If you could change one thing of all Sonic games.

[Marcello]

@Diogenes

How can you rate game that hasnt been relased yet. You say its medicore. Have you played it. I dont think so. I think we all should just wait before ranting this game.

Well, then nobody's allowed to say the game is awesome, either. I see noone saying anything against those people.

[HUNTER297]

Well, then nobody's allowed to say the game is awesome, either. I see noone saying anything against those people.

Well I always say "Awsome" for stuff that is in game. Not actuall game. I never rate game before I play it.

[Aquaslash]

Problem is most of the Archie characters lack any real abilities unlike most of the game cast, and the ones that are just copies of the powers characters already have. For instance other than being green Scourge has no real abilities that set him apart from Sonic, Shadow, or Metal.

In a game like Sonic Riders, or Sonic Rivals, or Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, does that really matter? In fact, I'll go as far as to say that Sonic and Scourge could be played up like Ryu and Ken, or better yet, Ryu and Akuma. (Street Fighter characters) All three traditionally play nearly identically, with the only real differences being in showy attacks and Akuma's Shun Goku Statsu technique. Yet people love and play with each of those guys for one reason or another. I know I certainly love a good Ryu/Ken fight, and I'd be all down for a good ol Sonic/Scourge race.

For me, an avid fan of the Sonic Universe as a whole, it's all about having fun.

[Kuzu]

In a game like Sonic Riders, or Sonic Rivals, or Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, does that really matter? In fact, I'll go as far as to say that Sonic and Scourge could be played up like Ryu and Ken, or better yet, Ryu and Akuma. (Street Fighter characters) All three traditionally play nearly identically, with the only real differences being in showy attacks and Akuma's Shun Goku Statsu technique. Yet people love and play with each of those guys for one reason or another. I know I certainly love a good Ryu/Ken fight, and I'd be all down for a good ol Sonic/Scourge race.

For me, an avid fan of the Sonic Universe as a whole, it's all about having fun.

Difference being Ken and Akuma have differences that set them apart from Ryu, just like Metal and Shadow. Ken has more physical moves and relies more on Shoryuken while Akuma hits a lot harder than Ryu. Shadow is already the Akuma of the series, as for the Ryu/Ken....If they can find an apsect of Scourge(and by extension, everyone else) to focus on that differs him from Sonic then by all means, Clones are common in games like Riders and Fighters.

[Scar]

Because I think Generations is a mediocre game. It's riding on the mediocre Unleashed Day gameplay, a poor imitation of Sonic 2, and heaps of nostalgia. After all this time, we shouldn't be so easily fooled.

Well there's your problem.

You've written it off as mediocre before even playing it.

"It uses the Unleashed gameplay style, therefore it cannot be good"

You and I both know that Unleashed's gameplay doesn't inherently require Unleashed's level design you so vehemently despise. The level design can be anything the designer wants it to be, the Unleashed gameplay is verstile enough to work in nearly any kind of Sonic level design you throw at it, especially after Generations' control improvements.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Scar

[Aquaslash]

Difference being Ken and Akuma have differences that set them apart from Ryu, just like Metal and Shadow. Ken has more physical moves and relies more on Shoryuken while Akuma hits a lot harder than Ryu. Shadow is already the Akuma of the series, as for the Ryu/Ken....If they can find an apsect of Scourge(and by extension, everyone else) to focus on that differs him from Sonic then by all means, Clones are common in games like Riders and Fighters.

Yeah, I agree with you here. New powers are created for the characters , and some are even taken away all the time to suit needs just like this one. Though as it stands now, Metal Sonic and Shadow are hardly like Sonic anymore. The only things Shadow has in common with Sonic anymore are being a Speed Type and use of the homing attack. He's all about Chaos Powers now. Even Metal Sonic is basically Seth, to keep up the Street Fighter comparisons. Instead of just being a sonic clone, he's the every clone.

[Diogenes]

Well there's your problem.

You've written it off as mediocre before even playing it.

Fuck this double standard bullshit in its tight little asshole. No one says this if people are praising the game, it's only used to get people who aren't satisfied to shut up. Try using a real argument.

[Kuzu]

Fuck this double standard bullshit in its tight little asshole. No one says this if people are praising the game, it's only used to get people who aren't satisfied to shut up. Try using a real argument.

Did you read the rest of his post? He clearly gave a reason.

[Diogenes]

Did you read the rest of his post? He clearly gave a reason.

Yes I did, and no he doesn't.

[Kuzu]

Yeah, I agree with you here. New powers are created for the characters , and some are even taken away all the time to suit needs just like this one. Though as it stands now, Metal Sonic and Shadow are hardly like Sonic anymore. The only things Shadow has in common with Sonic anymore are being a Speed Type and use of the homing attack. He's all about Chaos Powers now. Even Metal Sonic is basically Seth, to keep up the Street Fighter comparisons. Instead of just being a sonic clone, he's the every clone.

Well Ken and Akuma started out as clones of Ryu and evolved into similar yet different characters. Shadow can still considered a partial clone, both he and Sonic still have the same basic fighting style, Sonic just relies on his speed more while Shadow relies on his Chaos powers more.

Anyway if Scourge was in a game, I'd probably focus on the destructive aspect of him.

[Scar]

Fuck this double standard bullshit in its tight little asshole. No one says this if people are praising the game, it's only used to get people who aren't satisfied to shut up. Try using a real argument.

Well, you're right, you can't say that the game is awesome just because it uses the Unleashed gameplay.

I don't, but I've played modern, and its pretty good. Green Hill is an excellently designed introductory level. It may be linear, and it may have a lot of hallways to boost through, but its a lot of fun and does the job of intruducing the gameplay to anyone new to it, perfectly. The later levels might be complete shit, but neither you or I know that for sure.

Also your argument; "Generations uses Unleashed's gameplay, therefore it cannot be anything more than mediocre", isn't much better.

The mediocrity of Unleashed was mainly due to the level design. As I said above, the level design isn't inherently a part of the Unleashed gameplay. The level design can be changed and improved, whilst Unleashed's gameplay (meaning the boost and the general control scheme and moveset) can remain almost exactly the same.

Do you really think that Unleashed's gameplay is incapable of improving? Reading your post, that's certainly what it sounds like.

Its like I said, you've written it off, before playing or seeing all of it.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Scar

[Xenos]

I know this'll be off topic, but...

Why is it so important for the current games to keep so many mechanics from the Classics? Maybe I don't understand so well, but isn't the point to move forward?

I mean, Rolling, multiple paths, etc. They were good in the Classics, but I think we can move from that. Just because it doesn't keep a few mechanics from the Classics doesn't mean it's bad, it's just different. I'm not saying Generations will be good or bad just yet, but I will say I'm excited for the game. I've only played the demo, so I can't judge fully. Having the game mechanics of the Classics wouldn't make the game any better if it has different level design that accommodates the game play as it already is, right?

What bothers me Diogenes, is you are outright calling the game mediocre without playing through the full game at all. It's as if I said the game is the best 3d game ever made without playing through it myself.

It doesn't sound any different to what critics do, they play a few levels, then give a review without playing through the entire thing. So they think poorly of the final product when they didn't finish the game. That's why I don't like these, "Professional" Critics. I'm making the comparison because they judge the quality of the entire game without playing it fully. Hell, I don't even know if I'll like the game as much as I'm hyped for it after noticing a few issues I had with the demo, but I won't judge it until the game is released, and I play through it.

I don't mind if you think the game is mediocre after playing the whole thing, I'd respect that because you actually went through it. Not trying to rage at you, but I feel that you have the mentality you instantly know the game is mediocre, and anyone who thinks otherwise is being fooled by nostalgia.

But...guess we'll see when the games out then?

[Diogenes]

The mediocrity of Unleashed was mainly due to the level design.

Level design and gameplay style are not two separate beasts. Unleashed's level design sucks largely because of the overpowered boost, meaning most areas have to be either boost hallways or pseudo-QTEs. Generations has made some small effort to improve it, but so far it mostly amounts to adding a little more standard platforming. I'm not impressed.

Do you really think that Unleashed's gameplay is incapable of improving?

I believe it's capable of improving. I don't see much evidence that it has been improved.

Its like I said, you've written it off, before playing or seeing all of it.

If I had written it off, I wouldn't be here. I hang around and wait for new info the same as everyone else, info which may change (or reinforce) my current opinions. And, like everyone else, I don't sit around twiddling my thumbs waiting for the entire game to be shown before I'm allowed to have an opinion on what I see.

No one hesitates one bit to say "oh wow this looks awesome, this game's gonna be great!" Why am I made to feel like I'm doing something wrong for expressing the opposite opinion?

Why is it so important for the current games to keep so many mechanics from the Classics? Maybe I don't understand so well, but isn't the point to move forward?

Why should moving forward mean we abandon what we already have?

Just because it doesn't keep a few mechanics from the Classics doesn't mean it's bad, it's just different.

What, exactly, do you come to this series for? Are you just here for the characters? Or the story?

I'm here for the gameplay. If the gameplay doesn't follow from its predecessors, it's failing at being an entry in this series.

Having the game mechanics of the Classics wouldn't make the game any better if it has different level design that accommodates the game play as it already is, right?

Of course, but that just means there are two problems with the game instead of one.

What bothers me Diogenes, is you are outright calling the game mediocre without playing through the full game at all. It's as if I said the game is the best 3d game ever made without playing through it myself.

Yes, it is like that. Exactly like that. The problem being that no one minds if you say the latter but when I say the former suddenly I've done something wrong. Edited August 5, 2011 by Diogenes

[KHCast]

Dio Didn't you say that you liked what they did with Modern city escape? That there improved the unleashed gameplay in a positive way to you right? Well if other stages follow that trend

Like Crisis city, Seaside hill,Speed highway

And the classic stages(and other modern stages) Which I highly think they'll do then I don't think thats a mediocre game. Just because GHZ level design wasn't to your liking or the CPZ pictures LOOK linear doesn't mean It will all turn out crappy or mediocre. It actually to me would be a mix of Sonic Adventure mixed with the daytime formula. I don't think the game will be as "linear" as it was in unleashed.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Hedgehogs Boost

[Xenos]

Why should moving forward mean we abandon what we already have?

But you are saying the Unleashed gameplay isn't good enough here, so I can direct that question to you can't I?

What, exactly, do you come to this series for? Are you just here for the characters? Or the story?

I'm here for the gameplay. If the gameplay doesn't follow from its predecessors, it's failing at being an entry in this series.

I'm here for all 3, and by your logic if I didn't make a cheeseburger the exact same way I did before, I fail at cooking. But what if that cheeseburger is still good? What if people like it? The Unleashed gameplay is building off some things from the classics and then expanding off of it. Rolling just didn't happen to be one.

Of course, but that just means there are two problems with the game instead of one.

There wouldn't be any problem if the level design is still good, the gameplay polished up, and overall FUN.

Yes, it is like that. Exactly like that. The problem being that no one minds if you say the latter but when I say the former suddenly I've done something wrong.

I agree here, that isn't very fair. We all have our reasons to like and dislike the game, but I think what the problem is we're judging the game only what we've seen and not what we've played. I'll wait for the game to come out, and try it...would you?

Bold is my reply.

[Scar]

Level design and gameplay style are not two separate beasts. Unleashed's level design sucks largely because of the overpowered boost, meaning most areas have to be either boost hallways or pseudo-QTEs. Generations has made some small effort to improve it, but so far it mostly amounts to adding a little more standard platforming. I'm not impressed.

Yes, but like I said, boost hallways aren't inherently required for the Unleashed formula and boost to operate. Also, any improvement is an improvement. Sonic Team could literally have just stood still and regurgitated Unleashed's gameplay wholesale, but they didn't. They've decided on a direction and they are moving.

I believe it's capable of improving. I don't see much evidence that it has been improved.

Mechanically, there have been a lot of improvements over Unleashed. Namely the drift, which not only has a badass animation, but also controls like a dream (I mean, when I played it, it felt perfect). The acceleration and low-speed controls have been stablised, so it doesn't feel like Sonic is gliding across the floor, it 'feels' like you have friction and traction.

Level design wise, Green Hill is only slightly more complex than videos have shown it to be. There are a couple of extra branches to the main path here and there. Its pretty well designed for an opening stage, and is better than you give it credit for.

If I had written it off, I wouldn't be here. I hang around and wait for new info the same as everyone else, info which may change (or reinforce) my current opinions. And, like everyone else, I don't sit around twiddling my thumbs waiting for the entire game to be shown before I'm allowed to have an opinion on what I see.

No one hesitates one bit to say "oh wow this looks awesome, this game's gonna be great!" Why am I made to feel like I'm doing something wrong for expressing the opposite opinion?

Implying that was not my intention.

The only reason I picked out your post was because you said this:

Because I think Generations is a mediocre game. It's riding on the mediocre Unleashed Day gameplay, a poor imitation of Sonic 2, and heaps of nostalgia. After all this time, we shouldn't be so easily fooled.

This sounded a lot like you were saying that the Unleashed gameplay is inherently flawed (rather than flawed in execution), and incapable of getting better. Obviously, I made an assumption, but that's what it sounded like to me, and it kinda annoyed me.

[Diogenes]

Dio Didn't you say that you liked what they did with Modern city escape?

I said it was better than GHZ. Which isn't much of a compliment.

That there improved the unleashed gameplay in a positive way to you right?

Yes, but only a little bit. It's still got most of the same problems.

Well if other stages follow that trend *snip* And the classic stages(and other modern stages) Which I highly think they'll do then I don't think thats a mediocre game.

If they follow that trend, it will be exactly mediocre. But, even if I thought City Escape was good, assuming the levels go in chronological order it is the exact midpoint of the game. And it is not midpoint-of-the-game good, it's first level good.

But you are saying the Unleashed gameplay isn't good enough here, so I can direct that question to you can't I?

...I'm not sure what you're saying here. If you're asking why we should abandon the Unleashed gameplay...it's because it isn't very good, and it's getting in the way of what the series should be doing.

I'm here for all 3, and by your logic if I didn't make a cheeseburger the exact same way I did before, I fail at cooking.

No, I'm saying if you make a "cheeseburger" out of rice and peanut butter, you deserve to get chewed out for trying to pass it off as a cheeseburger, regardless of how it tastes.

EDIT: Also in case you find that to be an overly extreme comparison, consider a cheeseburger made of bacon and yogurt. It's meat (platforming) and dairy (speed), so it's basically the same thing, right?

Also <<FOOD METAPHOR SPOTTED>>

The Unleashed gameplay is building off some things from the classics and then expanding off of it. Rolling just didn't happen to be one.

The Unleashed gameplay is building off the shallowest aspects of the Genesis gameplay. It's all just cheap thrills.

There wouldn't be any problem if the level design is still good, the gameplay polished up, and overall FUN.

There is if it doesn't play like a Sonic game.

I agree here, that isn't very fair. We all have our reasons to like and dislike the game, but I think what the problem is we're judging the game only what we've seen and not what we've played. I'll wait for the game to come out, and try it...would you?

Of course, I've never said otherwise. Why people continue to assume my current opinion can't possibly be changed or amended in any way baffles me.

Yes, but like I said, boost hallways aren't inherently required for the Unleashed formula and boost to operate.

I might start to believe that when I see it, or perhaps hear a plausible explanation for how you can have anything else while moving at that sort of speed.

Also, any improvement is an improvement. Sonic Team could literally have just stood still and regurgitated Unleashed's gameplay wholesale, but they didn't. They've decided on a direction and they are moving.

Yes, an improvement is an improvement, but a 1% improvement won't change a C to an A.

Mechanically, there have been a lot of improvements over Unleashed. Namely the drift, which not only has a badass animation, but also controls like a dream (I mean, when I played it, it felt perfect). The acceleration and low-speed controls have been stablised, so it doesn't feel like Sonic is gliding across the floor, it 'feels' like you have friction and traction.

This is small comfort considering the gameplay is still dominated by the boost.

Level design wise, Green Hill is only slightly more complex than videos have shown it to be. There are a couple of extra branches to the main path here and there. Its pretty well designed for an opening stage, and is better than you give it credit for.

Doesn't sound like it.

This sounded a lot like you were saying that the Unleashed gameplay is inherently flawed (rather than flawed in execution), and incapable of getting better.

Yes to the former, no to the latter. Unleashed style can improve, but as long as it clings to its roots it's going to be chained down by them. Edited August 5, 2011 by Diogenes

[KHCast]

If they follow that trend, it will be exactly mediocre. But, even if I thought City Escape was good, assuming the levels go in chronological order it is the exact midpoint of the game. And it is not midpoint-of-the-game good, it's first level good.

I also mentioned classic levels like

Sky sanctuary

or CPZ. What I mean is they make other levels like CE but with more challenge advancing in difficulty. I don't mean they'll stay at that level of skill. I personally don't think they'll advance difficulty by Level order.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Hedgehogs Boost

[Diogenes]

I also mentioned classic levels like

Sky sanctuary

or CPZ. What I mean is they make other levels like CE but with more challenge advancing in difficulty. I don't mean they'll stay at that level of skill.

Simply making the levels more complex or difficult isn't going to fix the flaws in the programming, the choice of controls/ability, or the level design philosophy.

I personally don't think they'll advance difficulty by Level order.

Why wouldn't they? That's how almost every game in the history of forever works.

[KHCast]

Simply making the levels more complex or difficult isn't going to fix the flaws in the programming, the choice of controls/ability, or the level design philosophy.

Why wouldn't they? That's how almost every game in the history of forever works.

I'm going to wait until I see one or two more levels before i make my assumption on the level Design. So far I'm thinking that it's good after seeing CE but I'll wait and see.

Well I mean by the Specific level. They might go first level from the era's then 2nd and then 3rd. I was a bit mind twisted there when I was trying to explain it. I would be fine with either way they introduce the levels.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Hedgehogs Boost

[Xenos]

...I'm not sure what you're saying here. If you're asking why we should abandon the Unleashed gameplay...it's because it isn't very good, and it's getting in the way of what the series should be doing.

Well then to that I say let Sonic Team work it out, Unleashed was a huge step forward. Colors is it advancing in Controls and Platforming, Generations is even more control improvements, multiple pathways, and more open levels. I feel like your rushing Sonic Team off of what they are trying to build off of, and do something else. Something that didn't help them at all in the past.

No, I'm saying if you make a "cheeseburger" out of rice and peanut butter, you deserve to get chewed out for trying to pass it off as a cheeseburger, regardless of how it tastes.

EDIT: Also in case you find that to be an overly extreme comparison, consider a cheeseburger made of bacon and yogurt. It's meat (platforming) and dairy (speed), so it's basically the same thing, right?

Also <<FOOD METAPHOR SPOTTED>>

(I c wat u did thar. =V) Okay, I'll take it this way, I just got this long, difficult recipe and I tried making a steak meal, it didn't come out bad, but it needed some work. (Unleashed Day Stages) My second attempt I added my own special spices to make it taste more appealing. (Colors) My third attempt, the steak tastes good, now I'll complete the rest of the dish. Until I can finish this recipe and make it my own. (Generations Modern Gameplay)

The Unleashed gameplay is building off the shallowest aspects of the Genesis gameplay. It's all just cheap thrills.

Add some exploration (City Escape seems to be doing this to an extent) With a side of multiple paths (....City Escape and bits of Green Hill) and we have a dish here, folks.

There is if it doesn't play like a Sonic game.

A Sonic game is Speed and platforming. Which Generations is doing at the moment, no? The way that speed is given is subjective. Rolling isn't what makes a Sonic game, it's just a mechanic that was used in the Classics.

Of course, I've never said otherwise. Why people continue to assume my current opinion can't possibly be changed or amended in any way baffles me.

You seem hard to impress!

[Diogenes]

Well then to that I say let Sonic Team work it out, Unleashed was a huge step forward. Colors is it advancing in Controls and Platforming, Generations is even more control improvements, multiple pathways, and more open levels. I feel like your rushing Sonic Team off of what they are trying to build off of, and do something else.

Two problems, pursuing this with Unleashed's gameplay design is either going to run us into a brick wall when we reach the end of its usefulness, or it's going to need to be changed anyway. Second, this is where we should have been 10 years ago. I think I've got the right to be a little impatient.

Something that didn't help them at all in the past.

...the Genesis games didn't help them in the past?

Okay, I'll take it this way, I just got this long, difficult recipe and I tried making a steak meal, it didn't come out bad, but it needed some work. (Unleashed Day Stages) My second attempt I added my own special spices to make it taste more appealing. (Colors) My third attempt, the steak tastes good, now I'll complete the rest of the dish. Until I can finish this recipe and make it my own. (Generations Modern Gameplay)

That's nice...but I ordered a cheeseburger. This is Sonic's Burger Joint, right? Where's my Sonic Burger?

Add some exploration (City Escape seems to be doing this to an extent) With a side of multiple paths (....City Escape and bits of Green Hill) and we have a dish here, folks.

You realize "exploration" and "multiple paths" are pretty much the same when it comes to this series, right? At any rate, neither of them are what I was getting at. It's the physics, the momentum, the rolling, something that (even if it is implemented) is going to be constantly sidelined by the boost, at least with the mentality they have now.

A Sonic game is Speed and platforming. Which Generations is doing at the moment, no?

That's a massive, massive oversimplification.

The way that speed is given is subjective. Rolling isn't what makes a Sonic game, it's just a mechanic that was used in the Classics.

The only way I can imagine this comment existing is due to Sega's 10+ years of floundering around once things went 3D, or because you've never really examined the Genesis games. The rolling (and accompanying mechanics) is a pretty fucking major part of the Genesis gameplay, it's not something that can simply be brushed off.

You seem hard to impress!

Personally I find everyone else too easily impressed. Edited August 5, 2011 by Diogenes

[KHCast]

Two problems, pursuing this with Unleashed's gameplay design is either going to run us into a brick wall when we reach the end of its usefulness, or it's going to need to be changed anyway. Second, this is where we should have been 10 years ago. I think I've got the right to be a little impatient.

...the Genesis games didn't help them in the past?

That's nice...but I ordered a cheeseburger. This is Sonic's Burger Joint, right? Where's my Sonic Burger?

You realize "exploration" and "multiple paths" are pretty much the same when it comes to this series, right? At any rate, neither of them are what I was getting at. It's the physics, the momentum, the rolling, something that (even if it is implemented) is going to be constantly sidelined by the boost, at least with the mentality they have now.

That's a massive, massive oversimplification.

The only way I can imagine this comment existing is due to Sega's 10+ years of floundering around once things went 3D, or because you've never really examined the Genesis games. The rolling (and accompanying mechanics) is a pretty fucking major part of the Genesis gameplay, it's not something that can simply be brushed off.

Personally I find everyone else too easily impressed.

Wait,So you think it's wrong for us to Like something you don't? Yes this game looks fun and I think I'll enjoy it for a long time. Is that a problem. I'm not easily impressed I just think for my own reasons that this game will seem fun for me. I do like the classics a lot but I also like this form of sonic gameplay It To me seems to be mixing Sonic adventure gameplay with unleashed which I like. Is that bad for me? Am i wrong for liking it? Now I'm still going to wait because like you said opinions can change.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Hedgehogs Boost

[Diogenes]

I'm not making a value judgment here.

[Nepenthe]

This whole conversation would be a lot less snobbish to me if people didn't inherently disagree on what makes a Sonic game in the first place. My stance is thus: While you need rolling to make a good classically-inclined Sonic game, not all Sonic games need to be classically-inclined to be called Sonic games much less be good games in general. In fact, I take contention with a few of the classics' design tenets in and of themselves anyways.