The mysteries of the Master Emerald: why can't Knuckles be in the games?

[Kuzu]

Did you completely miss where I said I had a few ways to get him out of that mess? And that I've said it once before in the past? The only reason I keep him tied to the Emerald is to keep him from being shoehorned and to avoid having that be done to all the other characters.

If you want Knuckles to be more involved, make a solution that is unique to Knuckles, and only Knuckles, so that no other character can fall back on the same solution to get them out of their ruts. It actually helps build the character as opposed to throwing them a bone out of fanservice alone.

[batson]

But I am objective to the point that I don't put my personal interests in front all the time

Edited August 7, 2011 by batson

[Diogenes]

(Granted, at this point there are very few recurring villains the the series, but whos to say Sega couldnt come up with a couple of new ones?).

[Kuzu]

And if they ever do, Eggman's status should be reconsidered.

[Ekajra]

Better idea: Make Sonic Chronicles canon and use Shade instead, and heck they could even alternate who guards the Emerald to give Shade some spotlight. I got plenty more ideas than that.

I like Chronicles and all, but I think the problem with this is that it's set in some vague future "many years" after they've beaten Eggman and he didn't come back right away. The way I think about it is that it's like the end of the series, and whatever Sonic games come out until SEGA stops making them would take place before that time when Robotnik is beaten "for good" and everyone goes their separate ways.

But other than that, yay Shade.

What this all really comes down to is that Angel Island and the Master Emerald are at the core of what makes Knuckles who he is. For the majority of his life he lived alone on the island and the only thing he knew was that he had to protect it. So you can't just brush all that away because it will destroy Knuckles' character. It's not too hard to get Knuckles involved in the plot; you just need to get Angel Island or the Master Emerald involved somehow. The other side of this is that means he can't be in as many games, or the plot will get stale. Another option, in between him never leaving the island and him just showing up for no reason is to have him not become involved until halfway through the game or later. Something happens where they need his particular set of skills (strength, Chaos energy sensitivity, knowledge of ancient ruins/languages, etc.) and so Sonic and Tails hop in the Tornado and go ask for his help. Or he finds out what's going on himself and deems it a threat to his island and decides to get involved himself, but, once again, we wouldn't see him until later in the plot.

The average time frame of a Sonic game is a few days, so it really isn't that big of a deal for Knuckles to leave the island for a bit if he knows he's already fighting the current villain. Just don't use him so often that we start to question if he's actually doing his job. Maybe only get him involved every few main games (spin-offs are a whole other thing, just throw him in there whenever), and that way his absences from the island are a bit more reasonable.

Actually, an idea just came to me in the middle of that last paragraph. Knuckles gets involved in the plot because Eggman/Nega/Rogue-Doppelganger-Machines/Ganondorf are threatening a lot more damage than usual (Unleashed actually would have been a perfect game for Knuckles to get involved in, considering how much Chaos Emerald/Ancient Temple things were going on) and they haven't made any moves for the Master Emerald yet. But then, whilst Knux is off helping Sonic and being all awesome and heroic, Eggman/Nega/Rogue-Doppelganger-Machines/Ganondorf attacks Angel Island and steals the Emerald/builds an evil base. I think that would be a bit interesting, plus it would likely lead to some nice banter between Sonic and Knuckles.

[theadvisor1234]

Let Mighty guard the M.E. It gives him an excuse for not being in the games Knuckles appears in without explaining his absense from Angel Island.

[Kuzu]

Let Mighty guard the M.E. It gives him an excuse for not being in the games Knuckles appears in without explaining his absense from Angel Island.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Shadic93

[theadvisor1234]

But like other people have said(And will continue saying), Angel Island and the M.E. are huge parts of Knuckles` character, whether we like it or not. Knuckles simply giving up his role to someone else to go out adventuring with Sonic & Tails would be the same as Eggman giving up being a villain, Sonic quitting as a hero, Tails giving up mechanics, or Amy giving up on Sonic. Its a key character trait, as much as I hate how much it drags him down, its something can't just be passed on to someone else.

[Kuzu]

Well sure, but since Sonic Team's already messed THAT up, might as well do whatever.

[theadvisor1234]

That would make things worse than they already are.

[Kuzu]

Which makes it a good thing that I'm not being the least bit serious right now.

We should also make a giant killer robot..ok we're getting off topic.

But what I said is true though, simply abandoning them wouldn't really solve anything, because as I said their key parts of his character.

[theadvisor1234]

We should also make a giant killer robot..ok we're getting off topic.

But what I said is true though, simply abandoning them wouldn't really solve anything, because as I said their key parts of his character.

I know that, and you know that, but the problem is many fans don't know that.

[Kuzu]

I know that, and you know that, but the problem is many fans don't know that.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Haven't made an apocalyptically long post in a while. Been a long time since I shared my thought process with someone else.

No, but one instance where you do put your own interests in front just as much as me or anyone else whenever the topic comes up is when the question regarding what characters in the series are main characters are being discussed. What i am refering to here is your idea of which characters you think should appear in each and every game and which ones you think should take turns appearing. Your idea that Sonic and Eggman should be the only characters that should not have to sit out games in order to give other characters a chance to shine is just as much based on your preferences as, for example, the idea that Tails and Knuckles should belong to that group as well. I dont mean that i think Eggman is secretly your favorite character or anything, but its nevertheless an opinion based on your own preferences since its based on the perception, your perception (and yes, i am aware, the perception of many others as well) that the basic, fundamental core of the series is the battle between Sonic and Eggman.

Edited August 8, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

I'll get onto Shadic93's comment once someone makes a post after me.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Ironic on how I'm gonna be the one who does it.

Edited August 8, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

My freshman year, my first research essay in English Comp was on analyzing the pros and cons of Single-Sex Schools and Mixed Gender Schools...It spaned 9 pages. I got an A+ on it. And I still have the file.

Kind of ironic since I'm doing Computer Science that does programming and mathematics.

[batson]

Haven't made an apocalyptically long post in a while. Been a long time since I shared my thought process with someone else.

That's really not my interest (well not entirely, anyway. I'll say that) than it is my preference of things so that no one group of fans can claim they have the high ground regarding the characters they like being the main ones. If I had things my way, there would likely be a lot more risk taking. Kind of a good thing we have discussions, so that I know where to tone things down.

But that claim has a little more to do with the fandom than the actual characters. I don't like Shadow being presented or liked as this unbeatable character that everyone else should worship and look incredibly weak to (not that they don't since he can be beaten); I don't like Shadow, Tails, or Knuckles being overworshipped more to the point that anyone who doesn't like said character is seen as having inferior interests; I don't like people making a criteria over what qualifies as a main character and use that to justify said character's position only for them to turn around and claim that another character doesn't fit it even if they match the qualifications laid out because they simply dislike the character. So the way I see it, I say to everyone "Fuck that" and make everyone bar Sonic and Eggman as secondary characters, so that said characters aren't used as part of a dick-waving contest over who deserves what when no character deserves anything to begin with. And if you want, you can even stretch that to Sonic and Eggman, because I'll agree with that since it makes everyone equally worthless.

But what DO I want? I want people to like which ever character catches their interests and like them for those merits instead of overworshipping them akin to fanboys; I want people to be able to dislike which ever character falls from their standards and do so without acting like that character is inferior simply out of dislike alone; I want people to acknowledge and discuss character's flaws and strengths without acting like one character is superior or inferior because they like/dislike a character more than the other and so on without acting like it is something to go tearing at one's throat over. Naturally, that ridiculously high standard isn't going to come at all, so the best I can do is apply that to myself and hope I influence some people to think near that level. And even if some refuse to do so, I never will, and I will continue to voice my thoughts on it the same way you are voicing yours to me until I see a moment to alter it.

Actually, yes he does, for the simple fact that unlike Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Charmy, or any other supporting character, he's a villain as you already laid out in the bold. For me to accept that view of Eggman not being any more necessary than all the others, the Sonic series has to be solely about a teenage hedgehog who gets into adventures, without the "fight villains" part as that still makes a complete loophole around that view.

Nope, and here's the explaination as to why.

Exactly how many recurring villains do we have that are still active and at the very least acknowledged as part of the canon? Going through the list of all the villains in the main series:

• Eggman: Still an active villain
  
• Metal Sonic: Active villain
  
  • Currently subservient to Eggman and is no longer capable of acting on it's own
    
  • Chaos: Turned good
    
    • was only a villain because of the harm caused to the Chao by Knuckles' ancestral clan
      
    • Shadow: Turned (somewhat) good
      
    • Prof. Gerald: Dead
      
      • Initially good, but went insane, and his only act of villainy was stopped dead in its tracks
        
      • Black Doom: (Presumably) Dead
        
        • Black Arms as a race was completely wiped out, so Doom would have to fight by himself with very little support due to being dependent on the Black Comet only if he's actually still alive
          

        [*]Mephiles/Iblis/Solaris: Wiped out of existance

        [*]Dark Gaia: Sealed under the earth for another million years (and is presumably killed by Super Sonic

        [*]Breaking the earth again could bring him back, except the same results would likely happen unless Eggman can find a way to get the energy by himself since Sonic would likely have been smart enough to keep his guard up next time.

        If you want to stretch and use EVERY villain that's well known in the game series, then that's where you have some much better luck, because:

        [*]Eggman Nega: Active villain

        [*]Imperator Ix: Active villain

        [*]Still trapped in the Twilight Cage, but can make a way to escape

        [*]Erazor: Trapped for an eternity in his lamp

        [*]Merlina: Turned good

        So believe me when I say this: If we get more recurring villains in the main games, then I will (not might, I WILL) put Eggman and all those other villains to the same standard and have Sonic be the only main character necessary. It'll be like Batman with his villians: every villain is incredibly dangerous in their own way, but will be a certain Archenemy that's more prominent even if the other villains can be a much bigger threat making Eggman the Joker to Sonic's Batman.

        Or hell, we can even go a Spider-man route and have more than one if other villains are made as such. I personally favor the Batman route.

        ...no idea why I felt the need to link to Tv Tropes.

        Pretty much why I haven't made that claim...although if I have, and you can find where I did, I'll completely recant those statements. Heck, I've even said at some points that I think another character should be the one to wind up saving the world despite Sonic being the star character. I remember Big being one of the candidates in that claim.

        And I won't support "Tails and Knuckles being main characters" unless Shadow is allowed to be one as well, his flaws and reception be damned...which is ironic considering that I've already claimed him, Tails, and Knuckles as secondaries.

        If you want to put it that way, I'm most definitely not above putting Sonic and Eggman as being completely unnecessary either.

        Tell me what else is new. I've actually made that clear in the OP of my "Status Quo" topic.

        Then I guess that makes me pretty narcissistic. Wouldn't be the first time someone has called or implied me of being that, and I can't say I disagree with it either.

        But I can certainly say this: at least my opinion has everyone in mind in regards to the character's they like more than others. Whether you see that as a good or bad thing, that's up to you to make out, but I personally see it as a good thing that let's everyone have a fair share of the pie as oppose to having someone hog the whole thing. And if someone does get more, then I'll make sure others get more of the next pie so that everyone doesn't feel left with the crumbs every time.

        I'd go further with this analogy, but I'll leave it this way to keep this post from being any longer.

        Edit: Oh, hold on...

        "Esoteric" has nothing to do with food, genius.

        I'll get onto Shadic93's comment once someone makes a post after me.

        You know, afte reading all that, i admit that your opinions make sense to me. I dont exactly agree with them, but i do feel it all makes sense.

        The one thing about your opinions regarding this issue that i in the past have always felt was hypocritical was that for all you ideas of equall treatment regarding the supporting characters, you always allowed Eggman to be the one character besides Sonic that should be considered more than a mere supporting character. I always realized of course that you based this idea on the fact that Eggman is the prime antagonist, but like i said in my previous post, there is nothing that says he has the be the most recurring villain anymore than there is something that says that a certain few of Sonics friends has to be the most recurring supporting protagonists.

        But now i realize that you only hold on to this notion because of practical circumstances; namely that you dont believe that any of the series other villains would actually be used as recurring antagonists. And im glad to hear you say that if other recurring villains would indeed start appearing, you would drop the idea that Eggman is the only truly important character besides Sonic. This gives the whole "equall treatment" point of view a lot more consistency.

        ...however (sorry for being a pain in the ass, but i just cant resist pondering about this ) one could still say that is is a bit of a double standard to allow Eggman to be considered a main character due to practical circumstances and yet not allow the same logic to apply to other characters. What i mean is this:

        Lets say that we consider Eggman a main character because he is the most frequently appearing antagonist. We all know that he wouldnt have to be this, Sega could just dust of one of their other old villains and have him appear in each and every game (like have Black Doom pop back up and say "Hey guys! Guys who survived!!!"), but we all know that in actuality, they most likely wont. And so, we consider Eggman as one of the main characters due to how Sega has used and keep use him much more frequently than any other villain.

        But then, this logic could also be applied to certain protagonists in the series. Tails would be the most obvious example, being by far the most frequently appearing good guy next to Sonic himself, both historically and in the present day. Sega could choose to let any other character (like, lets say, Big) appear just as frequently or even more frequently than Tails from now on, but we all know that they wont. So it seems to me like the same principles that dictates that Eggman is a main character could be used to claim that Tails is one as well. See what i mean here? Saying that Eggman is a main character because he is perhapes the only viable recurring antagonist doesnt seem much different to me than saying that Tails is a main character for being the only character viable as being the most recurring secondary protagonist/sidekick.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You know, afte reading all that, i admit that your opinions make sense to me. I dont exactly agree with them, but i do feel it all makes sense.

The one thing about your opinions regarding this issue that i in the past have always felt was hypocritical was that for all you ideas of equall treatment regarding the supporting characters, you always allowed Eggman to be the one character besides Sonic that should be considered more than a mere supporting character. I always realized of course that you based this idea on the fact that Eggman is the prime antagonist, but like i said in my previous post, there is nothing that says he has the be the most recurring villain anymore than there is something that says that a certain few of Sonics friends has to be the most recurring supporting protagonists.

But now i realize that you only hold on to this notion because of practical circumstances; namely that you dont believe that any of the series other villains would actually be used as recurring antagonists. And im glad to hear you say that if other recurring villains would indeed start appearing, you would drop the idea that Eggman is the only truly important character besides Sonic. This gives the whole "equall treatment" point of view a lot more consistency.

Well I say I don't play favorites for a reason. I may like one thing better than another, but I can't base it off of a sheer liking alone.

I'm only trying to be fair here regarding what can be used and what should be kept in mind. It wouldn't be fair of me to put Shadow in every game and have him replace Knuckles simply because I want him to get more screentime, nor would it be fair if I wanted him in over Knuckles just because I thought he was the cooler character, now would it? Same would apply vice versa and so on.

So I keep the traits and occupations of the characters in mind so that I keep myself and others from wanting one character in just to have them in. Basically, if I'm going to have a character, I'm going to keep in mind whatever restrictions and risks that come with the character; if the character I want to use falls outside of the restrictions and such that I have in mind, I'm not going to use the character no matter how much I like them.

...however (sorry for being a pain in the ass, but i just cant resist pondering about this ) one could still say that is is a bit of a double standard to allow Eggman to be considered a main character due to practical circumstances and yet not allow the same logic to apply to other characters.

It's best to be practical than to be impractical, tho. The latter carries a bad connotation for a reason.

Not to mention that the same logic does apply to other characters so long as it isn't a measure of whether someone likes a character more than the other and more about what this character had wrong in terms of use and portrayal and how to fix it and/or what is this character capable of doing and how can they do it within their restrictions. If you're going to say that character Y should be around to help character X save the world, that's not a very strong reason to have Y around when character Z is just as capable of being around to save the world to the same measure that you would want character Y around.

And it becomes what you know I happen to refer to as "favoritism" when you deny character Z from equally being around simply because you like character Y more, or because you hate what character Z was involved in from a previous adventure and don't want to see him again.

Then it becomes ridiculous when people try to argue on a matter of seniority. For example: the belief that the earth was flat pre-dates the belief that the earth was round, but does that make the former belief more credible simply because it came first? So how does that make anything else more credible simply because it's been around longer, when there is more than just that factor involved regarding the characters?

I could even argue it another way regarding analogies, but I'll leave it at this point. This post is long enough as it is.

What i mean is this:

Lets say that we consider Eggman a main character because he is the most frequently appearing antagonist. We all know that he wouldnt have to be this, Sega could just dust of one of their other old villains and have him appear in each and every game (like have Black Doom pop back up and say "Hey guys! Guys who survived!!!"), but we all know that in actuality, they most likely wont. And so, we consider Eggman as one of the main characters due to how Sega has used and keep use him much more frequently than any other villain.

But then, this logic could also be applied to certain protagonists in the series. Tails would be the most obvious example, being by far the most frequently appearing good guy next to Sonic himself, both historically and in the present day. Sega could choose to let any other character (like, lets say, Big) appear just as frequently or even more frequently than Tails from now on, but we all know that they wont. So it seems to me like the same principles that dictates that Eggman is a main character could be used to claim that Tails is one as well. See what i mean here? Saying that Eggman is a main character because he is perhapes the only viable recurring antagonist doesnt seem much different to me than saying that Tails is a main character for being the only character viable as being the most recurring secondary protagonist/sidekick.

But here's an even bigger problem, and something I wouldn't have expected to lead to this point: when you go even further to the extremes of that logic, it outright SHATTERS the notion of any character being a main character and could just as much be used to hinder Knuckles from appearing even more than what I laid out and even more than I would ever want to restrict the character. It's less of a gray area, and more of an anarchic one as it creates less order and more of a "throw in whatever" and follows the same extreme it was trying to fight against in the first place but for entirely different reasons.

If Eggman being the only viable recurring antagonist isn't any different from making Tails a main because he's a viable recurring secondary protagonist, then it very much makes any character a main character by a conjunction of how viable they are to begin with and how much they've appeared overall.

Let me highlight it this way:

Knuckles debuted in 1994 and appeared in 3 other main games before Shadow made his debut in 2001, with the latter character appearing in 4 titles overall to the former's 7. We know who's made the most appearances, but now comes the question of who's the most viable. Shadow is capable of traveling to any part of the globe as much as Sonic can and make whatever happens become his business, perhaps even more so since he works for GUN which happens to keep track of activities that happen across the globe. Where as Knuckles is the Guardian of a powerful item that's kept on a floating continent that he has to keep safe from people trying to steal. So then there's a confliction: Knuckles appeared more than Shadow, but Shadow is more viable than Knuckles.

The deeper you go, the more likely you won't be able to get anywhere with the character that you wanted. In other words, you've essentially made an even bigger mess from a rather simple one.

Edited August 10, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

.....Wait what are we talking about?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

.....Wait what are we talking about?

Pretty much the use of Knuckles in the games. It just has a load of comparing and contrasting in where to use him.

[Kuzu]

Pretty much the use of Knuckles in the games. It just has a load of comparing and contrasting in where to use him.

Isn't just as simple as him actually contributing to the plot?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Isn't just as simple as him actually contributing to the plot?

If the same could be said for other characters, then yes. Otherwise, it turns into it's own form of politics.

[Kuzu]

If the same could be said for other characters, then yes. Otherwise, it turns into it's own form of politics.

The same thing can be said for the other characters though, part of the problem with the games before 06 was that they were filled with characters who had no place in the plot at all.

I mean Shadow's game is about him discovering his past, yet Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Espio, Charmy, Vector, Rouge, Omega all them show up despite having nothing to do with his past at all, hell most of those I listed didn't even know him from Sa2.

Its the same deal with 06.

By actually making Knuckles apart of the plot and action and actually doing something, he feels less forced and shoehorned.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The same thing can be said for the other characters though, part of the problem with the games before 06 was that they were filled with characters who had no place in the plot at all.

I mean Shadow's game is about him discovering his past, yet Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Espio, Charmy, Vector, Rouge, Omega all them show up despite having nothing to do with his past at all, hell most of those I listed didn't even know him from Sa2.

Except you completely forgot that, in the middle of all that, there's a freaking alien invasion occuring across the entire globe. That's as much of an incentive for each and everyone of them to get involved as part of Shadow's past involves said alien invasion and having the invasion be stopped.

And that's partly why that game is one of the exceptions for Knuckles to be off his island, since there's hardly a place were you don't see the Black Arms involved or something that doesn't have their hand in the influence with some exceptions.

Its the same deal with 06.

Not exactly. Silver and Blaze happen to be involved because they're affected by what happens in the present when a monster is unleashed.

Shadow and Rouge get involved when a mission of theirs go deeper and has them try to avert part of said monster from destroying all existence while having Omega come along to help stop it as well.

Sonic is practically on a wild goose chase protecting a princess, but said princess is the container of a monster that affects Silver and Blaze's time.

Tails, Amy, and Knuckles could probably be seen as there for no reason. Amy tends to get overlooked since she's always around looking for Sonic in someway, yet she does a bit of contributing. Tails does his usual sidekick role, and I'd likely be more critical of him since I can't remember much of what he contributed. Knuckles stood out because I remember what he barely contributed, the most he did was deliver a letter to Sonic from Eggman, get sucked into the future with Sonic and Tails and finding a way back, and then finding an emerald to revive Sonic.

Of course, if I'm going to look for faults in Sonic 06 where Tails and Amy weren't necessary, I'd have to torture myself in watching the clips from Sonic 06 again...oh well, I'll get back to that when I'm finished with the scenes.

By actually making Knuckles apart of the plot and action and actually doing something, he feels less forced and shoehorned.

As could anyone else. But that completely ignores other circumstances that relate to the character for them to be involved.

There's a reason why I didn't question Knuckles being off the island in ShTH, and yet I was critical of that in other games like Heroes and Sonic 06.

Edited August 10, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic