horridus

Yeeah, Penders has always had this.... truly baffling viewpoint of how his precise relationship with SEGA actually works or how it would work, acting as though he's a legitimate player in the scheme of things despite his lack of media experience and being a for-hire comic writer for a spinoff book meant to promote the games. If he were a fictional character you'd call him unrealistic. Fun fact though- once upon a time, Penders was actually quite capable of acknowledging the factors that made the book so successful, back in the day. In an interview he directly attributed the great sales to the fact that for a long stretch of time, the Archie comics were the only game in town. SatAM was cancelled, and there weren't any real major Sonic games until the Dreamcast came out and Sonic Adventure became a thing. For a very long time, the Archie Comic was the only fix available, and Penders understood and acknowledged this. Course, that was then, and this is now- by this point Penders has wholly convinced himself that he was the sole reason for the book's successes, and absolutely refuses to hear otherwise or take into consideration other factors that would have aided his success. Something like that. Its more like that Penders at this point abjectly refuses to grasp people didn't come to the book for him and his characters, but for Sonic, and anything he put into the book became popular only because of the Sonic connection. Well, that's not entirely true- he knows it, but he doesn't really want to admit to it, hence why he tries so damn hard to keep up the Sonic connection for his new project. More accurately, he doesn't grasp that the Archie book was never a major influence on the wider franchise or that it has always been a niche when compared to the wider audience for the games. He's only vaguely aware of how successful Sonic really is as a game series, once revealing that he believed there was only 'a dozen or so' games a few years ago. He only really processes Sonic's success as a COMIC book phenomenon, with the games as an afterthought. There were a great many ways Penders could have gone about this without alienating the fanbase in the process, but the thing of it is, at the end of the day, what Penders wants is a fast track to success. His mentality is that of a man who wants to invent the Chia Pet- something with little effort and a lot of success. The other paths out there would have taken too long and with too much effort, and so, we are here. There's no need. Try this- http://kenpenders.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2717 Copy and paste this into the wayback machine, and proceed from there. Hopefully you'll be able to find it then. Oh, you're quite correct that he gets misblamed for a great many things, and even gets miscredited for what he did in the book (you'd be amazed at how many people think he's the sole person behind EVERYTHING in the Archie comic before Ian Flynn rolled into things). Indeed comparing him to such real life figures is going overboard, given that at the end of the day he's just a putrid little man who was given more chances than he deserved, at the hands of a company so complacent that it actually hired the man to begin with and let him keep his jobs despite him not actually being all that good at it. I'm just pointing out that Penders tendency to make a spectacle of himself is what makes it so easy to think of it as all him rather than as the result of Archie's negligence. He's the one who constantly reminds people of what happened and continues to act like a jerk towards... well... pretty much everybody. That, and as a person he's more directly addressable than Archie- none of the people responsible for the loss of the paperwork have a twitter, and furthermore, Archie itself doesn't constantly bring up the trial and take shots at Penders. Penders does the exact opposite, while putting himself on a pedestal that tends to invite people to want to knock him down. There's no real hero in this story, its just that one of the players is dumb enough to keep reminding people of what he did and thus ensuring that everyone will remember HIS misdeeds rather than Archie's. Astoundingly enough, Penders seemed fairly convinced that he would be with Sonic forever, and in particular was completely certain that the Knuckles series would keep going for another hundred issues or so. He really seemed to think he would be 'the' Sonic guy, and having to share the creative duties of the book was one of the causes behind his eventual feud with Bollers- Penders tended to ignore anything not pertaining to his own plans, and deeply resented any kind of intrusion into what he saw as his own private domain. The reason he quit? Was because he couldn't stand the fact that things were changing away from the status quo he preferred, and having to deal with an editor who wanted him to include more game characters and concepts. Archie was a very unique case. Basically, Archie didn't give the Sonic book much oversight for a very long time, and SEGA didn't really care all that much so long as Sonic characters were used and the book sold. There was very little in the way of quality control- what you read about Penders finalizing stories and then moving on is quite true, and he himself even admitted that Archie would even publish incomplete stuff just to make the deadline. Archie was extremely unique in this regard, and at least part of it was due to eventual editor Justin Gabrie having an incredibly hands off approach. The future feud between Bollers and Penders happened because he didn't bother to properly communicate things, and for the longest time that was the way of things. When Sonic Adventure came out and SEGA decided they wanted a more coherant approach to Sonic, that slowly changed, and the end result of it was that Penders eventually left. As to where Archie was during all of this? Their top priority was always their in-house titles, and in truth they didn't care to pay much attention to Sonic due to it being licensed, despite how popular it was and despite it eventually becoming their flagship title. It was this that allowed all the other stuff to happen, and is part of the reason they took so little care of the paperwork. In fact, the fact Archie was so shoddily run is entirely the reason Penders had a career. He was brought on board due to the reccomendation of a friend who already worked at Archie, stayed on board because he was buddies with the first editor he had (Scott Fulop), and continue to stay on board because Gabrie just let him be. He found a job where his work would sell like hotcakes regardless of the quality and regardless of the content, and nobody ever bothered to really reign him in. Everything about Penders' career with Sonic is due entirely to him being at the right place at the right time and being able to stay that way for a decade without ever having to improve himself. Once that changed, he left.

You are not the first to ask this. In fact, it was one of the first questions to come up when this mess- why NOT make it wholly original and be free of any constraints? Why bother with all of this at all? Why not just shuffle the names, make a bit of effort at originality, and simply go forth from there? Well, the reasons are twofold, and they intimately tie in to one another. Now the first thing you need to understand, is that Penders is under the impression that his work (and let's be clear here- its ONLY his work that he really cares about or holds this view of) is far more valuable and influential than it really is. Like, either he believes this or has done a very good job of convincing the world he does, but the bottom line is that he's convinced that his work on Archie has a huge reader base and is incredibly influential and would still sell super well today, despite all the things that made his work relevant no longer having any real place within the franchise. He's obsessive and deeply hellbent on the idea that his work was a potential gold mine, in particular his ambitions for a Sonic movie- he's gone on at length at how his Sonic Movie idea would've CHANGED EVERYTHING if only THOSE FOOLS at SEGA/ARCHIE had just let him have his way. Hell, he even tried to strong arm a Knuckles movie from SEGA during the lawsuit. (Not even kidding there, read and be astounded) So, point of order? He thinks his work is profitable and popular, and what he wants most of all are the profits that could be made from reprinting his work, and as such, this needs to directly tie in to that. Mind you though, profit is only part of the reason, and the second part ties in closely with the first. That second part being that Sonic is the only thing Penders has ever had going for him. For as much as he tries to hype his other projects and his career outside of Sonic, the sad reality is that Sonic and Knuckles are the only things that gave him any kind of success or acclaim. His work before Sonic is lackluster, and none of his 'original' works ever went anywhere- The Lost Ones, a comic series made for Image, was cancelled after the first issue, and he still has yet to demonstrate that The Republic will ever be released. His entire identity is intertwined with Sonic, as are his successes. Whatever he claims, deep down he is painfully aware that Sonic is the only thing he's known for and the only thing that's worked for him. He doesn't have any real confidence in his own ideas, and as such he needs the Sonic connection more than anything. You noted the changes he's made, but the thing of it is, those changes are at the absolute minimum needed to make his work 'distinct' while at the same time trying his damndest to maintain the Sonic connection. The biggest changes we've seen so far have been in those areas where he has no other options. Otherwise? He's still using Mobius, for God's sake. So yeah, in short? Its a weird mixture of avarice, pride, and ultimately cowardice. While that is a lovely sentiment, the sad reality is that Ken is more responsible than for his own wretched status within this fandom than anyone. See, everyone does indeed know that it was Archie's staggering incompetence that allowed a pipsqueak like Penders to go anywhere, and that as far as companies go they're one of the worst. Nobody denies it. The thing of it is though is that Ken is... honestly, kind of a really awful guy, and he brings it on himself. He's been repeatedly caught lying about his career and dismissing the worth of creators who aren't him, has been nothing but horrible to Flynn before AND after the trial, pushes shoddy work while screaming about how professional he is, and in once instance even stole the name of his intended series from a fanwork made by a devoted fan of his, and abjectly refused to speak with the guy or anything. It's recounted here. http://web.archive.org/web/20150427113133/http://kenpenders.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2717 Take note that this guy wasn't just some small timer either- he was a long time member of the forum and a defender of Ken's, and even discounting the theft Ken's treatment of him is nothing short of awful. Also, apologies if the link leads nowhere. For some reason this stupid site gets weird about links from time to time, especially to the wayback captures of Ken's old forum. Anyway.... it'd take me far, far too long to do a step by step over all the crap Ken has done. Point of order, his reputation is more than well earned, and even discounting The Lawsuit he's just a wretched excuse for a man. But the thing that makes people hate him above all else, even Archie who enabled him and allowed him to get further than he ever should have? He hasn't moved on since the Trial, not even remotely. Everyone else has gotten along, even after Archie lost the SOnic license. Everyone except him. He still has nothing to show for his efforts, and he still refuses to acknowledge that his era is well and truly done, all the while making a jackass out of himself whenever possible and loudly screeching about what a professional he is, despite having recently been caught directly copying art and selling it (an image of Shadow that came from Sonic Chronicles, ironically enough). This post is long enough, as you said, but point of order? The hatred Penders gleans even when compared to Archie is virtually entirely of his own doing. While he gets blamed for more than he is responsible for, his behavior makes it incredibly easy, and the fact he has absolutely nothing to show for all the misery he inflicted on the fans during that lawsuit only exacerbates matters. The fact that he consistently tries to portray himself as the SOnic Savior and the 'only one' who knew Sonic's 'potential' when it was nakedly clear he never, ever cared about Sonic or Knuckles beyond what they could do for him doesn't help matters, like, at all.

Seriously. I should note that those 'few stories' Angelo DeCesare did numbered in 14 in total (at least according to Comicvine), and contrary to what Ken is saying here, DeCesare was indeed the first one to build up the Bunnie/Antoine romance. Now, the BOLLERS incident can be recounted earlier in this thread. Namely here... Aaand here. So yeah, in short? No matter what Ken likes to profess about himself and professional courtesy, he doesn't actually have a lot of respect for anyone who isn't him. Any pretense to the contrary is just him trying to re-write history in his own favor. A *bit*? That tweet REEKS of smug condensation. If that tweet were a person you'd want to punch it just for looking at you, and no court on Earth would fault you for it. You know, I would expect myself to be pissed, but honestly that's just legitimately sad that this man honestly thinks that's good reasoning. These characters were tied into a friggin children's book meant to promote a series of video games. That he invested that much of himself and his life into a Sonic comic is just troubling. Like oh my God man, you really think these fictional characters line up SO well to the people you know in real life? Despite most of them having few to no distinguishable traits or being memorable for all the wrong reasons? That's not profound, that's just tragic.

Not really. This apology is backhanded and passive aggressive at best. He's basically putting his characters on such a high pedestal and claiming they're SO personal to him, nobody could ever HOPE to approach them but him. That's not penance, that's self-congratulation and smugness.

He ain't falling into obscurity- he's already there. The only people who know about him are Sonic fans, and the newer ones are focused more on Sonic Mania and the IDW book, as is everyone else. He's not known for anything but Sonic, and Sonic fans at large absolutely hate him. He constantly touts the successes of people he knows in a vain effort to make himself seem more important, and that post there was done solely so he could rile up his remaining legitimate fans and pretend he still has some actual relevance in the scheme of things. Frankly, once this thread finally dies (which, given the likelihood he will never, ever release his stupid project, is gonna happen sooner rather than later), there will be virtually nothing about him... and this thread is practically a shrine to despising him and chronicling his various misdeeds.

Penders is in no position to complain about about this, and frankly I have a very hard time believing he actually says the crap he says online to people in real life. Let's recap Penders precise treatment of Flynn over the years. Penders has slammed Flynn for relying on characters he didn't made, but then gone around and slammed him for not using pre-existing characters more. He's repeatedly denigrated Flynn's run on the book while admitting he hasn't actually read any of it, while at the same time pointedly saying that if he were to ever return to the book he'd simply ignore everything and pick up where he left off. He constantly passively aggressively digs at Flynn on his twitter, often bringing him up out of the blue. When Archie lost the license, he could barely contain his glee at the fact that Flynn and all of Flynn's coworkers lost their jobs- while Flynn thanked his co-workers for their time together, all Penders could do was harp on them for not having a backup plan or some crap, in a rather staggering lack of empathy. Most damningly, he's even gone so far as to accuse Flynn of lifting ideas from him under the most flimsiest pretenses imaginable, and not once has he ever taken back or apologized for doing so. This man has consistently done nothing but spit bile towards Flynn, and while Flynn has consistently said all of zero about Penders as he tries to get on with his life. And you know, let's talk about those 'professionals' Penders professes to have so much 'respect' for. Actually, that's a lie- Penders doesn't really have much respect for anyone else who worked on the comic save for those people willing to enable him. Back when Mobius 25YL was happening, Bollers opined that 25YL was not THE future, but rather A future and one of many. Penders disagreed tremendously with this, and when Bollers brought this opinion to his forums, Penders repeatedly deleted the threads that contained the information while angrily decrying Bollers, and even going so far as accusing the man of trying to undermine him. Likewise, he's wholly dismissed Angelo DeCesare's contributions to the book while trying to claim sole responsibility for the Bunnie/Antoine ship that got started under DeCesare, calling him a small timer and even baselessly calling his work 'Furry Archie' while admitting to having never read any of it. And then of course there's the fact that he happily trash talks Ben Hurst, a dead man with no ability whatsoever to defend himself or talk back. Penders entitlement here in the face of everything last thing he's said and done is staggering, especially because if ANY person dared to treat him as he's treated others we would never hear the end of it. Flynn owes this man nothing- not courtesy, not politeness, and certainly not his attention. ESPECIALLY when, without getting into specifics, Penders own fanboys obnoxiously tag Flynn's name and Penders name in the same posts over and over and over again purely so they can either try and start something or just froth at the mouth over the fact that the franchise passed them by. THis entire display is as pathetic as it is disgusting.

Eh, this is a thread about ideas- throwing them out is entirely within the scope of things. I've actually entertained the idea myself from time to time- Eggman succeeding in conquering the Kingdom of Acorn and managing to imprison the King, with Sally gathering others to fight back and Sonic and co getting mixed up in things and helping them to overthrow Eggman's presence within the various Zones that comprise the Kingdom, before he can solidify his conquest and then have the resources he needs to spread out and conquer the rest of the planet. Heck, if it weren't for SEGA being completely hellbent against Sonic having any family (or even the hint of a backstory), I'd suggest using Chuck as the binding thread giving Sonic a particular urgency to rush there- namely the fact that he lives in the Kingdom of Acorn. Granted, the biggest challenge here would be the subject of Roboticization and how to handle Bunnie Rabbot. Roboticization has been hinted at but has yet to be explicitly shown as it is in the most recent games- we have Tails sabotaging the process in Lost World, and Eggman makes mention of a Robotomy treatment that sounds an awful lot like Roboticization proper, but then we still don't know if it properly works as Roboticization usually does or if its just "Badnikification". IF the process works like normal then we can use Bunnie as per normal, or at least something like her revised Reboot origin (which I wouldn't be entirely fond of since the indirectness of Eggman's role in her limbs causes her concept to lose something)... but then of course, a way will need to be found as to explain why Eggman won't be using this VERY handy enslavement technology in future game installments. If 'Roboticization' is just for making Badniks though, then we have to explain how and why Bunnie has robo-limbs, which either means disconnecting her origin entirely from Eggman and thus removing a great deal of her character, or having to envision that Eggy gruesomely experimented on her and pretty much mutilated her by removing limbs and replacing them with prosthetics... while I'd never advocate Eggman as being a softy even in the games (he IS the man willing to drown a city to get his way), I'm not sure this would really 'feel' right, nor would it fly with either SEGA or fans. And again, we could do as in the Reboot and suggest she was badly injured by falling debris and required emergency robot limbs afterward, but that still doesn't 'feel' right to me given that it makes Eggman only indirectly responsible for her condition.... but I suppose it would be better than him getting a sudden injection of Grimdark into his veins, heh. It's all quite a conundrum.... but its not exactly impossible. Though as you said... yeah, it might be best if they never appeared in the main games. I'd hate to see for so many characters I love to go through the usual SEGA practice of getting used once or twice and then discarded or banished to Olympic Game Limbo. In the most ideal of worlds, I would like it if Sonic was permitted to operate as franchises like the Ninja Turtles or Transformers do- with re-invention of pre-existing creations and concepts being permissible in new spinoffs, with a potential Satam/Archie based game being allowed its own mini-line much the way Boom was envisioned, or even being permitted to use things from Fleetway or Underground, or even Sonic X if it wanted. Granted, I doubt fans would be in the mood for anything like that given how dreadful Rise of Lyric was, and the perception of infusing it with a bit of Forces would likewise diminish people's willingness to give it a chance... but then, I am talking about the most ideal of worlds.

I'm of mixed feelings myself. In my heart of hearts, I'd rather love to see it. That being said, I've become kind of jaded towards SEGA and Sonic Team and their take on storytelling, and I'm not really sure I'd WANT to see a hypothetical Satam/Archie game to be handled by them at this point. In particular I feel the idea would be all the harder given the aftermath of Sonic Forces and Sonic Boom, with one sharing a similar premise and doing it badly while the other attempted to be a radically different take on the current games and wound up being a repeat of the Sonic 06 fiasco. Now, if I had reason to think SEGA/Sonic Team could do it and do it well? Then I'd say go for it. Likewise, I'm not opposed to show/comic exclusive characters being transferred into the main games either- I've always enjoyed the characters who appear in spinoff media, and I felt it was a shame that none of them were really permitted to make the jump. My biggest concern though would be the nature of the changes- one of the defining concepts for all the Freedom Fighters is that they are driven and defined by their lives being ruined by Robotnik, having lost their homes and families to him and being forced to grow up at a young age in order to retake their world. SEGA's storytelling priorities at this point doesn't really permit that much backstory in general, let alone any kind of close connection to Eggman or anyone else. Soo yeah. I'd honestly like to see it, but I'm not really certain of how workable it is at this point or if I would really trust SEGA/Sonic Team to do a good job.

They might not have clicked for you. They did so for others. I'm not fond of making a spectacle over something that happened half a decade ago, but I understand where it comes from. Just because it didn't exist for you doesn't mean it didn't exist for others.

A reply consisting of regurgitating information that is already generally known and then going on an unrelated, rambling tangent about advertising comics and the imminent death of the print format. Anyway, I say this as someone who'd been with the Archie comics for a loooong time and who was always more heavily into them and the various other bits of spinoff media, but dude... this song and dance has been done before. Many times. What happened wasn't right, nor was it fair, but fella... there comes a time when you have to accept that things happened as they happened and move on. I mean really, what do you expect Archie to do? Get on their knees each year and beg forgiveness, weepingly recounting the Great Tragedy of how their ineptitude allowed a self-serving spoiled brat of a putz like Penders to get anywhere in his inane lawsuit? They've moved on, as has SEGA. Wallowing in things like this isn't going to really help things at all- you're just picking at a wound and refusing to let it properly heal by this point.

Guys, cease, desist, zip it. How Penders' fans behave and their interactions with Ken is decidedly *not* within the purview of this thread. They are not to be discussed, mentioned, pointed out, or anything at all that involves them in this. This discussion is about 25YL and only that, so let's move away from the fanboy before this thread winds up derailed and locked.

Same difference. He's made claims like this before, multiple times, and has come up with squat, each and every time. There won't be a winter release, just like the last time there wasn't a winter release, or the summer release before that.

When will you learn that giving Penders ANY kind of benefit of the doubt is asking to be disappointed? Either way, not a whole lot to say. We've seen this song and dance before, and until something actually comes of it, all it amounts to is a lot of hot air.

Honestly, he's gone back and forth on the subject like, multiple times. I *think* he intends to start digital and go with a solid release later on down the road, but given how often his intended plan changes I'm not even sure anymore. Either way, not much else to do but sit back and see if he actually releases this or if it'll be yet another 'let people see it on MY phone/ipad' deal like its been the last few times.

Uuuh-huh. So then... when does the actual book come out? Like... all of this effort has been been made to the tie-in App, but we still don't have much of a clue as to where the proper book itself stands.