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Monkey Destruction Switch

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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Tara in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    I got around to watching the review myself and for the most part, I agree with his analysis on the gameplay (though I feel he sort of skimped on the story, presumably going in with a preexisting negative outlook on it; that's fine and all, but there's a notable minimalism to that aspect of his review).  What I mainly don't agree with is his bit about the Chao Garden and how it helped solidify a flawed image of the game's overall quality.
     
    I don't feel the Chao Garden had a huge impact on how we perceived the game's innate quality.  For one thing, certain animals were only available in certain levels.  As such, it was no less common for people to have to play the stages they didn't like over and over in order to get the animal they want.  Even if you ignored animals and farmed purely for Chaos Drives in the stages you like, chances are the sheer repetition would leave a sour taste in your mouth after awhile, which I feel it ultimately did at times.  Also, I believe (though I may be wrong) in the GameCube version, you didn't have to actually complete the stage in order to earn the animal.  That means provided that the animal appeared in the stage soon enough, all you had to do was retrieve the animal, exit the stage, and come back.  So really, for many animals you were barely even playing the actual stage.
     
    When I think of why Sonic Adventure 2 was considered such a good game in its time, the easiest explanation is just that standards were different then.  I didn't get to play the Chao Gardens as much as others since the game didn't technically belong to me at the time, but I liked main game quite a bit.  I still think the game is pretty okay, bugs and all, but in addition to innovations in gaming essentially leaving the game behind as well as having more mature sensibilities and experience with other games, it's easy to see its flaws and its age.  I think the Chao Gardens were an extension to what made the game such a memorable experience, but they certainly didn't undermine the weak points the game was notable for even back in the day. (Especially the terrible production values of the cutscenes)
     
    Of course, my experiences may be subjective, but I feel that while the Chao Gardens are a genuinely interesting inclusion to the game, they certainly aren't what stands out to me about the game.  For that matter, they certainly didn't muddy the impact of the game's flaws and weaker points.
     
    As an aside, another thing I do find interesting thing about his review is his explanation with the finals boss fight with Shadow.  He explains that it's essentially about using the Light Dash to attack Shadow when he's in the middle of a trail of rings.  While that's a strategy I always like employing, I always considered that to be a side strategy, not the main component.  I always thought the main strategy (the one the game wants you to employ) is to wait for Shadow to get ahead of you so he'll use his Chaos Sphere, at which point he will give you enough time to dodge the attack and land a Homing Attack on him.  That's the strategy that Omochao recommends, anyway.  He never mentions anything about the Light Dash strategy.  It's for that reason I honestly thought the character battles between Sonic and Shadow (and Rouge and Knuckles for similar reasons) to be perhaps the weakest part of the game aside from the more tedious Knuckles and Rouge stages.
     
    I mean, for all intents and purposes, I feel like the final Shadow and final Sonic fight should be fun.  It has the makings of a good boss fight:  An indirect objective, a concise weak spot, and employment of a clear strategy based on movement and exploitation of the characters' personality. (Note: What you find to be the makings of a good boss fight may vary) But something about the actual execution is just really terrible in my opinion.  Maybe it's because of the finicky homing attack which either never locks on or locks on so much that you have no control.  How many times have you tried to Homning Attack Shadow only to have Sonic just floating behind him for like five minutes before he does anything?  That happens to me virtually every time.
     
    Don't get me wrong, it's not a miserable boss fight.  It's an easy one, too, and doesn't really disappoint me by comparison to any of the other boss fights in the game.  Its just a really monotonous and poorly-programmed experience, in my opinion.  It is good for one thing, if nothing else, though:  Endless life farming!
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Ming Ming Hatsune in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    I remember when playing the HD port of this game, I spent 40 minutes on one Knuckles level going around in circles trying to find the pieces.

    So help me I'll slap the person who came up with that idea to ditch Adventure 1's treasure hunting by replacing this find one shard at the time thing.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Blue Blood in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    People have said that before. But it's not difficult to put another character in a another level, and Sonic and Shadow are compatible with each others stages and upgrades even. It doesn't lend an awful lot of credence to the argument.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to CrownSlayer’s Shadow in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    With Knuckles, he fared much better here than he has in other games after it due to him actually having some strong involvement and motivation that was unique only to him. 
     
    That's probably why we don't give him that much flak in SA2. Where as every other game he's been in just has him tag along for the hell of it, SA2 is where he had his own concerns to worry about that was intertwined with what everyone else was doing. Granted, it could be fleshed out more, but it's just something worth noting. We have yet to get any semblance of this from Knuckles anymore.
     
     
    And the reason I definitely don't agree with that is because that completely ignores that it was a matter of quality and handling that screwed it up than it was the number of times they tried following that path.
     
    And need I remind you that Heroes came right after this game and was rather incoherent and embarrassing storywise before we got the ilk that was ShTH and Sonic 06. So is not recreating SA2's darker feel that was the problem - it was the fact that they didn't know how to fucking write a decent plot anymore, tone be damned. And we've practically come full circle after arguably Unleashed (YMMV on Colors) which was the last game to have a well made plot while these lighthearted, more classic inspired plots suffer blunders themselves. Like we've been saying that for the longest, dude.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Bowbowis in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    Back on the topic of Knuckles' usefulness for a second.
     
    Eggman's line, "The prototype is still alive. He's become one with the colony and is determined to keep it on it's collision course." implies that Knuckles stopping the Emeralds did stop Gerald's program, and that's why the Biolizard merged with the colony in the first place, to ensure that the ARK still impacted the Earth like it was supposed to. So in short even if Knuckles didn't stop the ARK from falling he did stop the program that caused it to fall in the first place, thereby ensuring that the colony didn't just start falling again after Sonic and Shadow warped it back into orbit.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to azoo in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    I'm gonna say a thing that I'm not sure if many will agree with..
     
    I think SA2 was a neat experiment, making Sonic this somewhat darker thing with more depth in areas as well as a more realistic tinge than usual.. I'm getting the feeling that I wish it was just what it was: a 10th anniversary game. 
     
    So yeah, it was a cool idea going into a plot and general tone like that for one game. But I feel like Sega attempting to follow that path and trying to up the ante in that direction from there-on kind of ruined them. They kept trying to do it more and more to the point of becoming extremely embarrassing, and in the end their failure to recapture the same sense of tension or scale SA2 had in what kind of story it told just led them to believe that they shouldn't really try with stories anymore at all.
     
    If we could've had SA2's whole feel be a one-time-only kind of thing and instead followed a more classic / SA1-ish inspired path for story telling, art style and game design then I think things would've fared much better.
     
    But of course, money talks.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Nepenthe in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    To be fair, she was never really included in any of the plans. She tagged along on her own accord, which I feel speaks more about her own desire to prove useful than anything (and she even relents how much of a burden she is regardless before deciding to confront Shadow). If Sonic and Tails aren't asking her to do anything, what was she supposed to do except try to keep up and hope for a task? Also, search the ARK for what? It's an abandoned space station with information that- even if recoverable- wasn't all that relevant to the business at hand.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Sean in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    For being a non-player character I thought Amy's role was fine. Not as memorable as what she did in SA1 for sure though, which I still think is the best she's ever been
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Kuzu in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    Its not much, but yea she did. Knuckles is kinda superfluous to the overall plot honestly. I was just so used to seeing him around, it actually never registered how useless he was lol.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Your Vest Friend in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    Thank goodness I'm not the only one who feels this way. Seriously, people like to cite this as one of his best outings and I just see it as one of the first that showcased his later flanderisation instead.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Blue Blood in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    I just mean it's a really silly circular conversation. That's all.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Penny in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    The only problem I had with the gun was: that shit is big, how the hell did he fit that in his pocket? That's not even really a problem, it's more a funny observation. I never found it too dark or anything.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Nepenthe in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    You would have to remove the scope (the biggest part of the gun no less)... and the random side plating, and the unnecessary red bits to actually get a realistic gun, in the same way that you would merely have to tone down the Egg Fighter's barrel without even having to touch the trigger and handle (I'm also not sure how you were able to determine proper proportions either in those screenshots? For one thing, that's still a big-ass handgun). Both are general mix of fantasy and realistic gun elements, and the point at which one is more serious than another, and subsequently the point at which one's supposed seriousness is out of bounds, has not been defined as anything other than wholly and entirely arbitrary.
     
    Your randomly graphic imagination isn't an argument regarding the rules that were actually set. For one, we already had someone shot in the game with what was actually a real gun and it was still presented in the most tame, Lion King-esque way possible so as not to upset the kids, so I'm not sure why you're making an exception for Eggman's gun in that particular situation. Second, he never shot it, so even despite knowing that the game already established that anyone shot in SA2's universe wouldn't ever have any blood on them anyway, you cannot make an objective argument for what the heck it actually shot in the first place. Third, the reason he never shot it was because he was never intending to shoot Amy, because there would be no benefit to enraging Sonic and Tails versus supposing enough power over Sonic to simply get him in the capsule in the first place. Replace it with some Duck Dodgers ray gun and it actually makes no difference on the situation's outcome and subsequently its tension, because the look of the gun was never the point. It was the ploy Eggman was creating and Amy's life being in danger regardless that was the point.
     
    You and others also keep positing that Eggman taking someone hostage is out of character. What contradiction or assertion from the word of God existed before Sonic Adventure 2 that would make such a maniacal, destructive, near-irredeemable psychopath honorable enough to never do that when the chips ever came down? What exists in Eggman's character to give him that kind of restraint? Heck, he was already insisted to be a manchild, and that is the last person I expect to have any kind of decency.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Sean in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    SA2's story isn't executed in an amazing way whatsoever especially if you look at it today, but I thought underneath all that awkward stuff, the actual plot was pretty good. Stakes were higher than past games' and even SA1's and the game made sure to get that across to the player, character motivations were explored well for the most part (Knuckles is an all-around useless contribution unfortunately), and events that led to another made things exciting to watch even if you had to fill in the blanks at some parts. I don't see anything about the story that makes it personally aggravating for me to watch.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Kuzu in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    Once again, its not a realistic looking gun, like at all :V
     
    Ya know what Eggman has also done? imprison sentient beings inside automatons and has implicitly turned the world into a mechanical hell if we're going by Sonic CD's Bad Future, that's perfectly fine and dandy. But oh, he finally takes the pragmatic approach and just gets down to the nitty gritty, and suddenly its too dark and he's become almost unrecognizable :V
     
    Its amazing how skewered his character has become ever since Colors and onward. What was once considered his most threatening and competent role is now considered "too dark and out of character", simply because his modern incarnation has absolved any sort of menace about him, which has made people reconsider how the character was established over a decade ago. I don't know whether I should be amazed by how quickly people change their perceptions on the cast honestly.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Nepenthe in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    A Shadow-colored handgun thingie with the scope twice the size of a barrel is not a realistic gun. Like, not even fucking close.
     
    Him taking Amy hostage doesn't also contradict anything he had done before either. Eggman has done some personal things to the cast himself. And once again, we're ignoring the probability that he was doing a power play versus being actually interested in killing her.
     
    I'm also not sure why everything Eggman uses has to look like it came from a Chuck E. Cheese to not be problematic. I feel like people operate on the assumption on anything that absolutely cannot be taken seriously at face value automatically needs to be taken seriously, and it needs to be taken seriously to the most ridiculous, Tom Clancy-esque extremes imaginable regardless of anything else surrounding the scene. Like, the moment you include the color black to more than 30%, it's like the "No Fun Allowed" Swatbots have arrived or something.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to The KKM in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    Does Bowser do so with an outright realistic-esque gun?
     
    The point isn't Eggman threatening. The point is he threatens with big cartoony animal robots or bizarre mechs. Even if he had just pointed the Egg Walker's turret at Amy, it'd flow better.
     
    Having him suddenly pull a handgun takes it to a sudden level of personal he never does. It's him getting his hands dirty in a way we recognize outside the rules of cartoon world. I've used this example before- Wily has killed millions implicitly, but thematically it's not the same as having him suddenly pull a glock and aim at Light's head. There's a reason why when he does this with a laser gun in Lost World, no-one complained.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Nepenthe in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    I don't feel Eggman had any kind of established character before the Adventures to compare it and determine whether or not he was off-character; if anything I think we're all subconsciously aware of his more current characterization and how toned down it is as we talk about this. But during the classic era? What was actually there for an American consumer to make the distinction that "Yeah, he'll set fire to places and electrocute people, but holding someone hostage is just waaaay too far"? We already had media characterizing him as some unflinching incarnate of pure evil, media at the time that was given more credit and actually considered awesome for its darker elements (how times have changed), and the OVA- while funnier- had him taking the president and his daughter hostage anyway. Without this consistency of character beforehand, there was no definition of Eggman to compare later events to.
     
    So the Adventures to me actually solidified the cast into the characters I know today and have an idea of. And in those games we had had seen him willing to shoot Sonic and Tails down, to gas them, to dismantle arguably sentient beings, to throw Amy in a dank prison, and to invade and blow up places himself, including the moon. Eggman, at the time, was characterized as a person who would actually resort to underhanded tactics when the going got rough, and it didn't actually matter if people were collateral. To me, to say it's "too practical" to hold Amy at gunpoint is an argument of semantics heralding back to the awful space shuttle argument, which partly implied that things with which can occur in real life are just automatically darker or more mundane without actually being adequately proven as such (which I also felt was SA2's interpretation of the character being judged subconsciously against later and thus irrelevant characterizations. Eggman wasn't always like his Boom incarnate in every piece of media and no amount of drudging up that silly concept art will actually change the end results). That, and it ignores a lot of the context of the scene anyway, both the fact that he probably never intended to shoot her because then how in the world do you actually contain an enraged Sonic, and also the fact that right after Sonic is captured they insert a little facepalm-worthy joke at Tails' expense anyway to add some moment of levity.
     
    In short, I think people just have a habit of claiming everything that's even sorta kinda real or relatable is just automatically way too dark and heavy for the franchise without actually considering further context or even taking the time to establish a consistent argument on why that is. I'd much rather we hash out the specifics of this, particularly against other cartoons of similar tone and magnitude where we can directly compare such situations, than making assumptions that seem to drive the implication that the only way to tell an appropriate Sonic story is if we ram the tongue through the cheek.
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Sami in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    He blows up the fucking moon without blinking and tries to bomb an entire city full of millions of people, but pointing a gun at someone is too dark for him?
     
    ... What?
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    Monkey Destruction Switch reacted to Sami in ProJared reviews Sonic Adventure 2   
    I actually wish we could see Eggman butt heads with an adversary other than Sonic, who obviously has to win because he's the hero. It'd make a big difference in audience perception if we were to see him do something as simple as completely school GUN in a game of wits or even outright firepower and mechanics.
     
    An example off the top of my head: We get all these big setpieces, but nothing that really shows Eggman's capability as a villain directly. What if during the GUN Truck chase, a mech similar to the Death Egg Robot or Lost World's final boss were to fly in (for added effect you could vaguely see his silhouette flying around at different points in the level) and outright punch the truck off its tracks effortlessly, and moving in to ramp up the difficulty and mix up the setpiece with new attacks like lasers and shit changing the terrain and complicating things for Sonic. 
     
    Pretty basic idea. Woulda been cool. Kind of wish we could see stuff like that from him instead of only really seeing piss easy bosses every hour or so. 
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