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BadBehavior

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  1. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Eurisko in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    I agree.  Capcom do this on a semi- regular basis.
  2. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior got a reaction from Syntax Speedway in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    I know, I was just observing on the quite humerous connection that Group A were calling for Elements X and Y to be removed/added from the games respectively to make them better, and now Group B are calling for Elements X and Y to be added/removed respectively to make the games better. It's like the entire community is undergoing some kind of Groundhog Day
  3. Chuckle
    BadBehavior got a reaction from Syntax Speedway in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    It's interesting how the question as the topic of this thread takes on a slightly different context than it did when it was originally asked. This was before even Colours and Sonic 4 came out. I could just as easily rephrase it as thus:
    Just goes to prove that if in 10 years we see fans nostalgic for Forces, wishing that Classic Sonic, the Avatar and Infinite would come back, then we are truly stuck in a neverending cycle.
  4. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Dr. Detective Mike in What if Sega stops making Sonic the Hedgehog Games?   
    When George SEGA Lucas stops making games they'll sell it to Disney and they'll immediately get to work on their next trilogy of games, held up by different directors that immediately discard the thing that the last game set-up and everyone will hate it again, but for a different reason this time. 
  5. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Scritch the Cat in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    Adventure fans are probably getting more vocal now because the Classic fans have gotten Sonic Mania, and there isn’t a counterpart game for the Adventure series yet.  Also SM even existing and being a hit gives lie to the idea that Sonic needs to have nobody but Sonic playable In order to be truly Sonic, and that lie, above all else, is what destroyed the Adventure era.  Add in that SM was made by former hackers and fangame developers, and you’ve got what feels like a vindication of the belief that the fans now know more about what Sonic should be than SEGA.  Meanwhile, 3D Sonic fan gaming is coming along; it clearly still has some growing to do, but the more fan projects people play that take heavy inspiration from the Adventure series, the more people will feel “These really aren’t that hard to make, so why doesn’t SEGA?”
     
    Bottom line, I don’t think fans of the Adventure era are really languishing from the lack of another game like it.  They might never come around to accepting the sort of Sonic games that have replaced it, but I’m assuming most have lives outside of Sonic the Hedgehog, so they’ll get over the loss.  However, they also see some times as opportune to remind the world that they still exist and still want a third (good) Adventure game.
    Among the current reasons the fans might be vocal are:
    1) SM making them feel nostalgia is good for the brand and worth pursuing.
    2) SF convincing them that boost won’t ever surpass what it was in SG and likely will get worse instead; also that Classic Sonic is no longer a novelty.
    3) TSR calling back to character relationships not seen since the Adventure era.
    4) Mobile games calling back to that era.
    5) Sonic’s official YouTube and other social media reconciling with that era.
    6) The increased prominence of Jun Senoue after a multi-game absence.
  6. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to knuckles20 in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    It's not the only reason, there's also my general non-interest with the Classic games despite earlier attempts to play them. If I had to pick a favorite of that era it's easily Sonic the Fighters. I don't hate those games it's just not my cup of tea.
    I just don't want to feed into the "Sonic haven't had a good game since 1994" mentality because I firmly disagree with that notion.
    That's never going to happen with me. Because for years I dealt with insufferable morons telling me I'm not a "true Sonic fan" because I prefer games like Adventure 2 and Heroes over Colors and Generations and I shouldn't need to explain to you why that is so aggravating to deal with. Even while I expressed my intense disappointment in Forces from reveal to release not once did I persuade people having optimism for buying the game because I'd be a hypocrite for doing so. If people want to do speed runs in Lost World or wreck shit with their OC in Forces I'm not going to stop them. 
    And about the dev team being unable to competently analyze fan feedback or criticism, what's the alternative; stay quiet and waste money on games that aren't going to be fun for me? That hasn't worked for me because that silence tells them I'm completely fine with the state of the games when that's far from the case. So I see no reason why I shouldn't continue to advocate why I haven't enjoyed a Sonic game since 2008 and what I want from the main titles.
  7. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Wraith in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    Nep hit the nail on the head 10 years ago when she said it doesn't matter. None of the problems with the Sonic brand have anything to do with what the fans requested and anyone who thinks otherwise just wants the discussion that takes place here and in other circles to matter more than it actually does. 

    The problem lies more with Sonic's position as a financial pillar for the company. They've been enforcing strict deadlines that risked compromising the quality of the end product since the third game in the series. When they got great results in spite of these decisions, they pushed more and more for more games to cover more platforms and release windows until straw broke the camel's back. No matter what you try and do or how talented you are your work is bound to suffer under poor conditions, which is why I don't feel like writing off Sonic Team as strictly incompetent. Even now, stories about Forces are coming out and indicating that the infamous four year long dev cycle might have just been a year-long mad dash to the holiday 2017 window instead. Not surprising given the franchise's history but disappointing after Sega successfully kept their promise about increased quality control elsewhere. Maybe Sonic Team has made some deep creative mistakes over the years, but the only proper way to fix that is to take the time to fix them. Saying "Fuck it, push it out anyway" reads as a massive disrespect to the consumer's time, money and intelligence. 
    Even a Sonic game that starts life as an earnest response to feedback is going to fall short under these circumstances. A lot of the flip-flopping you see within the fanbase on what direction to go is because you would see them try something out of a wishlist and come up short due to obvious time/budgetary constraints.  We've had Sonic only. We've had an adherence to one gameplay style. We've had them kick the boost to the curb entirely and focus on slower, more technical movement. We've had lighter stories long enough to burn out and ask for something heavier again. Even the Classic/Modern split is something I've seen one person field before back when the tension in the fandom was higher, and Sega has done such a hack job at setting it up that not even any of the obvious benefits manifested. At some point you just have to wonder what's next on the chopping block. Is Sonic Adventure 3 finally going to come along and humiliate anyone who ever dreamed of it to begin with?

    This approach to feedback is why you see Sonic fans eating eachother so often. Not only do they have "evidence" of certain ideas not ever being able to work, they think they can puppeteer the series into going in the right direction if they just change enough minds or push enough of the dissenters away. You might be able to change the trajectory of how the series presents itself and certain ideas, but the underlying problems are always going to be there unless something changes with how these games are made. 

    And there's really no feedback you can give them that will stop this 'who gives a shit, just get it out' approach because at the end of the day it works well enough for them even if it doesn't work at all for us. Sonic as an IP is a success as far as creating a solid revenue stream for the company even if many of the products are artistically unfulfilling. When the returns started getting dicey, they just put less money into the games and still turned a profit. Sonic isn't great. It's arguably not even good, but it works. Mania, Forces and the film are all successes. It's arguable if Boom was but at the very least I can't keep jokes from it off my feed. 
    Sonic Mania, the Comics and the new shorts prove that things can still work out when the right people are given the right circumstances, but I'm tired of every 'big' Sonic product either completely bypassing fans of the series for a scattershot casual audience so they can rake paper in the short term like Boom or the Movie, or being a shallow imitation of why I fell in love with this series to begin with like Forces. I would rather not see the next game for 5 years than them release something undercooked again, but it's pretty clear that how I feel about it doesn't really matter. They're gonna do what they do.
  8. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Scritch the Cat in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    I think the following things have to be acknowledged.  For better or for worse:
    1) SEGA will always be listening to someone about what to do with this series, because it's been conceived and marketed around the basic notion of being "cool", and that's not going to change.  That said, what's considered cool does sometimes change, which is why we get the occasional embarrassing thing like Shadow the Hedgehog.  However, I can't sign on the notion that Shadow's game is evidence that SEGA shouldn't listen to gamers' wishes (not even those of Sonic fans in particular), because the backlash it got is also probably responsible for them not continuing with that.  The game was mocked by Sonic fans and detractors alike.  Problems do arise, of course, when the popular critical consensus becomes that Sonic was never good.  But that's a sign that it's time to listen to the few people who disagree, because the only other option would seem to be, discontinue Sonic.
    2) Sonic games will always be padded with peripheral gimmicks of some sort or other.  I'm obviously not in the "Sonic was never good" camp--I wouldn't be here if I was--but I am in the "Sonic has never been any stranger to slower additional gameplay styles that pad the game out" camp.  The first game had two zones, arguably three, made to render Sonic's running speed irrelevant, and the special stages.  The second and third games had a greater amount of their zones made to capitalize on speed, but even tougher special stages and the second had bad restrictions placed on getting into them.  Big the Cat was the most infamous way they chose to pad the series, but he was not the first, nor last.  There will be no last; I feel confident in saying, and that goes especially in boost games.  The more easily accessible Sonic's speed is, the more SEGA will slow him down to do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want you to. I await them to prove me wrong, but after thirty years, why expect it?  The best thing I can reasonably expect is padding it out in ways I don't hate.  Forcing me to play as other characters to 100% the game would be acceptable to me; provided they weren't all total clones of other characters and none were as dull as Big in SA.
  9. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Roger_van_der_weide in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    Classic Sonic fans complaining the series isn't "classic" enough just got Sonic 4 episode 1, AND episode 2, AND half of Generations AND 2d sections in Colors AND Lost world pushing Classic imagary all over the place AND a third of Forces, which goes all of the fuck with the "Classic" style imitation.They got what they fucking wanted and they hated it. Yet you still see these chuckleheads on twitter


    And as a result they  got rewarded with Sonic Mania and now they're happy.


    Oh.


    Forces was shallow as a kiddypool and got all the details wrong, just like Sonic 4 did in it's pathetic attempt to emulate Classic Sonic.
    Doing a half assed job attempting to please fans isn't going to make these "chuckleheads" go away, no.
    So Classic fans get to whine and bitch despite 7 years of pandering, yet Adventure fans need to shut up after one attempt huh? Nice.

    Besides, I HATE the fact that Adventure fans desire for a richer story keeps getting translated into "Make it super dark and edgy with tons of death and scary imagary. Adventure 1 and 2 are light hearted for the most part, the darker elements don't come into play until the finale when it's earned. We want the story to be  rich and meaningful, which COULD involve darker elements for extra punch, but that isn't the main point. Shadow fans don't like modern Shadow, despite him being much the angry aggresive dark miserable edgey boy they supposedly like. Almost as if there's more going on with his character then just saying naughty words.
    Sonic Forces' dumbass moment with Sonic getting tortured (Sorry, I mean, a character randomly saying torture happened with no followup on that) is getting the Adventure games wrong on 2 acounts, both being darker then they ever were AND then not even having the balls to carry it trough and at least have the torture have a freaking point or any impact on the story to begin with. Like most of Sonic Lost World's "Edgey" dialogue, it feels like cheap overcompensation to mask the fact how empty and meaningless the real story is.

    And we can have endless debates how the story of the Adventure games wasn't "That deep" or "that good".
    You know what, I agree. They could have bee much better.
    So the solution is to improve, not to be satisfied with worse.

    That said, I agree complaining at Sega is pointless, because they're terrible at understanding feedback. So I agree Adventure fans should probably stop demanding for Adventure 3, it's just going to lead to more superficial moronic disasters.
    "Sonic adventure 3, from the makers who brought you Sonic Colors" is like hearing "Lord of the Rings, the Adam Sandler version".
    Never the less, I don't tolerate Classic or Modern fans calling us off either.
    Classic fans have been trough the exact damn journey, and Modern fans will probably go trough the same journey in the future after Sonic dropped down into yet another idiotic direction. Down the drain with all of us until we finally pull ourselves away from this emotional rollercoaster.
    Oh, there's plenty of "Sonic should be more like Mario/ Nintendo should buy Sonic" noise within the fanbase.

    OF COURSE what people MEAN is "Sonic should have the same level of focus and quality control as Mario" rather then "Sonic team needs to create cheap rip offs of Mario's level design, bosses and Galaxy gameplay", but chalk that up to Sonic Team doing a terrible job understanding feedback, rather then them not listening to feedback at all.
    At this point I tend to look at Sonic Team as if they're the The Monkey's Paw, or those other fairytales about wish fulfilling genies that always fulfill your wish in a way where it backfires on you. They WILL grant your wish. Just in a way where you wished they didn't.
  10. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to FlameStream in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    I suspect that the next game will determine how some of current fans will approach this series (game-wise). No matter what happens some people will not be pleased.
    I suppose the problem is that as soon as it's clear that the direction the games are going is not what a person wants, then the potential of sales and and future interest would go down drastically. You can already see it when some groups are saying "if Sonic is just mania from now on", or "if no more Mania from now on I quit" kind of posts around.
    Sonic is too big for what the fans want out of it for games. So it's very scary to think this way as an investor; you always want to keep the leash and therefore make sure that there may some thing for everyone, if not now then in the future.
    At least, that's what I would have said years ago. With Sonic not being the hottest thing for Sega anymore, I imagine that we may get a more simple budget focused experience out of it, not to dissimilar to what we've gotten. You just have to hope it's going to be something you like.
    That said, Sonic is a multimedia franchise tofay. So venues other than games can hold your interest.
  11. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Scritch the Cat in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    I was mostly thinking of the Wisps when I wrote the bit about Mario.  I don't know of any Sonic fans who asked for Mario-like power-ups.  That doesn't mean none ever existed, but they sure didn't make noise like the more infamous, stereotypical complaints, such as:
    *Big the Cat is the antithesis of what Sonic should be.
    *Sonic never really worked in 3D.
    *The Sonic and Shadow stages are the best/only good parts of the Adventure games.
    *Sonic's friends are annoying.
    *Shadow's game is cringey.
    *Elise kissing Sonic is disgusting, and that they tried making this an emotional love story is absurd.
    So I don't think SEGA added them in Sonic Forces in order grant any fans' wishes.  Nor do I think they added a greater platforming focus and enemies that look like Bowser and his children in Sonic Lost World due to any fans' wishes.  Rather, I think they did it because those games were originally Nintendo exclusives and they wanted to appeal to Nintendo's fans, which maybe in SEGA's mind means Mario, Mario, Mario.
    That these elements have stuck around so much is...maybe surprising, maybe not.  I rest my case that SEGA's approach to Modern Sonic is largely about trying to find things to plug all of the holes they made when they tore almost everything out.
    Come to that, for all this talk of how SEGA doesn't succeed when they try to grant people what they are requesting, mostly because they seem unable to make it, and the resulting arguments that the series is worse as a result, you know why I remain just fine at continuing to request what I want out of the series even if that's true?  Because to put it bluntly, I don't want to see this series get better if getting better means becoming something mutually exclusive to what it had been.
    And this isn't just about what I love vs what other people do.  It's about the totally sensible belief that when a series gained a huge fanbase doing a certain thing in the past, it shouldn't betray those fans.
  12. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Scritch the Cat in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    The reality is that those are big ifs until proven otherwise, and I guarantee you SEGA won't be dumb enough to say they won't ever make a certain type of Sonic game again.  Whatever they announce soon might let some people down, but these days it's understandable given that the pandemic slowed them down and reduced their capacity to make things.  Announcing anything at all would be rather refreshing right now; even if it isn't a bold new direction or a return to the good old days.  But this series can always break trends.  I didn't expect the boost would ever leave, but it did momentarily for SLW, and then they also were kind enough to keep it out of SM.
    Incidentally, how many years are you talking?  I ask because up until the pandemic hit, I didn't see much justification for Sonic games not to be diversified more along the lines of Mario games.  There are pretty consistently:
    *New 3D Mario platformers.
    *New 2D Mario platformers.
    *New Paper Mario RPGs.
    *New Mario and Luigi RPGs.
    *New Mario Sports games.
    With Sonic having a more definitive personality than Mario, his franchise can't be quite as flexible with how he plays, but there's more than enough wiggle room for things like Sonic Mania to exist without preventing, say, new Adventure games to exist, too.  I think SEGA does, in fact, have the money to do this; they just have to choose to invest it--and I also believe there's a big enough fandom for the Adventure series to make a new Adventure game profitable.  I can't speak for it being good, but I do think it would make back its budget.
  13. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Scritch the Cat in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    It actually kind of surprises me that it is, given that on the gaming front Sonic has been iffy at best for well over a decade.  Though I stand by my earlier post that SEGA will try to keep Sonic's reputation from getting negative, just so he can be a mascot that doesn't bring them shame, some of the things on the periphery seem like they're trying to capitalize on a great reputation that no longer exists.
  14. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Scritch the Cat in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    You really have to wonder, though, how SEGA manages to botch things that people were certain they had down and expected to be constants without even having to ask them to keep them.  Many feel the boost mechanic had been perfected in Sonic Generations, and Classic Sonic had been passably recreated in that game (though not flawlessly).  It's one thing to not nail a brand new parkour mechanic that whole new game is based on, it's one thing if the new character creation system isn't great, but how did they go downhill, mechanically, from what they proved they could do a decade ago?
  15. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to knuckles20 in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    Why is this have to be a choice? Why can't I get games that have quality with stuff I've been missing from the  games for nearly 14 years now. There's no reason I can't get quality out of Sonic games that have multiple playable characters, actual 3D gameplay (and not the fake 3D we've been getting since 2010) and more engaging plots. Also bold to assume the "darker" plot is the only thing Adventure fans didn't like about Forces.
  16. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to knuckles20 in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    The "playable characters" were Sonic A, Sonic B, and a blank slate with no defining personality that isn't that much different than the silent retro Sonic. And before you bring up the Shadow DLC why the hell should I be satisfied with last minute table scraps that only adds 15 minutes to the game as opposed to him being part of the main game from the start. So that's a complete miss for me. 
    And I found nothing engaging about the plot when they continue to make everyone who isn't Sonic appear to be helpless yes men. That pissed me off in Generations and Lost World and I knew they were going to pull that crap again the moment I saw Classic Sonic in that 1st trailer.
  17. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to knuckles20 in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    Oh I did. I just explained why I don't care about Forces' half-hearted attempts to meet my criteria of what I want from the games.
    Also,
    I've been playing Sonic Team's Russian Roulette for years and the only things I can say I won out on is the comics and a mobile game that's a spinoff of a console title that claims to be a love letter to early 2000s games. Everything else that's been released in the 2010s has been either trying so hard to pander to people who want Sonic to remain stagnant in the genesis days (Every main title since Colors) or got screwed over because Sega make last minute demands in order to fulfill other priorities (look up Sonic Synergy). So it's all the more reason why I should be vocal on what I want from the games.
  18. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Snowragnarok in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    And even the attempt to do the opposite was awful, making the prospects much worse for this to happen...
     
    Remember Sonic 4? Maybe Forces is like that...
  19. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Shadow Chaos Control in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    This has merit, fans should be listen to sometimes, but let them exert too much influence over the product, and you get the mess that was The Rise of Skywalker. 
  20. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Roger_van_der_weide in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    Who cares who Sega listens to when they always follow feedback in the most self destructive stupid way possible?
    For God's sake, don't listen to me or try to please me, just go do whatever stupid thing you guys think is right.
    No, don't make Sonic Adventure 3 on my behalf. It'll be Classic Sonic in Forces all over again, Superficial Sonic Adventure elements awkwardly jammed into your next psychodelic nightmare game. No thanks.

    I think that's the only way we can end this fan complaint Groundhog day cycle, that enough Sonic fans have seen their demands and wishes executed in the most horrific way possible that everyone just stops having any reaction anymore. Too bad Sonic Mania gave the classic fans hope again, so they're encouraged to start squeecking again.
    Oh well, nothing a good Sonic 4 episode 3 or Forces 2 can beat out of them again.
     
  21. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior got a reaction from Rabbitearsblog in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    I know, I was just observing on the quite humerous connection that Group A were calling for Elements X and Y to be removed/added from the games respectively to make them better, and now Group B are calling for Elements X and Y to be added/removed respectively to make the games better. It's like the entire community is undergoing some kind of Groundhog Day
  22. Fist Bump
    BadBehavior got a reaction from Snowragnarok in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    It's interesting how the question as the topic of this thread takes on a slightly different context than it did when it was originally asked. This was before even Colours and Sonic 4 came out. I could just as easily rephrase it as thus:
    Just goes to prove that if in 10 years we see fans nostalgic for Forces, wishing that Classic Sonic, the Avatar and Infinite would come back, then we are truly stuck in a neverending cycle.
  23. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to Scritch the Cat in Does SEGA Even HAVE to Listen to Us?   
    I’d say maybe not, but 06 sold well and SEGA still listened to criticisms about that.  Granted, that game was broken technically and SEGA was aware of that even before consumers were, but they also subsequently reworked their series based around the strictly conceptual complaints that not only 06, but games leading up to it had.  Making the series more and more 2D, cutting those who weren’t Sonic out of playable roles, and focusing a lot on Classic Sonic were all results of them being influenced by complaints from people who disparaged the Adventure era.
    Have things changed since?  Well, PR has reconciled with at least the first half of the Adventure era, but that may be less a case of SEGA feeling a need to listen to the fans than having the good fortune to be staffed by people who are well-acquainted with the fandom.  That they are, though, might be no accident, because this brand was conceived from the start by taking into consideration what people found cool and then doing it, and that has led to some bad things but it’s led to some good things, too.
    How financially important is that?  Well I don’t know, but I think it’s irrelevant because when it comes to staying afloat financially, SEGA really doesn’t need to keep making Sonic games AT ALL.  His importance is as their mascot, and they likely care enough to try to keep Sonic’s reputation from getting negative again.  But they may not care about it far beyond that minimum.  Forces wasn’t a big hit with anyone, and neither was TSR, but they didn’t return Sonic to being a huge laughing stock, so whatever.
  24. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior got a reaction from Snowragnarok in Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!   
    Yeah Lost World makes Crash: Wrath of Cortex look consistent.
    Forces was only a marginal improvement, you had the 3 playstyles (3 1/2 if you count the tag team stages) and the only Lost Worldism I can think of for Forces is the water slide sections. Even in the absolute nadir of Forces stages (the auto scrolling in Iron Fortress, Modern Luminous Forest), you're still doing what you're doing for the most of the game.
  25. Thumbs Up
    BadBehavior reacted to knuckles20 in Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!   
    People have been using that worn out excuse since Colors, and their solution to “3D” Sonic is to shove in as many 2D sections as possible. So forgive me for whatever patience I have left for wanting to play as other characters is running low.
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