The mysteries of the Master Emerald: why can't Knuckles be in the games?

[Milo]

Well, no one except Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman knows where the Hidden Palace Zone is, and even though Eggman knows, he hasn't went to that place since S&K, let alone try to steal the emerald since SA2. And sometimes I think Rouge only claims she'll steal the M.E. just to tease Knuckles (when he's around), because aside from SA2 as well that's the only time she actually did try to steal it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, no one except Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman knows where the Hidden Palace Zone is,

And yet in every game, the entire cast from Sonic all the way to GUN never knows exactly where each of the Chaos Emeralds are until they encounter one for them to find the rest. And keeping in mind that the Chaos Emeralds are in a different location in each and every game. Yet somehow they manage to find it, either by luck or because they had the tools to do so.

So people not knowing where the Hidden Palace is located is absolutely no excuse to just let Knuckles go off to help save the world when that practically increases the risk, which is also completely ignoring the fact that Sonic is capable of doing it without his help, and that there's more than enough character to be around to save the world.

Knuckles is not the only person capable of helping Sonic and Tails, and therefore he doesn't need to save the world if it doesn't call for his assistance. And when I say that, I mean he shouldn't be around just to be around when he has duties like other characters do which, for him, is to guard the ME.

and even though Eggman knows, he hasn't went to that place since S&K, let alone try to steal the emerald since SA2.

And so that makes it perfectly okay for Knuckles to leave the island unprotected, when his absence could tell Eggman that the island is completely without it's guardian to protect it? Do you realize how dysfunctional and ridiculous that sounds?

Let me take your words and make an analogy to show you what I'm talking about: No country has bothered to attack the USA directly for years (that's not including terrorists). Because of that, does that make it okay to abolish our armed forces, or reduce our military strength and not worry about a future attack since it hasn't happened in a long time?

And sometimes I think Rouge only claims she'll steal the M.E. just to tease Knuckles (when he's around), because aside from SA2 as well that's the only time she actually did try to steal it.

And that's not an excuse to leave in unprotected either.

Edited August 6, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Milo]

And yet in every game, the entire cast from Sonic all the way to GUN never knows exactly where each of the Chaos Emeralds are until they encounter one for them to find the rest. And keeping in mind that the Chaos Emeralds are in a different location in each and every game. Yet somehow they manage to find it, either by luck or because they had the tools to do so.

So people not knowing where the Hidden Palace is located is absolutely no excuse to just let Knuckles go off to help save the world when that practically increases the risk, which is also completely ignoring the fact that Sonic is capable of doing it without his help, and that there's more than enough character to be around to save the world.

Knuckles is not the only person capable of helping Sonic and Tails, and therefore he doesn't need to save the world if it doesn't call for his assistance. And when I say that, I mean he shouldn't be around just to be around when he has duties like other characters do which, for him, is to guard the ME.

And so that makes it perfectly okay for Knuckles to leave the island unprotected, when his absence could tell Eggman that the island is completely without it's guardian to protect it? Do you realize how dysfunctional and ridiculous that sounds?

Let me take your words and make an analogy to show you what I'm talking about: No country has bothered to attack the USA directly for years (that's not including terrorists). Because of that, does that make it okay to abolish our armed forces, or reduce our military strength and not worry about a future attack since it hasn't happened in a long time?

And that's not an excuse to leave in unprotected either.

I never did say that because of those things I listed, Knuckles should leave his emerald in HPZ unattended. Honestly, I bet Knuckles honestly wouldn't give a **** about what else was happening in the world unless he or the Master Emerald was involved. "Eggman's" and the Black Arms's plans for world domination in Heroes and ShTH could had involved Angel Island and the ME. But I honestly don't know what he was doing in 06 or the handheld games. Maybe he's there just for character/multiplayer filler.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Ananze

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I never did say that because of those things I listed, Knuckles should leave his emerald in HPZ unattended. Honestly, I bet Knuckles honestly wouldn't give a **** about what else was happening in the world unless he or the Master Emerald was involved.

Sounded like you were implying that he shouldn't worry too much about it, but nonetheless...

"Eggman's" and the Black Arms's plans for world domination in Heroes and ShTH could had involved Angel Island and the ME.

I doubt "Eggman"/Metal Sonic actually cared on the count that he never even bothered with the Chaos Emeralds during Heroes. The Black Arms on the other hand might have wanted to take the M.E once they finished conquering Earth, so that's the only time going out to save the world like that would slide. Heck, for all we know, the Black Arms could've invaded Angel Island which provoked him to get involved.

But I honestly don't know what he was doing in 06.

He barely did anything but deliver a message to Sonic and find a Chaos Emerald to revive him. He was hardly necessary for that game.

Edited August 6, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Milo]

He barely did anything but deliver a message to Sonic and find a Chaos Emerald to revive him. He was hardly necessary for that game.

I missed that part. Don't really know the plot of 06 that well anyway.

But I dunno about his appearences in the handheld titles (exclusing Sonic Triple Trouble), though......and I don't know those games well either.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Ananze

[HUNTER297]

Knuckles is in very difficult situation just like Shadow and Silver. Its hard to make them into story. But in Shadow and Silver case we just need to make world crisis to make GUN interested and make Silver go to past in Knuckles case his responsibility is to protect the M.E

Every character have some kind of responsibility: Sonic:Protect world, Shadow:protect world (GUN), Silver:Protect future etc. That makes them easier to involve into story than Knuckles. To make Knuckles involved we need to involve master emerald and next time I see it coming (along with large playable cast) is Sonic Adventure 3.

[Kuzu]

Because Sonic himself is more than capable of saving the world without Knuckles help. And that doesn't even begin to go along with the several other characters who could just as easily help save the world while Knuckles is guarding the ME from further danger.

Not to mention the fact that if he's away and the ME does get stolen, the world would be at an even greater risk. Anyone who has the ME can effectively drain or magnify the Chaos Emeralds or power a doomsday machine with it by itself, and that alone makes it a very potent item.

But what if Sonic isn't more than capable, its shown that he can't handle everything by himself, and even he needs help. And those other characters can be just as busy as Knuckles with their own duties.

And if anyone beat Sonic, what's stopping them from beating Knuckles and taking the M.E.? Knuckles is just one guy, bottom line is there are risks whether he leaves or stays.

Either for the reason you stated, or someone could just rain down an entire army onto the island and level it until they find the thing.

Angel Island is special because not only is it his ancestral home, but it serves as a barrier to prevent it from being stolen in the first place. Every precaution should take place to ensure that the ME isn't in danger, and if he takes it with him, shatters it, or leaves it by itself then it becomes that much easier for someone to steal it or piece it together if they are capable of detecting it in some way. If Knuckles is on the island, it becomes that much harder for someone to steal it, because he knows the place like the back of his hand and can hinder people from getting to the prize.

Put it this way: if the heroes had a Chaos Emerald, shouldn't they make sure they take great measures to keep the villains from getting their hands on it? The same would apply for the ME.

So what if that someone has an airship? I'm not doubting the security of his island, but at the same time someone could do what I mentioned with the army.

Yes, but Knuckles can do that whether he's on the island or not, depending if he takes it with him or not.

Look I've got no problem with him being absent to guard the the thing, but the fact is he's hasn't been relevant to any game for 7 years. ST should either do one of three things:

1. Make the damn Emerald important again, if Knuckles` entire character and motives must revolve around it, and if the emerald is so damn dangerous why isn't it more important? You'd think something that powerful would be the focus of every game considering its possibly the most potent item in the series with its damn near boundless energy.

2. If they're not gonna go with option 1, then just write the damn thing out of the series. It serves no purpose other than giving Knuckles an excuse to why he isn't in a game and honestly Knuckles can be doing a lot more than just looking at a rock all day.

3. Build a security system for the thing; if they're determined to keep it in the series but don't wanna make it important just give an in-game reason as to why he's off and presto: its protected and Knuckles is free to live his own life without being tied down all the time, and of course he can just check on it whenever he can.

[theadvisor1234]

You know, I think I should just release a fan fic I'm currently writing here that covers all these points my own unique way. It certainly would make more sense then what Sonic Team is doing.

[Marcello]

I don't see what's confusing about the Master Emerald.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Marcellof

[theadvisor1234]

I don't see what's confusing about the Master Emerald.

When you really, REALLY think about it, a lot of what we say about it was never explained officially, and are just the musings of the fans. This means that these questions are still quite valid.

[Marcello]

When you really, REALLY think about it, a lot of what we say about it was never explained officially, and are just the musings of the fans. This means that these questions are still quite valid.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Marcellof

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

But what if Sonic isn't more than capable, its shown that he can't handle everything by himself, and even he needs help. And those other characters can be just as busy as Knuckles with their own duties.

Then Sonic is fucked and will have to deal with the consequences himself. If every other charqcter is too busy to help him, thats not much of an incentive for Knux to get involved since he's already busy, now is it? And if it is, then that contradicts every other character being too busy to begin with; if Knuckles can stop what he's doing to help Sonic, so can everyone else.

And if anyone beat Sonic, what's stopping them from beating Knuckles and taking the M.E.? Knuckles is just one guy, bottom line is there are risks whether he leaves or stays.

Sheer dumb luck on their part. That's whats stopping them. Then add to the fact that Angel Island is Knuckles' home turf, and is not going to be easy fight to beat Knuckles when he has a home field advantage, and that's an even lesser risk than going off his island.

Either for the reason you stated, or someone could just rain down an entire army onto the island and level it until they find the thing.

At least he's doing his duty should that happen if he stays on the island and tries to fight it off. I wouldn't bother to question why he fails so long as that part is kept in mind.

So what if that someone has an airship? I'm not doubting the security of his island, but at the same time someone could do what I mentioned with the army.

If someone has an Airship, he should be doing what he suppose to be doing and prepare to defend it from he coming invasion. That's the whole freaking point of why he should be on the island in the first damn place in case it happens.

Yes, but Knuckles can do that whether he's on the island or not, depending if he takes it with him or not.

And he can do it better if he's on the island as oppose to taking it with him and risk having it get stolen if he loses in a fight. Can you not see the difference?

Let me explain: If Knux takes it with him, he only needs to fail once to have it stolen as oppose to keeping it on the island where he can fall back multiple times to continue with another plan to keep the ME safe. So which is the better option here?

The Chaos Emeralds arent the focus of every game, but that doesn't mean they can't be present. Just because something is powerful doesn't mean it should always be present. You don't see the Space Colony ARK being present every time Shadow is involved now do you? Nor do you always see GUN get involved when Rouge is present.

Hell no. That creates the risk of Shoehorning, and writes out one of the major elements that makes Knuckles who he is and unique from the rest of the cast. Thats the same as taking away Silver uniqueness of being from the future, or Tails being a child prodigy, or Shadow's connection to the Ark, GUN and Maria.

If you're going to do that for Knuckles and be okay with shoehorning him, you should do that for every other character lest you be a hypocrite. And to add to that, each character would lose the very things that make them who they are and the things that people love them for as there wouldnt be much of anything unique the character.

All in all, you're just making way and justifying terrible and lazy writing for the sake of having a charqcter around. We've had this damn discussion way too many times in the past about how simply writing things out like that shouldn't be an option because it doesnt do anything to help the character out of that corner and and even more, it completely cowardly when solving the problem isnt even that difficult to begin with. And I've made my points on how you could get him out of that ordeal. How many more times must I repeat them so it gets throught, because I've kept this up for several years straight and I'm not going to stop any time at all.

That's a better option than the second one, except it already exists in the form of the Island it's on and still runs the risk of shoehorning.

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Then Sonic is fucked and will have to deal with the consequences himself. If every other charqcter is too busy to help him, thats not much of an incentive for Knux to get involved since he's already busy, now is it? And if it is, then that contradicts every other character being too busy to begin with; if Knuckles can stop what he's doing to help Sonic, so can everyone else.

Sheer dumb luck on their part. That's whats stopping them. Then add to the fact that Angel Island is Knuckles' home turf, and is not going to be easy fight to beat Knuckles when he has a home field advantage, and that's an even lesser risk than going off his island.

At least he's doing his duty should that happen if he stays on the island and tries to fight it off. I wouldn't bother to question why he fails so long as that part is kept in mind.

If someone has an Airship, he should be doing what he suppose to be doing and prepare to defend it from he coming invasion. That's the whole freaking point of why he should be on the island in the first damn place in case it happens.

And he can do it better if he's on the island as oppose to taking it with him and risk having it get stolen if he loses in a fight. Can you not see the difference?

Let me explain: If Knux takes it with him, he only needs to fail once to have it stolen as oppose to keeping it on the island where he can fall back multiple times to continue with another plan to keep the ME safe. So which is the better option here?

The Chaos Emeralds arent the focus of every game, but that doesn't mean they can't be present. Just because something is powerful doesn't mean it should always be present. You don't see the Space Colony ARK being present every time Shadow is involved now do you? Nor do you always see GUN get involved when Rouge is present.

Hell no. That creates the risk of Shoehorning, and writes out one of the major elements that makes Knuckles who he is and unique from the rest of the cast. Thats the same as taking away Silver uniqueness of being from the future, or Tails being a child prodigy, or Shadow's connection to the Ark, GUN and Maria.

If you're going to do that for Knuckles and be okay with shoehorning him, you should do that for every other character lest you be a hypocrite. And to add to that, each character would lose the very things that make them who they are and the things that people love them for as there wouldnt be much of anything unique the character.

All in all, you're just making way and justifying terrible and lazy writing for the sake of having a charqcter around. We've had this damn discussion way too many times in the past about how simply writing things out like that shouldn't be an option because it doesnt do anything to help the character out of that corner and and even more, it completely cowardly when solving the problem isnt even that difficult to begin with. And I've made my points on how you could get him out of that ordeal. How many more times must I repeat them so it gets throught, because I've kept this up for several years straight and I'm not going to stop any time at all.

That's a better option than the second one, except it already exists in the form of the Island it's on and still runs the risk of shoehorning.

Ya know what..I'm not even gonna try anymore, I think its pretty clear that you're not gonna concede...and I admire that, I even respect you for it.

If Knuckles` entire character and motives must revolve around the emerald at all times, then so be it. Shame really..a character with so much potential wasting away on an island with nothing to do, because the people who write him are too stupid/lazy to find away to work around this. I mean what's the point of creating this all powerful item which is obviously important, if you're not gonna use it?

At this point I've accepted that Knuckles just isn't as big as he used to be, and hell he may never be, should the writing at ST continue its shoddy ways. Alas poor echidna.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Ya know what..I'm not even gonna try anymore, I think its pretty clear that you're not gonna concede...and I admire that, I even respect you for it.

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[batson]

Shame really..a character with so much potential wasting away on an island with nothing to do, because the people who write him are too stupid/lazy to find away to work around this.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, i think we all know that in actuality, Knuckles undoubtably still have a better chance at making major appearances than probably all other characters sans a certain three, despite being one of the few characters in the series with an in-universe "excuse" not to get involved with each and every adventure. Ultimately, Knuckles ties to the Master Emerald has probably never once made a game developer say "you know guys, maybe we should leave Knux out of this one, i mean how are we gonna explain why hes away from his green rock?". In other words, Sega themselves seem perfectly comfortable with ignoring the Matser Emerald altogether for the sake of Knuckles making an apperance, even if fans love to complain when that happens.

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[batson]

Well you know what? Don't ever go asking any questions as to why Shadow, Blaze, or Silver get involved for the sake of making an appearance if you're okay with Knuckles being around for no reason. So I shouldn't hear anything that so much as sounds like you thinking they're pleasing the fanboys, ignoring the character's history, having nothing to do with the plot, and being around just to be around, because I'm gonna hold that against you from this point forward and call you out on hypocrisy if I see any signs of it. And don't get fussy when I do because I warned you.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I dont recall ever having said anything about being annoyed by any of those characters making apperances (even in the cases when it doesnt make sense), or for that matter, being annoyed by it in the first place. So i dont see why i would do that in the future. Supporting characters making apperances has never bothered me (what does bother me is when Sega for no reason creates new characters that completely pushes other major characters that have been around longer out of the spotlight. But of course you already know that, and its a different topic altogether...).

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Sami]

I'm of the opinion that they just need to give Knuckles a friend to watch the emerald while he goes adventuring with Sonic and Tails. He's a treasure hunter, is he not? Let that be his main thing, rather than being guardian of the emerald.

They could bring Chaos back to guard it or something.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm of the opinion that they just need to give Knuckles a friend to watch the emerald while he goes adventuring with Sonic and Tails. He's a treasure hunter, is he not? Let that be his main thing, rather than being guardian of the emerald.

Except when was the last time we've actually seen Knuckles go treasure hunting for anything other than Emerald pieces or something to help him get the emerald pieces? I'd believe the treasure hunting angle if they did more showing rather than telling.

That, and treasure hunting is not anything Sonic and Tails would bother with. So you're going to need something a lot stronger than having him treasure hunting to be able to follow Sonic and Tails.

They could bring Chaos back to guard it or something.

Better idea: Make Sonic Chronicles canon and use Shade instead, and heck they could even alternate who guards the Emerald to give Shade some spotlight. I got plenty more ideas than that.

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Marcello]

It doesn't even have to be someone else guarding it. Him leaving the Emerald unguarded could be a plot point in it getting stolen.

We know Knuckles is a bit jealous of Sonic's freedom, so why not let make a rash decision and choose to go out on an adventure with Sonic without thinking of the possible consequences?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It doesn't even have to be someone else guarding it. Him leaving the Emerald unguarded could be a plot point in it getting stolen.

I honestly wouldn't mind that. I would actually encourage that, and all the other things in this argument being a plot point.

Of course, that just means that the Emerald has an even lesser chance of getting written out, along with the other things I've said. Still, it would be interesting to see that as part of the plot.

[batson]

Good to hear, but I'm saying that to cover every step you take in this matter just in case. I hold people accountable to their words just like I hold myself accountable for mine.

But that something you should still keep in mind. So if Knuckles get's the minor role compared to a different character, remember those words because I'm going to be ready to say them.

Like i said, i cant imagine i will ever get annoyed merely by a character making an apperance. However, if Knuckles were to continuously (and thats a key word here: continuously) get less screen time and appearances than other, much less significant characters, that would annoy me immensly and i would not be afraid to say so. And by all means, you could feel free to criticize me and complain about how im not being, in your opinion, "objective" (which is what you obviously perceive and genuinely believe your own opinions as being, which also happens the one thing about you that really annoys me, if you dont mind me saying so).

Edited August 7, 2011 by batson

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Like i said, i cant imagine i will ever get annoyed merely by a character making an apperance. However, if Knuckles were to continuously (and thats a key word here: continuously) get less screen time and appearances than other, much less significant characters, that would annoy me immensly and i would not be afraid to say so.

And that's where I will say "because they felt like it".

And by all means, you could feel free to criticize me and complain about how im not being, in your opinion, "objective" (which is what you obviously perceive and genuinely believe your own opinions as being, which also happens the one thing about you that really annoys me, if you dont mind me saying so).

I don't, because I have preferences like everyone else. Some of those preferences being "balance", "dynamic" and "esoteric" that takes the highest priority. But I am objective to the point that I don't put my personal interests in front all the time and I'm not that inflexible; I've even argued in places where the ME wouldn't matter and where Knuckles could've gotten involved without it.

And I would be more than happy to go through all 3972 posts of mine in order to find where I said that, and as an added bonus I can pull up the solutions I've said more than once that could free Knuckles from being too reliant on the ME for his character.

Edited August 7, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kamicciolo]

I don't, because I have preferences like everyone else. Some of those preferences being "balance", "dynamic" and "esoteric"...

Knuckles isn't a food CSS :V.

Though in all seriousness, why does everyone make it seem like the Master Emerald alone has to be Knuckles' entire motivation, when he also protects a massive island probably swimming in hidden treasure and historical echidnan artefacts. You could easily come up with plot-lines where either some greedy sod (like the Babylon Rogues) or some up-and-coming villain wanting to establish a base manages to kick Knuckles off the island and he has to work his way back up and take them out. Yeah the Emerald is still a big worry for him, but it becomes part of a bigger picture this way.

Although that's just an example, I'd be happy with even a really flimsy justification like him coming off the island just to collect his messages than to have him just show up for the sake of it.