Are you happy with Seaside Hill Zone?

[Legendary Emerald]

Gamescom trailer has the official reveal, original topic name restored

~ Carbo

Lots of discussion on this issue in the Chemical Plant thread. If its going to continue, I'd like to not interrupt the CP people anymore.

Anyways, my last post on the matter was this (in regards to someone saying they wished for Heroes' casino zone instead, pointing to a video of the SASR stage):

The casino levels in Sonic and Sega All Star Racing were plain and boring looking. It's a problem when the Gamecube version of the zone looks more visually interesting than the PS3 version.

That said, Casino Park is the only other level from Heroes that I would have been happy with, provided they did it better than SASR. In general, Heroes just had very borin,g derivative level designs. "Ooh, another orange canyon level with rails. Ooh, another city. Ooh, another sky fortress. Ooh, another... haunted castle? Okay, well that's original. But also fucking weird."

Seaside Hill is aesthetically a very pleasing level, due to the mixture of both rolling hills, stone architecture, and rippling water. It didn't look anything like levels from the Sonic Adventure series, and any resemblance to Green Hill zone was intentional as opposed to uncreative. There is a reason the level pops up in the All Star games; its more visually interesting to look at in 3D than a remodeled Green Hill zone. Or at least thats what I think.

Anyways, we will be getting a bit of casino flavor with the pre-order bonus/dlc, so I've got absolutely nothing to be upset about at the moment. I don't even care about missing Ice Cap zone, since we already had Holoska in Unleashed. Though it would have been awesome to hear the modern remix for such a level.

[Diogenes]

Seaside Hill is just GHZ 2.0. The game's already overloaded with city stages, we don't need space wasted on GHZ-alikes too.

[KHCast]

How exactly were the Casino levels Plain and boring? To me they were very colorful and vibrant compared to the GC version. There was so much going on in those race tracks. I would have preferred Casino park or Egg fleet over this but I can still live with this.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Hedgehogs Boost

[EXshad]

At this point, I don't really care, I just wish they renamed it Ocean Palace since it's more or less based off that stage anyway. Plus, I find Seaside Hill's music kinda boring and bland, whereas Ocean Palace's is one of my favorite Sonic tracks of all time, but it's going to get shelved simply since it's named "Seaside Hill". Plus, there IS a bit of alliteration with all the "Hills" and "Cities" in the level titles, so yeah..

Anyhow, I explained myself in more detail here:

[Indigo Rush]

I'd have rather seen Casino Park, for the sake of a proper sparkling neon pinball level. However, I'm not going to gripe and nitpick on the similarities when the potential to differentiate SSH from GHZ is so great. People are certainly making a bigger deal out of it than they should. SSH is going to be the ruins/beach/water level. Of course the designers are going to make it as different as possible. Any "problems" are in the complainer's head being magnified to unrealistic proportions.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Blue Blood]

Seaside Hill is just GHZ 2.0. The game's already overloaded with city stages, we don't need space wasted on GHZ-alikes too.

That's what it was intended to be in Heroes, and it was a pretty awesome homage. But with GHZ already in the game, you really don't need anything else similar.

They really dropped the ball it came to choosing the level themes, and God knows why. There's a a lack of representation for all the different tropes in the series. Even if City Escape, Rooftop Run, Crisis and Speed Highway are all very different cities, they're still city stages. AAUK confirmed that the poll on Facebook was part of their research for the level selection, but however they came to deciding upon the final list must have been flawed. Individually all the stages in Generations are really cool. Collectively they're a bit, no, very unadventurous and samey.

Any "problems" are in the complainer's head being magnified to unrealistic proportions.

Oh please, get off your high horse! People express disappointment > Other people argue there's nothing to be disappointed about > Debate/argument grows > Suddenly the unhappy crowd is making a big deal over nothing... apparently. Happens every time, with everything. This attitude needs to stop.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Blue Blood

[sonfan1984]

Why do we need an topic just talking about this stage?

And no, I'm not entirely happy with the stage. We've already got it for Sonic and Sega All Stars Racing and Mario and Sonic games already.

[Eternal EX]

I personally did not like the Casino levels from heroes but I would not say they were boring. Bingo highway was a great stage even though I spent a good chunk of the stage rolling downhill through numbers and bouncy things. As for casino park, I just didn't like it. It ended up being one of my least favorite stage from the game. Now in All stars racing, it was a fantastic stage. Same went for Bingo highway. I loved playing them but I hated facing the cheating computer. Even the awesomeness of the Eggman or Shadow would get cheated by the like prick alex kidd.

Question, doesn't this technically count as a spoiler topic for the people who is trying to avoid spoiler certain levels in the game? Meaning there should've been a HUGE spoiler notice on the topic before entering it.

[Neon]

No.

I've repeated myself so many times about it that i just can't be bothered saying it again.

Seaside Hill was the worst stage they could of chosen from Heroes. Casino Park/Bingo Highway would of been a much better choice. Seeing the illuminated, neon casino seemingly floating above the brightly lit city below in the starry sky.

I'm just going to leave this here.

How can anyone seriously say they'd prefer another Green Hill, when we could of had this? *Sigh* There's always DLC.

Unfortunately, since SSH is here to stay, ST should try differentiated it as much as possible.

If Sonic Team can somehow incorporate the ocean tunnel seen in

i'll be a happy bunny. If not, i don't think i can say they've differentiated it enough. Edited September 17, 2011 by Neon

[Eternal EX]

+1 neon just for video. Does that not tell you that the stage could be awesome?

[Spooky Mulder]

Yes. Personally, I love SeasideHill/Ocean Palace and it looks to be a unique well designed level. On it's own, Casino Park would have probably made a great stage, but I'm glad they didn't choose it to be honest. As Blue Blood said, they dropped the ball completely on the level tropes, which is actually why I'm glad they selected Seaside Hill rather than Casino Park. Allow me to explain...

I know the Sonic series has a plethora of tropes and there's no way top include all of them, however almost all of the various tropes can be categorized very simply into Nature and Non-Nature levels. Without Seaside Hill, all of the zones between Green Hill and Planet Wisp would be Non-Nature themed levels. I think that would just be a very odd thing. If the other zones had offered a little more variety in this department I would be fine with a Casino themed stage.

That being said, I don't think that's the reason it was selected. I think Seaside Hill's inclusion is a cheap way of appeasing critics and classic fanboys. Seaside Hill is unquestionably one of the most classical-looking stages to appear since the actual classic series. Seaside Hill was probably chosen so that people who are prejudiced against the more modern stages have an extra zone; to the casual observer Seaside Hill Generations could easily be a remake of a Classic zone.

[EXshad]

I might as well try to justify why Sonic Team chose the levels they did for this game.. even if we don't like certain aspects of the list, like me, I might as well try to explain what they were considering when picking them.

The first 5 stages were simply picked by fan choice. The poll on facebook covered Sonics 1 through Adventure 2, thus explaining why these levels were chosen. And overall, I think they chose wisely: we got an opening forest level, a chemical factory/water stage, ruins in the sky, a HIGHWAY stage (which I consider different from a city stage.. so long as the "At Dawn" segment is heavily downplayed), and a city stage. Plus, Stardust Speedway made it in for the Metal Sonic boss fight

For Seaside Hill, like I said in the Chemical Plant topic, it was probably chosen because HD models, textures, and the like were already made for SASASR, and they could probably access those assets for this game. Plus, they probably want a lush, green-themed level for each era, to keep things balanced. Again, I think it's lazy, but whatever.

Crisis City was chosen for a few reasons, I believe: 1. to include a fire-themed level in the game, 2. to create a burning, ruined version of the previous city stages that we saw in the game, and 3. while a lot of the badniks in Sonic 2006 were blatant ripoffs of the ones in Sonic Adventure 2, the Iblis creatures are...well, they're not unique, but they're different enough for this game, anyway. For this title, it seems like Sonic Team really wants to make each level have very unique badniks. For Rooftop Run representing Unleashed, it's a no-brainer: it's one of the largest stages in the game, and also has the largest town stage, giving Sonic Team more room to stretch their creative fingers when making the level design. For example, you can see Professor Pickles' lab in part of Classic Sonic's level! As for Planet Wisp.. well, think of it this way: it's the only level in Sonic Colors not based on a theme-park motif, and also is home of the Wisps, the creatures upon which the entire gimmick for Colors was based upon. This choice was a no-brainer.

So yeah, there you go, that's why Sonic Team chose the levels that they did for this game. At least, that's why I THINK they chose these levels xD

Edited August 10, 2011 by EXshad

[Sonictrainer]

That said, Casino Park is the only other level from Heroes that I would have been happy with, provided they did it better than SASR. In general, Heroes just had very borin,g derivative level designs. "Ooh, another orange canyon level with rails. Ooh, another city. Ooh, another sky fortress. Ooh, another... haunted castle? Okay, well that's original. But also fucking weird."

Show me a level where trains move through tracks and stations, high above ground in the desert, in any other Sonic game.

Show me a level where Eggman's robots have taken over a power plant that operates roads that are made of energy, in any other Sonic game.

Show me a level where you hop across flying battleships in the sky and take out the main ships by destroying them from the inside and jumping out of the resulting explosion, in any other Sonic game.

Show me a level where the roads are invisible, secrets are hidden everywhere, and activating switches can result in the entire reality being distorted, in any other Sonic game.

I don't even care about missing Ice Cap zone, since we already had Holoska in Unleashed.

Just because Ice Cap and Cool Edge are snow/ice/winter themed levels does not mean putting either one in Generations would be pointless.

By that logic, Seaside Hill shouldn't be in because we already had Jungle Joyride in Unleashed.

Edited August 10, 2011 by STrainer

[KHCast]

Well one of the main points of Generations is that the colors from the Stages are being Sucked out of the stage. Casino Park was one of the most colorful stages in that stage. plot wise it could have worked perfectly. I do have to agree with blue on the Trope choices are very slim. No forest, ice, base, castle. Although boss battles might make up for that.

[Eternal EX]

Boost, I doubt well see a boss battle making up for an ICE stage. Words would not describe the amount of jizz i would produce if that happened. *imagines sonic and shadow or sonic and eggy fighting on ice* uh take that back. I think I'll just wait for a DLC stage.

[Indigo Rush]

There's a a lack of representation for all the different tropes in the series.

*ahem*

Green Hill: tropical island with mountains and bountiful flora

Chemical Plant: mechanical base, with polluted water and chemicals in an industrial factory

Sky Sanctuary: sky, yellow ruins, crumbling rocks and weird futuristic-yet-ancient obstacles

Speed Highway: sparkling night with neon signs, travelling on building tops and suspended strips of road

City Escape: bright sunshine with sloping hills, Victorian architecture and travelling on the streets and sidewalks and the occasional rolling hills of grass

Seaside Hill: oceanscape with a beach, underwater sections and ancient stone architecture (which will most certainly feature over the checkered hillsides)

Crisis City: melting city on the side of a volcano with lava on the ground, giant fire tornadoes and whirlwinds everywhere

Rooftop Run: Tuscan-esque buildings and structures with giant barrels following after you, and the occasional marketplace and university to zoom by

Planet Wisp: an alien forest with a construction site erected in the blue-gray mountains

We have tropics, forest, beach, ruins, mountains, ocean, industrial, factory, sky, city, neon, midnight, lava and fire, and even a construction site.

The only key tropes that are really missing are the ice level, space level and the casino level.

The space representation will come from the Death Egg boss battle, and perhaps the rival battle against Shadow, and the pinball elements of Casino Night are represented in the minigame DLC.

That really only leaves the ice level. You've got that against them, at least.

Even if City Escape, Rooftop Run, Crisis and Speed Highway are all very different cities, they're still city stages.

So is Casino Night. It's based off of Las Vegas. A city.

And Spring Yard, Starlight and Scrap Brain are city levels by extension using the exact same logic as yours. That's half of Sonic 1.

Oh please, get off your high horse! People express disappointment > Other people argue there's nothing to be disappointed about > Debate/argument grows > Suudenly the unhappy crowd is making a big deal over nothing. Happens everything, with everything. This attitude needs to stop.

It's more like this:

People express disappointment > Others offer positive view > Disappointed party ignores and keeps on truckin' with the complaints > Positive party gets sick and tired of the negativity and want to enjoy the friggin' game.

And yes, these "problems" with level variety are largely exaggerated.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Blue Blood]

The first 5 stages were simply picked by fan choice. The poll on facebook covered Sonics 1 through Adventure 2, thus explaining why these levels were chosen.

Everyone's sure that the poll stopped at SA2, right? Only AAUK is adamant that it went up to '06.

ArchangelUK

Posted July 25, 2011 at 8:58 PM

Actually it went up to Sonic Unleashed I think.

Blue Blood

Posted July 26, 2011 at 1:19 AM

Nope, only SA2. Dunno why that was, but it definitely ended there. I can’t find the poll now (seem to remember people saying it had been taken down), but this part I’d completely forgotten about http://www.facebook....417&topic=9769. Asking about level themes. *sigh* So that’s the reason for it then…

ArchangelUK

Posted July 26, 2011 at 9:08 AM

Sorry to disagree but it DID go up to at least Sonic 06… should know as I put the thing up.

Also sorry to disappoint a second time but that was just a normal poll, the only one with any actual seriousness was the favourite levels one. No other poll at that time had anything to do with research or game design, it was just for fun.

Had to stop the argument before I seemed like ever more of a ungrateful sod. But yeah, it definitely only went up to SA2.

The stages were all chosen because they were the favourites, mostly of fans but also SEGA employees (Planet Wisp is likely the only exception, because of how recent Colours is). I've said it before and I'll say it again- they should have worked the results in such a way that they got only one or two tropes of the same type in.

Also, @ Indigo (broke down the quotes):

Green Hill: Tropcial

Chemical Plant: Industrial

Sky Sanctuary: Ruins

Speed Highway: City

City Escape: City

Seaside Hill: Tropical

Crisis City: City and fire

Rooftop Run: City

Planet Wisp: Topical and industrial

The only key tropes that are really missing are the ice level, space level and the casino level.

And desert and water. Even if SSH and CP have water sections, they're not like water stages originally. It's a shame to have the trope diluted into other sections.

The space representation will come from the Death Egg boss battle, and perhaps the rival battle against Shadow, and the pinball elements of Casino Night are represented in the minigame DLC.

That really only leaves the ice level. You've got that against them, at least.

Space does come in the form of a boss battle. A level would have been nice, but I can settle for the boss fight. Can't have it all. But Casino Night is just DLC, and a mini-game no less. It's like saying Unleashed has two sky levels because of the Tornado Chase mini-games.

So is Casino Night. It's based off of Las Vegas. A city.

It's a real stretch of the city theme. The whole point of it is that it's a giant casino. You can play the same card for Crisis City too I suppose, but when there are so many other city stages too it doesn't really fly

And Spring Yard, Starlight and Scrap Brain are city levels by extension using the exact same logic as yours. That's half of Sonic 1.

Hugely varying city stages, if you can even call them all cities.

It's more like this:

People express disappointment > Others offer positive view > Disappointed party ignores and keeps on truckin' with the complaints > Positive party gets sick and tired of the negativity and want to enjoy the friggin' game.

The disappointed party aren't just going to change their minds as soon as another view is presented. And if you want to enjoy the game, feel free to. Nobody's saying you can't.

And the amount of times I've had this argument, with you no less Indigo, is really getting on my tits now. I can't be bothered to do it any more.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Blue Blood

[Solofiveo]

I'm alright with Seaside Hill if done correctly. The modern act will probably play like the modern Green Hill Zone, which may be boring, but I think a lot could be done with the classic level as well as in homage to other levels that couldn't make it. I could see some Labyrinth Zone or such elements being in there, along with whatever gimmicks they choose to use for that level (most likely involving those large loops and spiky rolling boulders.)

To be fully honest though, I'd have rather had Bingo Highway or Casino Park, because then, in the classic level, there could've been a nod to those Sonic 3 barrels.. and with as aware as Sonic Team seems to be about the infamy of those barrels, I'm kind of sad that the game celebrating 20 years of Sonic history won't have that opportunity to make that reference, or re-introduce it to a new group of Sonic players.

Oh well, though. I think Seaside Hill's fine, though.

[Legendary Emerald]

With all of this talk of "tropes" going on...

If I'm seeing this correctly, you WANT this game to use every generic platforming game location in the book? Haven't we moved beyond the standard grass, ice, fire, desert template that every generic platforming game since the NES has used? We can have plenty of variety in stage design without resorting to standard templates. Levels like Planet Wisp are proof of concept, what with its mixing of industrial and environmental themes.

And the only one of these "tropes" people are talking about that is in any way indicative to Sonic SPECIFICALLY is "Casino". Which is GOING to be in the game, just not in the form some of us would have liked.

[Indigo Rush]

Also, @ Indigo (broke down the quotes):

Green Hill: Tropcial

Chemical Plant: Industrial

Sky Sanctuary: Ruins

Speed Highway: City

City Escape: City

Seaside Hill: Tropical

Crisis City: City and fire

Rooftop Run: City

Planet Wisp: Topical and industrial

So far this tells me that you're incapable of looking at things beyond their initial title. That's like saying Mozart, Beethoven and Verdi are too similar because they're all classical music. If you really think that, you're doing the musicians (designers) a great disservice by not taking it with an ear (eye) of appreciation and enjoyment.

And desert

Fair enough.

and water. Even if SSH and CP have water sections, they're not like water stages originally. It's a shame to have the trope diluted into other sections.

See, this is stupid thinking. It may not be a "proper" water level, but the water environment is implemented and there.

Casino Night is just DLC, and a mini-game no less. It's like saying Unleashed has two sky levels because of the Tornado Chase mini-games.

Sorry that it doesn't count for you. They didn't even have to make the Casino DLC.

It's a real stretch of the city theme. The whole point of it is that it's a giant casino. You can play the same card for Crisis City too I suppose, but when there are so many other city stages too it doesn't really fly

It's really not that much of a stretch after listening to your arguments. So far, it's been buildings = city. Oh no!

Hugely varying city stages, if you can even call them all cities.

They vary just as much as the ones you seem to have an issue with, and you are being purposefully ignorant if you refuse to see the differences.

The disappointed party aren't just going to change their minds as soon as another view is presented. And if you want to enjoy the game, feel free to. Nobody's saying you can't.

Of course no one changes their view simply because they lost the argument. I'm trying to get you to think about it from a different angle.

And I appreciate the attempt at telling me to enjoy the game, but it's actually pretty insulting to me especially if you come across with the notion that I'm perfectly fine with being spoon-fed rancid bile from your viewpoint. It's pretty much saying "this is crap, but you can go ahead and enjoy it, I'm going to keep calling it crap while you eat it."

'cept it isn't crap, it's a delicious chocolate sundae. You just need to unplug your nose and actually take a whiff rather than just look at it from a distance and complain.

And the amount of times I've had this argument, with you no less Indigo, is really getting on my tits now. I can't be bothered to do it any more.

It's fine if you don't like the level selection, but I really can't accept your reasoning. I've even gone through moments of reflection on your points, taken a long bath in the flood of arguments not only given by you, but others as well, and find it rather silly that you can't seem to get over it. Is it really the end of it all if it's not exactly as you expected?

And really... of all things to dissect, I'd be more concerned about the gameplay. Maybe because of it's vast improvement over Sonic 4 and the Adventure games (2D and 3D respectively) we're beginning to run out of things to legitimately be concerned about. Heh.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[SuperClassic]

I don't see how people think that Seaside Hill is just a Green Hill rehash, not only does it seem to have quite a bit of Ocean Palace in it, but Seaside Hill and Ocean Palace had a lot of interesting gimmicks and areas that could be implemented into the level, such as the cannons, or the giant turtles. (Even a segment where Sonic runs on water like in Jungle Joyride will certainly do.)

Would I rather have a Casino Stage? Well, yes, but I sure as hell see no problem in Seaside Hill being present.

Edited August 10, 2011 by SuperClassic

[sjmaster92]

Yes I'm happy with it. SSH looks different enough IMO to keep it from looking too much like GHZ. The Water,Cannons,and heavy focus on the ruins ( from what we've seen so far) already make this stage seem alot more than just GHZ 2.0.

Edited August 10, 2011 by sjmaster92

[Solid SOAP]

Yeah, it was a pretty bland choice seeing as how it's esscentially just Green Hill Zone with a makeover. Casino Park, Bingo Highway, or Egg Fleet would've been MUCH better choices, all of which didn't have any trope representation in the game. Seaside Hill is the one stage that I think was a bad choice, it just is so uninventive.

[Johnny Boy]

I was disappointed at the choice for seaside hill at first. But then I thought they could incorporate aspects from past water levels such as Aquatic ruins or Labyrinth zone. Heck I even have a feeling the killer whale chase from sonic adventure might return. So yeah, dissapointed at first but now I'm looking forward to it (I'm more interested in crisis city though )

@Solid SOAP if anything I think spagonia was the worst choice. But that's just me though.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Johnny Boy

[SuperClassic]

I was disappointed at the choice for seaside hill at first. But then I thought they could incorporate aspects from past water levels such as Aquatic ruins or Labyrinth zone. Heck I even have a feeling the killer whale chase from sonic adventure might return. So yeah, dissapointed at first but now I'm looking forward to it (I'm more interested in crisis city though )

@Solid SOAP if anything I think spagonia was the worst choice. But that's just me though.

Exactly, there's a lot that Sonic Team's probably going to do to make the Sonic Generations version of Seaside Hill stand out when compared to the Sonic Heroes version, instead of calling it a Green Hill rehash so soon, I think we should just wait until we see more of it.

Also, I'm not sure what they could do with Spagonia, either. lol