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Sonic Fan J

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Sonic Fan J last won the day on May 27

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    Sonic and anime. Going to attempt to get into the IDW comics.
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  1. I stepped out of this conversation a while ago because I felt that my bias was hindering any form of reasonable discussion, but this number kind of bothers me. If you recall, a few pages back I specifically mention the numbers of 100 million total downloads and 14 million daily players involving Sonic Dash. Now, as someone who does not play, or even downloaded Sonic Dash I can use myself to say that the number of Sonic fans are larger than the 100 million listed by some degree. To be more realistic though, let's go with 14 million fans as a rough number. If we take your 0.1% number than the general audience equals 14 billion people, which is double of the Earth's population. That's a pretty bold claim even as an exaggeration. I get what you're trying to say though, which is just like BOOM! the movie is not being aimed at the established fanbase. The problem is though, as you say, gamers and video games (despite being as large of a business as Hollywood) are part of a niche. Sonic fans are an even smaller part of this niche and Sonic himself no longer has his global recognition from the '90s. To make matters worse, outside of Sonic's fanbase he is barely above an inside joke and only his iconic status from the '90's has kept him around at all. So that brings us to the question then of who is your target audience for a PG-13 rated Sonic movie. Well, the only game in the franchise with a comparable rating was Shadow and you know how well that was received. BOOM! was aimed at a new audience and we see how that's doing as well. So how about the age range of 13 year olds and their parents who will be taking them to see this movie. Well, their parents will be old enough to remember who Sonic was in the late nineties and early 2000s, and the kids themselves are at the age that 06 would have been their first new game, or Unleashed and the story book games with Colors being a likely choice as well. then you have the state of the games and comics today with almost no humans or realism present which will create a brand disconnect with the movie and the main form of the brand making it difficult to sell games from the existing catalog which SEGA is always glad to re-release. Of course since this movie isn't aimed at existing fans who is it trying to get with a PG-13 rated anthropomorphic animal movie? Are they honestly thinking they can take the GotG crowd with Tom the cop in rural no man's land? I just don't see it. I just can't see the general audience being interested in a PG-13 anthropomorphic animal series. And considering this is the age of the internet you can't tell me that anyone who looks up Sonic after the marketing begins won't see this the very first image on Google image search (went there since regular search gave me the drive thru). That alone is a problem since any further refining searches brings this up in the first images and on the Google sidebar. Then you're also going to have some parents who will do further research to see if this a movie to bring their kids and there is no way that type of research won't reveal the uglier parts of the fanbase in even the tiniest of examples and that could kill the movie alone right there. So, I have to ask; what exactly is Paramount banking on here. You don't want the existing fans but it is totally impossible to separate a near three decade old franchise from its history and fans, and anyone who even attempts to look up the movie when it starts being marketed will be exposed to that in some capacity. Even the marketing itself is going to have to say based on the hit game and comic series by SEGA which will itself generate curiosity which leads to parts of the general audience doing their own research. That research will in turn be shared on social media and that will give birth to countless comparisons and questions about what is going on. I know i'm biased against the movie, but even then I can't see how this movie is a good idea in any capacity except maybe brand exposure. The problem I see there though is that this is not necessarily good exposure, and despite the old Hollywood slogan of bad publicity is still publicity I just see this endeavor hurting the brand more than anything. Sorry for my pessimism, I just can't see this movie as turning out good for Paramount or SEGA.
  2. Sonic Fan J

    Bashed By Some, Praised By You

    This is such a tricky question. There are so many games and so many reasons. Truthfully I guess I do enjoy '06 and Sonic R as probably my top that are known for being bashed. With '06 the story for some reason just really sits well with me no matter how ridiculous it is and I always find myself enjoying it when I play or look back on it. As for Sonic R, that game is just simple fun with no real rhyme or reason that I just simply enjoy for it being Sonic and racing in Sonic style levels. Yeah, nothing really deep, but sometimes it's the simple things that make life better. With all of these overly complex games these days that feel like I spend as much time grinding in menus as I do exploring the world and experiencing the story it's nice to be able to fall back onto simpler times when you can just turn off your brain and soak up those feelings that fulfill you on an emotional level no matter how illogical.
  3. Kind of randomly bouncing around and found this

    Watching this and seeing how expressive Amy's quills were just reminded me again of one of the reason's I prefer her classic design to her modern one.

    1. Strong Guy

      Strong Guy

      I mean, even if she still looked like that sonic team wouldn't make her expressive. As even Sonic himself is no longer expressive at all. He doesn't even have an idle animation in forces.

    2. Sonic Fan J

      Sonic Fan J

      Too true. I can't help but wonder why though. Sure I've heard the excuse of model rigging and memory, but even AM2 made super expressive models in Fighters back in the earliest days of polygonal works.

    3. Strong Guy

      Strong Guy

      Fighters is the most charming and expressive game in the series. They're never gonna even come close to that level of character ever again.

      They have animal characters that would be super easy to give personality and charm to by moving their quills, ears, giving a subtle tail wag or something, but they don't because sonic team.

    4. Sonic Fan J

      Sonic Fan J

      It does seem like Sonic team is wont to squander what they have. Such a shame.

  4. Sonic Fan J

    Sonic Adventure 2D: could it work?

    I personally think 2D games rich in story are very possible. There have been 2D RPG's, the Klonoa and Megaman series have played around with it in there own ways, and as Sonic's 2D gameplay is typically praised with Rush Adventure already pretty much being a blue print to build on I don't see why not.
  5. Sonic Fan J

    Should Sonic Be Given The Ability To Swim?

    I actually like @The Deleter's idea. It could also work in a way of exploiting Sonic's momentum from diving in and out of water. Say there is a path under a ledge that is to high for Sonic to jump to but is inaccessible from above. If Sonic jumps into the water from high enough up to get deep enough for a strong rebound back out of the water he could reach the path that way. Conversely the player could hold jump while underwater to force Sonic down and then release to launch back out of the water. It would still allow for mostly normal play underwater but the added element of springing back to the surface would be a different challenge that would play on building momentum in a very different way that would really make the player actively choose if they want to interact with water instead of just trying to actively avoid it.
  6. I could see Orbot and Cubot as a pair in their own vehicle rounding out Eggman's team with Metal Sonic. Conversely, I could also see Metal Sonic being grouped with Blaze and Silver as easily marketable "Leftovers" DLC of what is otherwise the main Sonic cast.
  7. One of the most interesting things about a franchise as old and inconsistent as Sonic is that it results in people having some widely differing opinions about it and its components. For this thread though we'll be focusing on the title character himself and how we perceive him as a character. Over the years I've personally seen quite a number of takes on Sonic and the variety is fairly astounding. From a Bugs Bunny-esque character to a serious steadfast champion of justice to a total jerk who is only a hero because he beats the villain to laid back comedian who doesn't really care about anything to a cliche shonen hero who's all about friendship and living life the right way. That run on sentence only covers a handful of the different interpretations of Sonic I've seen over the years but it still paints an interesting picture of how versatile a character is. In my case though, I've been with the franchise since the beginning and my perception of the character is not as fluid as he himself seems to be. As a result certain interpretations bother me as they fundamentally clash with my perception, but that could in itself just be because of how skewed I see things anyway. An extrovert. This is a common descriptor I see for Sonic which is not surprising. He's sarcastic, snarky, impertinent, cheeky, joking, righteous, caring, adventurous, and a bit of an adrenaline junkie. Yet despite all of that I personally see Sonic as an introvert who isn't actually all that good with people. He may share his philosophies and help those in need, unable to stand the sight of seeing people crying and hurt, or suffering injustice, but once he's done his thing he's gone like the wind, only keeping in touch with those who can keep up with him. Most of his time is spent alone in the wilds doing what he loves best; running. He explores, seeks out new places to challenge himself, and rarely is seen just chilling and interacting with people. Yuji Naka once said that Sonic is shy when asked about whether or not he actually likes Amy and pretty much no one believed him. But I did and still do. In a way Sonic reminds me of the most feared bully at my grade school. He was a short kid who would mess you up if you so much as looked at him wrong and even kids twice to three times his size were terrified of him. I on the other hand was amazed. He may have been short and a bully but he was fast. He was so fast that when my grade school still had PE and we would run three laps around the schoolyard he would run five in the same time it took the rest of us to do those three and so one day I built up the courage to talk to him and he actually opened up to me. He was actually a scared little kid who became the monster he was to protect himself from his own height deficiency. He kept his distance from people to protect himself and them in a way from the bullying that would naturally follow his short stature and he wouldn't let me become his friend out of those same fears and to maintain his image. It was kind of a sad story but to this day still reminds me of Sonic in a way. Sure Sonic is righteous, cheeky, and snarky, but you only see that when he is around others. When he's by himself he's typically shown as silent and just taking in the world around him and marveling at it. This contrast could be argued as it just shows how is in those two different circumstances, but I see someone who is talking a lot and putting on airs and an attitude because he's not comfortable. Just look what he went through with Tails and Knuckles before the first time you ever see him give them a high five or a fist bump. Heck, at the end of Sonic Adventure after he saved the bailed without telling anyone. Sure he was chasing after Eggman but he chose solitude after having the eyes of all of Station Square on him. Then there is also his interactions with Amy. She's a friend of his no doubt, but she is so extroverted and expressive he's always uncomfortable around her unless she calms down and gives him some space. She overwhelms him and is too much for him most times resulting in him bailing or pushing her away. And while Sonic is shown to get along with most people he meets, he's usually only shown interacting with people he's helping or has helped. Once he's done he's on his way again and enjoying his solitude and running. Heck, he never even demonstrates taking the initiative himself to check in on those he's helped despite how caring of an individual he is. This to me shows a discomfort around people that is typical of an introvert. Putting on airs and an attitude in addition to actively not seeking out interaction in general is not the only place Sonic paints himself an introvert to me however. There is also the way that he interacts with others when he does. First and foremost he never talks about himself. He never opens the door for others to learn about himself, instead putting on airs or sharing a philosophy that makes them think about things other them him. He removes himself from any situation despite being cocky and a showboat. He creates this distance even with his closest friends that goes completely unnoticed and then bails in the interim. Yet despite this peculiar contrast he has been shown to care when no one is otherwise looking. In Unleashed he is shown to be generally hurt when Amy doesn't recognize him, but can't call out to her. When faced with the harm that his werehog transformation causes he typically avoids interaction with Amy and it's her who forces herself back onto him. Despite the fact that he lets her though if not for Tails, Chip, and Pickle, Amy would have never learned what was going on or why. Sonic just simply doesn't talk about himself and his problems. He keeps to himself and typically distances himself from those around him At the end of the day this is just my perception though and there are plenty of examples that could be used to counter it. Regardless of those arguments though it's as a globetrotting introvert with a love of adventure and need to challenge himself that I perceive Sonic as and am most attached to. What about everyone else though? Who sees him as a superhero that lives to stop Eggman? Who sees him as a jerk with a heart of gold? Who sees him in an even stranger light than I do? Please use this thread to talk about how you perceive Sonic and let's all explore our individual perceptions of him together.
  8. Need a good Sonic topic right now but can't think of one to sink my teeth into.

    I'm being too much of a stick in the mud for the movie thread.

    TSR hasn't really grabbed me yet.

    My one Amy thread just seems to make people angry.


    Maybe I should start a thread to see how differently everyone perceives Sonic....

  9. Emotions are such a weird thing. Yesterday was an alright day where nothing really bad happened, yet I still woke up feeling bitter, pessimistic, and cynical.

    Why do this to me my brain?

    1. Failinhearts


      Remember, I'm always here for you.

      Sorry you're feeling this way.

    2. Sonic Fan J

      Sonic Fan J

      Hey thanks. Nothing wrong I can think of though. Just my emotional state upon getting up today. Just more of a storm cloud than silver lining state of mind today.

    3. Failinhearts


      Happens to the best of us, bud.

      Hope that cloud washes away soon.

    4. Sonic Fan J

      Sonic Fan J

      Hope so. I just need to find a really good Sonic conversation and that should do it. I seem to be being a bit of a stick in the mud of late though so finding one may be trickier than it should be right now.

    5. Failinhearts


      Well, remember, I'm free to talk about anything if you need me.

    6. Sonic Fan J

      Sonic Fan J

      Appreciate it. Thinking of starting a thread here soon though just to shuffle up my thoughts and see what turns out.

    7. Failinhearts


      Whatever you think works, bud!

    8. Kiah


      Unfortunately the change of emotions can inexplicably change at the hat. It’s very frustrating when you go from feeling fine to suddenly feeling terrible and I’m sorry you’re going through that. 

      In situations like these it’s best to keep yourself occupied and even talk to someone. Regarding the former if you can’t think of a thread to initiate you could always revive an old one that interests you. And as for the latter like Failin I extend my offer if you want to talk. 

      Whatever you decide I hope you feel better soon. 

    9. Sonic Fan J

      Sonic Fan J

      Appreciate it @Kiah. I'm actually trying to put a thread together right now to get some conversation going, but it's taking a little longer than I thought it would. Hopefully it'll garner some attention though and put together an engaging discussion.

  10. I'll have to disagree on that design being a slight tweak of the design I prefer. It's a major departure in so many ways and the silhouette only maintains from one angle. Once you rotate the head even slightly further to profile the shape completely changes and is no longer a circle with four triangles. If you use the second example in silhouette I'm more likely to think Jon Talbain from Dark Stalkers then Sonic the Hedgehog. That's a difference that your Spider-man example cannot address since Spider-man from a design standpoint is usually just wearing different costumes, something he does in the comics with any real variation between him depending on which part of the Marvel Multiverse that you're dealing with. I appreciate the effort you've made though to convince me otherwise, but at this point I think my bias against converting things that truly exploit the hand drawn medium without any regard for any type of real world believe-ability may start to get in the way of us having a reasonable discussion. I'm afraid I might be turning into a bit of a stick in the mud and that's not fair to the points or arguments that your making. That said though, I do agree with you that you can't just drop Sonic as is into a live action movie without making any changes. To me that is where the problem fundamentally lies. I just can't see myself liking a realistic design as it has to eschew so much of the complete hand drawn impossibility that creates the character design I love. Impressionism to realistic only really works for me if there is some semblance of realism in the first place, and Sonic surely lacks it. I have to say that in the end it is just such a shame that unlike in Japan we can't accept animation as a blockbuster on a global scale as I would rather have Toei Animation dig up their CD designs and put their best artists, animators, writers, and directors on a movie project to blow me away. As you said before though, we can't always have what we want. In that regard, Paramount may have to accept that even though they want my money that they likely won't get it using Sonic. Besides, I already have expressed above on my dislike of the concepts of the movie beyond just being live action and the design changes that go with it. Nothing they've said has sold there claims or a blockbuster to me. Thanks again though for trying, it's just my stance at this point is probably to inflexible.
  11. Sonic Fan J

    Should Sonic Be Given The Ability To Swim?

    The question you have to ask though is what type of game would benefit from letting Sonic swim? In the the classics the lowest path is typically the path of punishment for not managing to stay at least on the middle route, and as you near the end game having water as an obstacle to avoid as your skills become more refined makes sense. Conversely, in a game like CD where exploration requires you to go under water, not being able to swim is kind of an unjust punishment for doing what you're supposed to in the first place. Perhaps a different perspective is to look at swimming as an option for players to choose instead of running and rolling. The question them though, is since Sonic is known for his pinball physics, how does that translate into swimming gameplay? Perhaps the idea of bouncing off walls like has been suggested already is the best place to start. For example, if swimming was tied to wall jumping then I could see the challenge then being building and using momentum to bounce off the walls with as much travel distance as possible being dependent on how quickly you kick off of a wall.
  12. Of the two pics you provided I honestly expect something similar to the top but with more realistic sized eyes. However, that does not mean I find it acceptable. To me, this is the definitive Sonic the Hedgehog. Sure, it's a hyper-stylized character in a style reminiscent of Felix the Cat, but that is what brought me into the franchise in the first place; the imagery. I also fully acknowledge that it doesn't work in a real life setting, hence the reason I'm someone you can count as against a live action adaption in the first place. Some things just don't work because they can't be translated or adapted faithfully. As an example let's take a part of one of your responses elsewhere on the thread. Batman did indeed have to change, but how much? You say it's drastic and provide another example of a realistic Sonic, but the comparisons are night and day to me. Both the Tim Burton Batman and the comic art comparison share the same silhouette even if the details are different. In the case of your realistic Sonic examples neither have this silhoutte While the top example in this post is close, there can be no question that the silhouette is different unlike the Batman examples. Even for as disliked as they are, the Bay Turtles still have the same iconic silhouettes as they always have. Now also consider the merchandise side of things, as SEGA is a Japanese company and the real money, like with Star Wars, is in merchandising. You are going to have to take whatever the movie design will be and sell it next to other Sonic branded merchandise which uses the iconic look. And how many people are familiar with that image? Well consider, in 2015 Sonic Dash surpassed 100 million downloads (http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/06/08/sonic-dash-passes-100-million-downloads)and had 14 million concurrent players a day (https://venturebeat.com/2015/06/08/sonic-thrives-on-mobile-100m-dash-downloads-14m-monthly-players/) Now also consider that the Sonic Twitter account alone has almost 6 million followers and that as more and more merchandise and clothes come out that more and more people are exposed to that image on a daily basis. If not for BOOM! setting the precedent to deviate even slightly, doing so would almost be the height of foolishness. Their is though one more difference though which is not being addressed though involving any of the examples that any party has argued on this topic, ad that is intent. Outside of Sonic himself, every character that we've posted has been intended to exist in a setting with characters who are supposed to be plausible in real life. Bruce Wayne, Tony Stark, Peter Parker, The Ninja Turtles, Rocket Raccoon, even Howard the Duck, are all characters that were designed to exist in a world extraordinarily similar to our own. Sonic on the other hand, well, just look at the wildlife If you can tell me that those are realistic designs then perhaps the only human present in the original game might better prove my point If that looks like an attempt to be realistic instead of impressionistic then I'll just have to concede that we are on different wave lengths. Regardless, I've never seen Sonic as a franchise that was trying to be realistic, and as a result it has the freedom to not be limited by realism and do what it wants thanks in part to it's cartoon medium. To get rid of that for live action and realism is to undermine the freedom of the artistic choice chosen in the first place. As I said before, to me, this movie is a failure in some form or another and there is really no saving it. Not even F&F and Deadpool movie alumni can change that when I'm being told to think GotG with the descriptions like Tom the cop and the local rural townsfolk come together to save Sonic. It just sounds like a time bomb that's ready to go off before they've even finished building it.
  13. Friendship.

    These are the tenets of Shonen Jump. Not dark and edgy as some shonen genre detractors try to paint it, but these three simple words. Friendship. Effort. Victory. They are words of hope, not style, and Boku no Hero Academia's All Might just embodied all of that in today's episode of the anime and then some. If someone want to accuse Sonic of being a shonen hero, then my word, he should be like All Might and represent the freedom he's supposed to as far as All might represents justice and fighting to save those in need.

    Sorry, kind of ranting there but I kind of stand by what I said. Shonen is not inherently dark and edgy as it's detractors like to say and I find All Might and Boku no Hero Academia are one of the best examples of the tents of Shonen Jump, the leader in the shonen publications for a reason.

  14. Just my final two cents on the design problem with Sonic, I think if using comic book characters as an example then Rocket from GotG as well as Howard the Duck are better characters to look at comparatively as both are anthropomorphic animals. Now as you can see, both characters have changed a lot from their original designs (comic evolution and style changes notwithstanding), but Rocket has always had a design based in reality whereas Howard was pretty much a Disney duck. As a result Howard looks significantly less comic accurate than Rocket, especially in the eyes. Regardless though, both still resemble their current comic counterparts more so than not and are thus reasonably believable and recognizable. Arguably, Howard is not particularly aesthetically pleasing but that plays to his strengths as a character and does not detract from the movie since in GotG he is just a cameo character. The problem is, Sonic is even less realistic than Howard and has proportions more similar to Garfield. The above images demonstrate just how much that design type will be changed. Sonic though, is still more extreme yet than even Garfield as the above and prior examples all at least have two separate eyes, something Sonic does not. This means that Sonic is going to be even further exposed to re-imagining taking him further and further away from what he should be. The question of how far he can go though is also up for debate due to SEGA's insistence on consistent imagery for the brand. On a whole it just seems likely that Sonic's imagery for this movie is going to fail in all regards no matter what path is taken just due to the nature of his design style. Failure for this movie isn't limited to just a character design aspect though. There is also the narrative to be concerned about. Though the writers tell us to think GotG and not Smurfs, we are given this tidbit. In order of importance, this quote places Sonic the lowest with the sheriff and village above him, with the village itself taking top billing. The desperate need to make a relate-able world pushes Sonic further and further from being the focus of the movie and more and more like a catalyst for the human characters to change. Such did not happen to Rocket Raccoon in GotG despite him being an anthropomorphic raccoon. Even Groot, a tree with one line, is treated as a full fledged member of the team with a character arc and pathos without a desperate need to sell his believe-ability to the audience or tell a more human story to support the fantastical character. He's just a part of the world, no explanations needed. No veering away from the source material just to make him "work" for the general audience. Marvel gambled on these obscure an absurd characters and struck gold while still being faithful to the source material. But again, Sonic is even more absurd, and he is anything but obscure. That creates expectations and demands which likely can't be met no matter how hard the production team tries. Paramount is looking for a blockbuster, but to me it looks like they're heading straight for a bust just due to the nature of the franchise that they're courting. On an aside, looking at that plot I can't help but feel like Eggman is just going to be some robotics expert that the government hires to make a machine to catch Sonic. I know I'm being negative, but I'm not being given any reason to have faith in this production yet so how can I be positive?
  15. Had a chance to watch the Progressive commercial with Sonic in it again recently and was reminded how obnoxious I find the light effects that surround Sonic when he jumps and rolls these days. I know the point is to make it look more visually interesting, but I just find it obnoxious. What's wrong with how Sonic curled into a ball in say the OVA or Sonic CD opening and ending? Even the Flicky's Island opening uses a similar look without adding an obnoxious glow.


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