knuckles20 reacted to Scritch the Cat in Has "Solo Sonic" been detrimental to the series?
Abso-fucking-lutely. This bullshit was already causing problems with the ridiculous direction they took with Sonic The Hedgehog 4, claiming they were improving and going back to their roots by boasting about how they were getting rid of everyone but Sonic, and the game ended up being crap due to unfinished physics. The awful thing is that even when they added Tails back into the second episode and fixed the physics, the damage was already done and we never got a third episode (not counting Metal). It's only come to look more and more pathetic as Sonic Team floundered to fill in the gaps they vacated with a bunch of other stuff, like Werehog, the Wisps, Classic Sonic (though I like him), and finally the OC. It's absolutely disgraceful they put the OC in before re-adding Tails and Knuckles.
knuckles20 reacted to PublicEnemy1 in IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog
Okay, time for some Bumblekast news! I'll name some important bits for IDW:
1. Ian's actually been getting along with SEGA quite well, and they have actually been very receptive to ideas. Including things coming up that he was surprised that SEGA actually gave the okay for that would've NEVER happened in the previous book. The main thing that changed is that Ian isn't as hand-on as he used to be.
2. Ian confirmed the fate of Cream the Rabbit: she is NOT back to being mandated as some people might think. In fact, she (as well as other characters) is actually coming back in Season 2. They were originally supposed to show up in Season 1, but that never came into fruition. So hey, some positive news for once.
knuckles20 reacted to Celestia in IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog
Are you suggesting segregating the characters entirely to a side book? Because that would have been disastrous circa Archie (and is still kind of a bad idea for the current comics, fortunately I doubt that's what they're doing). Long-time fans were the main ones buying the book still and that would have alienated them a lot, especially when the reboot and everything that came with it--even if it stuff that wasn't at all the fault of the book's actual creative team--already alienated some people.
Now you could say that more or less removing the "non-game characters" would attract more readers who weren't a fan of them. Except there's no guarantee of that, especially with a comic that was 200 issues in and not hiding that fact. Even when the comic was sincerely improving as Ian's era continued, I don't remember seeing many people who had hated the book willing to give it another chance.
knuckles20 reacted to Kuzu the Boloedge in How would you fix Sonic's lore, gameplay, narrative, and characters?
Someone on another forum brought up how Cream could be fleshed out as having some bit of curiosity about the world since she's lived a relatively sheltered lifestyle and wants to have adventures of her own with Sonic and co.
knuckles20 reacted to Scritch the Cat in Has the "Sonic's sh*tty friends" mentality been a detriment to this series?
No, that meme exists because its creator was a fucking moron who proposed that one could extrapolate a cycle on the basis of one game and that most of the fanbase still consisted of Genesis purists; a big fallacy when Sonic Adventure 2 was the best-selling non-Nintendo game on Gamecube and a lot of people still love its characters. Posting it is banned here for good reason.
The ire about side characters was originally directed at very niche cases like Big the Cat; almost never at Tails and Knuckles, and while Sonic Heroes probably exacerbated the backlash against extra characters due to them being used to pad the game out, there was never a sense that putting in unnecessary characters led to a glitchy game. And it didn't with Sonic 2006, either; that game is a broken mess because they didn't finish it. Had they done so, it would probably have been well-received, but some fuckwad suits at Sega made Sonic Team rush it out for Christmas and Sonic's fifteenth anniversary, and Sega deciding to start sucking off the "shitty friends" crowd was a convenient way to downplay that their execution was what stank, not the concept itself. If you need any greater proof, just look at the Game Boy Advance port they made of the first Sonic game on Genesis; only Sonic playable, a very short game whose levels were already designed, and its execution was still fucked up. Same with Sonic 4: Episode 1. The problem isn't other characters. The problem isn't even other playstyles. The problem is that Sega is willing to release unfinished shit and charge full price for it, and needs to be brought to terms with that fact by the whole fanbase. How to do that? With those fangamers you wrongfully disparage.
Remember that awful GBA port I mentioned above? Fans did it correctly the VERY NEXT YEAR! The same group went on to make the mobile ports of several Classic Sonic games, and then Sonic Mania. Sega itself has given lie to your notion that they're more dependable than fans when it comes to getting Sonic right, given that they hired those people and still aren't as good at replicating Sonic's old engine when they try. Most of the times, in their 3D games, they don't try. Fanmade 3D games have actually gotten the physics pretty close to the ones in Genesis games; boost Sonic can pussyfoot out of that responsibility. They even showed it's possible to make Sonic 06 not suck. As to characters, 3D fangames haven't implemented them well-enough for my tastes, yet...but they're trying, which is far more than I can say for Sonic Team. Not getting it right yet isn't a valid criticism because almost no developers get it right initially; almost every computer program goes through a lot of crap mid-development; people test them, find bugs, report bugs, programmers fix bugs.
Sega could make more ambitious Sonic games with more characters if they were willing to do more of that and not charge money until they've got it finished, and a big way to avoid a backlash would be to allow fans to come test early builds of games. Thus, no ex-post facto blaming it on ambitious ideas. Or if they have to blame it on ambitious ideas and scale back on them, they can at least save face by not releasing the game for money with those problematic bits still in.
As to the excuse about needing to get Sonic's own gameplay right before adding other characters back in, look; even if that had been valid at the time Sega started saying it after 2006's wipeout--and I'd argue that it wasn't too valid, since Sonic played pretty great in Sonic Adventure 2--if they're still saying that over a decade later when they still haven't added those other characters back in, it's probably safe to assume Sega will never get Sonic's own gameplay right. The sad reality is that while now it is pretty obvious how to get Classic Sonic's gameplay right (though maybe still not obvious to Sonic Team), Modern Sonic's identity crisis is such that what "right" is for that is subjective. Boost is probably a bigger base-breaker than other characters ever were, and if it's not, it should be, since it's a fundamental change to how Sonic himself plays, and if successful, will necessitate a wholesale departure from Genesis-style Sonic gameplay. There are also entirely too many times when, as Roger Van Der Weide puts it, Sonic Team would rather burn down what isn't working than fix it. Having recently replayed both Sonic Adventure and Sonic Colors, a good example of this is camera. Granting that they never quite got camera controls working, completely removing controls and instead using automated camera angles that are often either too close or too far to interpret things easily was not an improvement. Moving along to Roger's other points, though, if Sonic Team defines "getting Sonic's own gameplay right" as making the game more straightforward, then I absolutely will not invite them to get it right before they add Tails and Knuckles back in, because that sort of design reduces the utility of such characters. Getting Sonic's gameplay right should mean his gameplay should utilize more exploration, too; except his specialty would still be speeding forward while Tails and Knuckles would be better for exploration.
However, whether they're actually done, in their or other people's opinions, if Sonic Team thinks they're ready to make games with Classic Sonic and a character who uses grappling hooks in them, then they have at least some places that Tails and Knuckles can fit in, too. If not in their 3D segments, then at least in their 2D ones, of which for better or worse, there are still plenty. It's a start. It's not a finish, but it would be better than they've done in a main game for over a decade.
knuckles20 got a reaction from Lord-Dreamerz in Has the "Sonic's sh*tty friends" mentality been a detriment to this series?
We’ve discussed this many times with each other but it’s been over a decade since anyone but Sonic been playable in a 3D game, the games have become stale since Colors for me. I’ve been asking for for actual characters to be playable in the 3D games since being disappointed with Generation and I’m gonna keep asking for them because there’s nothing you or anyone else can say that’ll dissuade me.
knuckles20 reacted to Wraith in Has the "Sonic's sh*tty friends" mentality been a detriment to this series?
Sega/ST has proven that they're likely to release a mediocre product given all the breaks in the world. I hate that that dictates things because it's an excuse to shut down most avenues of discussion. Sonic Unleashed released in 2008. They're not interested in getting the base right no matter what the circumstances are. They have made all the changes that people were sure would suddenly solve everything and nothing has changed because those characters weren't ever actually the problem. The story being an unfocused mess isn't actually down to the number of characters and that holds true to the gameplay as well.
Platforming franchises have been able to hit the ground running with more than 2 characters in story roles and plenty of them in gameplay roles. There have been plenty of games from the playstation 2 era onward that balance gameplay and story. It's not a question of whether it can be done. We know it can. Sonic Team can't do it, but what can they do exactly? They pioneered the physics on classic sonic and they cannot reproduce them. They can't even make Generations again without making it worse. Who cares what they can do? Nothing gets done over there with SEGA's godawful management breathing down their neck. No point in going by their parameters.
So, no, I don't think this mindset really did help anything at the end of the day. The games's focus stayed split mechanically and the writing didn't get any better, so what was actually solved by taking them out? SEGA just used it as a cheap marketing gimmick to sell Sonic 4. Anyone who liked those characters got screwed and anyone who wanted them gone got duped essentially.
knuckles20 got a reaction from Lord-Dreamerz in Has the "Sonic's sh*tty friends" mentality been a detriment to this series?
I don’t know which is more insulting. That countdown or having Classic Sonic show up right after the line “But even heroes need help” in the initial Forces trailer.
knuckles20 reacted to Zaysho in Has the "Sonic's sh*tty friends" mentality been a detriment to this series?
This argument's been thrown around for as long as I've been active on this forum. Sonic Team is incompetent, we know. Even I brought it up as a reason I'm pessimistic about the prospect of a Sonic Adventure remake a couple weeks ago, but this just starts to sound like more and more of an excuse. "It's not your turn yet, they need to get x right." People have been waiting for that for ten years or more, man. There's never going to be a right time at this rate, and something like Mania is not going to light a fire under Sonic Team's asses to get there any sooner. If Sonic Team is going to flounder around trying to get the series "right" anyway, you might as well throw those people a bone in the process besides talking heads on a radio. Not like the current method is gaining them any ground.
knuckles20 reacted to Kuzu the Boloedge in Has the "Sonic's sh*tty friends" mentality been a detriment to this series?
Yea, but like...one isn't related to other? There's literally no reason that if the stars aligned and they got things right that they could not do both gameplay and characters. Because, as I said before, other game developers can do this just fine. I get it's your opinion, but it's kind of rooted in a fallacy that "Without X they can focus on Y", as if they are mutually exclusive. They're not, they're not mutually exclusive.
Yes Dio, we CAN have both good gameplay AND add put some focus on the extended cast. It is possible, one does not need to be sacrificed for the other regardless of what history has told you. The fact that it has been that way in the past reflects more on Sega's mismanagement and not on those elements merely existing beside each other because once again, other platforming franchises do this just fine. There is nothing inherent about this series that prevents that beyond the people who are handling him.
Now if you don't give a shit about the extended cast and care more about gameplay than anything else, then just say that. That's a much more understandable opinion than trying to convince people that the other characters just shouldn't be around at all until they "get things right".
knuckles20 reacted to Scritch the Cat in Has the "Sonic's sh*tty friends" mentality been a detriment to this series?
Fuck yeah; it's a detriment, but I think the OP is wrong about one thing.
Based on every Sonic game I've ever played, alternate playstyles are necessary. Or if they aren't, at least Sega thought so, because this didn't actually start with Big the Cat; that's just the point when it got so alien to the core Sonic experience that it was the most noticeable example of forcing in an alternate, slower playstyle--it helps that it's a whole, separate story, which inherently fuels arguments that the game can be improved just by taking that out. However, from the very first game, they made excuses to slow the experience down, whatwith Marble Zone and the Special Stages being a totally different type of gameplay than the signature Sonic speed. They added to the slowdown in subsequent games by making you explore and play methodically to get the Chaos Emeralds/Time Zones/Good Future. Also these games were packed with "no going back" mechanics meaning that if you didn't get something write the first time, you'd have to replay a bunch of stuff to get another chance. I hated that part of Classic Sonic and hated seeing it return in Sonic Colors--especially since that game is full of invisible walls, speed pads and forced dimension shifts, putting me further at the mercy of the developers' insistence that I do things their way or not at all.
The bottom line is that no mainstream Sonic game I have ever played is totally content to let you speed through everything to complete it fully. All of them demand some form of slowing down at points in order to complete 100%, and I think the reason for this is that being all speed would make the games too short; that or make them take an absurd amount of time to develop. Also, while some people say they'd love to see a Sonic game that was all-speed, all the time, unless Sega somehow discovers a way to give Sonic the same level of control while at full speed that normal characters have when going slower, it seems there's a very limited amount of things Sonic can actually do when going fast, which would lead to a very repetitive game. My take on the base concept of Sonic going fast is that its novelty wears thin if it's not well-rationed. You need some other sort of gameplay to break it up, but Sonic himself isn't as well built for platforming, combat, etc, so it makes sense to bring in some other characters who are better at it.
The key for me is this: Other gameplay styles don't have to be as fast Sonic's ideal established in Green Hill Zone, but they have to be fun and the characters have to have some really impressive abilities to justify their existence The problem with Big the Cat is that his gameplay isn't what many gamers consider fun, and his athletic skills (at least originally) start and end at being able to lift heavy things, which is only used a very little bit in the game. Yet none of the ire aroused by Big the Cat, even when directed at other post-Genesis characters, ever hit Tails and Knuckles until maybe 2006 botched them, but it botched Sonic, too.
knuckles20 reacted to Dr. Detective Mike in Has the "Sonic's sh*tty friends" mentality been a detriment to this series?
I guess people just really miss the other characters nowadays. I could have used a couple more of you guys on my side back when everyone was hating them. It must have either been a vocal minority situation that was so loud that it shaped the way the games were for the next decade and a half (and still ongoing) or everyone just changed their minds. I doubt it's the latter but it could be.
Anyway, to answer the question, it's a detriment if the other characters were a big part of why you loved the series. They are for me, so most definitely it is. A huge one in fact. It might not matter at all to someone else though.
Funny thing about that phrase is that back then they technically weren't all his friends. Some were rivals and a few more were just acquaintances. That would always nag at the back of my skull even though it literally didn't matter. IGN didn't care either. They still found ways to blame shit they didn't like about Generations on them even though they didn't do anything.
"Most of these bad missions star Sonic's shitty friends" is a thing that was written and said by an actual reviewer. He just really wanted to let you know that these bad missions starred Sonic's shitty friends guys. He wasn't trying to subtly hint that the reason they sucked was because of their presence and not because the missions themselves were designed badly. No, no. That'd be totally passive aggressive and logically unsound. That's just not the IGN way.
God, you know, I haven't talked or cared about IGN in years. That shitty review is the last memory I have of them honestly.
knuckles20 got a reaction from Miragnarok in Which character is the most unnecessary?
Why not? Colors and Generations exist, and those games show the issue I have with the current games. Anyone else involed has regressed from capable individuals who can take care of themselves into helpless civilians planted to stroke Sonic’s ego because god forbid fans care about anyone else but the blue hedgehog.
Going back to why I think Classic Sonic as a character unnecessary, it fueled the aminosity between the Classic and Modern fandoms. As if we weren’t divided enough. That doesn’t mean I want CS to go away. I’m fine with the two co-existing as long as MS gets his own identity that isn’t bogged down by going back to his roots all the time and he stands on his own without interference from his retro counterpart.
knuckles20 reacted to TideKai in Which character is the most unnecessary?
So, I try to stay out of character discussions since my opinions on a lot of the characters are almost purely subjective, and I feel that I wouldn't be able to really contribute anything substantial to the conversation. I do want to kind of chime in here and put in my two cents.
I don't really want anyone to get "axed", just sort of written better. I know this is a really cop-out answer, I just don't know how to describe it. Most of the characters have an aspect I like and I'd rather they improve and feel more substantial as a character and to the narrative instead of getting rid of them completely. Even the characters that I don't like, I can see them being rewritten or retooled so that they are more appealing (maybe not necessarily to me but to others). I don't know...maybe someone else knows what I'm trying to say and can say it better than me? I'm awful at picking the right words to describe what I'm feeling.
But my opinions on which characters I like and which I don't are kind of all over the place so maybe I shouldn't say anything, haha.
knuckles20 reacted to Lord-Dreamerz in Spinoffs for other characters?
As I always tell everybody when this kinda subject comes up... I WANT a Blaze spinoff game series with her as the ONLY main character with Sonic NOWHERE around to steal the spotlight. She has a whole dimension to herself which basically begs for more exploration on it's ideas. I feel I would probably want a original side cast to be developed when it comes to other characters Blaze interacts with, and nobody from the main Sonic dimension... (especially not Silver.) ...I wouldn't be against a entirely new main villain to be created for her to deal with on her world... However I am more fond of the idea of Captain Whisker being evolved and developed into a main serious villain and all that without Dr.Eggman's involvement... The idea that Robotnik abandoned Captain Whisker and his crew forgetting all about them where they are left behind on Blaze's world to become their own villain gang is a very interesting idea to me. Far as I am aware we have never actually seen Blaze's kingdom/family/underlings on her world... with her as a princess that seems like a important thing we should know more about and it opens itself up to some really decent ideas.
As for a loose gameplay idea? Maybe something little like Sonic Unleashed HD and Super Mario Odyssey.... My slightly more detailed thoughts is for it to be a high speed action based RPG with lots of exploration, mysteries to discover and many interesting characters she can talk with, including fun side missions/minigames. Lots of outfits you can dress Blaze up in... Perhaps even go as far to make the game a small scale open world game along with the other stuff I listed.
knuckles20 reacted to Shadowlax in Should Sonic take a break?
You know what, i'm done. @UpCDownCLeftCRightC
Think whatever you want. I tried to use logic to appeal to you, and i feel like you are either trying to solve a non problem with identity or what I think you are actually trying to do is be disingenuous about what you want, which is classic sonic all the time. Whichever one it is, I don't got time for it. Peace
knuckles20 reacted to Kuzu the Boloedge in Edgy Sonic games were better?
Oh boy, it's this discussion again, the one that comes up, every time narrative is talked about in this series. Oh JOY!!! As you can probably tell, I've grown so very tired of this topic, if only because I always see the same responses from the same types of people and nobody ever agrees on anything. But I'm not here to bore you with my cynicism. So you want my take?
"Light", "Dark", and "edgy" have become some of the biggest buzzwords I've seen in this series; people use them all of the time when describing things, but I will bet money nobody actually understands them beyond just seeing them as common words used to describe this series. "Sonic games should be "Edgy: and cool" "Sonic should be lighthearted and fun" All of that is meaningless.
You wanna know the real reason this series struggles with it's tone and narrative? Because Sega are fickle as shit, and they change the story at the drop of a hat depending on where public opinion is at in that time period. But you wanna know the difference between then and now? Sega actually gave a shit back then, as misguided as they were. They were trying their damnest to keep Sonic relevant in the public eye and made numerous changes to the series in order to accomplish that. Were some of those changes dumb and ultimately made things worse? Absolutely, but the main thing is that they were trying. They WANTED you to care.
But Sega sucks, so obviously those attempts were doomed because they don't know how to make a functional video game. Which led to Colors, the game that stripped everything down to the bare essentials to be a competent video game. No friends, Sonic Only, Final Destination. And we loved it, everyone loved it. "A Sonic game that doesn't suck" we all thought, so naturally every game afterward would follow the same format of "No Friends, Sonic only, Final destination" because that's what we wanted right? And Sega always gives the fans what they want.
But then one day we kind of realized "Man, these games are boring" because Sega doesn't try anymore with this series. They know Sonic will sell on his name alone at this point, so there's reason for them to put in any effort anymore. Even when they did, they cared more about "pleasing people" than just actually making sure their games were functional. This is why the writing has become so bad, its not because of some evil boogyman like Pontac or Graff, they're just there to collect a pay check. Its not because the writers suck. It's because Sega likely mandate these games to be "pleasing" than competent.
That's the real reason we're where we are now; it's not because the series got "too dark" or "too light", it's because it's creators care less about making an engaging and cohesive narrative and more about making sure everyone likes their games. above anything else. Quantity over Quality basically. Forces was "dark and edgy" and it was the same boring stuff we've been getting for about 10 years now. Even if I felt like Sega was trying with that game, I still don't think it would have been good, because Sega's focus isn't on making the games competent, it's just making them "pleasing to everyone".
So yea, the root issue here is just the absolute mishandling of the series. Doesn't matter if we get another Sonic Adventure, doesn't matter if we got another Sonic Colors, because as long as Sega prioritize pleasing all audiences instead of making sure their games are functionally sound and entertaining, we're just gonna get more of the same at the end of the day.
knuckles20 reacted to dbzfan7 in Edgy Sonic games were better?
I always find the Sonic should be lollipops and rainbows argument silly because cartoon. Look no further than Disney. Look at their animated kids movies. LOOK AT THEM!!! Those are children's movies and they still can tackle these "edgier" subject matters. Besides that's not even the problem. It's telling a good story. I don't think anyone will cry over the tone of a Sonic game if it at least tells a good meaningful story. As long as actual thought and care is put into it, then it can work. The big problem is they literally can't tell a good tale to save their life. They suck at either end so people basically have to choose if ya want toddler tales or edgie hedgies.
knuckles20 reacted to Strickerx5 in Edgy Sonic games were better?
Eh, 36 seconds in and I'm already hit with a red flag. ST has seen... substantial staff changes; in the last decade alone even. Sure a few staff and even a few key ones have stuck around but other than that... the ST we have now is completely different from what we had even as late as Gens. They are a literal revolving door nowadays for the industry.
A few other factual errors aside... they were kind of all over the place with their points in this video. Though, I do fully agree that I'd like to see a return to the 2000s styled narratives rather than what we've been getting recently. As to the reason why the 2000s games are more of a highlight for me in this area rather than the more recent ones, imo, seems to be due to ambition rather than tone.
Honestly, this isn't a question of a "dark" or "light" plot. It's more of wanting them to actually give me something to care about. Whether it's coming from the doom of some monster threatening to destroy the planet or a simple trip to the grocery, you have to have a narrative that makes someone care about the circumstances. The 2000s games mostly succeed in this because there was a clear drive to tell those stories. The production values were there and things rarely felt gimped due to lack of trying. None of this stand in a box and talk crap that these current games love to fall back on. It's only really a coincidence the 2000s games were more dark in tone for the most part.
Tone rarely matters. The actual narrative, how the characters are portrayed, written, and animated do. The 2000s games simply put more effort into all of that (and a number of other aspects). A number of those games offered a full package. Simply can't say that any Sonic game after 2009 has done that for me. In that sense, I do wish that era of the series would return.
From the very beginning, this series built itself on being more than your average platformer. I absolutely can't stand how things have been going in the opposite direction for the last decade.
knuckles20 reacted to Dr. Detective Mike in Edgy Sonic games were better?
Like most seem to be saying here, I don't really give much of a shit about "light" and "dark". The best stories, at least to me, work when they take you through a range of emotion. Sadness is more effective when you're aware of what the good and happy times were. The funny, comedic moments work better when you're aware of what it felt like seeing characters suffer through drama. Any continuing conversation that says we should choose between the two as far as Sonic is concerned is one I'm going to immediately have less respect for. I'm not saying leaning towards one side over the other can't work. A pure comedy is fine. Maybe a pure serious story could also be fine.
It just depends on how well it's written. We don't have anyone over there who either cares enough or knows enough about how to write for this series to make the tone a non-issue. Which it really is, ultimately.
You know, for example, Sonic characters with guns isn't a problem. Tails, Eggman, and Omega use projectile weapons all the time but the manner in which the concept is utilized is why something like Shadow the Hedgehog looks so ridiculous. You know. When you imagine Eggman using a gun you don't imagine him whipping out an AK-47 and mowing people down with it... though that does sound pretty cool.
knuckles20 reacted to Celestia in IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog
I'm actually really curious about the Rouge story. It'd be kinda nice to see her on her own in something for the first time since, uh, *thinks about the entire franchise*...her earlier appearances in Archie?
(Shadow and/or Omega might still appear of course but I feel like they'd be mentioned if they were going to be featured heavily.)