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Sonic Fan J

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Everything posted by Sonic Fan J

  1. While you provide an interesting argument here the weak link in your comparisons lie in how the source material is referenced/used. For Spider-Verse and most of the MCU even with what changes do occur you can tell that everything is still being adapted from the source material if you are even somewhat familiar with it whereas Sonic isn't doing so at all. We've ben told that the only allusions to the source material will be in Easter Eggs. Now that isn't inherently a flaw for the storytellers telling their own take on the character (I mean fanfic writers do it all the time) but is a flaw for creating brand awareness as the average non-fan movie goer is not going to recognize that those are Easter Eggs and that they should look them up to learn about what they are referencing. To them it's just a part of the movie and that's all. It's not worth a second thought and that doesn't really create strong brand synergy or awareness. To put it another way, Spider-Verse and the MCU (and most DC adaptions as well) build their stories and worlds by reshaping the source material to support their story whereas the Sonic movie is discarding the source material to build it's world. Even Sonic X didn't go that far and still mostly took from and adapted from the games. That lack of faith in the source material to build their story from by tweaking and shaping it is part of what makes the movie look unfavorable to a number of us.
  2. I think one of the problems that I've always had with when roboticization was introduced was the questions it raised between SatAM and Archie against the games (sorry I was a kid who asked a lot of questions and still do today). The most prominent question was why couldn't Sonic just bonk them on the head like in the games and free the animal inside. I mean I guess it's not a problem if you started with SatAM or the comics, but I started with the games myself so the differences between the mediums was jarring to me even as a little kid.
  3. Topic is the question obviously, but for a bit of context here a trend I've been noticing being used to argue against or for certain decisions is that Sonic has become a niche franchise that no one cares about anymore. This argument has been used to explain away the movie disregarding near everything about the franchise it is adapting, for why character driven spinoffs won't work, why the budgets of recent games have been minimal, the need to constantly reinvent the wheel, etc, etc. and yet during the SXSW panel today I was fairly positive that I heard Aaron Weber announce during the panel that Sonic Dash has reached 350 million downloads (If someone could fact check this for me since at the time of this posting I couldn't find that moment again). If this number is correct then that would mean that the game has been downloaded more times than the official population of the USA. Even if one accounts for multiple downloads from the same person you are still looking at dozens of millions of people which is anything but a niche number. So, considering the above I represent the thread question; how niche is Sonic, or are his fans just waiting for a reason to return?
  4. Don't have time to watch the video right now, but one thing I like to point out about Amy being a tomboy is that she is also a girly-girl. Her being both is part of what her appeal is to me. She takes to disparate tropes that most people would never put together and embraces both of them. Harmonizing that dichotomy makes her special to me and like Sonic being a jerk with a heart of gold and tails being a nerd with superhuman athletic abilities also defies the tropes and expectations to certain degrees. Further, Amy being a tomboy does not mean she needs no man, just that she enjoys spending time with the guys and partaking in some of the same activities, which she does. Striping her of her either her girly-girlness or tomboyish traits are both disservices to her character in my opinion.
  5. Anyway, the text from Sonic Retro's translation of the story in the Japanese manual of the original game implies that Eggman's actions were more to divert Sonic's attention to rescuing the locals and forcing him to hold back rather then as a means of control. In short, putting animals in robots was neither for control of them or to power them, it was more of a glorified hostage situation to serve as a distraction while he searched for the chaos emeralds.
  6. Sometimes I find myself having to think up contributions to threads that I normal just observe simply because someone says something I just can't ignore but responding to that would be completely off topic. I don't know how to feel about that...

  7. I would honestly disagree with this since Amy is supposedly a tomboy, and at the very least enjoys going on adventures with Sonic and the others so having abilities to keep her head above water is nothing to be ashamed about. More on topic, a factor I haven't seen attributed to battle strength yet is on the psychological side. How well does one give their all when presented with a manipulator, a sentient flamethrower, or a little girl with a toy hammer? How about a feral jungle girl? A bossy kid? A renowned tactician? Or how about when these characters like Sonic start trying to get inside their opponents head, be it through seducing them (even robots for crying out loud), intimidating them, making them question the morality of their actions, their own free will, or just by pointing out and then exploiting their weaknesses? How do you feel that the psychological elements the characters bring to a fight affect the outcome? There is way more to a fight than just power levels and not addressing the nuances makes this tiering read off unfavorably, so through the psychological aspect into the mix and tell me how that changes things (and no, I won't accept just snap their necks as an answer as the character said to do that is actually an extremely emotional character who just happens to be bad at expressing it/good at not showing it).
  8. Well, I'm not going to try and keep up with everyone's reactions to the panel in real time so I'm going to duck out for now. Catch you later SSMB.

    1. Failinhearts

      Failinhearts

      See ya, buddy!

  9. I've never done a Motobug Stream so I don't know anything about how it works, but the Sonic Panel today I'm tempted to check it out (bar anything happening on my end like family in town today showing up and preventing me from watching). That being the case, if I can watch, what do I need to know about Motobug?

    1. tailsBOOM!

      tailsBOOM!

      Here's the link:

      https://cytu.be/r/Motobug

      You can make an account if you want to, but you don't have.  It works very similar to Twitch, but people can also post links to watch in chat like YouTube videos and such.

    2. Sonic Fan J

      Sonic Fan J

      Cool & thanks!

  10. Weird that these ended up merged without any post about it but makes it easier to address now II guess ,especially with Amy constantly showing up in the Blaze version. Anyway though, the biggest thing that to me works against all of these characters is that simply they are affiliated with Sonic first and foremost, and from that perspective you have to deal with the franchise's current reputation (excluding Mania) and the critical panning of Sonic's friends that still goes on. So while theoretically any character could probably hold their ow series (yes even Amy who I see working narratively as following the adventures she goes on to try to get good enough to earn Sonic's respects) being Sonic characters first and foremost in the current environment makes such ventures unwise business decisions as it is unlikely they would be financially viable. If I had to do something though I'd probably make a minigame collection where each character has their own minigame and story as it would both draw in the fans of the friends and the feedback would provide an idea of which ideas were successful and which characters could be financially viable right now beyond Sonic.
  11. Yeah, the things the production team worry about being realistic with versus what they totally disregard does leave me wondering. Nothing seemingly says realistic like cartoon character striped of everything that made him iconic because as long as a cartoon character doesn't have any cartoon traits they are suddenly realistic. Also have to make sure to deprive them of their signature abilities as well to make them more grounded and realistic. Honestly, at my most pessimistic with this film I feel like instead of Sonic the Hedgehog they should have just had a kid nicknamed 'Sonic' because he was the fastest kid on the track team. From there just make him Tom the Cop's son and have them go on a family road trip to San Francisco so Tom can see the city he believes he's good enough to be a cop in and have them get embroiled in a domestic terrorist plot and save the day to show that Tom has what it takes. At least if you did it that way you wouldn't be constantly asking what do they have to take away from Sonic the Hedgehog to make him fit the studio's vision and it frankly sounds like a far more believable film that can work on its own and take advantage of the directors and producers in question no less the live action setting. In short, at my most pessimistic everything I've heard about this movie would work better if you just divorced the Sonic franchise from it instead divorcing Sonic from his franchise and making a movie about that.
  12. Sometimes I wonder when power scaling became a thing in Sonic and replaced the adventure aspect of the series.

    Of course I know it's more of a fanbase thing since until Infinite went all DBZ on Sonic and Silver most games were about the locations traveled and the people met along the way. As someone who comes to Sonic for the adventure and not Dragon Ball style beatdowns however the focus on such conversations can be more than a little off putting.

    Perhaps it's why I like Shadow's background so much as an exploration of a character and punching people in the face has nothing go do with any of it. Shadow was made to save a life and he had such a deep and personal relationship with that life that losing it just completely messed him up, leaving him in a state of mind that Gerald, Black Doom, and Mephiles all tried to take advantage of to further their own malicious ends. There's so much to him and almost none of it involves combat at all, rather it focuses on who Shadow is and how he reflects upon himself. It's great character work (potentially anyway, though I enjoyed it) and invests me in the character without needing any of the action that I come to Sonic for; dynamic movement at high speed.

    Of course it's not just Shadow, but lots of characters in this franchise who encourage exploration and adventure over getting into fights. Sonic and Mighty being globetrotters out to see the world, Tails wanting to be a hero like Sonic, Knuckles and Rouge being treasure hunters, Amy heading out to try and catch up with Sonic, Shadow going into the world he deigns to protect and facing himself along the way, Silver interacting with the world before it became as he knows it, etc, etc.

    The whole scaling and what deities can the Sonic beat today or how much of the cast Shadow can snap the neck of in an instant are conversations that are just so far outside of what I expect when approaching a children's franchise about a fast running hedgehog on his whimsical globetrotting adventures. It's honestly kind of jarring and just feels so out of place. The need to power scale everything that some people have just feels so inappropriate in Sonic to me and leaves me nostalgic for when characters were dynamic individuals and were worth more than their ability to hurt other characters. I want to go on an adventure with characters who enjoy going on adventures (part of why I'm not fond of what I've heard of the Sonic movie since Sonic seems to totally lack that aspect of his character from what I've heard so far) and seeing their reactions to what they find and who they meet along the way. I don't need Sonic to turn into Dragon Ball Super where it's all about who Goku can fight next when Sonic's strengths has always lay in going to and seeing new places and meeting new people along the way.

    Anyway, that's enough of this rant, especially since I wandered away from my own question quite a bit there.

    1. Wraith

      Wraith

      Sonic feels kind of like it subverts power levels more than anything. I never got why so many conversations hedged on it when has show he can beat anyone by just hanging back and playing it smart. 

      Shadow may have dozens of powers but he's never actually overcome Sonic in a fight, so could he really be considered as strong as fandom makes him out to be? 

      Amy is often characterized as weak, but she's shown to be capable of overcoming many of the same obstacles as others, just with a different approach.

      Power scaling is worthless in the context of a series like this. 

    2. Diogenes

      Diogenes

      i find power levels in any series to be pretty pointless, at least for anything more than a vague sense of the characters' roles in relation to each other. even in the best case the story determines the power levels, not the other way around; no story worth a damn has been written by looking at power levels to determine who "should" win. and you can't boil down a character's combat ability (much less their general competence, much less their value in the story) to a simple number or a place on a list anyway. it's basically just fuel for nerd fights, and if that's where it stays, as just silly discussions about who could beat who, that's fine, but thinking it's the driving force of the story is a mistake.

    3. Kuzu the Boloedge

      Kuzu the Boloedge

      Its nerd culture at its simplest; "Can X beat Y" is an age old question. It's why Death Battle is so popular.

       

      But yes, it does bring out the absolute worst in people and it's the main reason I refuse to associate with the power scaling community. It just becomes a dick measuring contest for your favorite character 

  13. Sonic Fan J

    IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

    Cool.
  14. It's a long read but you should check out the Penders topic here if you really want to see just how messed up and generally hated the man is. I won't go into it more than that here though simply because talking about Penders could derail this topic as much as a Shadow discussion could.
  15. Like most questions of this ilk the typical answer is yes and no. As Blaze does indeed have more than enough to work with to build her own sub-franchise you have to contend with the fact that you'd have to create interest first. To do so you'd have to either make a new Sonic game where she is the focus to show off the character and hope she successfully draws the attention they want or you would provide rereleases of the games that she was playable in to see if there is still interest in the character in today's market. The problem there of course is would people believe that Sonic Team could recapture the magic or would they blindly buy a potentially misrepresenting game of who Blaze was (06 to most of her fans) just because she is on the cover? There's a lot of work that would go into just greenlighting such a project regardless of if it could work simply due to whether or not she is still marketable.
  16. Yeah I knew Finitevus wasn't a Penders creation but with how he tried to play the whole creators' rights angle despite his mistreatment of his fellow writers and that he also got his hands on 'Evil' Sonic I could easily see Penders using the Warp Rings to try to get legal action taking against the movie, especially now with the current perspective being that this movie is taking inspiration from things like the Sonic Bible and other early American Sonic tropes. It just seems like the perfect opportunity for Penders to make a further ass of himself while trying to also make an ass of everyone else he worked with. Hopefully that won't happen as Sonic doesn't need more legal troubles with Penders because of Archie, though it would be comical if it happened in its own way since outside of BOOM! almost everything American based for Sonic always seems to come back to Penders. Now if only I could tell at that point if my tears would from laughter or despair...
  17. Sonic Fan J

    IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog

    So just wanted to confirm since issue 15 is supposed to be out next week if we are getting previews this Wednesday?
  18. Well I'm calling it night SSMB so have a good one.

    1. Bloxxerboy

      Bloxxerboy

      Have a good night!

    2. tailsBOOM!

      tailsBOOM!

      Noight

  19. I could continue to push the importance of the architecture that the design is built upon but I think @Wraith covered a fair counterpoint so I'll drop it myself for now. Instead I'll address this. There are two problems with this that I am aware of and makes this argument kind of hard to buy into. 1) I've heard on numerous occasions that this movie is meant for the general audience and not Sonic fans so saying that Sonic fans who see this poster are going to see the movie seems a little strange to me especially considering how most vocal Sonic fans have been reacting to it. 2) Now this is probably even more important since you decided to play the nostalgia card, but Sonic fans who stopped playing Sonic are nostalgic for the classics as Mania proved or the Adventure Era based on the constant demand for Sonic Adventure 3 to the point that its Facebook page is still going to my knowledge. But here is the problem with those groups; the classic fans hated the adventure redesign and birthed the green eyes memes while Adventure fans have an acute eye for detail constantly bringing up the effects that the power ups had on Sonic's appearance as well as the Soap Shoes. Considering how important these things are to Sonic fans I'm surprised that you believe that their recollection of the franchise is so fuzzy that they would watch this movie unironically if at all simply seeing the movie design and ideas behind it as Sonic continuing to fall from grace and more justification of them leaving the fandom. To me you are far too undermining how important Sonic as he was is to his fans who left the fanbase and that you can believe that a movie that is supposedly not even for the fans and drastically changed his design architecture will bring these former fans back is amazing to me. In a way I feel like you give Sonic's fans too much credit and faith in them being forgiving and open. Considering the typical discourse in this thread that further surprises me.
  20. Sonic and Cap not being the same species is kind of irrelevant because Cap keeps the architecture his details are designed on while Sonic does not. Cap is still a human male in all of his main appearances in the comics and MCU while Sonic is not a Mickey Mouse/Felix the Cat design style character in the movie like he is in most of his main appearances. It's drastically different design philosophies for the sake of realism which Sonic was never designed to even imitate in any regard where as Captain America was designed to stand next to Hitler of all people as anti-Nazi war propaganda. Realism works for Cap because of why he was designed and the fact that he was not designed as a stylized analogue to begin with but as a human male following the same anatomical principles. Sonic doesn't have that luxury so as a result half of his design is thrown out to make him look believable, which is itself subjective.
  21. I probably should give you some time to read my post first but I'll answer again since you are still working on the same comparisons of details and not acknowledging the architecture underneath them. Batman in ever single live action movie appearance like his main comic iteration is built on the architecture of a human male. Sonic in the movie is not built on the same architecture as his traditional design and that creates a completely different beast regardless of sharing the same details (bar arm color, his mono eye, his banana/ jellybean nose, his gloves, and his shoes). When you have to change the architecture of his design you are changing one of the fundamentals of it and what allows the details to come together in such an iconic and recognizable way. You can't just ignore that the architecture is different in Sonic's case.
  22. I've mentioned it before and I'll have to mention it again since you posted this list, but these are the most superficial or surface level of details, they are not the fine details which is what most people are comparing it to. And before you fall back on your Captain America example again let me just ask you if in both the comics and the MCU if Captain America is a human male? ... Alright, so with that out of the way let's move on to the important detail/question about Sonic that you are missing with your list of details. Is Movie Sonic and Game Sonic both anthropomorphic animals based on the design Style of Mickey Mouse and Felix the Cat? ... As the answer is pretty obvious you now have the dissonance that creates the disdain for this design. While Captain America is a human male in comic and live action while Sonic is not an anthropomorphic animal in the design style of Mickey Mouse and Felix the Cat in both mediums and that is one of his defining details which is absent from your list. And just to stop the Rocket Racoon comparison, Rocket in less stylized comics is typically drawn as a racoon standing on it's hind legs with a bit of bipedalism added to his design. This is also true even in the more stylized takes on him and at no point is he ever presented as an anthropomorphic animal in the style of Mickey Mouse and Felix the Cat. Now while you are right that the Mickey Mouse/Felix the Cat design style does not translate into a realistic live action design, the fact that it doesn't is what has lead to so much disdain about this design in the first place. Absolutely no one asked for a live action Sonic the Hedgehog movie. There was no demand for such and the decision was an artist decision based on live action selling better than animated to an older audience even though Incredibles 2 more than proves with it's billion dollar revenue that animated sells just fine to its target demographic, which is the same as the Sonic franchise's on a whole; kids. Bottom line though is that you're comparison to comic characters like Captain America and Rocket don't work because they did not change a human male into something other than a human male and they did not change a bipedal racoon into anything other than a bipedal racoon. With Sonic however they took the structure that his details go onto, an anthropomorphic animal in the vein of Mickey Mouse and Felix the Cat, and got rid of it in favor of what most people are seeing as a human male. That is a powerful distinction and one that can't be ignored. The details being the same is nice and all, but you could put the ads in Times Square on your house and say it's effectively the same because it's the Times Square ads still. But doing so completely ignores the architecture under the details and that architecture is every bit as important as the details attached to it. I apologize if my tone comes across as aggressive, but at the bare minimum I hope this helps you see the problem with your comparison; Sonic in the movie design has different architecture under his details unlike most of your examples and ignoring that in favor of the details only is cutting out half or more of the design and what makes it iconic.
  23. Meant to get to this sooner, but it's kind of funny that you say that since making him furry like this was so he wouldn't look naked.
  24. Well, I'm focusing on other projects this evening so I'll catch you later SSMB.

    1. Failinhearts

      Failinhearts

      Night, buddy!

  25. I agree with that but I was more wondering the message and mentality behind the movie design. A good design tells a story of its own and gives you insight into the character and while we can argue that this is not a good design there still is an intention behind it and I'm curious about the deeper stuff than just make it realistic and grounded. I'm a hobby artist myself so this type of thing interests me. Crazy as it sounds it is a legitimate concern. Heck, if you go by the "leak" the only robots Eggman uses are drones and not a single actual mech or machine with his usual flair so only running may sound silly but it isn't quite. As I said, Sonic isn't just as sprinter and that brings certain expectations, especially in an action movie. To me at least sprinting and long distance running is more entertaining in competition where as parkour can be entertaining on it's own. Again I'll reference the Sonic CD opening and I've seen some spectacular use of the parkour system in Lost World as well to make me concerned about the dynamism of the character and what the intention is behind not giving him gloves. It speaks of an intention and I want to know what that is be it good or bad.
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