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Everything posted by Lord-Dreamerz

  1. Already excited for the next Sonic-Movie! Crossing my fingers Metal-Sonic shows up in it! There is actually a fair chance for it too considering if they are treating this movie as a Sonic 2 equivalent, they would probably choose him to take the place of Silver-Sonic for obvious reasons... especially if they end up trying to combine Sonic-2 & CD as single base to work from I could see that happening.

  2. Very happy to hear they are working on the 2nd movie so soon! Hopefully We get to see Jim actually look like Robotnik for the entire next movie, I read Jim is even willing to wear a fat suit next time! Personally i hope Metal-Sonic & Amy show up on the next movie along with Tails, I could easily see them combining the Sonic-2 & CD cast for the 2nd movie. I feel they should save Knuckles for a 3rd possible movie considering the whole echidna tribe stuff might be enough to take up most of a movie on it's own. As s side note: i don't really want the whole 2nd movie simply including Tails as the only new character... would be pretty dull to me if that was all they did.
  3. Wow! This is looking to be quite the awesome classic Sonic fan game! Especially act 2 ramps up the heat.


    1. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      It was all going so well until I heard that 1up jingle. What the hell is that noise?

      Looks like a solid fan game all in all. I might check it out sometime.

    2. Balding Spider

      Balding Spider

      Reminded of Gunstar Heroes with the bosses.

    3. Lord-Dreamerz


      Reading a review & checking it on the video again, there does seem to be problems with the running physics. hopefully that gets fixed in later versions.

    4. Supah Berry

      Supah Berry

      So this takes place after Chaotix's bad ending? (And the US manual canon too apparently)

      It's now my headcanon that this is all canon and it'll turn out the Classic-verse Chaotix had been killed, and that's why only the Modern versions show up anymore. 

    5. neezTHEhuman


      This certainly earned my interest, will give it a try.

    6. Cayenne


      Those boss battles and special effects are awakening the Sega Genesis and Treasure fangirl inside me. Looks pretty good!

      @Blue BloodIt's the Stage Clear jingle from the first Jumping Flash! on the PlayStation:


  4. 1:50 Sonic the blue blob.


  5. Whenever I see Tangle & Whisper... I really wanna play as them in a game! Not sure what style of gameplay however... Hmm maybe in a RPG.

    1. Maxtiis


      I could see Tangle using her tail akin to the ring from Knuckles Chaotix where she grabs the ground, wall, or a ledge to rubber band her way to top speed.

      Whisper could use the recoil from her gun to immediately alter her momentum, take out enemies (have it so she has Amy's inability to curl into a ball from Advance to encourage this), and get extra distance out of jumps for maybe one shot. Think rocket jumping from fps games.

  6. Sticks was my favorite part of Boom. Loved her character design, also liked the concept of a paranoid wild girl. I honestly relate to her in a certain number of ways. I didn't care for her US voice I gotta admit... but she sounded perfectly fine in a number of other languages. I hope they find a way to include a new version of her in the main series later. She would feel different! as the main games are not a pure comedy/sitcom which would result in her personality being altered little! but that is fine with me. I also enjoy Boom Dr.Eggman's design, he had a charming personality on Boom too! Sometimes I wish they would had kept his design and moved it over for the main series too, not the personality tho, as it doesn't fit for the main games obviously. I didn't think the TV show was great however, found the stories boring normally, and rarely found it super funny despite it badly trying to be. But It did have moments that were great to me I will say! Part of me still wishes Blaze would had appeared on the show... would had been interesting to see a Boom design for her, and the show having a princess character to play off from could had quite some funny possibilities.
  7. My opinion is ranking systems are fine & fun in their own right... but there should always be a separate mode/option to turn it off for when you just wanna explore or goof-off, plus the level death timer should be removed in those cases too. I also agree with thinking the characters should react in more fun ways to how you play during the levels.
  8. I wonder which Sonic character has the most widely used memes? I can't be sure, but Knuckles might be the winner. At least the following 3 Knuckles memes below i see often, even on non-Sonic related content.

    #1: Oh No! (Knuckles sound clip, also referenced by purely text too.)

    #2: & Knuckles. (Added randomly to the end of a joke line.)

    #3: Do you know de way?

    1. Teoskaven


      Easily Eggman if we count the different incarnations.

    2. KHCast


      Knuckles definitely. He just recently got the “meme” meme as well

  9. I prefer them being merely different art styles of the same characters, so I will support/defend the idea of the classic style now being from a alternate universe/dimension sooner then I will changing them into "kid" versions of the cast... which never made any logic after you consider Classic Eggman anyways. I would higher prefer it to not be either, and for the company to just use whichever art style for the cast whenever it fits each title well... but I'll settle on alternate dimension between the ideas. Also I still stand by my opinion I had all those years ago when Generations came out, with the game being literal when it said that Classic Sonic was the past version of Sonic "AKA Sonic from the 90s" meaning it was meta humor and the game wasn't meant to be took super seriously.
  10. Yes it is a minor problem when fans randomly decide they can retcon a different art style for characters into younger or whatever versions just as a pointless attempt to force a fan canon that isn't real. Especially when some fans (not all mind you) wave around these ideas as facts and get upset when others disagree or the games don't support their fan ideas later on. Look no farther then Sonic Forces release year where number of fans got upset over Classic Sonic now being counted as alternate dimension Sonic instead of what they thought it was before. Again it is kinda absurd to me when some fans say they hate the retcon of classic characters now being from a alternate dimension, but they were ok with the fan idea of a retcon that makes a different art style of the cast into younger versions of the modern cast.
  11. The series doesn't have to many characters, as many said before Sonic Team just doesn't know how to handle most of them correctly. Majority of any adventure series will have lots of side characters over time as exploring new places & meeting new faces along the way is more then normal and to be expected. Honestly a fact is that it can hard to sell/market a long running series if nothing new & exciting stands from each new title. Adding new interesting characters is a nice quick method to make a new title more flashy to the general public.
  12. What non-bad Sonic character would you enjoy seeing be made a villain in a game for whatever reason? Can be temporally evil or even some kind of alternate evil version of a character.

    1. Diogenes


      ehhh i can't really think of any that i'd like them to actually attempt, sonic characters don't have much moral ambiguity and "evil dimension" plots are kinda dull.

      i did once come up with a deliberately grimdark "bad future" concept where every hero besides sonic (because he got thrown forward in time) went evil(ish) though. they all mirrored the villain most closely related to them; tails became a mad scientist like eggman, amy turned her obsession to metal sonic and so had tails make her a cyborg to get close to him, knuckles fused with chaos and told everyone to fuck off his island under penalty of death...that's about as far as i got before getting bored. it's more trashy fanfic material than something i'd actually want to see out of the series.

    2. Tornado


      Radical edgy teenage Cream with a gun.

    3. Waveshocker Sigma

      Waveshocker Sigma


      But it's Venice instead.


      He'll probably end up still being cooler and more likable.


  13. If all the E-Series robots had tiny animals inside them... does that mean Omega had one too at some point?... Well probably not a living one anybody after all the time which has passed. xD

    1. SenEDDtor Missile

      SenEDDtor Missile

      Hard to say really; Omega's nature is never exactly elaborated on.

      Given how Eggman shifted away from using animals as batteries for a while starting Sonic Heroes until relatively recently, Omega might just be using Chaos Drives/whatever fancy batteries Eggman developed.

  14. Reaction: In official story telling Sonic characters are now allowed to die without much limit... But characters having extra lives they can collect is also story canon.

    1. PaulyBFromDa303


      Makes sense to me. I mean, that's how it is in the game

    2. Monkey Destruction Switch

      Monkey Destruction Switch

      Will take some getting used to, but it could work. I'm actually considering doing this in my own Sonic AU.

    3. dbzfan7


      Tails is immortal though, he doesn't need peasant extra lives.

  15. I always HATED when SEGA tries going into a fairly more realistic art style for Sonic. And no, when I say realistic... that does not mean I am against stuff like fantasy/scifi style cities or locations loosely based on real life... I have no idea why I need to make that part clear? but enough people over-time don't seem to really understand what I mean when I say realism. Also yes I will outright say that throwing Sonic into a realistic style world to the point the character cast almost looks as if somebody photo-shopped a cartoon character on-top of a real life photo... is a bloody terrible art choice for almost any cartoon style series, Sonic not excluded. I DO NOT CARE about the fact Sonic has done realistic style settings to various degrees before! even if it was something far back as the 90s, I still will say I did not like it even in that case. Something merely existing does not make it acceptable to me. Personally my ideal art style for 3D Sonic media would be something between Sonic Lost World or CD & Generations... and no! Sonic-Forces does not count. BTW Star Light Zone is still super stylistic + fantasy enough, same can be said for Carnival Night Zone. Stuff like that is perfectly fine and is not included when I saying ugly realistic styles. Look no farther then Sonic-06 which can burn in hell, the locations or the humans themselves... it was all bad. Admittedly I did enjoy the Sonic Movie as it's own separate thing... but I NEVER want that nonsense for the main part of the franchise, EVER. On another note: I didn't like half of the locations in Sonic Unleashed either as a few didn't feel stylized enough to fit in with Sonic I say. Far as desirable human styles? I still believe they should go with a combo of Billy Hatcher & Unleashed style humans. Whatever just as long they don't look realistic or from a completely different style altogether.
  16. And I want people to stop making "Sonic & Eggman only" topics. But we can't always get what we want! Hahaa! Seriously tho there is no appeal to the whole Sonic only thing. It is boring/lame and nothing else. I want to see the company start using the other characters in more meaningful ways, not less. I am dead tired of all these only Sonic is playable games... and no, the avatar character & multiple versions of Sonic was not a fix, it was poorly side stepping the problem.
  17. They are all canon... within themselves, not together as one story. Forcing them into one story-line is fanfic level nonsense and doesn't change the real franchise itself. I understand many fans love the idea of a single canon, I too like that idea. but it is impossible with what currently exists. And really it isn't needed.
  18. It is absurd to me when certain fans try to force the idea that Classic Sonic is "child Sonic" and that Boom Sonic is "Adult Sonic" ... do some people not understand what a art style is? All 3 versions of Sonic are roughly the exact same age in canon, AKA classic Sonic is also 15... they are simply different art styles/designs for the same character. I do not like the idea of trying to force them into a single timeline canon! it just doesn't work and never was appealing. I also think many fans misunderstood Sonic Generations when they try to use it as a argument for why they think Classic Sonic is a kid Sonic... however the game never actually called him younger or a kid, it simply said it was Sonic from the past, which probably meant it was literally Sonic from the 90s. I still think it was merely meta humor that many fans refused to view it that way. I mean come on, just look at the other characters across the 2 styles... how do you explain classic Eggman being shorter then modern Eggman? it is a art style difference and nothing more I say. PS: I am aware the OP is more worried about connecting the series together and not the ages of the characters. But I still don't see the appeal or agree with trying to force all versions of the Sonic series into a single canon, especially not Sonic Boom which is a alternate universe by SEGA's own statements.
  19. Didn't think I was going to like this video before watching it. But i actually agree with the mass of what he says. I too feel MetalSonic was mistreated & has room to be far more epic then given credit to.

    However the video's points about the character being used poorly may not be saying much, as the same can be said for most characters in this franchise.


    1. JosepHenry


      .... what?

      The 2010's were a fine year for Metal Sonic, in fact in his first appearance he just raced you and died

    2. Strickerx5


      Yeah, while In don't disagree with him, this is really just one of the many casualties in terms of character writing for the series. Remember having the same reaction to his Knuckles video (which made him sound really gd bias for the character when compared to everyone else but hey his opinion so whatevs).

    3. Lord-Dreamerz



      The video isn't talking about the number of times he appears in the series or not, it is about how his character is handled. The video also says the OVA was the best showcase for MetalSonic, and that even Sonic CD didn't use him the best they could had.

    4. Zaysho


      I'm not sure I totally agree with him being a joke, but I can at least see how Heroes could feel kind of diminishing to what he's supposed to be. Most non-game media treats and handles him much better, in particular both Archie and IDW. I kinda roll my eyes at complaints about characters oversaturating the franchise and edging out other characters when the problem is that Sonic Team's writing is about the same quality level as Mad Libs and they have a constant need to trot out everyone for fanservice rather than making a sensible narrative that can make better use of them; it's either everyone all the time or "back to basics" with Sonic, Tails, and Eggman and it's honestly fucking annoying.

    5. Lord-Dreamerz


      @Zaysho Yeah mainly the games is where the problem exists, the game devs rarely know what to do with the characters, like you said they either thoughtlessly toss everybody in for only lazy fan service... or boringly default back to the basic few. Neither direction is fixing the core problem.

  20. What if SEGA said: (We will have our studios make you the best 3D Sonic game ever… but only if you can accept Robotnik wearing just a Speedo for the whole game. Deal or no deal?)

    1. Strickerx5


      implying that it wouldn't be the actual reason for it being the best 3d sonic game ever

    2. Wrapped in Black

      Wrapped in Black

      Only if he twerks

    3. Bowbowis
  21. I noticed over time on certain game series fans will get upset when a series reuses their locations often instead of those series inventing 100% new locations to explore for each new game title… And while sometimes I can understand + agree with the complaints... except other times depending on the game in question I feel those peps just want change for the sake of change and desire a false sense of series evolution with them not understanding the value of a series just telling more stories simply expending on it’s current concepts. Sonic is a example of the complaints being fairly understandable typically because the locations themselves have barely ever mattered much in the series lore. Not all series are the same however.

    As somebody who is working on a lore heavy adventure series I would hate to see any sequels to my future series getting hit on by others for simply reusing locations & other ideas when it is all by design meant to happen. My goal isn’t about trying to evolve each new entry from the previous games, that isn’t why I make this stuff. My true goal is simply to continue the worlds I have set up… also natural expansion/evolution of concepts will still happen regardless as I have nearly endless ideas to try out. But I won’t change everything again & again for no good reason.

    1. JezMM


      I think it depends on your goals for the narrative. In Matthewmatosis' critique of Breath of the Wild he mentions that the mystique of the wide open Hyrule doesn't QUITE live up to it's potential thanks to the setting and it's re-use of the usual races.  He mentions, for example, how as soon as you see Death Mountain on the horizon, some of the mystery is gone - you know exactly who you're gonna meet if you climb up there and what kind of society the people living there will have.

      If such expectations sound like a detriment to the experience you want to give the audience, then yeah, it's something to consider when choosing to make a new setting or reuse an established one.

    2. Lord-Dreamerz



      I think it would be stranger if there was no familiar locations & other concepts on BOTW unless it was all meant to take place on a completely different world or wherever, which it wasn't.

      However unlike Zelda... my characters won’t be new re-incarnations each game, as they will fellow continued stories and a consistent universe/lore. Not that I am worrying crazy about what others will think, because obviously I will do what I want in the end as my stuff is made for myself first before anybody else. However doesn’t mean I won't still consider these thoughts.

      For a reused location example there will be multiple times the main characters will revisit a machine type kingdom across the series as it is the home of a very focused on reoccurring main character.

  22. Lego Mario's interactive figure is such a strange unusual figure for Lego sets... However it is still a fun & interesting idea.



    1. Stay at Home Ultima

      Stay at Home Ultima

      I liked how the sound effects were to the tune of the theme in the beginning

    2. Supah Berry

      Supah Berry


  23. As much fun folks are having with the new Sonic Movie... even I enjoyed it enough. But I really hope this doesn't strongly influence SEGA & the Sonic fanbase to desire realistic world settings for the series again...

    As a huge fan & advocator of surreal fantasy worlds I typically loathe super realistic world settings in fiction. You'll never convince me watching Sonic & gang run across new-york or some random real life forest is a cool thing to see.

    1. Show previous comments  2 more
    2. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      I'm terms of the realism of the environments, Unleashed is just as realistic as 06. 06 went for a lot of greys and browns though, whilst Unleashed was much more vibrant. Compare the appearance of Spagonia and Soleanna, both based on Italian cities, to see the difference. 

      I personally don't mind seeing Sonic games set in either realistic or fantastic locations. SA1 gets it right by blending both seamlessly. Generations too, but that's somewhat of a exceptional case because of the premise of the game. Forces kind of tried, but erred too much into the cartoony territory with its artstyle.

    3. Wrapped in Black

      Wrapped in Black

      There are more games where Sonic is in grounded environments than not. 

    4. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      @Wraith That's true, but there are also more Sonic games that are bad than not so that's not the best argument in favour of something.

    5. Wrapped in Black

      Wrapped in Black

      How many of them are bad because Yuji Naka felt inspired by real world locales?

    6. Lord-Dreamerz


      I didn't really like station square from Sonic Adventure either. Just because the series has done a lot of it... doesn't mean i like it.

    7. Tracker_TD


      I think a balance is fine. Like I love the bizarrely Virtua Racing inspired trees of Green Hill (which SEGA have consistently missed the point of anyway), but I'm fine with stuff like Carnival Night too. 

      Some of my favourite Sonic levels are the ones where they take a grounded concept (a theme park/speedway) and just make it look damn pretty (Stardust Speedway). I'd love to see a proper ski resort level in Sonic someday... 

    8. Lord-Dreamerz


      @Tracker_TD I'm not sure those examples count tho? They may had took real life concepts as a base. But they twist it and add so much artsy style on it to the point it becomes surreal fantasy which i liked. I LOVE zones like Stardust Speedway.

    9. Wrapped in Black

      Wrapped in Black

      I'm not here to argue against people's tastes. More to suggest that Something thats always been a part of the series identity is probably going to stay 

    10. Tracker_TD


      I don't think Adventure moves far away from that either. It's a grassy valley... but still has floating railroads and stuff that don't look too far removed from NiGHTS. Same deal with stuff like Twinkle Park - it's technically a theme park, but I don't think I've ever been to a theme park that looks like it's perpetually in space. It's kind of a similar deal to Soft Museum, also from NiGHTS. 

    11. Lord-Dreamerz


      @Tracker_TD I don't dislike all the zones from Sonic Adventure. I mostly didn't like station square or the style of the mystic ruins hub world. Even Sonic Adventure 2 had some zones I enjoyed... only about half of them however.

    12. Soniman


      I quite enjoy when Sonic goes realistic or at least he's in highly exaggerated Sonic'd up versions of the real world. Feel like the Advance games, Unleashed, Battle and SA1 struck a good balance. SA2 errs a bit to hard on the realistic side (though it balanced out a bit more once you get to the Desert/Ark areas) and 06 just pile drives the concept to shit.

      It's always funny when people go LAWL SONIC IN THE REAL WORLD when really the franchise has just always been like that 

    13. Lord-Dreamerz


      @Soniman Again it having always been something SEGA has played with to some degree doesn't mean automatically everybody like me is fine with it whenever they did it. So maybe stop assuming folk like me are blind or some other nonsense.

    14. Blue Blood

      Blue Blood

      @SonimanSA2 always felt a bit... Gritty? Not in the "dark and gritty" but like... visually gritty. The game was hyper detailed in the wrong places. Is that what you're getting at? Compared to say SA1 and Unleashed that feel much cleaner.

    15. Soniman


      @Lord-Dreamerz.....I wasn't talking about you more refering to the general casual audiences who is predidposed to see Sonic as dumb anyway getting bent out of shape whenever Sonic talk to a human person 

      @Blue Blood

      Kinda? It just feels like SA2 doesn't do enough to really EXAGGERATE the realistic locations and they're played fairly straight with down to earth design and art direction. Like Metal Harbor could be from a Armored Core game and you probably couldn't tell it was Sonic if you removed the rings and springs. Like you said it's very detailed but not in a way that really fits the usual Sonic-y look

    16. JosepHenry


      3D Sonic artstyle should just do what Heroes did and run with it. Heroes had the best 3D artstyle imo, It had a perfect mix of real and fantasy without being jarring.




      Like, yeah this is Sonic's world no doubt.

      Just... don't give me square trees ever again and im good. I also would hate if Sonic's world just turned into plastic. (It already kinda did with lost world and forces) Like, wall cracks, old looking metal, actual grass and more realistic clouds honestly give life to the world to me, it just needs to be balanced properly, which SA2 kinda did too much.


    17. Lord-Dreamerz


      @Soniman Do much people really get upset over Sonic talking to humans altogether tho? I thought like me most folks just mainly didn't like it when Sonic talks to humans that are in totally different art styles, like from Sonic Adventure or 06 or even Sonic X to some degree. It didn't feel nearly as strange on Sonic Unleashed when the humans were slightly more on style to Sonic even if not perfect... as a side note it was still odd we didn't see animal-people NPCs on Unleashed along with the humans IMO.

      @JosepHenry I mostly agree with you about Sonic Heroes. But i don't see the problem with the concept of square artsy trees long as it is done decently. Sonic Forces & Lost World just didn't accomplish their ideas the best.

    18. JosepHenry


      The square trees are like geometric shapes put together without any thinking and completely missing the point of surrealism that Sonic CD did. It is basically insulting to that art style.  Sonic CD while very surreal, it felt alive you know. Sonic's world in Lost World and Forces looks made of plastic toy, and I absolutely want none of that. I hate what Lost World did to the Sonic art style, so I'm very glad the person who worked in Heroes design planner is back as a art director. 

      My point is, a bit of realism is good lmao

    19. Lord-Dreamerz



      I think Sonic CD was a far better version of what Lost World was trying to do i agree. However I still liked Lost World enough despite wanting to see them try a style more in between Lost World & Unleashed, which even Forces didn't do correctly. Anywayz a little realism is not the problem, the real problem which was the point of my first post here was me saying I hope SEGA doesn't go get super influenced by the degree of realism from the Sonic Movie just because it was successful. We know they have had interest in that idea far back as Sonic 06... so I wouldn't put it pass them to wanna try it again.

    20. JosepHenry


      I have no issue in them trying to make something more realistic as long as it looks like something from Sonics world, Colors was kinda very.... realistic textured but it was also surreal and beautiful, faithful to what Heroes did.

      But honestly, I dont hate eeeverything Sonic 06 did, I think Kingdom Valley is beautiful and also quite fantastic/surreal looking, specially the mach speed section. The rest can go away though.

    21. Kuzu


      Sure is divisive up in here...


      I'm just gonna cop out and say I don't really have a preference as long as it looks good; Sonic's been everywhere at this point, and most locales tend to be photo realistic anyway. 

      It definitely leans more on the realistic part with Modern Sonic tho than Classic however. Especially with SA2. Not that modern can't do surreal, but it does tend to clash with the identity its built up starting in Adventure.

    22. Wrapped in Black

      Wrapped in Black

      The classic Sonic games use fairly grounded realistic texturing and Sonic 3 especially is careful to avoid the floating platform thing

    23. Kuzu


      Yea, but then there's Sonic CD.

    24. Wrapped in Black

      Wrapped in Black

      Which takes place on another planet 

    25. Kuzu



    26. CrownSlayer’s Shadow

      CrownSlayer’s Shadow

      Honestly, this skewing of aesthetics as either one side or another is really getting old.

      Even with preferences, it’s not like surreal locations are being shunned any more than the realistic looking ones.

  24. Do you still ever use discord? i never see you on it.

    1. Sonic Fan J

      Sonic Fan J

      I pop on once in a while, but it really eats my computers RAM for some reason and slows everything down. I won't really be able to get on anytime soon this morning as I'm still catching up on everything I missed online these last couple of days and will be spending a couple of hours studying Japanese. The Japanese has really turned into a time eater though as trying to learn and practice writing kanji just takes for ever. If I can though I'll try to get on again this week, hopefully.

    2. Lord-Dreamerz


      Ok long as you still use it sometimes then I know sooner or later you'll see my messages there just fine.

    3. Sonic Fan J

      Sonic Fan J

      I'm sure I have a lot to catch up with you there too. Every since I finally started working full time and trying to learn Japanese my time has gone out the window. Even having time to draw any more is rare.

    4. Lord-Dreamerz


      Learning to do almost anything and most projects in general takes a long time. don't worry about it, you will find time again for other things later on. I've been working on 3 different big projects myself lately.

  25. Yo! I am back! I took some time away from this forum to work on few different projects and to avoid movie spoilers. I watched the Sonic Movie twice last month with the 2nd time being on my birthday. Gotta say I really enjoyed it! Was one of those big life fulfilling moments for me personally to watch a Sonic Movie in the theaters. While the movie was still not my ideal choice for a Sonic Movie concept... but It still turned out really decent! Overall I would give it a 7.5 outta 10. It indeed was a generic movie story... regardless while the story was nothing special, they still managed to make it entertaining! The final design for Sonic TRULY did help. The best characters from the movie were obviously Sonic & Robotnik... the other cast of human characters were not fun/interesting even if also not being horrible either. The Sonic OVA Movie is still my favorite movie for this franchise however... hopefully someday we can still get a fully animated 2D or 3D movie that takes place in a amazing Sonic feeling fantasy world. For now however I will be actually looking forward to the sequel for this current movie and hope it ends up good again, if not even great somehow!
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