not a whole lot you can do to evolve Classic Sonic when you're stuck in one dimension and have to adhere to the genesis trilogy's design philosophy and limited cast. It'd be better to just focus on making 2d and 3d modern games so that the devs can have more creative freedom. Plus with the ungodly amount of fangames for Classic Sonic to experience, I personally have had more then enough of my fill with that style for the rest of my life lol. Edit: That said, a Sonic The Hedgehog level maker would be a pretty cool sendoff.
  13. I would say to just believe what you want and remember to respect other perspectives on media. Really the whole "this popular media is terrible or amazing" topic annoys me from both sides. I absolutely can't stand when people talk about stuff like this in such unnecessary extremes, the whole notion just feels so combative. But I guess people can't help but want their opinions to have an impact even if it does nothing but start fights most of the time.
  14. The thing is that who Maria is doesn't really matter because Shadow's story is about what she meant to him personally and not who she is. His one bright spot in a life where he spent most of his time questioning his own existence wandering the ark without a purpose. Shadow's game only proved to me that Maria on her own is not an interesting character but her effect on other characters is makes her work.
  15. Multiverse, eh? Well, I guess the 30th anniversary is as good a time as any to make a story around the various interpretations this series has gotten over the years. I'm just glad we finally got something to look forward to even if it's not coming until next year.
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