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Posts posted by TideKai

  1. 7 hours ago, DabigRG said:

    Eh, it could just be how he prefers that stuff to look.

    But yeah, it's probably because there is technically an inherent connection lingering despite the branching. Partially because he made it such a major aspect in the first place.


    3 hours ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

    Seems like your standard comic book universe sourcebook profiles to me, aside from the aforementioned flourishes unique to Penders himself (I.e. family trees).


      Reveal hidden contents


    Ah, okay, it was probably just me then. I wasn't purposefully trying to nitpick or just find another small inconsequential thing to rag Penders about, so I hope I didn't come off that way. Was just reading these data files and noticed he still used a similar format. Sorry for derailing the conversation about something so minuscule, haha.

    (On a tangent, the backstory Penders gave Amy was interesting. Not terrible to me or anything like that, but interesting. Sorry, that's pretty much my cop-out word when describing something, haha.)

  2. Hey guys, poking out of my months-long lurking to post something minor and non-important, but I thought it was kind of interesting.

    I was reading through someone's sort of review through the Penders Era issues and sort of delving a bit into the convoluted and poorly written lore Penders had made, and there was some images of the comic's data files that went into the backgrounds and info of the characters. I noticed that Penders used nearly the same exact format for his data files on the Lara-Su Chronicles characters.

    Sega Data Files:



    And then the Penders data file:




    I don't think it's a big deal or anything like that, but just sort of interesting.  I think it's kind of amusing that he used a format so close to the one in the comic. He couldn't...change it up a bit or think of something else? It had to be this similar? To me, it shows how many strings Penders still has attached to the Archie comics despite his insistence that they're completely different and he's moved on. But like I said, just something super minor that I thought might be interesting to share.

    I don't know if anyone's brought this up so if it's already been noticed, my apologies.

  3. Thank you for your reply, @horridus. They're always very detailed and well-written and I enjoy reading them. Much appreciated!

    Going off on the "stuck in the glory days" part, I definitely feel Penders put Sonic on this weird pedestal. As much as I still love Sonic, I wonder if Penders realizes that the series doesn't have the status it used to have back in the 90's. The sad truth is that Sonic isn't as popular anymore, and as a consequence he doesn't rake in as much profit. That kind of makes it all the more tragic when Penders clings so relentlessly to him. The comics (and arguably Sonic as a whole) is pretty much an end of an era. He's no longer the powerhouse he used to be, and the fact that Penders is clutching onto something that has long since passed on and moved on really tells of his current "achievements" and things like that. It's like that one guy you know who constantly reminsices and worships his high school days despite being out of high school for along time, because that's where he peaked.

    I don't know how much of the love drama was Bollers or how much of it was Penders, but good God am I glad that it's all over with and done. Those were some of the worst issues with the comics. I don't mind a tiny bit of romance drama (even if I prefer that there'd be none at all), but man did it go way overboard. I remember being a kid and reading the infamous issue where Sally slaps Sonic after he comes back from space. 

    And I admit, I do like some of the concepts that Penders introduced...he was just awful at executing them. That's something that's always too bad when it happens. You can have an amazing concept, but if you suck at actually making it work than well, tough luck I guess. When I was younger, I loved the idea of Knuckles belonging to this long lineage that's basically royalty, and seeing all the potential things his ancestors have done that led up to Knuckles's current situation. Seeing how Flynn writes them out, you can see these concepts do have potential and can be interesting. It took an entirely different writer though, haha.

    Reading more information about the Penders and Bollers feud...yikes. Really, yikes. I may not have liked Bollers writing too much more than Penders, but I still prefer him over the Knuckles stories that Penders was cranking out. It especially helps that Bollers seems to have moved on from his Sonic days and went on to do other things while Penders is still clinging on to those glory days. I'm going to be honest though and say that I can't help but feel this is partially the editor's fault as well. At the very least, he should be able to sort of strike some sort of balance. Or at the very, absolute least, he should make sure things are consistent. That should be the bare minimum. Instead of letting things wildly contradict each other, though I know that's also because Penders was adamant that the 25YL stories were the absolute real future of the characters. Slight tangent, but that's why I think the 25YL segment shouldn't have gone as long as it did. I can't help but feel that it's too tiring to constantly double check to make sure things line. Eventually, something's going to get messed up, especially on a ship that's as sloppily run as the Archie comics.

    The Knuckles movie is one of my favorite things about this whole mess. Like, part of me secretly wishes that Penders won the lottery just so we could see this trainwreck come to life. There's so many things wrong with this. The fact that he thinks he can have complete creative control over a mascot that he doesn't own a single part of. The fact that he thinks a Knuckles movie would generate enough of a profit for SEGA to be on board. This is one of those projects that I really wish got concept art and other things like his other Sonic movie pitch. I would just love to see his vision for a Knuckles movie.

  4. 8 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

    He's not based on super sonic. Shadow the hedgehog retcons any possiblity of the speculation that shadow might be based on the mural by strait up saying all the relics on the arc are ancient black arms stuff. And he's black and red like they , and his spins pointing up, are like demonic horns like the ones they have

    I feel like that brings him way to close to sonic in a way i'm not fond of. But like what you like man, i'm not the god of sonic thought.

    I dunno that kinda seems dull to me? But like you said its preference. I like shadow being a dude who's introspective and kind of soft spoken, he got problems and he's dealing with em and life the best he can. And I can relate to that. But I'm glad you can derive an entire different version of the character and get entertainment from it, its speaks to the versatility of his character and how he's lasted so long.

    An extra edit to show how differently we view the character. In an earlier comment you speak about how he claims he's  the ultimate life form and not. The reason I like soft spoken shadow is because he doesn't claim that and he is. He talks softly and walks with a gigantic stick that can stop time. Like in sonic 06 where like the devil tells him that everyone will betray him and he's just like " nah" and then beats his ass. Or like in the archie comics, where he fights with knuckles, chokes him out, saves him whilst fighting him , and then fights someone else. And knuckles is the one to admit " Oh yeah if we could have kept fighting I wouldn't have been able to keep up " . And even before that point in the comic where like he's having a talk with a character and how he feels his a monster.

    I dunno I don't really interpret forces as what you saying? Shadow no matter what version he is, is known for the occasional joke. He can be snarky if he wants to, even in sonic 06 he's like " Better keep up " to sonic. And in the recent comic he likes bodies neo metal sonic and sonic is like " Oh its gonna make him stronger " and shadow's like " What are you scared " .  Shadow's always had a sort a snark about him. And to go into infnite, I don't really think he beat the shit out of him, he kicks him a few times, nothing major. Tells him to not show his face, and leaves. Dunno reads like edgy angsty shadow to me.

    But I think that speaks to how wildly different we interpreted that series of events.

    Yeah, I think this is just a case of us interpreting parts of the character differently and wanting different things from him. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

    I'm sorry if that sounds like a really cheap and cop-out answer, I promise I'm not throwing away any of what you said. It's just my entire counter-argument is pretty much just me saying "This what I personally feel and would like", and it's all subjective. And I don't think it's something that you can really argue with, you know what I mean? All of the events from the games you listed I see them in a different light, but that's probably because I have my own sort of personal definitions and measurements of some character traits, like "edgy" and "angst." 

    So, yeah. I'm afraid this is one we're going to have to agree to disagree on, haha. But I like that, there's different parts of Shadow that appeal to us and that we like! In the end, we can both agree that he's one cool dude.

    Image result for shadow gif

    10 hours ago, StaticMania said:

    That could work for Shadow.

    An idea: His spines actually are suppose to be down like Sonic's and the only reason they're always pointed upward is specifically because he does them that way....is perfect.

    I'm sorry, I swear I didn't mean to completely gloss over your post. Please forgive me!

    There's just something I love about the idea of Shadow being really meticulous about his appearance. I can totally see him spending an hour in front of the mirror every morning and patting back his quills and brushing his chest fur, hahaha.

    3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

    He's been like that since 06.

    Shadow WAS the early 2000s.

    I'm very sorry, I'm not really sure what you're say or mean here? I got like 3 hours of sleep last night, so my mind is probably just a little fuzzy, haha.

  5. 8 hours ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

    No, you're good. I love Omega as well. He's badass. He's funny. His entire motivation is based on something unapologetically selfish and inherent on revenge, something risky and almost unseen for a character not aligned with villainly in a series with a demographic like this. He and Rouge definitely have the most anti-hero potential out of Team Dark in my opinion. 


    3 hours ago, Wraith said:

    Omega is not only a great idea but also hilarious and everyone who's saying ditch him lacks creativity. Omega being a straight-shooting ball of rage to comical levels contrasts well with Rouge who always has another agenda. Shadow would actually probably find it pretty refreshing how predictable Omega is by comparison. Having a loud distraction that can also take a beating makes sense for characters that lean on stealth, too. 

    He just...wouldn't be the brightest. He's very one track minded in his goals which Shadow...understands, to be frank. He's been there. The whole vengeance thing. 

    Aw, thank you guys so much. It makes me happy to see others who love Omega too, haha.

    Along with what you guys have said, I think he's a fun character. A walking arsenal who's really full of himself and will shoot anything down, while also having a sense of humor. I also think the friendship he has with Shadow and Rouge is kind of sweet, and shows this other side to this team full of anti-heroes. He's just a really fun and engaging character to me, and I really like him and the Team Dark interactions. I do agree with the idea that made Rouge and Omega and tied too much to Team Dark at the cost of them having meaningful interactions outside the team, but I think that's something you can definitely fix by simply showing it. Omega can definitely have his own agenda outside of Team Dark.

    Sometimes a lot of the reason why I like something just boils down to, "He's just a funny walking robot who blows things up. I like that." 

    2 hours ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

    Broadly speaking, I tend to agree with the notion that "axing" characters or labeling them as unnecessary is itself unnecessary, but if anyone fits this description, it would be the Babylon Rogues. Even then, they obviously serve a purpose in the Riders series, but generally it feels like they could've just created a racing game that didn't involve them or maybe involved an interesting new character instead of the boring cookie-cutter rivals that they are. Even when I was young, I thought the Rogues just seemed like clutter. They only exist for that very specific sub-series and for me there's almost nothing interesting or appealing about them as characters. I like almost every Sonic character to some extent, but it's hard for me to muster up anything better than stony cold indifference for the Rogues. The thing is, it seems like the "lore" behind them has some chance to be interesting, but the characters themselves don't do anything for me.

    However, I do kind of agree with this. If there's one group of characters that I feel have the most trouble with meshing with the cast and series, definitely the Babylon Rogues. I agree with everything you've said about them and I probably couldn't say it better, haha. I think they're probably "trapped" by the fact that they were written with specific and limiting circumstances in mind (the Riders series). I'm definitely indifferent to them as well.

    3 hours ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

    I don't resent their fans or anything, in fact I think it's kind of cool when people can see some value in something that I can't.

    I think this is a really sweet sentiment! It's one I always try to keep in mind. Even if you don't like something, someone else may really appreciate it, and I think that's swell. For the characters that I dislike in the series, I understand that others like them for the reasons I don't and that those characters appeal to them. Everybody loves somebody sometimes!

  6. 3 hours ago, DabigRG said:

    The aliens thing was Karl Bollers, with maybe a hint of Romy Chacon.

    Ah, really? I always get which stories were written by Penders and which were written by Bollers mixed up...I guess Penders was mostly doing the secondary stories and the Echidna ones while Bollers did the main ones (until he left)?

    Speaking of Bollers, I know there were some old archived forum posts that sort of detailed the internal feud he had with Penders. Does anyone still have access to those?

  7. 28 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:


    But he hasn't said he's the ultimate life form in years? On occasion he gets a bit like don't push me, or get out of my face. But That's him being cocky. I dunno it not to be rude, it just seems like you want Vegeta and shadow has never really been that. And I would argue shadow's parallel to sonic's cockyness is shadow's will and determination. Its a trait described in a lot of bios " He will do anything with in his power to achive his goal " its even built into his moveset. If he can't run faster than you , he will warp time and space so he is faster than you.

    I hated shadow in that show, and Knuckles too. Not for the reasons you think? Or kind of for the reasons you think, but why those reasons are are different than what you would imagine. To put it simply, they didn't go far enough with either them.

    Shadow... don't think ever whispered. And .... hasn't talked about his " purpose " for years. He's a serious guy sure, but you might be exaggerating somethings. I To be fair I don't think they are moving away from that. Shadow just wan't in forces enough to indicate anything, if the comic is any indication he's just as angst ridden as he ever was. Though he came off a bit cocky in one of the later issues. I dunno, shadow isn't the type to just blow shit up. He's just... a focused goal oriented dude. Its why him and sonic clashing works. Sonic's like chill guy who doesn't think about much, and shadow's kind of thinking about everything. Different perspectives. But again, you have a right to your opinion the matter

    I've never watched Dragon Ball, so I can't comment about the Vegeta comparison.

    I was also joking with the whispering comment. Probably should have made that more obvious. Oops.

    I don't know, I just think when Shadow's written to be really super serious like that, he's just...kind of dull to me. I like Shadow when he's a cocky and smug jackass. It gives him more personality and it makes him more entertaining to me. I like when characters have personality and flair. And I know he hasn't talked about his purpose and past for a while. I'm happy about that fact and that it's something he's finally seemed to move on from. I'm pretty sure I said that in my post. I also haven't really read the IDW comics aside from a few previews, so I can't comment on that comparison either. 

    That's why I kind of like Shadow in Forces. His line of "Should've hired a Defense Squad for the Defense Squad, eh Doctor?" got a laugh out of me, and I absolutely love how when Infinite shows up, he goes completely ham on him and beats the ever-living shit out of him and then calls him pathetic right to his (probably cracked and bleeding) face, and then warps off like he couldn't care less. I love that. I'd take that over boring serious rival Shadow or uber edgelord angst Shadow from the early 2000's. 

    To me, the whole idea of the parallel between Sonic and Shadow is that they have the same core traits: they're both willful, determined, and egocentric. But they manifest in different ways between the two. In Sonic, he's a bit more light-hearted and benevolent when it comes to these traits. In Shadow, they're more negative and destructive. That's what makes their rivalry interesting to me. Part of the reason Shadow appealed to me in the first place and why he still does is that he's so...over the top. He's a secret military experiment who's immortal and can warp time and space. Granted, I may not entirely like that backstory, but it was so crazy to me as a kid that I loved it. He just does whatever he wants and doesn't give two shits about what anyone else thinks. I think that's great, and something they should roll with a bit more.

    Also, Shadow's "I'm the coolest!" from SA2 still makes me go into hysterics every time I hear it. 

    I think in the end, it just boils down to a difference in personal preference. We both want different things out of Shadow and he appeals to us in different ways. But hey, that's not a bad thing, yeah? I'd say that's a good thing!

  8. 2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

    If I may " It would suck to just remove characters because someone likes them somewhere and i would prefer people to be happy rather than characters just be gotten rid of to appease my ego "

    Maybe I wouldn't have worded it so harshly, but I guess that's the gist of what I'm trying to say, haha. I just think there are very, very few "active" characters in the series that really deserve to be completely removed without at least an attempt to try and implement them better. Like, no one is incapable of being "fixed" (heck, I would even make an argument that a retooled Elise could be a good addition to the cast). And I know, I know...this whole argument basically boils down to "make character good, NOT BAD" and it's a really simple argument that's very vague in execution. It's just that I think all the characters have something going for them that makes them unique and interesting. It's just how they're put into the stories and how they're being used.

    2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

    Omega litterally exists because Team Dark needed a third. He interacts with no one most of the time besides shadow and rouge, he is often thrown out anyway when stories focus on shadow and rouge. And his friendship to shadow and rouge contributes largely nothing. He's the " Power" but shadow can do whatever destructive damage he can do, and even more so. And Omega is a large loud murderous robot so you know he can't sneak. He doesn't even contribute much to his team, often just used as a plot device.

    I fully aspect that if there is some 3d sonic reboot omega is gone. First.

    Now I agree with the statement above, I don't really have any drive to actively axe someone because somebody likes them and they could be fixed. But omega never had or has huge fanbase, so even getting rid of him wouldn't really be much.

    Edit: Omega acts with the other so little if not at all in the games that up untill forces you could pretend that Omega isn't real and is a collective fever dream shadow and rouge are having

    I...actually love Omega. Like, he's one of my favorite characters...I love Team Dark. They're my favorite Team. I love them. Would take them all out to dinner if I could. I'd pay.

    (But again, almost all my opinions on the characters are subjective and all over the place. I should probably be quiet, ahaha.)


  9. 2 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

    That's an interesting interpretation. Though its a bit contradictory given his shoes were always scuffed up.

    However, that's the head canon i had for sonic boom shadow. in the end the lack of sonic boom's shadow's character is a result of... well they never got to finish the stories they wanted to tell, so... we got nothing. In my mind he was a rich kid with dead parents who's kinda full of himself. He was the only one out of the redesigned sonic boom characters to nice clean stuff on. So I assumed he had the fresh air boost sneakers.

    I like shadow being taken a bit too seriously personally. More so now more than ever where everyone is joke time, I can appreciate this


    Anywho he's a character with a similar temperament with a similar quirk




    Yeah, I mean it's definitely not a perfect headcanon, but it's one that's kind of stayed with me as a kid. Shadow fluffing his spines was this detail that struck out to me, and his fluffy chest fur always looked like something that he would like, comb or something to me, ahaha. Shadow was my absolute favorite character as a kid, and I was obsessed with him. I admit I still really like him today, even if there are parts about him I don't like and think are pretty flawed.

    Eh, I guess I just like the idea of Shadow being really haughty and sort of narcissistic. I think it'd be a nice kind of parallel to Sonic's own ego and cockiness. And if Shadow's going to constantly remind everyone how he's the ultimate lifeform, might as well roll with it. Like, he knows he's the ultimate lifeform. He knows he's supposed to be the epitome of perfection (well not really, but you know, haha), and he'll make sure you know as well.

    As for Shadow in Sonic Boom...eh, he was almost 100% fan service and integrated poorly in my opinion, but I don't mind too much since it was all tongue-in-cheek and was just meant to be, well, fan service.

    One of the main reasons why I loved (and still love, to be honest) Shadow to this day is that he can be so over the top. I want them to stretch that out a bit. Not too much, but just a little. Like, Shadow going around blowing stuff just because he can. I'd prefer that to Shadow constantly whispering and being sad about his past and his purpose in life and all that. The whole angst-ridden Shadow thing wasn't really something I was a fan of. I'm personally glad that they seemed to be moving away from that with Forces. I'm not saying make Shadow in some wise-cracking jokester like Sonic; still make him have a serious nature but with a bit of flair to it so he's not just a generic sad and grumpy character.

    It reminds me a bit of Eggman in '06. They took away almost all of his cartoonish flair and style and just made him a generic bad guy villain without any of his bombastic personality, and as a consequence he's just...boring and bland.

    But I should probably reiterate that this is all my subjective opinion and probably won't be agreeable with a whole lot of people, haha.

    Also, I'm afraid I don't know who that dapper man in your posted gif is.

  10. On 1/10/2019 at 6:44 PM, horridus said:

    You're welcome. It was an odd period in comics history, and the Image Story in particular is one of those things that came to define the decade in which it happened, for better or worse. I've got a bit of fascination for that particular period in US comics given that its the era in which I grew up, even IF my comic of choice was a Hedgehog rather than a superhero, heh.

    Definitely agree with you. Something I like to discuss is how a certain piece of media, whether it be movies or books or video games or whatever, can be heavily influenced by the time period it came out. Sonic is definitely a good example of how he embodies a lot of themes and attitudes of the 90's and how that contributed to his popularity. I've always wanted to make a thread about it...but that's another story for another day, haha.

    I think someone in the thread about 50 pages ago or something about how Penders seems to have a mindset about Sonic and the comic industry in general that is stuck in the 90's. What are your thoughts about that, horridus?

    On 1/10/2019 at 6:44 PM, horridus said:

    Your suspicions are quite correct. Now, obviously, there's no post going around wherein Penders declares anything like that, but when you read the content of his stories as well as his statements elsewhere, it lends a LOT of credence to the idea that Penders never really wanted to write a book meant for children, and given the comparatively little oversight he had, basically tried to convert the book into something more 'legitimate'. Hence you get all these half-baked attempts at 'mature' subjects and 'mature' storytelling, as well as everyone speaking like a middle aged man who reeds the thesaurus for recreation. What really clinches it though is that he really, really does not care about anything of Sonic that didn't originate from the comic, or from him. See, while the comic was ostensibly there to promote the video games and the SatAM cartoon series around at the time, Penders has made it a point of pride that he never really played any of the games, and as for SatAM? Well, let's take a count- firstly, he tried to permanetly kill off Sally in order to motivate Sonic. Secondly, he mentioned wanting to kill off Rotor and Antoine because he couldn't think of anything to do with them. He succeeded in permanently killing off Robotnik for a time, and on his forum even went on to say that the Dark Legion could 'eat Eggman for breakfast along with any of his incarnations'. Even more damning, in a thread on said forum, he said that in order for a Sonic film to succeed, it would need to 'grow beyond the games and comics'. Heck, when the Sonic Adventure adaptation was forced down on the book, he STILL couldn't bother to do any basic research and simply chose to shoehorn his own shit in where it did not belong (the detour to Cat Country). 

    It's incredibly, painfully clear that Penders was never really interested in Sonic for his own sake, and saw Sonic more as a means towards an end that he would never otherwise achieve on his own. One of the reasons he latched onto Knuckles so readily is because Knuckles was a blank slate that he could do whatever he wanted with, and that in turn led to this incredibly derivative, weird ass science fiction story that fixated on the concept of destiny and lineage and so on and so forth, with elements bluntly stolen from his favorite franchises like Superman, Star Trek and even Dune. Hence why as time went on, Knuckles and the Echidna became the most important aspect of the book at the expense of everything else. 

    Hah, I've always suspected that since revisiting the comics as an adult, but it's nice to see that it's true. I've always had that weird inkling of Penders shoving all this crap into the comic because he desperately wanted to tell some kind of epic original story. It's especially telling when you read his list of "inspirations." Now, again, I'm not saying that kids are totally incapable of enjoying or understanding mature and deeper themes. However, a talented writer (which Penders is not) is able to weave it into a story that is still accessible to someone who is younger. I can say right now that as a kid, half of what was happening in the comic utterly confused me. I didn't care of course, since it was Sonic and Sonic could do whatever as long as it was Sonic. I think it's a good example, though, of how out-of-touch Penders can be with his material and his audience. I mean, would you hand Dune or Game of Thrones to a 8-10 year old kid and expect them to completely understand and enjoy all the parts of the story? 

    Penders comes off as the kind of person to me who wants to be remembered for making some sort of epic, deep, and heroic story. Unfortunately, the only thing that he's been on board with for an extended period of time and has seen any kind of success with is the Sonic comic, so I guess that became his sort of outlet for all of his pent-up ideas. Or maybe Penders is that kind of guy who thinks a story can't have any merit unless it has a huge amount of backstory baggage or something like that. When I read the Knuckles comic or some of the crazy stories of Sonic fighting aliens in an intergalatic war, it really makes me wonder just what Penders was trying to achieve.

    It's too bad, because while I don't agree with how he did it, I do like how Penders tried to take the Sonic comic in a more grounded and serious direction. I do like some of the concepts that he's come up with. I just think he's horrible at the execution.

    On 1/10/2019 at 6:44 PM, horridus said:

    Penders has... an INCREDIBLY warped perspective on such things. See, he doesn't just denigrate the other writers on the book- he's such a blinkered fanboy that he has pretty much declared that 'only the original creators do it right' when it comes to the crap that HE likes, and even when other writers come along and are basically the source of a book becoming a success (such as the case of X-Men and Daredevil), he will still insist they bow and scrape of the original creators, regardless of how much or how little said original creators actually contributed to the popularity of a property (For context, X-Men and Daredevil were both the red-headed stepchildren of Marvel until they were re-invented and re-vamped by later creators). He feels so strongly about this, he actually threw a BITCH FIT when someone pointed out that the Daredevil TV series takes entirely after said later run. This is what forms the basis of his criticism towards Flynn (with him flip flopping between slamming him for 'wasting' characters or 'relying' on older characters), but of course, NONE of it applies to Penders himself or his own body of work, despite the fact that without Sonic he wouldn't have had any kind of career.

    This makes no sense...wasn't Penders a "secondary" writer that came onto the book? Like, he wasn't one of the original writers? So...he's being a hypocrite. Nice.

    I was thinking about the incident where another writer (Scott Fulop, I think? Or Scott Shaw? Something like that) was also suing Archie for copyright over his characters, or when Penders was making those tweets about supporting (and I think showing up at it too?) the lawsuit of another person who worked under Archie (maybe one of the two that I mentioned before). That seems like someone who's pretty supportive of his fellow employees working for a comic company...but then he turns around and belittles their contributions or downplays them to make himself seem better. I can't wrap my head around it. I know that Archie's not exactly the best company, which is probably putting it very mildly, but you know...still. I feel kind of sorry for Flynn. Imagine being hired to write for a comic you've been passionate about and written your own fan material on...and having its previous writer, your predecessor, just demean you. I know Flynn's not the only one that this has happened to, but I'm sure part of it kind of bites.

    On 1/10/2019 at 6:44 PM, horridus said:

    Ah, now HERE is a tale. See, in comics, artwork is generally handled by three people- the Penciler, The Inker, and the Colorist. Each job is pretty self-descriptive, and naturally, multiple duties can be handled by a single artist depending on how much of the workload they want to take. Well, the thing of it is, is that Dawn Best was the penciller for several issues, while Ken Penders was the inker. Ken Penders is an absolutely lousy kind of inker- the kind who basically refuses to actually work with the art style of the penciller and just draws his shit over everything, ruining it in the process. And the same happened here- fabulous pencils by Dawn Best basically being deformed into Penders' own shit, but since nobody really considers how the inker is a separate thing from the penciller, Best wound up getting the heap of the criticism and blame, with everyone thinking that THAT was standard for her art. It's a crying shame, doubly so since Penders uses her to prop himself up constantly. 

    Ah, I thought I read something like that, maybe from Dawn Best herself. Which is too bad, Best is a great artist. I've seen some of her Sonic work that wasn't messed up by Penders, and it's pretty nice. She's drawn some of her own interpretations of Lien-Da and Lara-Su (which I can't find, ergh) and they look so nice. If Dawn Best was hired by Penders to draw for his comic books / graphic novels / whatever the hell they're supposed to be, I think they would look so much nicer. At least it'd look nice, even if everything else was a train wreck. There was also that statement she made about how Penders apparently told her that he was aware his art was only just "test art" or something and that he knew it would have to improve for the final product. I guess Penders...changed his mind? I don't know. I bet nobody knows.

    It's kind of sad, because I think Penders's work, particularly his pencils and his inks, are much better when he's working with others. I found a site that has a few examples of some pencils Penders did for some other comics, and I really do think they look nice. No doubt in part due to the efforts of the inkers and letters, but they still look pretty nice. It makes it all the more ironic that Penders seems to not be much of a team player. Here's a site with some non-Sonic examples, and here's one of what I'm talking about:


    FLARE ISSUE #15 BRITANNIA PAGE 1 *** illustrated by Ken Penders and inked by Jack Snider.  Comic Art

    (Also, I'm sorry if there's a lot of me saying "this thing happened, but I can't find the source" in this post. I swear I just suck at finding the original post. If I'm wrong on anything, please correct me about it.)

  11. This is a tiny little tidbit that probably matters to no one but me, but as a kid I always loved how Shadow sort of "fluffs" his spines in his idle animation in Heroes and ShtH. I always liked the idea of Shadow of being vain and haughty and always grooming himself. I like the idea of Shadow being kind of over the top. I don't know, I think he's taken too seriously sometimes and it makes him a bit boring to me.

  12. So, I try to stay out of character discussions since my opinions on a lot of the characters are almost purely subjective, and I feel that I wouldn't be able to really contribute anything substantial to the conversation. I do want to kind of chime in here and put in my two cents.

    I don't really want anyone to get "axed", just sort of written better. I know this is a really cop-out answer, I just don't know how to describe it. Most of the characters have an aspect I like and I'd rather they improve and feel more substantial as a character and to the narrative instead of getting rid of them completely. Even the characters that I don't like, I can see them being rewritten or retooled so that they are more appealing (maybe not necessarily to me but to others). I don't know...maybe someone else knows what I'm trying to say and can say it better than me? I'm awful at picking the right words to describe what I'm feeling.

    But my opinions on which characters I like and which I don't are kind of all over the place so maybe I shouldn't say anything, haha.

  13. I don't really feel any despair towards Sonic. Probably because I didn't think Forces was bad, just meh. It's not like Sonic is in a place where he's utterly irredeemable or barely active. I definitely still think there's a chance for the series to improve in the near-future and put out a great game instead of one that's just so-so. I can understand why people are burnt out, though. People are passionate about things they care a lot about, and a lot of us here care about the franchise a lot. I can't speak for anyone, but for myself, Sonic was a big part of my childhood and the games of his that I still like still give me happiness to this day. To see something that was once so great and popular is probably really disheartening to a lot. I think it's good to see how a lot of fans are still very passionate about the series in a way.

    I also think the movie, which I have massive reservations about, still might have a small chance of just being some weird thing that happens and then is sort of viewed more as a curious misstep instead of being a giant disaster that drives an axe into Sonic's head. Kind of like Mario's infamous movie.

    I still generally positive about the series and I still have hope and love for it, but I can absolutely understand why a lot of fans are pessimistic.

  14. On 1/6/2019 at 4:49 PM, horridus said:

    Within Image comics at least, it really WAS 99% X-Men ripoffs for a very long time. See, Image Comics was founded by artists who got their start in Marvel Comics, several of them in particular gaining superstar status for their work on X-men, among them the ever-infamous Rob Liefeld. Naturally, this meant that when they went off to found their own company and do their own books, people couldn't help but notice that there was something a kinda familiar about the content of their work...


    Ahaha, this is such a perfect illustration.

    It's very illuminating to read about the industry at this time when Penders was active though, it really adds a lot of insight into the mindset he had behind The Lost Ones. I'm no super knowledgeable about this time, and what I know is just things I've read online and picked up from comics and artists from that time. The information about Image Comics was especially interesting, I didn't know any of that. Thank you!

    You know what this kind of made me think of? I was doing a bit of digging around the Republic...of which there is almost no information of that isn't from Penders himself (which again, I think just goes to show just how unknown it is among the public). The Republic really has a lot of the same flaws as The Lost Ones...namely in that it's such a generic concept that doesn't really have anything to it that makes it stand out or appeal to potential viewers. Cliché concepts are inherently bad, but I still feel there's something that needs to be done to make it appealing somehow, whether it be in the characters of unique execution or anything like that. Almost everything in The Republic has been done the same way but much better. It reminds me a lot of how after The Hunger Games became a huge success, it was like dystopian YA novels starting flooding the market to capitalize. Penders does the same thing...but he does it years later and is unable to attract any kind of audience.

    On 1/6/2019 at 4:49 PM, horridus said:

    You wanna know how they got an audience? Its simple- the audience was built in. A lot of the kids who read that book were in it purely because it had Knuckles and was a part of Sonic, and Knuckles was super popular at the time thanks to Sonic 3/Sonic and Knuckles. It was precisely the case for me- I'd love anything that was Sonic related purely on that basis, and I was too young to actually comprehend things like quality and good storytelling and the like. It had Knuckles in it. Who cared about anything else? That was the raw strength of the Sonic Brand at the time. Sonic was huge, really, REALLY huge, able to spawn an expansive multimedia empire that was unlike anything in Video Games. Helping in particular is that, at the time the Knuckles book was being published? The Archie Books were pretty much the only game in town. There were no major new games being released, and SatAM had ended, meaning that Archie was there to quench the thirst of Sonic fans looking for stuff. Penders himself was once able to note this, but has since insisted that the successes of the books at the time was largely due to him. The fact that Knuckles was cancelled after 32 issues should in fact tell you a lot about how wrong it all went, given that Sonic Universe lasted nearly a hundred issues before Archie lost the license, despite the Sonic brand not being nearly as popular as it was during Penders time. 

    Ahaha, that's totally true. I know when I was a kid, I was extremely forgiving of the comic and all of its flaws. I didn't care if I didn't understand something or if something seemed weird. I was happy to see Sonic and all my favorite characters running around doing whatever. It wasn't until I became much older that I starting seeing the issues. Penders should thank his lucky stars that he had a built-in audience who was extremely forgiving. Looking at all the circumstances--Sonic being extremely popular, the comics being the only material, a lot of the audience being young kids who were very forgiving, an editor who was so hands-off that he might has well not have been there at all--I can't believe how easy he had it on the job. It really was just a barrage of different things that led the comic to go as out of control as it did. It's really too bad. Like you said, this job really conditioned him and his expectations for the rest of his professional life.

    You know, it reminds me of a panel that was once on the "A Moment of Archie Sonic" Tumblr. It was a scene from the Knuckles book with Enerjak, and I distinctly remember Enerjak saying some sort of word that was like, college level. Penders had to add a little editor's box showing what the word meant. It's such a small thing in the grand scheme of things but it really stuck out to me. Did Penders know his audience? Did he know he was writing a kid's comic about a video game character (not to say kids aren't capable of understanding complex themes and stories, but you know)? What was he trying to accomplish with all this crazy backstory and exposition that cluttered up the comic and made it into such a dramatic mess? I've always secretly suspected that the Sonic/Knuckles comics were some sort of weird outlet for a bunch of grand story ideas that he really wanted to tell and explore, but he knew he would never be able to get it out to a widespread audience. So, he did it through the one way he knew would reach of lot of people. I don't know, some crazy conspiracy theory from me, haha.

    On 1/6/2019 at 4:49 PM, horridus said:

    Indeed. Penders is one of those guys who really, really very badly wants to be seen as some kind of uber progressive crusader, a champion of women and minorities and all that. Now these are all fine things to be, mind you. The problem is though? Penders is not nearly as good at being any of those things as he believes, and earnestly wants to be praised despite his efforts being lackluster or even offensive at the time. There's this underlying layer in his writing and views that is very ugly indeed. This is a guy who claims to be a feminist, yet was absolutely HELLBENT on killing off a major female character and trying to make it stick even after he was told to knock it off (Sally), with one of his MANY excuses being that 'she cramped Sonic's style'. Oh, and then after that, he had Sally AND Julie-Su basically play homemaker in 25YL while their HUSBANDS made all the major decisions and drove the plot. And just recently, he opined how he would do things if he was brought back, and IMMEDIATELY delved into the Love Triangle crap, with Sally yet again reduced purely to being a prize for the sake of asinine drama. 

    Ugh. That's one of my major pet peeves. I mean, I think it's great to try and make a diverse comic. But I honestly think it's one of those situations where he just wants to win brownie points and that's it. He just wants to earn sympathy and praise from people. He's not doing it because he, you know, actually cares about representing ethnic minorities or anything like that. I can't find the tweets and/or the posts, but I can distinctly remember Penders making a huge deal about having an Asian woman being the major lead in his comic and how she was going to be the star in his movie, but then he shows signs of falling back into the typical mystical oriental stereotype that befalls so many Asian characters like this. It feels like he's just superficially waving his comic yelling, "Look at me! I'm being soooo diverse and I deserve praise! Praise me!" As an Asian woman myself, it's goddamn tiring to see. "Vague and mysterious" language? Urk. Really, Penders? It's not good to slap women and characters of different races if you're not going to write them as an actual character instead of a walking stereotype. It's not being inclusive. It's poor writing and frankly, it's a little insulting to me. Like, you expect me to accept this as a good example of diverse writing in a comic?

    It's too bad, because I see Penders is trying. But as usual, if he actually listened to criticism instead of brushing it all off, he could improve and I would be happy and even a little proud of him. But Penders gotta Pend.

    On 1/6/2019 at 4:49 PM, horridus said:

    Oooh yes. Penders desperately, DESPERATELY wants to be viewed as the God King of Sonic comics. The Stan Lee, the Jack Kirby, the Grand Old MAn of Sonic. To such a degree that he gets horribly defensive whenever people bring up the fact that ideas he views as exclusively his may not have originated within the Archie stories written by him- he's gotten into several arguments over the fact that Fleetway covered similar ground, and done everything in his power to downplay or diminish or simply not acknowledge the other comic, with the most recent being him getting into an argument about CONVENTION APPEARANCES of all things. Likewise, no matter what he says, it's painfully clear that he bitterly, bitterly resents Ian Flynn for replacing him and receiving far more praise despite being on the book for a shorter time than Penders had been, even referring to Flynn's popularity as a 'bandwagon'. Even with other writers on the book he can't really let anyone have anything- he's repeatedly tried to claime sole responsibility for the Bunnie/Antoine romance, even though it really got started under Angelo DeCesare, whom Penders has repeatedly downplayed and disrespected on his twitter. And then there was his feud with Bollers, wherein he claimed that Bollers was trying to 'subvert' him when it came to 25YL... 

    His incessant ragging on the Sonic film is a symptom of this, because the thing that really gets him is that its being made at all without him. He couldn't care less if its good or if its bad, the only thing he cares about is that it 'stole' what was 'meant' to be HIS legacy. He still can't accept the fact that within the grander scheme of things, even at the peak of his career, the ARchie Sonic comics and spinoffs were still only a subdivision of the wider franchise. His vision of Sonic is so narrow he can only really consider the comics, and only the comics he wrote at that. 


    This is really puzzling, especially when you consider that so many mainstream comics are one collaborative effort. I mean, not all of them, but surely Penders can see that the comics he was working on were the result of many ideas and many people coming together to make something...together. It's infuriating to see him push down the efforts of all his fellow comic employees. I thought he was all for comic creators or something like that? You'd think he would be singing their praises while condemning the big comic book companies or something like that. It especially makes no sense when he was supporting other comic writers and artists getting copyrights and royalties from Archie (or something like that? I can't find the reference posts anymore so many someone can correct me or job my memories). Penders should be grateful he was a part of something so big instead of trying to hot it and make it all about himself.

    I remember tweets of his greatly overstating the importance of the comics, like saying the games don't have enough material or heart for a movie or things similar to that? Look, I love the comics, but at the end of the day...Sonic is mainly a video game series. That's his main claim to fame and where he gets the largest audience and profit. The comics are a great supplement, but that's about it. Yeah, it might kind of bite at first, but Penders was still a part of something that had an effect on the game industry and comic industry and make its mark, especially with it holding the record for the longest running comic series about a video game character. I really wish Penders would be a bit more humble and thankful for the part he played (even if it wasn't necessarily good), instead of turning everything around and making it about himself.

    On 1/7/2019 at 6:40 AM, Kellodrawsalot said:

    Very very true, Penders is convinced that his writing brought Sonic's populairty to the western market despite the fact back in the early internet days of small Sonic fan sites in the 2000's most fans mocked the Archie-Spinn of.

    Penders has always been a bad teamplayer, regardless of what the pro-Penders/Anti Flynn group is convinced of at least Flynn didn't get into drama or pity arguments with other writers. (lets not forget Penders said he would ignore whatever other writer wrote when it came to his characters) Penders didn't even get along with Ben Hurts. 

    I am also tired of Penders constant feminist-position  horridus already said everything On the subject, but a year ago Penders stated on Twitter that he brought ONE female artist (Dawn Best) to the Sonic book as some sort of female-feminist credit, and then got pretty ticked off when someone mentioned that during Flynn and Tracey's run several more female artist were hired for the book. Then he mentioned that unlike Sega if he was in charge of Sonic he would bring back strong female characters like Sally. (ignoring Blaze and other female characters) when someone pointed out to him that he was planning to kill of Sally he again tried to justify it with her not being a cool gf for Sonic and that her mini-series sold pretty poorly. (YES he blamed the character for the mini series poor sales, it does not comprehend to him that he could have just done a bad job on it.)

    It's really awful too, considering how teamwork and team efforts are a huge part of most comic books. Everyone works to contribute something to make the whole product good (well, that's the intent but it doesn't always go that way...). Penders shitting on everyone on the team just shows how little he cares about collaborative efforts. It's probably sort of a good thing that Penders is working on The Lara-Su Chronicles alone. Imagine working with someone only to have them turn around and belittle your hard work and demean you, despite all the work you both put in to make something. 

    Also, regarding Dawn Best, I swear there was this one post by her where she said that she only did the base pencils while Penders sort of went over and "fixed" (used loosely) everything? Like, she would basically do the groundwork and then he'd go in and modify it? I don't want to say too much about this since I might be wrong.

  15. On 1/5/2019 at 9:17 PM, Diogenes said:

    I'm no expert myself, but there's been a lot of theorizing (and I think some actual statements from people involved) that there was a lot of burnout in Sonic Team back when it was more stable. I doubt either end of things is a perfect solution.


    On 1/5/2019 at 9:50 PM, Wraith said:

    I mean, most franchises are built with a lot of the same people iterating on them for years at a time because you can't really learn anything if you have to start from point one every game. Of course people come and go and hands change all the time but even in that case the "wheel" is often handed to trusted individuals who'd been working on the franchise in a smaller role for years regardless. 

    A 'Sonic Team' will function as long as they are not overworked and understaffed. You just can't treat them like mules who have to churn out drastically different games year after year for a variety of different systems or of course key figures will burn out and quit at inconvenient times ala Naka. The ideal is that they prepare successors so that they can bow out gracefully. Miyamoto has not worked directly on Mario for some time now for instance. Koizumi has been conditioned to smoothly take over the lead position.

    As with most things regarding Sonic, it just comes down to not treating your talented team of artists and devs like shit. 

    Thank you two for your responses. I always suspected that there was some sort of burn-out or something like that back when Sonic Team was more of a thing, but I never really went deeper into researching it. I remember reading some bits and pieces from Sonic '06's development being rushed as hell, which eventually led to Yuji Naka leaving in the middle of it all. That's really the only thing that I know for sure. I don't know of any other tidbits from development of any other Sonic games. If anyone knows any good articles about this topic, please point me to them!

    Maybe the Team was just burned out and wanted to move on, but couldn't since Sonic is such a big Sega IP? And eventually they all just quit instead of sticking around? Or maybe it was due to monetary reasons? I honestly don't really know how the shift from Sonic Team to rotating Sega employees happened or why. I don't have any other reference to any other video game development teams (with the exception of the Miyamoto and Koizuma thing that I just learned) so I wouldn't really know. Maybe another Sonic Team will be implemented in the future at one point. I'm just wildly speculating at this point. I appreciate the information!

  16. 7 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

    Also, an actual fucking team of people might be a good thing to have too.

    You know, that's actually a question I've kind of bounced around in my head before. I don't think I know enough about game development and what goes into it for me to have a good enough answer for it, only just speculation and personal thoughts...so, I want to ask it to everyone else in the thread.

    I know that the "Sonic Team" kind of set-up that we're so used to being familiar with is no longer a thing. Now, most of them have split up or gone off to other studios, and now it's just Sega employees sort of being rotated and moved around based on where they're needed most. Do you guys think that the Sonic franchise would benefit from having a Sonic Team again? Like, a group of Sega employees who focus mainly on Sonic games without being moved or splitting their focus on other things?

    Like I said, I don't know enough about game development to know the pros and cons of this (or if this is a super common format nowadays or not?), so I don't have a good answer to this. I would love to see what other people think.

  17. 16 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

    And that show came out when?

    1997 to 2002 in its original run. I haven't watched much of the show, but I found that clip after someone had used that Daria quote as a reference and thought it was pretty good. Truly great shows with great material are timeless, though.

    18 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

    The torture was exclusive to the English localization. Which is a little bit of a shame, since that's apparently right up Zavok's alley anyway.

    Yeah, that's what I heard. It's definitely an...interesting word choice. I'm not sure what that exact word, especially with the connotations it carries. I don't know what the original Japanese sentence was, but I feel "imprisoning" or something like that would make more sense in that context, especially when you consider that Sonic seems to be fine and isn't acting like someone who had been put through a particularly rough time.

    21 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

    Eh, I always believed they were biting off way more than they could reasonably chew the moment the whole "Win the War to take back Our World" aspect started gaining traction.

    Maybe. I personally think it's an idea with a lot of material to work with. There were certain parts I liked. The overall execution wasn't very good, but I still liked some of the ideas that were presented. I definitely think that at its base, it's not a bad idea. I like the idea of the cast having to band together in order to defeat a very powerful Eggman. 

    42 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

    Eh, I was pretty fine and/or happy with most of them, with the exception of Cream.

    I guess it's just a matter of personal preference. I admit there's some discussions on here that I don't like to get involved with simply because my opinions on some things are almost completely subjective. 

    43 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

    There have been people who seem to not only disapprove of their work with Sonic on sight, but are also the types to hold odd priorities/grudges anyway.

    I've been wondering what the hell is happening with SEGA on that lately.

    Lost World was the only game they came up with the story for(with the Deadly Six and possibly the Lost Hex being SonicTeam's contribution), but afterwards Forces notably had them kicked down to just helping with the localization of what the 06 guy already had approved.

    Colors, on the otherhand, is a middleground where they had input with the various jokes and banter, but everything thing else was what was carried over from many preexisting scripts, which is likely why it is the most complete of their stories.

    Eh, I guess it just depends. I think for a lot, it's just based on their previous work. They didn't like what Pontac and Graff came up with before or their track record, so naturally they don't have much faith in their future material. I think that's fair. I think saying something like "Pontac and Graff are absolutely incapable of making anything even remotely good and they never will anything good" is probably prejudiced.

    I'm personally not a big fan of the banter and jokes they tend to write. I find it a bit too over-the-top and too try-hard (if that's the right word I'm looking for).

  18. On 1/2/2019 at 2:36 AM, Blue Blood said:

    @TideKai I agree with you wholeheartedly about use of the word "edgy" and related derivatives. Edgy should only refer to things that are made to look dark and serious whilst maintaining a self-percieved image of cool to appeal to a demographic that wants to appear more mature than they are. As far as I'm concerned, only the series has only approached edginess on two occasions; the entirety of Shadow's game and the presence of Infinite in Forces. Even something like '06 is just a failed attempt at being epic as opposed to being even remotely edgy.

    I think you hit the nail right on the head. I feel edgy is one of those sort of "reflex words" that people see a certain aspect that they associate very strongly with something being edgy, and so they automatically slap that label on without really understanding why or looking into it beyond that. Eventually, anything that's even remotely in the ballpark of what is perceived to be edgy gets slapped with it as well. It's just a really shallow term, in my opinion.

    I also think Daria's definition of edgy is a pretty good one, too.

    On 1/2/2019 at 8:08 AM, -dan- said:

    Funny you should say that. With moments in the story of Adventure 1, 2 and Unleashed, if you examine specific events, some horrible stuff must've happened but is never openly mentioned. Recall the Last story in Adventure 1, Chaos gets all the Chaos Emeralds and destroys Station Square. You could clearly see people living there lives peacefully as it happened. The likelihood of nobody dying is very slim. Sonic and Co could've reacted quickly to reduce the number of casualties, but it was never mentioned and we had no idea where the crowd was when they were cheering Sonic before the final battle.

    With Adventure 2, when Eggman attacks Prison Island the second time, he arranges to blow up the whole place, Sonic only learned that while trying to escape and no evidence had suggested that G.U.N was aware of the bomb. That suggests once again, the possibility of mass casualties that are never mentioned. Unless the entire island was mechanised, which is actually possible when you consider the weapons that G.U.N use. At most, at least one person was on the island. The pilot of the "Flying Dog" who intercepted Rouge. Eggman's broadcast and the destruction of half the moon, should've caused mass panic which could include riots, looting, normal people going crazy over this very serious situation. They could've shown protestors demanding the president answer his threat if Sonic and Tails met him at the White House instead of a moving limousine. Of course, the mass panic would've gotten even worse when Gerald revealed his true plan, which based on how the scene plays out, was broadcast throughout the entire planet. While the stuff I've mentioned about Adventure 2 is mostly left uncertain, other horrible events seemed to be confirmed. Like Maria getting shot during the raid on the Ark, her sickness and Gerald's attempts to find a cure, and the fact that his entire confession was recorded in front of a firing squad.

    Unleashed is more subtle, but you've gotta wonder what the ramifications of having the entire planet fragmented the way it was, had effected peoples lives. What if you happened to be standing on the wrong spot when the split first happened? Don't forget the large amount of dark monsters now walking around and attacking fox boys.

    That's not to say any of what I suggested is canon. You could consider how these details were glossed over as bad writing, but I personally didn't mind. (Though I would've preferred that they at least kept the moon damaged in future titles.) Instead, they kept the pace going by focusing on the main threat and following Sonic in his attempt to stop it.

    Eh, I'm not a really big fan of the whole "fridge horror" thing. I mean, everything has fridge horror if you look at it a certain way or if you think too long about certain stuff. Mario is filled to the brim with fridge horror (and if you want, you can read them all on TVTropes). I think it's just a mixture of either writers not really thinking through or not putting too much priority on those types of things.

    I think the only one that really counts to me is the Sonic Adventure 2 Battle one, and it's because it's not fridge horror. It's right there and clearly shown (and really did scare me a whole lot when I was a kid). And maaaybe the Sonic Adventure one, only because you can clearly see people going about their daily lives when Chaos floods the city. But I guess a post-credits scene where Sonic and Tails wade through a sea of corpses probably wouldn't be good, haha.

    On 1/2/2019 at 9:01 AM, DabigRG said:

    To be fair to Forces, most of that story did take itself relatively serious enough. What explicit jokes I do remember is more banter between the characters, side comments, or if we're talking about the cutscene before the first boss fight with Infinite, Sonic being Sonic.

    I agree with you. I actually specifically pointed out Forces being an improvement in my post. I think the "torture" part is weird...and in all honesty, I think it's more of a weird choice of wording than Forces trying to be "edgy" or anything like that (seriously, replacing "torturing" with something like "imprisoning" or "mocking" seems to make a bit more sense and not make the scene come off as jarring as it does). I honestly sort of like the story of Forces, or at the very least where it tried to go with it. It was a concept I was very on board with. I didn't like the execution.

    On 1/2/2019 at 9:01 AM, DabigRG said:

    So I think it's more a case of people being prejudiced against the writing and voices of the last couple of games as well as wanting more out of the story in general.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but for me personally it's definitely the latter part and not the former. I really enjoy the current voice cast. Some of them are even my favorite for the characters out of all the voice acting casts. But even so, the voices of the Sonic cast don't really effect how I see the story as long as they're not really awful performances. I really disliked the 4kids cast of voice actors (no offense to any of them, it's just personal preference) but it never really got in the way of how I played the game or saw the story, and I 

    I'm also not exactly sure what you mean by "prejudiced against the writing." Do you mean against the current writers of the games, Pontac and Graff? My personal opinion of them isn't really based in prejudice. I've liked some of their ideas and I've disliked some of their ideas, but overall I'm not a really big fan of their execution of these ideas.

  19. I'm going to be 100% honest when I say this: I'm really starting to hate the word "edgy" when it's being used to describe Sonic games. I hope I don't sound like I'm point fingers at anybody or sounding accusatory, I promise I don't mean to give off that vibe. I probably don't even know what I'm talking about. I just feel it's a word that gets thrown around a lot without a whole lot of meaning being given to it. It's sort of this general term that so many people use without really defining it well. I also feel it's overused, kind of like how a lot of people throw around the word "cringe."

    11 hours ago, Strickerx5 said:

    Honestly, this isn't a question of a "dark" or "light" plot. It's more of wanting them to actually give me something to care about. Whether it's coming from the doom of some monster threatening to destroy the planet or a simple trip to the grocery, you have to have a narrative that makes someone care about the circumstances. The 2000s games mostly succeed in this because there was a clear drive to tell those stories. The production values were there and things rarely felt gimped due to lack of trying. None of this stand in a box and talk crap that these current games love to fall back on. It's only really a coincidence the 2000s games were more dark in tone for the most part.

    Tone rarely matters. The actual narrative, how the characters are portrayed, written, and animated do. The 2000s games simply put more effort into all of that (and a number of other aspects). A number of those games offered a full package. Simply can't say that any Sonic game after 2009 has done that for me. In that sense, I do wish that era of the series would return.

     I can't emphasize how much I agree with this. Honestly, I'm starting not to like the term "dark" as well. I mean, I think we can all agree that Shadow the Hedgehog running around with guns shooting everything and yelling curses maybe crossed a few boundaries. But other than that, what is "dark" exactly in the Sonic series? I absolutely agree with "dark" or "light" aren't the main issues with Sonic plots nowadays. I'm not saying that it's okay for Sonic to go around and suddenly start emphasizing murder and having plots that have things like, I don't know, realistic genocide or gritty guerrilla warfare like Apocalypse Now. It's just all about the passion and drive the story and characters makes you feel. It's one of the reasons why I liked the story and characters in the 2000s games. Yeah, they weren't perfectly and were heavily flawed in a lot of places, but I at least felt drive and passion from the stories and characters, like the things they were striving for mattered (if that makes sense?). That's why I don't like how these arguments always delve into the same "kiddy / edgy / dark / light" back and forth. To me, those words just feel empty. They're just thrown out because they're so generalized. They don't really go into the actual problems and flaws that should be discussed. It's like the moment a certain aspect is shown, the game is immediately slapped with some kind of superficial label without any more digging into how these aspects work in relation to the story and characters and why they feel that way.

    17 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

    It's been a common problem that I've seen complained about with other long running series is that eventually the stories start being told from the meta instead of written using internal logic. Sonic no longer reacts to the events of the narrative from the traits that inform his character but by his current reputation out of universe. The stories feel presented so tongue in cheek that they lack any gravitas or sincerity. As much as I prefer Sonic as an Action Adventure series versus being an Action Comedy series, even Mania Adventures which more toed the line between was able to stay sincere and earnest with the story it aimed to tell by using in universe elements to carry the story and characters rather than letting the meta and memes dictate the narrative. The earnest and genuine affect that left most people praising the show with many saying that is what Sonic should be and what SEGA should push for. It wasn't a matter of tone or story content, but how it was executed and whether or not it stayed truthful to the characters from an in universe perspective rather than the characters' out of universe and meta reputations.

    Also absolutely agree with this. I wondered if it was just me who was feeling this way, haha. The stories definitely feel more meta and tongue-in-cheek lately. I mean, I know that's not always a bad thing, and I know that Sonic's personality is that he's a wise-cracker and a funny guy...but I hate the feeling of everything being a joke. It's like nothing is being taken seriously. If nothing is being taken seriously, why should anyone care? Why should I care about Eggman taking over the world or Eggman about to crush Sonic into smithereens when everything is just passed off as some kind of joke and something that should constantly be laughed at?

    It doesn't matter (in my opinion, anyways) if something may seem cartoonish and childish as long as the characters feel sincere and earnest (if you don't mind me stealing some of your word choice @Sonic Fan J, haha). And I'm not even talking about it being "dark" or "edgy" or even "serious". In Mario Odyssey, the plot is some giant turtle trying to marry a human woman who's less than half his size while some short Italian guy tries to get her back with the help of a talking hat. Yeah, it's pretty cartoony and sounds ridiculous, but it's not like Mario is making some self-aware joke every ten minutes and rolling his eyes about "Oh boy, here we go again" or "Oh gee, it's the almighty King Koopa Bowser, I'm so scared (heavy sarcastic tone)". Even in the end, Mario at least felt earnest in his mission. It felt like he really cared about what he was doing and why. Sonic stories don't really seem to have that anymore. Forces kind of improved on that, I guess...but there's still a lot of room for improvement.


    I'm sorry if none of this makes sense, it's 3am where I'm when I'm typing this and I haven't slept in like 30 hours. 

  20. Eeeh...I guess it depends on your definition of a good year. I think Team Sonic Racing looks pretty good and is shaping up to be a fun game, so that's good. There's also IDW as others have noted, and I really like the comic so far, especially in the art department.

    But at the same time, the movie will be coming out too. I guess it depends on how much the movie overshadows everything else. Maybe the movie will barely make a splash and be it's own little thing, seen as separate from the series and thus won't do too much damage to the other Sonic branches of media. That's just me being optimistic about it, though. Or maybe it will be funnier than expected or have at least one redeeming quality? But that's also me being optimistic.

    I honestly don't know. If it wasn't for the film coming out, I would say it wouldn't be a bad year for Sonic. But I still have no idea how the movie is going to go down and affect everything. If I had to be truthful, I'd say I'm a little fearful of what's in store.

  21. I'm afraid I have to agree with the majority here. As sad as it is to face the possibility that the Freedom Fighters have been permanently retired, I think that's the reality we're facing now. Them being put in Freedom Planet just seems to extremely unlikely. I like Freedom Planet being a Sonic inspired game instead of being a direct derivative of it. And just as people before me have said, you would have to change their backstories and redesign them. When it comes to that, what's the point anymore? There would be little to distinguish them from just being new characters. This isn't even considering all the money and legal hurdles that a small indie company would have to go through in order to acquire characters from a large company.

    In my opinion, I think it's best for the Freedom Fighters to live on through the fans. There's a fan continuation going on right now, there might even be more that I'm not aware of. People are still writing stories, drawing art, and discussing these characters. Even if they're dead in SEGA's hands, they're alive and well in other ways. Will it be the same? No, and that will probably take some time getting used to. But I personally am very thankful for all the hard work and dedication going on from people who still want to keep the FF's around. I think it just goes to show the passion and love a lot of people still have for them.

  22. 2 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

    The cool thing about sharing ideas like this is even if it can't change what has already happened it does help us develop our own creative abilities which can always help us later in life. And in the case of Sonic and his missed opportunities, the potential that exists within them to tell and share ideas that for their own amazing stories is part of what I love about the franchise and makes interacting with the fans so rewarding. Sharing your ideas which hit the right notes for me is just an extra special treat, so getting to experience that is something wonderful in my opinion. thank you soo much for sharing as I love what you suggested.

    The franchise may have a lot of missed opportunities but how those missed opportunities stimulate our imaginations is something spectacularly valuable to me. Now if only those missed opportunities weren't so frequently paired with everything being mishandled to some degree.

    That's true! Whether anything happens from my ideas or not, it's always fun to discuss and imagine. And I think it's always nice to be inspired by something. Even if we don't necessarily like a game, it's always nice when it makes us discuss about creative ideas, just like you said. 👍

    It's not a problem, and thank you for being such a sweet person. Happy holidays to you!

  23. 17 hours ago, Sonic Fan J said:

    I actually like your idea @TideKai. It's almost laid out more like Unleashed in a way by being a World Adventure (sorry for the pun 😅) and also makes me think a bit like CD where you actually get to see the effects of your efforts. And as much flak as ME3 gets I think this idea works a lot better than you give your currently medicated self credit for as it would also allow for the other cast members to do more than stand around and even set up side quests with them where they could be used both like in Generations (as glorified Wisps really but that's okay) and Shadow the Hedgehog as in level Amigo missions.

    Yeah, I really like your idea @TideKai if you can't tell and now really feel like they wasted such a great premise with Forces.

    Thank you so much, I really appreciate your kind response! 

    Yeah, I remember when the whole thing about uprising against the Eggman Army was first revealed about Forces, and I honestly thought that there were a ton of cool ways that they could've executed the concept and ME3 came to my mind. Even if ME3 is my least favorite game out of the ME series (especially the ending and how you originally had to go get points online to get the best possible ending since there WEREN'T ENOUGH IN THE BASE GAME AND AS A PLAYER WHO HAD IT ON XBOX YOU HAD TO PAY TO PLAY ONLINE AAARGHH), I still like the game and had a lot of fun with most of it. The whole thing of helping people out and getting resources as a result for a massive army to go into battle during a final fight was something that would've fit perfectly in Forces...instead of what we got.

    I also really like your ideas too. I forgot about that part in CD and I think that would've been a cool feature to bring back. I also really like the thing with the characters. Maybe if could be something like the characters are either captured by Eggman or fighting their own battles in their own different parts of the world, and you have to help them free their area in order to unlock them for the resistance army. I really like your sidequest idea. Like you said, it helps them to feel like they're doing something other than just standing around and talking. And it'd be nice to see them do something. We have all these characters coming together for a giant revolution, why not go with that idea more? And maybe in the final battle, if you rescued them, they could help you somehow. If you don't save them, you can still go on fight and beat the game, but maybe it would be a little harder or take a longer while, or maybe you'd have to fight a few minions that the character would've taken care of instead.

    I can see this idea also working with some other cast members too. Imagine after freeing Soleanna, Elise obviously wouldn't come fight in the battle but maybe she could offer Soleanna's military to come help you. Professor Pickle could maybe offer some research that would assist in the fight. The G.U.N Commander or even the President could offer some more military soldiers.

    I know in the end this is just me talking out of my ass and it won't change anything about Forces, but I don't know...I just think these ideas are fun to think about, haha.

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