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Miko last won the day on November 6 2009

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  1. I noticed Tails' voice sounds exactly as it does in the show (and newer games) o.o
  2. Can anybody summarize what's been going on today in a way that's relevant to the characters? No political mumbo jumbo please, I'm too sick to sort through that kinda thing today.Though ill probably read it over later anyhow. I'll also add for the final time I'm NOT saying all tomboys are guys when it comes to gender. I'm saying tomboys without a strong feminine identity that'd make them associate more with being female, are male in terms of gender. And I don't see that as derogatory. I think understanding that is actually very liberating. So I don't think I'm being deragatory to Sally or any tomboys like her when I say this. Why should your or anyone else's gender be defined by your privates? To me that's what sexism is. To say you must be a certain way because your privates are designed to confine you to being certain way and associating you with a specific identity. Someone with a penis can't be female and someone with a vagina can't be male. But really I don't really blame society for being that ignorant. I don't tolerate it, but I understand why all of it is happening. It's ingrained even in our language to condition us into polarizing ourselves based on our privates. Our language doen't make it obvious the difference between reffering one's gender and one's sex. If you say you're female people assume your gender is female AND that you have a vagina. And actually if we used words that reffered to our gender and not our sex, I think we'd be making a world where people focus more on the intimacy between individuals more than they do now. So yes, I don't feel bad about my views on Sally. I think it makes the character more interesting too.
  3. I dont think that was bruought up for that, that was supposed to be related to some discussion of politics that was I'm going to guess supposed to somehow be related to this thread. I don't get the whole conservative liberal thing either of them were talking about which I guess led to a discussion on politics and the whole sexuality thing. And after a good day of puking and crapping everything out my body, I've no interest in figuring out what they're talking about which is why I'm annoyed Flyboy was quick to associate me with it. I mean maybe what they were talking about was a legitimate discussion that ultimately lead to something stupid, but the most I'll do is clarify what I can. I see this issue is probably way beyond me for the time being and possibly even this topic.
  4. Well, even if Mobians aren't human, they can have the characteristics humans do, and it's necessary to make them human to be relateable characters. We also know that they have a sizeable amount of human DNA and comparable intellect. But Sally's never been one to care about her appearance even during the more drastic changes to her fur. She even called caring about it shallow. Such writing would be inconsistent.
  5. As for the beastiality thing, in the SonElise topic, I DID ask if you'd have sex with a dog or whatever and you were like no but because you had a girlfriend. So that'd lead one to assume that if you didn't have your girlfriend you'd be ok with having sex with a dog. I think that's where it comes from. People who are pro beastiality are not on the conservative side, and would be more liberal/progressive. She's saying how do you not understand given how much conservatives bash both concepts (a girl liking a girl and a girl liking a dog) and not get the idea it's a progressive/liberal idea? It really wasn't about throwing darts outta nowhere, if that what you thought.I don't think she worded what she said in a way that made it clear how this was incredibly relevant however, and did tell her when I read it, that maybe she might want to change how that sounded. Yes but femininity is what helps defines "female" in a gender sense, a person picking which set of gender traits expresses them more. As you've just admitted, Sally is not very feminine. Eh, she's got some things here and there depending on the writer, but even guys will have at least few feminine qualities as well. Sally doesn't readily identify with much in the way of femininity and is very disconnected from women's issues because she's been brought up to see herself the way a guy is more than likely able to see himself, and will therefore be able to readily identify with him more in that regard. So I see little reason to see her as a girl in terms of gender. Because femininity helps to define the female gender. It's not purely a matter of what Sally's got working down south for the winter. I think girls that are tomboys like I said, still have a good number of characteristics that are feminine that they greatly associate with to the extent they see themselves as more girly than masculine. For those who don't, transgenderism is a relatively new concept in terms of mainstream coverage and many cases still LACKS coverage. Many people have been still pigeonholed into being masculine or feminine based on their sex, and still do. So even if people say they're not the opposite gender despite having no deep connection with gender typically associated with their sex doesn't mean that's their REAL gender. It's like saying a person unwilling to accept they like the same sex doesn't suddenly make them "straight." Therefore I find it quite odd the notion that it's somehow offensive of me to call tomboys who specifically lack a deep connection with a feminine side that'd make them associate with a feminine gender guys in terms of gender. If that's what they are, then why be offended? You keep saying "attitudes this and that" on our end prevents social progress but that's exactly what your doing. By persistently implying tomboys like Sally, who have a much stronger connection with their masculine side than feminine side must be girls despite what's inside you are preventing people from having a casual relationship between their sex and their gender. You yourself even said: Knowing full well there are people on this board who have a stronger association with a specific gender unassociated with their sex and therefore, that sex =/= gender. Yeah well, defining gender often works by figuring out how strongly you associate with generalities. Which is the same way it works when deciding which culture you associate with more if you come from a multi-ethnic family or a minoritity group. It's not saying you don't have characteristics of other cultures in you, it's saying you have one that you associate with more. I don't think many people would deliberately write a transgendered individual because most people don't have much understanding of what a transgendered inidvidual is, and can't get their heads out of the sex=gender mindset. So they just write whatever. It's like calling a girl straight despite the fact she's constantly gravitating on some ocassions to other girls and really likes it. It may not have been your intention to illustrate her as bisexual, but it doesn't mean she's straight. It doesn't really change the fact that if Sally's a guy inside, then Sonic would technically be gay. Because for many transgendered individuals, they still consider themselves gay if their gender is female, their body is male, and they like girls. Because sex is more complex than wanting a specific body part (and when it comes to Mobians, they don't even have any privates). For many people it's a form of bonding, it's intimacy and an emotional connection. So the personal characteristics of the individual, that including their masculinity and femininity are going to be necessary to evaluate when considering your sexuality. Ok Flyboy, I don't mean to be offensive getting really sick of the topic diverting into an adhom soap box and possibly worse yet, some kind of persecution complex. 1. You're not the queen of being progressive. As a matter of fact your views on gender and sex and the relationship between the two is very ANTI progressive. 2. Not everything that is progressive/liberal is good. You yourself were just spouting offense over the idea of being associated with beastiality when beastiality=bad has been a very conservatively held belief. All this "Youre way of thinking is responsible for injustice blah blah blah" and all the things everyone's doing that's like that is really unnecessary and doesn't further discussion. While I will clarify my points to further discussion, I'm not catoring to a soap box.Bashing the morality of others doesn't make a point more or less valid and I say that to everyone, really. Guys really, what does so-and-so being progressive or conservative have ANYTHING to do with the topic. And as an individual, while I will on many ocassions see eye to eye on things, other times I don't. For example I'm really interested in the character Bunnie Rabot, while Viu sees her as an unecessary and possibly boring addition. Only address all as having a belief when all have vouched agreement. People who'd be persecuted based on how they look? Even within the context of Knothole, there were signs of people doing this if Bunnie was any indication. So you can't say Archie was making this hypothetical world where these problems don't exist
  6. Leaderlike qualities are not commonly associated with females, but these are typical methods of demonstrating leadership. You cannot say "Sally is feminine because she does these things" because regardless of whether you think those duties she's fulfilling are masculine or not they are considered duties, or responsibilities handed to Sally since her birth. By Sally herself, I might add. I never said Bunnie and Sally were deliberately being malicious to one another for there to be a feud. Rather, they just stopped caring about how the other felt after awhile and did whatever they wanted. And even with Rotor during the reconstruction period of Mobitropolis, she wasn't at all bothered about how her decision to keep Rotor from his family would bother them, or how it'd impact their relationship. Sally just doesn't really invest herself into worrying that much about where she fits in with her friends and that was my point. I never said Bunnie was actively trying to hurt Sally. She just didn't care if Sally was hurt by what she was doing because she was desperate for approval.. And for Sally she never actively went out of her way to hurt Bunnie either, but she just didn't care enough about Bunnie's feelings to be all that bothered about the consequences that'd come about with not being very involved with supporting Bunnie. I don't really think I'm reading way too much into this. Exactly how considerate is it for your best friend to go after a guy she knows you still love and are heartbroken over. How much must you mean to her if she's willing to do that? And what the hell would it say about your relationship? Yes, Bunnie and Sally made up. But that in part I blame for Ian's writing because he's brushed aside many areas of beleivable characterization in order to acheive his own ends. I'm often VERY reluctant to cite anything Ian has done, without additional support from previous writers. Red, the purpose of discussing her title, was to note it's impact on the character as she grew from an early age. It's not as simple as Sally having people slobber all over her. Even incredibly goregeous women are often worried about their appearance to some degree. And even the guys she's been interested in have criticized her appearance or have been attracted to other females. And she STILL, even when feeling emotionally insecure didn't run to altering her appearance to make herself feel more secure. Even for goregeous women, they are often on edge too It's a culture that makes you never feel good enough about how you look and that's really the goal of the beauty industry. It works because women (and minorities) are routinely judged based on their appearance and need anything from lipstick to skin bleachers to make themselves feel as though they "fit in". THAT is what makes them care about it. Men (most especially white men) don't have to worry as much about being judged on even so much as their own morality due to physical attractiveness/general appearance. Sally is one of the few females that'd share that same privelege as such men. Because she has grown up to a prestegious family that automatically warants respect and positive judgement among the people. She is still masculine in her disassociation with this issue because she is priveleged and thus ignorant in the same way a man would be for very similar reasons (social presteige: Sally is a princess which is high on the social ladder, men are likewise higher than women on the social ladder).
  7. Yes it does. And even if it didn’t, they’re not automatically associated with Sally being a girl because these qualities are being expressed as an extension of a job (that is often depicted as a DUTY and/or BURDEN to boot) rather than expression of gender. And while some people may pick a job because they think it’s “girly” or whatever, this is a job Sally was expected to have at a young age. There was no seeing if it matched up with gender identity for that argument to even hold water. Secondly, cooperation and codependence are not traits that necessarily have to be looked at as an expression of gender. Traits like co dependence, cooperation, diplomacy and the like are also values that can be found in eastern countries. So it's important that the way these qualities are expressed are done under the context of representing femininity. And secondly to restate: Sally sees this is a duty. And that's probably the worst part about it.. Let's use Bunnie and Sally. Sally wasn't really there for Bunnie when it came to her break up with Antoine. It may be that, she and the others played a supporting role in the beginning (off panel). But at the very best that was a temporary sense of engagement that they eventually ignored altogether. Sally had no emotional investment in how a lack of emotional support was hurting her friend, even when she learned that as a means to cope she used her ex boyfriend. She just wasn't consumed or worried about the strength of their relationship or about how she fit in. As a result, Bunnie eventually got to the point where she'd totally disregarded the hurt and pain that Sally was going through over her relationship to Sonic and put the moves on him. Yeah, Sonic did explain away Bunnie's actions as trying to provoke Twan, but in at least one of the instances where Bunnie kissed Sonic during a mission, they had live video feed of the mission. On top of that, one way or another characters who didn't blatantly see them (Fiona) get it on eventually learned of what happened in Sonic's Angels. But the biggest clincher would be the fact Sonic acknowledged Bunnie putting moves on him, and "Patch" was nowhere to possibly be provoked the whole time. Hell "Twan" was with the king and queen on a world tour ways away from Knothole and it's afairs from 134 to 155. It was while he was gone when Bunnie put the moves on Sonic. So Sally couldn't be so stupid (especially after having to DEAL with Patch's return and all the hardships it created) to thinkh anyone would've feasibly thought he was going to be provoked when he's not even there to be informed of what's going on with Bunnie and Sonic. No, Bunnie REALLY wanted Sonic to be her boyfriend. Did it look like by what Bunnie did to Sally that she was capable of letting Sally's lack of support slide? No. By that point Bunnie had lost enough respect for her friend, that she dated an ex she knew Sally still liked and didn't even care about how Sally would feel if she found out. Sally however wasn't the least bit concerned with how that reflected the nature of their bond. No. That's not why it's cheap. I mean that's like saying if you crushed on the same person for years, and actually dated and nearly married them for a long time despite other potential mates, that it's cheap. When Knuckles said she had a bad hair day, Sally really didn't care about it to the degree a girl worried about her appearance would and when Sally thought Mina won the triangle she didn't pretty up like Mina did when she was frustrated over her progress with Sonic. But what you're saying red is seems very akin to how many men will grow up. Men don't have images bombarding them surrounding their appearance and are generally a lot more confident or indifferent compared to women. And more importantly The level of respect society gives them doesn't so greatly depend on whether or not they look pretty or not for those images to have much meaning in the first place. So let's think about it in terms of Sally. Sally's a princess. She's going to get social perks regardless of how she looks. So she doesn't have to look at what constitutes beauty in her culture because it's not going to change how much respect she regularly receives. The people know Sally Acorn. Not just as a princess but as someone who led a group of rebels towards their freedom. No one's going to be questioning her morality, intelligence and the like. It's also known that prettier people are generally assumed to be "better" people. Like men in comparison to women, they dominate and control the culture like she does and because of that they don't have to worry as much about being judged. Male minorities may be more conscious of their appearance, but that's because they know they can be regularly demeaned and disrespected because of how they look. Sally also dresses like a guy to further implicate the notion that Sally’s views on appearance reflect a more masculine opinion than they do a feminine opinion. Worse yet, she actually associated her emotionally instable period with the feminine appearance she’d been toting and decided to go back to the boyish look when she was “in her right mind” so to speak.
  8. Most people aren't into them like Tails or Rotor, guys or girls. But its also about behavior and the things in life you persue. Like I said though, most traits many people would feel accustomed to associating with what makes a woman that are also in Sally fail to make the connections with the character due to her upbringing and background. Sally was taught things like patience, ccoperation, diplomacy, and the like because she was taught it meant to be a ruler not because it's what it meant to be a woman. A position she has worse yet, associated with a duty she's invested in like a long-time boyfriend that was decided at birth. A duty that while fulfilling in it's help, is a very frustrating and often burdensome to deal with. So it's very difficult to associate what Sally's doing as an celebration and expression of her trying to be a girl, rather with her job as has it's been done so often. She's also been known to feel very distressed when not in the loop or lacking control of a situation. Another issue is that Sally doesn't tackle a lot in the way of women's issues. Yes, she may be concerned about love but I doubt Sally is going to base her sense of gender on something like her love life. Sally isn't regularly consumed with her relationships to the other characters. A normal girl would've been freaked out that her best friend kissed her ex and Bunnie over Sally's lack of involvement in spite of how hurt she was over her split up with Ant (Buns didn't help Sal either tho). Even if they both reconciled realizing the other was being selfish, the conflict was never put in motion. Sally doesn't really worry herself much over the relationships between her friends beyond feeling left out from the action (under Ian's writing of course). But that's not the same as feeling as being distressed over the notion you're emotionally disconnected and lack insight on things like their feelings and fitting in, with that regard in mind. And perhaps the biggest social issue for girls to date? Body image. Body image isn't necessarily simply just about being sexually attractive. For women, good girls are associated with being physically beautiful while less attractive girls are associated with being wicked and cruel people. And ironically the girl given the most respect, the most adoration by the most guys and the most screentime is all the same person. So she actually perpetuates the problem, and the basis for WHY girls worry so much about their appearance. In today's society to be a good girl often means being a pretty girl. And Sally looks down on people who primp and preen calling them shallow (Knuckles 29 for those who go "nuh-uuh" ). That's like saying people mindful of their complexion are being shallow. Uh, no honey. It's called being worried about how OTHERS will judge you based on that appearance. Which reflects again how Sally doesn't really care that much about interpersonal relationships to the extent it'd even create an emotional conflict to overcome. She's very ignorant. It's not "strong" really. Because to be strong, you have to feel pressure. Even in a physical sense. Just because you can lift a 5 pound weight with ease while the second person is struggling to lift 100 pounds doesn't make you the strongest. You may look more graceful, but that's really about it. Since issue 18 she was written by a guy who had no respect for the conflicts women go through and the struggles they endure and has admitted to have little connection with traditional women. Nor did he feel a girl with a more traditionally "girly" features could be as strong. The only break we really got in the slightest was when Karl took over and ironically Sally's fans bawwed about how "it just wasn't Sally!"
  9. We could honestly go forever trying to list everything o__o It's like asking "please tell me everything about American/Japanese/Egyptian/Korean/Italian culture.
  10. Actually even in sociology a culture trait is something used to describe at minimum a large minority (at least 30%) of a certain group. So yes, a generality that many women acknowledge sharing is fine. Just keep in mind that men and women don't have to encompass everything associated with the gender. Well your not. While it's seems socially influential (and there are chemicals women produce like oxytocin that help the bonding process between mother and child A guy can have this feminine quality. All guys can have this feminine quality and still associate themselves with being predominantly masculine. I think in reality it's more rare to find someone who is totally polarized when it comes gender sharing absolutely no masculine and no feminine qualities. Just like with women who associate with a lot of male qualities, men can associate with a good number of female qualities and still be...male, lol. Depends on what your passionate about ;p It's something that we don't tend to really think about. We just feel it unless we research and think a lot deeply about the issue. But that goes for just about all forms of things that are psychological. A person who is depressed may have no conscious basis for why they are depressed but it can be biological. A person may not be consciously aware of the affect the media played in their buying a bunch of crappy merchandise but it happens. Especially in media. Media is a great example of how notions subtle and almost unconsciously drilled in until you start to think deeply about it.
  11. What's wrong with using generalities though? Stereotypes are exaggerations, oversimplifications and are offensive. Unless you associate things considered feminine as offensive, and don't consider any feminine traits with exaggerations there's nothing stereotypical about anything you cite. However good and bad, associating with a gender doesn't mean you encompass EVERYTHING in that gender pool. It just means there are things associated with that gender that you associate with more than you do with the things that are in the other. That and as someone else here said (I think it was kiljoy) there are differences in hormone levels and in brain make up that account for biological differences in the way men and women think. So yes you can say there are socially created to an extent but assuming that's all there is to it ignores a much deeper question. Consciously, anyway. Female isn't an emotion like happiness or sadness. anyway research to discuss biological, neurological differences between males and females, hetero and homosexual is ongoing. But I'd think most researchers would be willing to acknowledge there's at least SOME differences between the average male and female. http://www.medicaleducationonline.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46&Itemid=69 It's really difficult to say what's social roles are stemmed in biology. But a good deal of traits masculine and feminine have pros and cons with the exception of those that demand for the subordination of others. So many people don't see a reason to be ashamed. While I admit Sally does do things like negotiate while Sonic would much sooner fight and organizes on the subject of team work this is more or less something more associated with her "oh so burdensome responsibilities and duties handed down to her because she's a princess." And that's actually another thing I dislike. Rather than just finding a girly-girl who'd feel more than happy to negotatiate, emphasize to more masculine characters the value of team work and cooperation, Sally portays these things poorly as some sort of burdensome responsibilities. Not something that's a very good plus about being girly. It's known that Sally's learned those things by people like Julayla to become a leader and by leader I mean ruler (although she's applied such diplomatic, qualities to being leader of the FFs). It makes it very difficult to present another female who could do these things naturally because the Sally fans will whine about how said girl "steals Sally's thunder" which means we're stuck having this beat-down of how girly girls are more likely like to contribute and help out. EDIT: She also said however: So SatAM Robotnik could've just as easily done that too. It's well known that the earlier series was more light hearted but by the actual death egg saga, he has his quirks but is still quite the evil overlord. And in any case SatAM Julian also had his funny moments despite being an evil overlord.
  12. Sex=/= gender. Having a PINGAS doesn't mean your gender is male, it means your sex is male. Yes I'm aware of that. But if you've been reading anything I've said at all, I've said gender assocation has more to do with which set of traits we encompass/identify with MORE in today's world. I've SAID more masculine individuals have feminine qualities, and vice versa, but gender is what we see ourselves as more. Sally obviously seeing her gender as something more masculine than feminine. We are no longer as restricted to think that sex=gender (as you have just demonstrated) OR that just because you identify more with a gender doesn't mean you have to encompass all the traits associated with that gender. We've been through this. In the games Robotnik took over refineries factores and cities and turned sentient animals into slaves. In SatAM it was NEVER stated that Robotnik ruled the entire world. It said at best he'd managed to accomplish conquering 90% of the realm. But it was clear that MANY locations on Mobius were not affected or conquered by Robotnik. He was, like his game counterpart in progress of trying to dominate the world, already making a foothold in the place that was Sonic's residence. The only change mentioned that I find at all substantial was Tails' and that has plenty to do with the fact that guess who became Sonic's best friend and partner on missions instead of Tails. But here's the logic I'm following. Someone JUST said Sally should behave as the "original." Despite what you think, following THAT line of logic not only was Tails and Sonic's treatment substantially modified (moreso Tails than Sonic) Sally should've had a similar role to Ricky. Not saying what SatAM ultimately chose to do was right or wrong. I'm saying what I'm saying to follow a line of logic presented to me to demonstrate it's inconsistency.
  13. She was a damsel. They were added in there as that same singular character because the game developers were lazy. If you're going to hold that arguement you'd be back handing your "game developers are lazy" arguement to discuss things like Amy looking different in the SA recap of Sonic CD for example. Those squirrels are all Ricky. Kinda did the same thing in their flicky games IIRC. But it's been much more noted Sally was taken from Ricky. Thus all other inspirations should be a damsel. Though, I can understand that interpretation could be considered too loosely connected to Sally because despite the inspiration the two characters are far too different which I actually understand (though it could've made an intresting rebuttal as to why Spinball wasn't canon). Nevertheless Archie came first by several months. It has no reason to base itself off SatAM because it was the first one to come out.
  14. Yeah, "she" is. "She" was central to the plot because "she" was someone Sonic had to save from Eggman. That's like saying Amy wasn't an established character in CD just because she was just a damsel which isn't true.Oh she wasn't the companion comrade but you should stop trying to twist Sally to fit your ideals of what a female lead should be. If "she" were damsel in the original, then by your logic that's what SatAM, and thus Archie (which IIRC came before SatAM) should've been portraying her as. Yeah because I totally haven't been giving reaons as to why I see her as a trangendered male =/ I read the comics because there are characters I like. I anticipate it being bad these days though, so I have to find SOMETHING constructive out of reading this shit That's something that could quickly be conveyed in....writing decently? Are you saying Ian sucks ass Kiljoy? The run down isn't really to give an idea of characterization. "Hero of Mobius" is a denoting Sonic's role of the main character. "Hero of Mobius" is not a personality trait. The captions are to explain a chacter's relevance to Sonic's story. You may not understand that Sally's the leader of the FFs very quickly on, and it may be necessary for you to know that to get into the story sooner. Personality traits should however be conveyed in actual writing. Her position of princess is not relevant to the story. Her position as leader of the FFs? Yes, but what does her title as princess regularly have anything to do with this story, most especially THIS story? Neither is a tomboy and Sally being a princess doesn't explain what she contributes.
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