If you could change one thing of all Sonic games.

[Skull Leader]

Spinning is an integral part of Sonic gameplay. Any character that can't spin shouldn't be playable. If Sonic needs something unique, he needs to look somewhere else.

I'm going to assume this goes for the 2-D games: Spinning may be integral for Sonic because it's what gives him his unique identity, however when it comes to the more fundamental aspects of the 2-D genesis style games, it is not because it's factors such as physics, level design and momentum based gameplay what really shapes those games, spinning is just one of many possible ways to achieve speed. For example we already had the rubber-band physics from Chaotix, which easely could be integrated into characters like Big in the form of his fishing rod, or Amy, who does not roll in the first Advance but instead have other moves such as the hammer jump which can be used to increase speed by jumping out of loops, or performing it while running down a slope as well as hitting springs to launch herself at high speeds.

In short the games are about speed, however I don;t think rolling is the only way to achieve it, and breaking away from that mold can lead to interesting and fun variations, which is good since it adds to the gameplay and helps to keep things fresh without having to compromise the fundamentals that define the momentum based gameplay.

If not the spinning action, then the spinning mechanics. There's got to be something there that works enough like spinning to compensate for playing like the rest of the characters. Blaze can pirhouette, Silver can slide, Amy can buttslide ala Mario and Big can roll sideways for all I care, but as long as they have a crouching-while-mobile move that functions the exact same way as rolling it's all good because that's practically an essential move for a Sonic game, at least for 2D outings.

This actually does not sound bad since while the mechanic still follows the same principle, it uses a different way for each character to gain speed, especially during slopes, which helps to make them look visually different as opposed to the generic roll.

[HUNTER297]

If not the spinning action, then the spinning mechanics. There's got to be something there that works enough like spinning to compensate for playing like the rest of the characters. Blaze can pirhouette, Silver can slide, Amy can buttslide ala Mario and Big can roll sideways for all I care, but as long as they have a crouching-while-mobile move that functions the exact same way as rolling it's all good because that's practically an essential move for a Sonic game, at least for 2D outings. I do know however that Sonic, Tails (because he's been following Sonic for so long), Knuckles and Shadow should all have spinning and that's just as definite as it can get.

Both Knuckles and Tails could roll in Sonic Adventure. Adventure 2 shouldn't even truly count, since even for Sonic they mostly replaced the spin attack with the (*groan*) somersault.

[Kuzu]

They complain about him having treasure hunting instead of proper Sonic gameplay, and spinning is an integral part of Sonic gameplay. They don't bring up spinning specifically because it's just part of the bigger issue regarding his gameplay.

I've seen gameplay hacks of Knuckles in both Sonic and Eggman's levels and he plays fine without spinning. Like SMS said spinning isn't the only way to attain speed.

[Diogenes]

I've seen gameplay hacks of Knuckles in both Sonic and Eggman's levels and he plays fine without spinning.

Because SA2 doesn't use/have proper Sonic physics. Every character in SA2 "plays fine" without spinning because spinning is barely a part of the gameplay. Which is part of why SA2 is a pretty mediocre Sonic game.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I never actually made a response regarding the OP.

If there was one thing I would change, it would be Sonic Chronicles in general. First I would make it canon, second I would re-write portions of the script, third I would make Shade revealing herself as an echidna more shocking and dramatic and her character more interesting, fourth I would restructure how they organized and connected the levels, fifth I would use 3D for the cutscenes, and sixth I would make it more of a platformer and more fast paced instead of a turn-based RPG. Some RPG elements could still work (that would take some time to implement) but it wouldn't be turn-based, and it would be as similar as I can make it to an action-platformer based on the Unleashed formula (or a better one if feasible) as possible.

And I would also make the sequel afterwards.

Yes, I know that's a lot to do for one thing.

Edited August 5, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Because SA2 doesn't use/have proper Sonic physics. Every character in SA2 "plays fine" without spinning because spinning is barely a part of the gameplay. Which is part of why SA2 is a pretty mediocre Sonic game.

Or that spinning isn't as fundamental as people are making it out to be, at least in regards to the 3D games.

[Diogenes]

Or that spinning isn't as fundamental as people are making it out to be, at least in regards to the 3D games.

[Kuzu]

Spinning hasn't been fundamental in the 3D games because most of the 3D games barely qualify as Sonic games.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Shadic93

[azoo]

Spinning hasn't been fundamental in the 3D games because most of the 3D games barely qualify as Sonic games.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Azukara

[Kuzu]

Alright now, so while I agreed with you on the point about spinning being very important, I cannot agree with this. Especially since the modern gameplay in Generations is shaping up to be something really great, and rolling is only moderately portioned to the player in the form of the Spin Dash Drift. Granted, I'd highly prefer them to replace the sliding animation with the rolling one, but not having it that way is not gonna disqualify it from being a good Sonic game, let alone a Sonic game at all.

[Diogenes]

Yes, because they don't use one mechanic, that instantly disqualifies them from being Sonic games.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Diogenes

[Blue Blood]

The only Sonic games that haven't been Sonic games from a gameplay point of view are spin-offs like Chronicles (no duh) and alternate gameplay styles that resemble the original Sonic gameplay in no way (SA2 shooting stages, fishing and Werehog). Pretty much everything else has been a Sonic game, with or without rolling and spinning.

I think we're going off topic now anyway. We perhaps need a topic "What Makes a Sonic Game?".

[Kuzu]

One of the most vital mechanics that defined the gameplay of the original games, yes.

It's almost like having Mario games without jumping.

[Diogenes]

Sonic's gimmick is SPEED not Spinning, spinning was only used to gain more speed, which is still possible nowadays with the boost. I admit the boost needs to be modified heavily, but it still has the same mechanics.

[Kuzu]

Do you realize the part of the game that's actually of value is the mechanics of the game and not some one-word tag line? The rolling, along with the rest of the physics and controls, were what made the Genesis games great, not simply the ability to go fast.

[HUNTER297]

We are turning into retro fans with all this "Our precious formula isnt present in game! Sonic dont spin properly!"

Its called innovation. I will gladly welcome any new formula for Sonic in coming years.

[Diogenes]

We are turning into retro fans with all this "Our precious formula isnt present in game! Sonic dont spin properly!"

[Kuzu]

"I will gladly accept any shit Sega shovels into my mouth". This isn't a virtue.

And neither is saying "Everything post-1994 is shit" either.

Seriously dude, what's your deal, why are you attacking everyone lately.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Shadic93

[Diogenes]

And neither is saying "Everything post-1994 is shit" either.

I'm not going to say everything is shit, but they have consistently failed to live up to the original series, either by ignoring its mechanics entirely or making poor imitations (and only after years of hounding finally got through to them). That's simply a fact.

Seriously dude, what's your deal, why are you attacking everyone lately.

I point out and either correct or mock stupidity all the time. If I've been doing it more often, maybe there's just been more stupidity around lately.

[Kuzu]

I'm not going to say everything is shit, but they have consistently failed to live up to the original series, either by ignoring its mechanics entirely or making poor imitations (and only after years of hounding finally got through to them). That's simply a fact.

The series is never going to be as good as it was, even if they took everything from 2D and put into 3D, there's always going to be some type of problem. I'm sorry you can't enjoy any game nowadays because its not like the classics, but what're gonna do quit the series?

I point out and either correct or mock stupidity all the time. If I've been doing it more often, maybe there's just been more stupidity around lately.

You're essentially saying that anyone who likes the modern games, have no taste in good games. Hell sometimes(I am aware you're the one usually provoked) you rag on someone who gets excited about Generations.

[Diogenes]

The series is never going to be as good as it was, even if they took everything from 2D and put into 3D, there's always going to be some type of problem.

Maybe, but I'm not giving up yet. And for the record I don't want them to just convert S3&K gameplay into 3D.

You're essentially saying that anyone who likes the modern games, have no taste in good games.

Sometimes (if they're talking about '06, then hell yes). Sometimes it's a matter of not caring about actual Sonic games and just playing whatever halfway decent thing (or even something not so good that triggers some amount of enjoyment) they put out.

Hell sometimes(I am aware you're the one usually provoked) you rag on someone who gets excited about Generations.

Because I think Generations is a mediocre game. It's riding on the mediocre Unleashed Day gameplay, a poor imitation of Sonic 2, and heaps of nostalgia. After all this time, we shouldn't be so easily fooled.

[Kuzu]

Maybe, but I'm not giving up yet. And for the record I don't want them to just convert S3&K gameplay into 3D.

That surprisingly optimistic of you, don't ever lose it. I know that, and I also know its not exactly easy to convert 2D physics to 3D.

Sometimes (if they're talking about '06, then hell yes). Sometimes it's a matter of not caring about actual Sonic games and just playing whatever halfway decent thing (or even something not so good that triggers some amount of enjoyment) they put out.

But the people that like the mediocre games, even acknowledge how bad it is. Hell the Adventure games are still my top 3D games, and I'm aware of how many bad design choices it has. Just because we like a bad game doesn't mean we don't know how bad it is, we just simply enjoy it is all.

Because I think Generations is a mediocre game. It's riding on the mediocre Unleashed Day gameplay, a poor imitation of Sonic 2, and heaps of nostalgia. After all this time, we shouldn't be so easily fooled.

Exactly. Just because you think its a mediocre game, doesn't mean everyone else should. That mediocre gameplay is what got people to actually give Sonic a second chance, I think people have a right to be excited.

And is Nostalgia really a bad case if its celebrating the franchises` 20th birthday? I could understand if it was a rehash like Sonic 4 or another collection, but every level is being revamped to be completely different from what it once was.

we're not being fooled, we honestly think its a good game, and I'm sorry you disagree otherwise.

[Diogenes]

But the people that like the mediocre games, even acknowledge how bad it is. Hell the Adventure games are still my top 3D games, and I'm aware of how many bad design choices it has. Just because we like a bad game doesn't mean we don't know how bad it is, we just simply enjoy it is all.

Some people do. Far too many don't.

Exactly. Just because you think its a mediocre game, doesn't mean everyone else should.

That's why we have discussions.

And is Nostalgia really a bad case if its celebrating the franchises` 20th birthday?

Having nostalgia is not a bad thing (well, for this series in particular I think it's something the fanbase spends too much time in already, but given it's an anniversary game it comes out to about neutral). The problem is in being fooled into thinking the game is better than it is because of nostalgia.

we're not being fooled, we honestly think its a good game,

Honestly thinking it's a good game does not mean you aren't being fooled. In fact that's the exact reaction you would have if you were being fooled; if you're being fooled, you don't know you're being fooled, so obviously your response is honest.

[Kuzu]

Some people do. Far too many don't.

Well not everybody in this fanbase are sane now are they?

That's why we have discussions.

Exactly. there's no really defining it as a mediocre game, because everyone has their own views on what's mediocre.

Having nostalgia is not a bad thing (well, for this series in particular I think it's something the fanbase spends too much time in already, but given it's an anniversary game it comes out to about neutral). The problem is in being fooled into thinking the game is better than it is because of nostalgia.

Meh I could careless about the returning levels, I just like the level design is all, and how detailed each area is.

Honestly thinking it's a good game does not mean you aren't being fooled. In fact that's the exact reaction you would have if you were being fooled; if you're being fooled, you don't know you're being fooled, so obviously your response is honest.

Then how can you, or anyone for that matter tell what's different from what's good and what's bad? Like I said everyone has different views. Just because you think Generations is mediocre doesn't mean it is, and just because some people think its going to be the best game ever doesn't mean it is. It all depends on how much you liked it or not.

[HUNTER297]

@Diogenes

How can you rate game that hasnt been relased yet. You say its medicore. Have you played it. I dont think so. I think we all should just wait before ranting this game.