So SatBK was released recently.

[Indigo Rush]

I said the new games play like SatAM spinoffs, in that they're very linear and feature Sonic flinging himself around in the air randomly. Spinball is a SatAM tie in, but doesn't play like it (it honestly plays like they tried to take a special stage concept and turn it into a whole game.

Way to reply to the wrong person. lol

Spinball is a SatAM tie in, but doesn't play like it

...SatAM had it's own game? Well, there was one being developed for a 32 bit console, but...

...

[Ryan Brown]

Way to reply to the wrong person. lol

...SatAM had it's own game? Well, there was one being developed for a 32 bit console, but...

...

Spinball was made by Sega Tech (Sega Technical Institute or STI if you prefer) who saw fit to give Sally, Bunnie and Rotor a cameo. That in no way makes it a tie-in. Phos is just doing more bitching.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Ryan the Game Master

[Indigo Rush]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnsn0_w6K9Q, but I don't think so. Still some good history.

[Phos]

....

I... what?

Seriously, what?

Not only do you say something nonsensical, but in the very next line you contradict it completely. What other "SatAM spin offfs are there"? Mean Bean Machine? That's a puzzle game. That one that they were planning but was never made?

Seriously, wtf are you talking about?

I don't even want to give you the time of day after reading that post, but I feel compelled:

Think about the stuff Sonic did in SatAM: Ran fast through a scripted set of events fighting If you can call it that) enemies that can barely fight back

What Sonic does in Unleashed: Run really fast through a set of largely scripted events scattered with enemies that can barely fight back.

The homing attack is also very similar the the way Sonic could do almost UFO-esque feats of zipping about randomly in mid air.

Sega has been treating Sonic like a licensed franchise, a cheap cash in.

I didn't bring up Spinball, iirc, Indigo Rush was the one who first said that Spinball was a SatAM tie in, and I mistakenly believed them. Forget about Spinball, this was the point:

1. Has any Sonic game that stayed true to the original formula ever been bad?

2. Has a Sonic game that followed the post adventure model ever been a landmark title in the industry to the same scale as the classics?

E: You guys are being a bunch of pricks, you know. Ryan, your doing to me exactly what your signature tells other people not to do, Indigo, just because I have a quote from someone else in my post doesn't mean everthing in the post is directed at them.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Phos

[Indigo Rush]

SONIC SATAM IS NOT A GAME.

Be clear! We don't know what you're talking about.

1. Has any Sonic game that stayed true to the original formula ever been bad?

Sonic the Hedgehog Genesis for GBA. Hey, it's the original formula. You had that coming to you. The generic answer is no, of course.

2. Has a Sonic game that followed the post adventure model ever been a landmark title in the industry to the same scale as the classics?

No, but does that mean it can't?

E: You guys are being a bunch of pricks, you know. Ryan, your doing to me exactly what your signature tells other people not to do, Indigo, just because I have a quote from someone else in my post doesn't mean everthing in the post is directed at them.

I'm a prick. I'm a prick. I'm sorry you feel this way about everyone here, Phos, but no one really intends to instigate (at least I don't) but calling everyone else a prick is childish. Calling us names won't stop our opinions from being different than yours.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Indigo Rush

[Tyranno]

How the heck was I supposed to get that meaning from what you said?

Seriously, there was next to no context in ANY of your posts for anyone to realize that's what you were actually saying.

Think about the stuff Sonic did in SatAM: Ran fast through a scripted set of events fighting If you can call it that) enemies that can barely fight back

What Sonic does in Unleashed: Run really fast through a set of largely scripted events scattered with enemies that can barely fight back.

While there's an enormous fallacy in comparing animation to video games, I never exactly found most stage enemies to be a challenge.

The homing attack is also very similar the the way Sonic could do almost UFO-esque feats of zipping about randomly in mid air.

Or a double jump. Or randomly rushing forward as a fireball. Or bouncing like a solid bubble of water.

Where have I seen that before...?

2. Has a Sonic game that followed the post adventure model ever been a landmark title in the industry to the same scale as the classics?

This is less to do with Sonic himself and more to do with Sega's fall from prominence and not having a proper game for an entire generation of gaming.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Razorsaw

[Ryan Brown]

1. Has any Sonic game that stayed true to the original formula ever been bad?

2. Has a Sonic game that followed the post adventure model ever been a landmark title in the industry to the same scale as the classics?

1. The Game Gear games, depending on who you ask.

2. Heroes, again, depending on who you ask

E: You guys are being a bunch of pricks, you know. Ryan, your doing to me exactly what your signature tells other people not to do, Indigo, just because I have a quote from someone else in my post doesn't mean everthing in the post is directed at them.

The only prick I see is you for stating your opinion as fact. Stop sounding so damn justified and I'll be more than happy to back off.

[SuperLink]

You want to know why the new Sonic model hasn't had any landmark titles? It's because the developers are mostly completely shit, and will never be able to make a Sonic game on the same scale as the old ones ever again unless serious action is taken with them.

Don't blame Sonic's image, or his movement, blame the fact that the games get the beginnings of formulas that are NEVER refined due almost exclusively to the indesicive team making the.

Sonic is moving in a direction that is fine, the only problem is that before anything is made great, Sonic Team will change his direction AGAIN. With Unleashed it seems things have settled a little (but they still use the dartboard).

[Ryan Brown]

You want to know why the new Sonic model hasn't had any landmark titles? It's because the developers are mostly completely shit, and will never be able to make a Sonic game on the same scale as the old ones ever again unless serious action is taken with them.

Don't blame Sonic's image, or his movement, blame the fact that the games get the beginnings of formulas that are NEVER refined due almost exclusively to the indesicive team making the.

Sonic is moving in a direction that is fine, the only problem is that before anything is made great, Sonic Team will change his direction AGAIN. With Unleashed it seems things have settled a little (but they still use the dartboard).

Dartboard? Picking ideas randomly, you mean?

[Indigo Rush]

Dartboard? Picking ideas randomly, you mean?

That's what I got out of it.

[SuperStingray]

E: You guys are being a bunch of pricks, you know. Ryan, your doing to me exactly what your signature tells other people not to do, Indigo, just because I have a quote from someone else in my post doesn't mean everthing in the post is directed at them.

Wow. Look, I can understand all your upsets with the franchise, but going ad hominem isn't going to solve anything. And now I'm feeling really compelled to show this to you.

[Indigo Rush]

Wow. Look, I can understand all your upsets with the franchise, but going ad hominem isn't going to solve anything. And now I'm feeling really compelled to show this to you.

I love you. This forum just became 90% smarter.

[Ryan Brown]

I love you. This forum just became 90% smarter.

81%, give or take a digit. At any rate, we should probably get back on topic and cease the flame war. It's not really helping anyone.

[Diogenes]

1. Has any Sonic game that stayed true to the original formula ever been bad?

Whether or not one actually exists, it'd be easy enough to make one. Even the best idea can be ruined by the stuff around it.

2. Has a Sonic game that followed the post adventure model ever been a landmark title in the industry to the same scale as the classics?

No, but who needs landmarks? I don't need a game that changes the face of gaming, just one that entertains me in the way I like to be entertained.

[SuperLink]

Yeah, dartboard is something people use to describe "where the gimmick comes from this time". I'm sure it's not that bad (I actually liked the werehog idea) but so many people just want speedy platforming, so a little less emphasis on random gimmicks would be nice, even though ST can't help it for some reason.

[Ryan Brown]

No, but who needs landmarks? I don't need a game that changes the face of gaming, just one that entertains me in the way I like to be entertained.

Once again, THANK YOU.

People focus too much on trying to make epic, glitzy, uber-innovative, landmark titles. I've seen quite a few (GTA 4, Kane and Lynch, Army of Two) reach for that standard only to fall on their faces to some degree or another, with deplorable or insignificant side effects, depending on the game.

Whatever happened to the original purpose of video games: to entertain?

Edited March 5, 2009 by Ryan the Game Master

[Phos]

SONIC SATAM IS NOT A GAME.

Be clear! We don't know what you're talking about.

1. Has any Sonic game that stayed true to the original formula ever been bad?

Sonic the Hedgehog Genesis for GBA. Hey, it's the original formula. You had that coming to you. The generic answer is no, of course.

2. Has a Sonic game that followed the post adventure model ever been a landmark title in the industry to the same scale as the classics?

No, but does that mean it can't?

I'm a prick. I'm a prick. I'm sorry you feel this way about everyone here, Phos, but no one really intends to instigate (at least I don't) but calling everyone else a prick is childish. Calling us names won't stop our opinions from being different than yours.

1. Sonic GBA's physics are massively dissimilar to the originals. And you can't deny that it would have been a better game if it was more like the original.

How the heck was I supposed to get that meaning from what you said?

Seriously, there was next to no context in ANY of your posts for anyone to realize that's what you were actually saying.

While there's an enormous fallacy in comparing animation to video games, I never exactly found most stage enemies to be a challenge.

Or a double jump. Or randomly rushing forward as a fireball. Or bouncing like a solid bubble of water.

Where have I seen that before...?

This is less to do with Sonic himself and more to do with Sega's fall from prominence and not having a proper game for an entire generation of gaming.

The bubble/fire/electric shields weren't in SatAM.

Question 2 is primarily about pattern recognition. The formula is they've created is pretty much the worst case from the a developer's point of view: They spend months creating a giant area that will be run through in minutes.

1. The Game Gear games, depending on who you ask.

2. Heroes, again, depending on who you ask

The only prick I see is you for stating your opinion as fact. Stop sounding so damn justified and I'll be more than happy to back off.

!?

You wrote off my opinion as "bitching", even though I bothered to give reasoning and examples, subjective though they were.

1. Lets see, many people dislike Sonic 2 GG for it's poorly balanced difficulty. Part of the original formula was presenting fair challenges (I'm not saying that that aspect is unique to Sonic 1/2/3/k/CD). The biggest problems with the other GG games games was the simplified physics, once again, the biggest problem was they're deviation from the original formula.

2. A much larger portion of people will say that Sonic 1/2/3 were landmark games compared to the number that will say the same of Sonic Heroes.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Phos

[Tyranno]

The bubble/fire/electric shields weren't in SatAM.

But they're certainly "UFO like feats" and similar conceptually to the homing attack, in that they're impossible feats completely forsaking the concept of aerodynamics.

[Indigo Rush]

The bubble/fire/electric shields weren't in SatAM.

THIS IS SATAM.

Phos.

PLEASE.

What in the name of my pet transvestite hamster's left ovary do you mean by Sonic SatAM???

You obviously aren't referring to the television show, are you? Is there some forgotten title that we don't know about that only you do? Why do you keep referring to a western television program as a videogame?

1. Sonic GBA's physics are massively dissimilar to the originals. And you can't deny that it would have been a better game if it was more like the original.

The generic answer is no, of course.

Sarcasm doesn't translate well, my bad.

1. Lets see, many people dislike Sonic 2 GG for it's poorly balanced difficulty. Part of the original formula was presenting fair challenges (I'm not saying that that aspect is unique to Sonic 1/2/3/k/CD). The biggest problems with the other GG games games was the simplified physics, once again, the biggest problem was they're deviation from the original formula.

None the less, they followed the original formula, no?

[Diogenes]

Part of the original formula was presenting fair challenges

Sounds like you're one step away from saying the formula of the classics was "make good games" and the formula of later games is "make bad games".

[Tyranno]

I wouldn't call "Labyrinth Zone" a fair challenge, myself.

[SuperLink]

*Mentions Sonic Advance - Sonic Rush Adventure in a brief, but fleeting moment*

*Alas, it is but a memory*

*Gone with the wind*

*Like the aroma of something poetic*

[Ryan Brown]

!?

You wrote off my opinion as "bitching", even though I bothered to give reasoning and examples, subjective though they were.

1. Lets see, many people dislike Sonic 2 GG for it's poorly balanced difficulty. Part of the original formula was presenting fair challenges (I'm not saying that that aspect is unique to Sonic 1/2/3/k/CD). The biggest problems with the other GG games games was the simplified physics, once again, the biggest problem was they're deviation from the original formula.

Reasoning that's no different than what we've been hearing for years. You can write my opinion off if it makes you feel any better. I wouldn't really care.

Heck, Sega themselves could waltz in, look at my opinions and crap all over 'em and I still wouldn't give any kind of damn. This is because it's what I think, nothing more, nothing less. I don't act like it's the be all-end all statement about a certain topic, nor do I try to give off that vibe. I've accepted the fact that, in the grand scheme of things, my opinion isn't worth that much. I'm waiting 'til I get to Sega to worry about that. (That's another story entirely, though.)

You, on the other hand, have been giving a "holier than thou" aura about your own opinion, whether you realize it or not. All I'm asking is that you get over yourself, just a little.

Sonic 1

Sonic 2

Chaos

Triple Trouble

Those four didn't deviate too much, did they? I haven't been able to play Triple Trouble yet, so I wouldn't know.

All that being said, I'm dropping this matter and getting back on topic: discussing Black Knight. Any other posts that deviate from that I'll simply ignore.

[Indigo Rush]

Black Knight had chili dogs in them, but so did Sonic SatAM, and apparently all that game had was "the ability to run fast through a scripted set of events fighting enemies that can barely fight back" plus a lack of special shields. And it had Sally Acorn. Such a terrible videogame.

[Ryan Brown]

EDIT: Never mind. >_<;

Edited March 5, 2009 by Ryan the Game Master