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  1. By now it's no secret to most people here that after the back-to-back wipeouts that were Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06, Sonic Team decided to burn off a lot of what had characterized the Adventure era, with some of the Classic era being caught in the crossfire. While they would continue to experiment with ways to pad out the games--an unfortunate necessity when your character moves so much faster than most others--and some things, like more in-depth combat, stuck around a bit longer, in many other aspects, like Eggman being a genuinely scary threat and other characters than Sonic being playable in the main games, the Adventure era was dead. Many have alleged that Sonic Forces was Sonic Team attempting to return to the Adventure formula, and I say "alleged" because none have provided any links to them saying that was the case. Unless someone makes an argument, I'm going to assume they're trying to make sense of it coming out shortly after fans pleaded for another Adventure-like game; as if when some people see two dots they are tempted to draw lines between them. Whatever is the case, it clearly did not end up like another Adventure game. But instead of debating over whether Sonic Team was trying to return to that style of game, let's imagine an alternate timeline wherein they never left. Let's add the assumption that Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 were still in that timeline more-or-less the same games as in this one, with the possible exception of 06 being better enough that it didn't scare them away from the formula. I think this would have given SEGA a lot more to work with by the time they decided to do Sonic Forces, and as a result, it, too, would have turned out much better. To explain why, I think it's important to consider why Forces was not good, and while the game does have some mechanical issues, it's bigger problems are conceptual. Not that the idea of Robotnik conquering the world and Sonic joining a resistance against him is innately bad; it was well-received by many fans when it was used as the premise of a cartoon and it's also been fairly well-received when revived by Ian Flynn in the IDW series. But the decision to make this another boost formula game made Sonic Team unwilling to include gameplay that fit that plot. For starters, what do you expect from a plot about freedom fighters taking on a dictator with so much more military power than they have? Lots of fighting, and fighting so intense that every victory the rebels get feels like it was only just achieved, maybe at great cost. But because Sonic Team didn't want to compromise the breezy integrity of the Boost games, what we got was just more instances of Modern Sonic effortlessly boosting his way through lines of enemies, and even when you're not him, that same philosophy of utterly weak enemies still applies with the rookie's flamethrower or Classic Sonic's rolling. This gameplay isn't just inappropriate for the vibe the scenario warranted; it's actually a gaping plothole that a genius smart enough to build an army of robots and then command them to conquer the world just clusters them close together to make it easier to take down a whole bunch at once. If Eggman had it all his own way he would have managed to build robots that don't go down in one hit, but once he learned they did, he at least should have tried to compensate by spreading them out so while their opponents are destroying one, another is shooting them from a safer position. But no; we got utter pushovers of mooks and a worthless brigade of Death Egg Robots that do nothing but dance around in the background. But in the Adventure era, at least post-Dreamcast, Sonic Team wasn't afraid to incorporate more involved combat. Enemies had actual lifebars, they actually impeded the players, forcing them to fight, and in some cases defeating enemies was specifically the goal. As it happens, the impetus for me making this thread was considering how pathetically out-of-it Sonic Team would have to be to want to make another Sonic game reminiscent of Shadow the Hedgehog instead of finally letting Tails and Knuckles back in as playable characters, but on thinking that, it dawned on me that even more pathetic is how Shadow the Hedgehog did it so much better. Not that Shadow did it great, by any means. I consider its combat loads better than Sonic Heroes for its relative lack of moves that throw you off a cliff alone, but still, task a company with incorporating guns into a series whose first game actually tried and rejected projectiles since they would get in the way of speed-centric gameplay, and it's no surprise that the results would leave something to be desired. The way they structured the game also didn't often let the gunplay be as fun as might have been, and that's largely because of how they had to fit into the framework of multiple missions and a morality system often based on whom you choose to attack. So we got a lot of dull search-and-destroy missions where finding enemies was usually more difficult than fighting them once found, whereas what makes better gun games fun is having almost overwhelming enemies come to you and tasking you with just surviving. Then of course, there was the absurdity of seeing Shadow use guns; it felt like it didn't fit for the supposed Ultimate Lifeform (or at least one of several) who already had Chaos Sphere to pick up guns; as if the only reason he was doing it was because guns were "cool" at the time. However, perhaps the missing ingredient was guerilla warfare all along. Let's work backwards from last point by putting the Rookie from Sonic Forces in the role Shadow had. If Shadow using guns inevitably looks forced because he's already an innately powerful living weapon, with someone who is just a random, physically unremarkable civie who was forced into a conflict against a far more powerful enemy, picking up a gun and blazing away for dear life makes complete sense. A plot about guerilla warfare is also that Goldilocks zone where the combination of running fast and wielding guns can form good gameplay, because instead of dull search-and-destroy missions you could get exciting hit-and-run missions. Instead of the difficulty being from finding where the Hell what you're supposed to destroy even is, you could be told exactly where but then be tasked with weaving/shooting your way through the many enemies on the way, and instead of winning the moment you destroy your target, you could also be required to get back out alive, which would likely entail more running and more gunning. Now let's go into another aspect of the Adventure era, and unlike the more involved combat, this one was there for its entirety: Multiple playable characters. The reason the "Freedom Fighters" plot worked so much better in animated and pictorial panel (often incorrectly called "comic") form is it could heavily involve characters other than Sonic. If the focus was only ever on Sonic doing his thing running through and past things at high speed, you'd never really develop an empathy for anyone else, nor an appreciation for how much threat Robotnik's goons posed, but by giving more of the Freedom Fighters fleshed-out personalities, and abilities that were useful in their own ways, you came to appreciate them as a team who were all in this together. Even the ones who seemed mostly useless at least gave you some appreciation for what the stronger ones had to protect. At the time DIC explored that concept and then Archie continued it, the Sonic games weren't really in the right shape to match it; they still focused on playable characters who were built to go fast, and as such it would be hard to include the likes of Bunny and Sally in them; let alone what Rotor could possibly have done. But Sonic Adventure completely changed this. Suddenly, it was completely viable to have other playable characters with other specialties, like being strong, wielding firearms, tracking things down and building machines. It didn't always work and sometimes whether or not it "worked" depended on how well it fit in with what people expected a Sonic game to be. When Sonic is so marketed around being fast that he'll visibly get impatient if made to stand still, putting in a character like Big the Cat will obviously breed resentment. On the other hand, other characters can seem gratuitous when you put them in a game like Sonic Heroes. While it's not automatically worse from their being in, that playing all of them through all of the same levels was required to beat the game gave them an association with monotony. Also, given that SH was marked as being more like Classic Sonic, except in 3D and with team play, they could have conveyed the entire gameplay formula of that game with Sonic, Tails and Knuckles, since they all had precedent for being fast, whereas while making Big the Cat run fast definitely makes him more fun, it also is so absurd that it begs the question of why he is even in the game. But had they not rejected all of the other playable characters and then approached Forces with the willingness to include them, they actually would be meeting the expectations that plot set. If they followed through with that plot's implications and made enemies tougher, we've already explained why the Rookie would be more fun, but let's look at another possibility that fits because the enemies are mostly robots: Sally Acorn or at least a character who could hack like her. On the assumption that we'd have already increased the game's emphasis on combat and instead of just speed, what if a character's gameplay involved hacking into a robot and remote-controlling it? We've seen this concept explored with positive results in the likes of Space Station Silicon Valley and Super Mario Odyssey, so it could be equally neat here. So would that make our alternate universe version of Sonic Forces everyone's cup of tea? Of course not. But if we've learned any harsh lesson over three decades of Sonic, it's that nothing involving Sonic is going to be everyone's cup of tea. Alas, this is because what from the get-go has always been Sonic's most exciting aspect, its speed, also makes it untenable to make a feature-length game unless some means of padding the experience out was used, and Sonic Team explored many means and many have their fans but also their haters. Alas, many in society also just flat-out hate Sonic, and sometimes this isn't even because they dislike Sonic's gameplay but just because hating Sonic is "cool", or at least it was until the movies became huge hits. So I say it's high time Sonic Team stops trying to make that elusive game that absolutely nobody will hate, because that's impossible, except maybe if the game is so unremarkable that nobody can muster so strong an emotion as hate. Perhaps lately, that has been exactly SEGA's actual strategy; keep Sonic running on fumes with releases that are never ambitious enough to crash and burn as spectacularly as the last few Adventure games did. But dammit, if only they just fixed that formula instead of replacing it, I maintain that Sonic Forces could have been something really special.
  2. We all know that Sonic Forces is a bad game. I myself have mentioned it sparingly during my other threads. It lacks emotion, the gameplay is either boring or broken, the climax sucked, it's bordering on false advertisement with Shadow and Chaos 0, it brought back Classic Sonic, and I don't even need to explain Tails. I don't like focusing on problems how ever, and I began to wonder. Is this another 06, another game with nigh endless potential, but no one able to draw it out. I began looking deeper, and for once, I didn't see the most disappointing Sonic game ever made. I saw a masterpiece. I want to see if anyone else can pull something great out of this dumpster fire. I am not going to share my idea until later, so I have a chance to see what other people can do with it. Thank you for reading.
  3. I have been seeing a lot of debate on how the Switch version of Sonic Frontiers should be handled, and I am worried about that as well, because the only current gen console I own is the Nintendo Switch, and a decent PC that can play Sonic Generations at 60 fps, 720p, low settings (shadows, and reflections), FXAA, and Vsinc. So for many others that don't have PC, or any other console than a Switch, then we are definitely worried as drastic changes might be imminent compared to the other versions. Or will all of this worrying go away if a cloud version is announced? What do you think will happen? And is there some hope? FH8dIMBakAEcfhO.jfif
  4. Title says it all.. (I haven’t played Shadow yet so I’m not including that in my list by you can) SA1 > Unleashed > Generations > SA2 > Heroes > Secret Rings > Colours > Lost World > 06 > 3D Blast > Black Knight > Forces
  5. Okay, ever since the release of forces everyone has been trying to explain why it was underwhelming, using lies such as the game being in development hell, the game being developed in one year, using the info about Sonic team staff leaving to work on nintendo (by the way most of those guys were field artists, of course some of them would go on to become producers and level designers but I have yet to see a sonic level designer credited to in a Mario game, feel free to point out one) I have been trying to find anymore info regarding the development of modern Sonic games, but so little has surface and a lot of it it's just opinionated pieces, the only reliable info I have found has been this: Famitsu interviews Sonic retro (it only documented on concept art, when it began development back in 2013 after lost world's released and the timeline of reveals) The only source people are using it's Resetera and Reddit which can be simplified as (My uncle works for nintendo). As I said most pieces I have found come from opinionated sources and the fact that the biggest archival Sonic site Retro has so little info makes me believe we know so little about forces development and everyone is just making things up, likely to paint Sonic team as this Saturday morning cartoon villain and the "fans" as the heroes, sounds stupid I know. If anyone has more info regarding the development of Sonic forces, share it but also make sure to put your sources it will become difficult to find sega devs coming forward as they can't share their identities
  6. I dont know about you but there have been some moments when i made the stupidest mistakes(screw-ups) and i always remember them afterward because of how much of an amutuer i was. One time i screwed up was when i was playing Ocarina Of Time at age 8. it was supposed to try to sneak into the castle and get in but i didnt know how i went to the side of the castle but i didnt pay any attention to it because of my little brain and pride. It took me 3 days to finally move that crate and boy did i feel stupid. So what moments in your life did you screw up and have a good laugh about it?
  7. Hi! I know this is a bit of a big first post, but this has been on my mind so much today and I just have to tell somebody about it. Since this place is all about Sonic, I figured I could post it here! The Chaos Emeralds are a huge part of Sonic the Hedgehog. The collection of colorful crystals have been in every single game since the original on the Sega Genesis. They’ve been everything from bonus secrets to find to day-saving macguffins, and have an uncountable amount of uses. They’re synonymous with the blue blur himself! Yet, they’re curiously absent in one of his more recent games. A game that could have been infinitely (ha) better if they had been included. And a game where their inclusion alone could have saved many a sour review. If the Chaos Emeralds were included in Sonic Forces, they would have made the game so much better. They have nostalgic appeal This is a bit of low hanging fruit, but it’s still important. The moments in Sonic Adventure 1-2 where you go super is a huge part of many a fan’s childhood. I don’t know how many drawings I’ve seen of people drawing their characters going super, or of super sonic himself. It’s something that’s stuck in a lot of fan’s minds! And those fans seem to be part of what Sonic Forces was trying to cater to. Those who love the sonic series so much they’ve made, and would be excited to play, as their own custom character! Because of this, including the ability to go super (possibly alongside sonic/your favorite character) would be incredible. It’d give so many fans the ability to live out a childhood fantasy, and it’d probably score some good vibes from the people who love it. And even if you aren’t a long-time fan of the series, who doesn’t love the idea of becoming all powerful and punting the villain into next week? Some might say it’d be hard to accommodate for all the fur colors the custom character could have, but there’s an easy solution. You could easily have it be that all super of a specific species (ie hedgehogs) were one color (ie yellow). It’s not uncommon for main characters to have their supers looks similar, so this isn’t too far fetched of an idea. 2. They’d be a great narrative through line. The story of Sonic Forces is kind of aimless. Nothing super exciting happens, there’s only one big battle at the end (which has no impact), and it’s just over. The story could have used something else, some other goal that the heroes could be striving for instead of just stopping Eggman. Maybe even something that could serve the aforementioned egg-stopping goal? I think the Chaos Emeralds would have fit perfectly for this! I can easily see appeal in a story where, in between helping out the resistance fight Eggman, you slowly pinpoint the locations of these incredibly powerful relics. It’d give the heroes a second reason to fight hard to take back the world, since they don’t want Eggman to find the emeralds first. It’d be a good marker for progress, since you can just count the emeralds you have. It could allow for the heroes to go to some pretty nifty locales, too! These gems are known for scattering to the winds, so why not have our heroes search the world to look for them? Not only that, it could also give the members of the resistance hope! With the emeralds on their side, it could be a physical reminder of the fact that they can beat Eggman, and maybe it’d even give some inspiring reason the rebellion is growing stronger. They have a chance to defeat Eggman! Why wouldn’t they fight hard to keep it? While it’s a bit of a departure from the typical sort of story, I think it’d give a good solid task to center the story around. Not only that, it might provide some further nostalgic value to those who loved the games where that was a big thing! 3. It elegantly serves to enhance the theme of the game. Now, this is the part I’m super proud of. Sonic Forces as a game strives to have one major theme. The theme of friendship, and how it can make you stronger. It’s not illustrated very well in the game itself, but I believe that’s what they were going for. The Chaos Emeralds themselves work perfectly in this dynamic, and are a wonderful foil to the Phantom Ruby. Think about it. The Chaos Emeralds are a set of powerful artifacts. They’ve been scattered to the winds by conflict (their previous usage), putting them in tons of unlikely places. They’re strong individually, but they can only reach their true power when brought together. These gems perfectly mimic the rebellion’s situation! The members of Sonic’s crew scattered to the winds after his supposed death. They’re all strong on their own, but they can only best Eggman when they come together! Which is done over the course of the game as the rebellion takes back more of the world! On the flip side of this, the Phantom Ruby perfectly mimics Infinite’s situation. He’s a super powerful foe, with his Ruby being able to conjure nearly anything. But that’s only when he’s able to get you where he wants. Otherwise he’s a pitiful excuse for a foe. He’s powerful, but he has nowhere near the power of, say, the Chaos Emeralds when they’re working together. This reinforces the idea of “The Power of Friendship” really well, and shows how much being with others can help. You might also even be able to say that the idea of the Custom Character going super alongside sonic could serve this idea! But that’s an idea for another day. It’s getting late, so I’m going to wrap this up. Sonic Forces is a very flawed game. It has a lot of good ideas, but fails to execute on them in a way that feels satisfying. The Chaos Emeralds almost fit too perfectly into this game, to the point that I have to wonder if they intended for them to be in there. Their nostalgic appeal, Handy narrative use, and reinforcement of the main theme make them shoe-ins, especially for a game marketed to die hard sonic fans. Maybe they originally wanted to include the emeralds as a part of the plot, but time constraints forced them to cut it (Like everything else). Nonetheless, I believe that they could have made this game a little better, and it saddens me to think of what could have been. I hope you guys enjoyed my ramblings! I have a lot of other things I've been thinking about how Sonic Forces could have been improved, so maybe I'll put em together someday if I feel like it. Anyway, Thanks for reading! Have a wonderful day!
  8. Amy was "cute and full of energy", as she would call herself in Adventure. But I don't know what she'd call herself nowadays, except "bland". I get trying to have her "mature" (which she was never as bad as people made her out to be in the games imo) but couldn't you have done that without taking her whole personality? She's so boring now. The last time she ever did anything was Unleashed. Nowadays she's just... there. Like I said, I feel like people really exaggerated her crush on Sonic. They saw Sonic X and used that interpretation on everything. Her crush was only emphasized for jokes like in Heroes. People talk about her chasing Sonic but they never talk about her speech to Shadow about how not all humans are bad. Or turned Gamma against Eggman through kind words. Or had a robot chase her throughout the entire story just to protect this bird. And then put the hurt on him when he finally got to it. Amy was a sweet character whose bad side you wouldn't want to get on. If Old Amy was "immature" and New Amy is mature, shoot, give me immaturity any day. Amy used to have been my only problem with the IDW comics. She felt like Sally 2.0 to me. Then someone told me it because she was overworked since she's the only Sonic character besides Knuckles that would be leader. That made alot of sense to me.
  9. So like what I mean everyone is like he's so lame his backstory is bad, etc., and that's exactly why I love him, he has such like middle schooler energy, the time when everyone was just poorly emulating what they see as cool, and it's adorable and hilarious, but everyone is like "he's the worst villain" for everything I love about him, am I like alone in this, does anyone else really like Infinite, or am I just justifying my love for a terribly written game because Infinite is just me when I was 12, and Forces is a shoddy version of my childhood (the 3d boost games)? Edit: I feel like I'm the only one that found Infinite as funny as he is because they played it so straight that his story being so lame made me find him really funny
  10. Since the team will might be developed by generations and forces classic sonic will probably might be in the game not in the open world but maybe in cyber space because they said that cyber space would be generations styled place so maybe we can switch between the two in there and probably have something similar to generations by the stages as I really liked classic sonic i hope he is in the game most probably hate him but I really want him in the game also classic tails would be in the game if the game is more focused on generations than forces.
  11. Recently, I’ve made my own Sonic Rig in Blender, and I wanted to test it out. So as we know, Sonic Forces was a pretty mediocre game. It also had some weak character animation. So here’s my attempt at a recreated scene from Sonic Forces made inside of Blender, rendered with Eevee Engine. Hope you give it a watch and enjoy!
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