Roger_van_der_weide

Heh, I remember being bored by the repetition even before I realized I have to replay the entire game with each team over and over. Darn shame. The idea of having a more light, more focused and clean game after the epic but very cluttered Sonic Adventures was a neat idea, but it seems Sonic Team had no idea how to fill their stages with anything interesting. Especially compared with SA1 that jampacked it's level with so many surprises and twists. The visuals are nice, tough. Altough used badly sometimes. I love how the city skyline of Metropolis looks like, but then most of the stage just takes place in endless boring green rooms all the time. Hmm. But yeah, I mostly remember the game just being empty and very copy paste- ey. They kinda did with Sonic advance 3 I guess, which was also received poorly (Tough not for the Teamwork aspect I think) And Sonic Heroes' "Cast is constantly discussing the story/ level with each other during gameplay" schtick was revisited in Sonic Forces. And I suppose Team Sonic racing it revisiting the concept to a degree again. We'll see how that ends. So at least Sonic Team's still experimenting with the idea from time to time. One thing that surprised me about Sonic Heroes, I was checking wikipedia out of curiousity to see if it had considerable less development time then the Sonic Adventure games. But they say it's the opposite. SA1 had 10 months, SA2 had 18 months and Heroes had 20 months of development time according to Wikipedia... Weird, you think with double the development time as Sonic Adventure and only one gameplay style to focus on, it should end up better. Then again, looking at the endcredits, seems SA1 had 3 times more staff programming and designing the game then Heroes. Altough SA2 seems roughly the same size team as Heroes. And maybe Wikipedia is wrong. Can't find any other sources for development time. There's more then 10 months between Sonic Jam and Sonic Adventure 1, so if Sonic Jam's 3d level was an early prototype, then it's been brewing way longer.

I fully agree with you there, that's the true reason why Sonic Lost World feels off, I just don't have enough faith in most game journalists/ average players to realize that. And as a result, I'm concerned if Sonic Team realizes what the specific issues are what people are bothered about and not also making broad generalizations. Sonic Team does tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to them "Fixing" problems.

Yes, and no.... Lego Dimensions did a weird thing where the storymode of Sonic had the levels designed as 2d stages, but you still have 3d movement of Sonic. Which was a bit awkward. Occasionally you could fall behind the level geometry if you accidently walked away from the camera. But it's mostly the Green Hill Zone section that's designed to be fully 2d, the other levels do have 3d open area's incoporated for Lego's typical puzzle gameplay, even if most of the level is stylized to resemble a 2d level.

I think the biggest diffrence between now and then is hope. Back in the 06 era, I felt most people had a "If only Sonic Team makes a 2d game again, it'll be fine/ If only Sonic team get's rid of the other characters, it'd be fine/ if Only Sonic Team get's more time, it'd be fine." sense of hope. Now everything we wanted at the time has been tried and it's "If only Sonic Team makes a 2d game...Oh, Sonic 4. If only Sonic's friends are back, oh, Rise of Lyric... If only Sonic Team was given more time, oh, Sonic Forces had 4 years. If only Sonic Team let's another team take over, oh, Rise of Lyric..." The ultimate irony of the current era is that we have a parody of everything people loudly wanted. Okay, so Sonic 06 was terrible because it was too far removed from the classics, 3d doesn't work, Sonic's friends are terrible, the story too convuluted and serious and there are too many gameplay distortions? Well okay then. Now 3d gameplay has been reduced to be the amateur opening act for the grand 2d gameplay concert, gameplay is just running straight to the goal with no weird diversions, Sonic's friends are rotting in a corner, story's a meaningless parade of shiny nostalgia objects dangling in front of your stupid face, the finest "I'm sure I've heard his exact joke in every cartoon ever" humor is pounded in your face non stop and Green Hill Zone is shoved so far down your throat that you'll barf Classic Sonic until judgement day. And hey, Boost, Wisps and nostalgia were praised when they were introduced, so let's desperatly cling onto those and shove them in everywhere. Everything you complained about is elminated, everything you praised is expanded. Sonic Forces is the perfect Sonic game, enjoy. Sonic Team's like the genie from those fairytales that lets everyone's wishes backfire on them. I don't know if they do it delbieratly to troll people, or it's a perfect example of doing what people want without understanding why people want it, but the results are so artistically genius that they belong in a museum. The only hope people seem to have at the moment is to put the Mania team back into action. I feel sorry for the Mania team, they'll have a huge burden to bare if they ever dare step into the ring again. And me personally, I only care for Neo Classic Sonic if they'll give him a brand new and semi-serious adventure again because I'm utterly DONE with the shallow nostalgia pandering meme humor. It has overtaken every other quality the series used to have. Cute as that Mania adventures cartoon was, I have no interest in the sequel show unless it's going to be closer to the OVA movie in tone. Comedy in support of an adventure rather then absorbing it like the all consuming black hole that it is.

I like how wide the streets are, with several options where to go. I like wide race tracks. But yeah, with a direct Unleashed/ Generations comparison, it IS noticible how slow the game looks like. Altough considering I've heard talk that the gameplay is a lot more strategy heavy, I guess that makes more sense, need to pay attention to your team mates more. And agreed, the gravity defying bend looks really awkward when there's no sci fi elements or break neck speed from the racers to justify it. Makes me wish they added spectacle moments more trough in-context logical things like going trough traffic or occupied railtracks rather then aping Mario kart 8. Oh well.

Something that concerns me more about the boost gameplay is if it even leaves the option open to ever go back. The "Sonic should be stupidly fast!!!!" mentality is ingrained into people's minds, so going back to a slower gameplay style will likely get a lot of complaints. I recall Sonic Lost World being disliked for being slow, even tough it doesn't seem slower then, say, the Adventure games. Which sucks, if we ever want a 3d Sonic game that has any kind of significant platforming ingrained in it's level design, that's impossible to do if the player wants to brainlessly hammer the boost button. And they'll feel betrayed if the game forces them to slow down to survive, I've seen so many people freak out over Sonic Generations. And so did Sonic Team, if Sonic Forces' game design is an indication. Always fascinating to see new players go from complete joy in boosting brainlessly trough Green Hill Zone to completely crumble from the inside when they realise chemical plant zone actually requires you to play the game every now and then. I suppose 2d fans should be grateful Sonic Rush didn't poison the 2d games like that, I haven't seen anyone complain Sonic Mania is too slow. Altough I did see people have zero tolerance for water and airplane stages, so even with Mania I notice there's severe impatience for anything that isn't full throttle action. Either way, far as the 3d games are concerned, I still think Lost World's Parkours system could be a great help in resolving the speed problem, even if Lost World itself never seemed interested.

Rise of Lyric qualifies as 3d, but not really as a Sonic game in my head. More a beat em up/ Jak and Daxter game that imported Sonic models into it. So I don't count it like I usually don't count Sonic Runners or Shattered Crystal as 2d Sonic games unless I'm snarky/ thorough for technical reasons. Altough I suppose you could argue with the current state of the franchise, there is no real identity to what a Sonic game is anymore so Sonic Jump and Lego Dimension's Sonic world are as legit as any other proper game...Okay, fine, you win. I'll rephrase my statement as "Lego Dimensions was great, can't wait for the next Non-Sonic Team 3d Sonic game. And Non- Sonic Team 2d game for that matter."

Especially since Lost World's planet Hex is SUPPOSED to look weird for Sonic standards, hence the name. "Lost World". "Lost Hex" We're supposed to be all "What a weird world, made out of hexes? I wonder what more secrets and amazing stuff it's hiding!" But then Sonic's regular world also looks like that, so now Lost Hex is just a bunch of meaningless levels with no theme or unique concept at all since Sonic's entire universe operates on the same logic. Just like how Hex was supposed to be the "continent of the future" and "made out of illusions" according to some supplemental material. It seems at some point that Sonic Team designed Hex as an actually interesting world with a unique theme to it, an actual "lost world" for us to discover. But somewhere along the way they went for their usual design philosophy of "Eh, whatever" and now it's just more clutter in the shapeless careless smudge that is Sonic's universe. I'm always baffled when I then hear stories of Sonic Team having super strict and completely random rules for, say, the American comics to abide too. All pretending they have standards and some some grand design the other teams must obey, while carelessly bouncing from one half baked idea to the next abondonned concept themselves. I would so love to see the series bible that it allegedly has, and see if there's even one game that follows it. If there are, it's probably only the games made by secondary teams. As for the topic, does Sonic Forces get me waiting for the next 3d game? I've been waiting for the next 3d game since Sonic Unleashed. We got Sonic Mania now, can we stop with the pointless hybrids please?

We' ve already seen 3 of the 7 race locations. They'll probably only reveal one more before launch. How many of it's 7 zones did Sonic Forces reveal before launch? And they deliberatly revealed 12 of the 15 racers (And 2 more by accident) So what do you even expect them to reveal anymore? I think we've seen the majority of the concent. I expect little other then the shocking relevation if we get Seaside hill for the 100th time, or Green Hill Zone for the 5028th time. I hope it's Green Hill, if only for the potential of a mecha/ Neo/ sand version of the track. Not to mention it'd be a shame to break the current streak of unbroken appearences. And I don't think they care enough about the included story to make a big deal out of it. Much as I'd like full rendered cutscenes with a zany adventurous plot like Sonic Riders had, it's more likely we get a repeat of Free Riders cheap presentation and bad jokes marathon. Hard to make a trailer about that.

Depends on what you mean with " genuinely like it" I do genuinely like playing it in terms of simple adreline arcade action thingy. If I turn by brain off, or just play it as a "collect all items to unlock all customes" kinda thing, it can be fun. But yeah, soon as I turn by brain on, it's just overwhelming in how many oppurtunities it wastes and confused in what Sonic Team was even trying to do with this game. I genuinely enjoy it for what it Doesn't do (Stupid puzzles and pace destroying gimmicks like Lost world and Colors did) but I'm dissapointed in so far what the game DOES do, as in, mostly flaunting around excelent ideas but not really executing any of them. Dunno if that counts as "Okay" or" genuinely liking it" I can recommend the game to those who enjoy walking simulators, at least.

The Sonic R tracks would need to be edited down then, don't think the openness and all the optional side paths of Sonic R's tracks will translate well. Not to mention the minor platforming sections. But I agree it would be neat to see them pull it off, not to mention would justify the random R in the logo. Heck, include an entire series of Retro style tournaments, Mario Kart style. Sonic and Sega all star tracks should be easy to translate to the new game. Sonic R and Riders would be more tricky because of game specific gimmicks, but it would be neat to race trough Sonic Free Riders tracks in a game that isn't a nightmare to control. Heck, even Sonic Drift racing could be re-used like what Mario kart does with the Snes/ GBA tracks. I really doubt it would happen, but it'd be awesome if it would.

I was more parroting the general consensus rather the my own opinion there, so can't make hard statements about this. I think the biggest issue with the early Adventure era dialogue is either from a technical perspective rather then a writing perspective (Sa1's clunky pauses and tonal changes between lines like the actors said each line in a vacuum, SA2's sound mixing problems) That and some people hate the weird translation quirks like some Japanese phrases being left in SA2's dialogue, altough personally I think they kinda work. As if it matters whether screaming during a karate kick or random sounds you make when petting a Chao is English. And with the later Adventure era is more the focus on exposition and plot technical details rather then the cast's own quirky personalities. (Sonic 06 in particular is very dry. Other then Silver enjoying the past world and Sonic and Elise's occasonal romantic banter, it's mostly the cast explaning stuff. Especially Eggman.) To Sonic Colors's defense for that specific scene, it was supposed to be a joke and Sonic is called out for his behavior. I didn't find it particularly funny, but it's intentional, so yeah. Can't fault the scene on being unnatural if that's the point. Other then that, the technical aspect of the dialogue is well done, and there's a larger focus on the characters personality (I could argue that their personalities are slightly off, but I have to admit at least there's a focus on character driven dialogue at all.) So that's Color's strenght. But also weakness, as the game get's so wrapped up in making their characters look clever and witty that it's at the expense of the adventure itself. Hence why my personal pick of "bad scene" for Sonic Colors is when Tails and Sonic start a comedy routine right as the themepark is starting to shake and collapse. Way to ruin the momentum and tension of the finale. A single quick joke would have sufficed. And to Forces defense, that game was light on jokes and goofyness. And most of the jokes feel justified and to the point. So I disagree that comedy and goofyness ruined the friendship speech. I'd say the friendship angle is more ruined by the fact Modern Sonic makes no sense as friendship advocate. He's so perfect and indestructable that any help his friends can provide feels meanignless. Amplified by the fact that Sonic resolves the entire situation without a sweat as soon as he sleepwalks out of his prison cell, rendering everything the main cast did for 6 months meaningless. And his typical "Lone rider leaving toward the sunset" ending is hilariously out of place after he gave a giant speech about how they'll all work together and re-build the world together. I suppose that just leaves Unleashed as the one with the better dialogue, being right in the middle between the Adventure and Colors era. Altough with that game I have an issue that the plot momentum is completely dormant for most of the running time. There's always something wrong, so pick your poison what's the most tolerable for you.

I agree blindly chasing after the Adventure games again isn't a good idea, they got some serious issues. Thing is, they're more liked for their general energy and concepts more then their specific tehnical execution. But man, I'd be lying if there Sonic team's pursuit to their new directions haven't cost many good elements that get lost in the scuffle either. So looking back at the old games to see what's been missing wouldn't be bad either. If there's one thing I think the Adventure era(And Classic era for that matter) did better then modern Sonic is having convictions in it's themes. Sonic adventure is about ancient civilization Aztec stuff. And aside from some general Dr. Eggman havoc and some city levels, the game is entirely devoted to it, temples, jungles, a story about the ancient tribe, a villain from the ancient legends, the whole package. Or even a game like Shadow, call it misguided and an ill fit for the Sonic series what you want, but IF you are interested in the whole "Dark Edgey hedgehog battling aliens" theme it presents, you'll get what you want with the game entirely devoted to it. Sonic Rush Adventure has a pirate theme, so it has pirate levels, pirate villains, a story about a hunting treasure, gameplay revolving around sailing the seas. Sonic CD embraces it's time travel, Sonic Unleashed is all about world traveling (altough wasting it's werehog theme) Sonic and the black knight it's King Arthur stuff, SA2 it's goverment consipiracy militairy themes. Etc. Etc. Etc. All with the music, the villains, the level themes and gameplay elements devoted to the central theme. If you like the theme they're going for, they got you covered. But modern Sonic just can't stick to it's guns for some reason. How come Sonic adventure managed to pack more Themepark gameplay gimicks in one fricking level then Sonic Colors did across it's entire game? Lost world gives us a fantastic parkours style gameplay, yet I hardly remember more then 5% of the game having levels designed around it and is either about completely unrelated gimicks or have a level design fighting AGAINST the parkours style, with flat and cramped stages. Never mind it's story themes, you got Japanese demons, Eggman having juice giving his robots super power, The lost hidden continent of the future/ illusions and none of those are explored and utilized beyond the bare minimum. And Sonic Forces is so desperatly bouncing between being Sonic Lost world 2 and Sonic World war 2 that it gives me a whiplash. And while I can credit Sonic Colors for at least having a decent flow and focused direction to its story, but Lost world and Forces seem to just blindly stumble from disconnected plotpoint to disconnected plotpoint. As much as I love mocking, say, Sonic Rush for it's hamfisted and awkward moral that Blaze needs to accept Sonic as her lord and saviour, at least the game does spend a lot of time and energy selling that plot. Beats me how Sonic Forces suddenly stumbles into a "And it's all because of friendship!"conclusions by the end. It's really fascinating how Modern Sonic's writing in terms of dialogue improved and made it more smooth and natural instead of the more jerky and awkward speech from the Adventure era, but as far as plot progression is written, it went in reverse. The only time modern Sonic seems to be able to stick to it's theme is whenever a game is based entirely around recycling the past, like Generations, Mania and so on. And surprise, they tend to be the most fun, cohesive and well executed. All other games seem to desperatly cram in as many ideas as possible. Really wish we could get a Sonic game that's really ABOUT something again, instead of piles of vaguely interesting ideas chocking each other to death. This is also why I don't see the point of any "I hope the next Sonic game will be Serious/ Funny/ About Blaze/ Sonic adveture 3/ Sonic Cd 2/ 3d platformer/ boost" arguments. Doesn't matter what theme they pick next time if the other 95% of the game will blindly stumble into 25 contradicting directions.

I don't think lack of seriousness is the problem. SA1 and SA2 sure had a lot more goofyness then Sonic Forces had. Seems to me it's more the lack of conviction and energy that's the problem. Modern games not having fun with their own premise. I'm tearing my hair out when I read about, say, Sonic Team's plans with the Lost Hex from Sonic Lost world and reading them describe it as a world of illusions and a continent of the future, and then looking at the game and scream "Where? WHERE? Where's all this cool stuff?" Or Sonic Forces dumbass war theme. YOU HAVE EGGMAN IN CONTROL OF THE ENTIRE PLANET!!! A VILLAIN THAT CAN SCREW WITH THE HEROES BRAINS WITH CREATING ILLUSIONS! Whether using it for comedy or drama, I don't care, DO SOMETHING WITH THAT PREMISE!

Kinda pointless to speculate with no data. Easy answer is "The Movie/ Team Sonic Racing." Hard answer is "I dunno." Speculative answer is "Showing off Hedgehog engine 2?" Cynical answer is "Not what you want/ Want you want but terribly done."