How to implement Genesis style gameplay in 3d?

[Chaos Warp]

As I asked before, it's basically the Advance Boost system? If so, I already explained my grievances with that idea. xP

[Legendary Emerald]

I love watching Diogenes argue, especially when I agree with his position (and I usually don't, as seen by my own arguments with him). Shadic's idea is flawed for every single reason Diogenes has mentioned, and anyone who thinks otherwise has very flawed critical thinking skills.

As for my ideas on how to make genesis work in 3D, well, we've already said most of what would work. Give more control over Sonic's movement, make the levels conducive to rolling about, offer plenty of branching paths, make using the homing attack more akin to bouncing, and, well, whatever Sonic 3D Blast was? Don't do that.

The SRB2 keyboard-and-mouse idea for control doesn't sit well with me; when I play that game, I play it with a joypad and set the controls to Sonic Adventure style. Works perfectly then, provided I play as Tails. Sonic is just way too damn fast in that game to complete the later levels with. Plus, we all know how lackluster console FPS's are in the control department, and I think a platforming game which played like an FPS with a standard dual-stick controller would be exceptionally hard to control.

I'd also suggest that a 3D Sonic game in the Genesis style be more difficult than recent Sonic games, and not due to cheap level design or enemy placement. The original Crash Bandicoot trilogy was able to do this, and even the better licensed platformers like Spongebob: Battle for Bikini Bottom had more difficulty in them than say, Sonic Colors. The Sonic series has never been a test of video game prowess, but at least when we were younger, we thought the games were hard. If a 3D Sonic game done in the classic style were to be made, it'd be nice for it to have the difficulty we incorrectly remember the Genesis games having (due to nostalgia).

[Kuzu]

I love watching Diogenes argue, especially when I agree with his position (and I usually don't, as seen by my own arguments with him). Shadic's idea is flawed for every single reason Diogenes has mentioned, and anyone who thinks otherwise has very flawed critical thinking skills.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Shadic93

[Diogenes]

I miss the days when people understood that bad ideas existed.

[Nepenthe]

It's one thing to have a bad idea in regards to video game production, and it's another to paint someone's entire intelligence, morality, and/or overall intentions in a bad light as a result of one bad idea in regards to video game production. It was kind of a douchey comment regardless. =/

[Kuzu]

I miss the days when people understood that bad ideas existed.

[Diogenes]

I do respect your opinion. I just happen to disagree with your idea, for reasons I outlined.

[Kuzu]

I do respect your opinion. I just happen to disagree with your idea, for reasons I outlined.

[Chaos Walker]

Dear god, talk about something else. This is torture. I keep comming back because I like the topic, but the discussion never gets any better.

personaly, I think the boost is a bad idea to begin with. I have no quarrel with having Sonic go REALLY REALLY fast, but we know we don't want the levels to be designed around it, and if the level design doesn't match the character's moveset things don't go well. That's why I support keeping the current "switching gameplay" method, but instead of 2D-3D, we have Adventure-Unleashed. Heck, that even fits: Adventure for exploration and platforming, Unleashed for the rollercoaster thrill ride.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[Diogenes]

I really don't see why we need a separate "thrill ride". The fast sections should be integrated with the slower sections the same way the Genesis games did it.

[Nepenthe]

The fast sections were never really integrated with full platforming as far as I remember. The times in which you were going your fastest were automatic contraptions or extreme/recurring slopes which then proceeded to lead you back into a section of platforming that required finesse and timing the prior speeds couldn't afford the player without being cheap. That's generally how it's always been done.

[Chaos Walker]

I really don't see why we need a separate "thrill ride". The fast sections should be integrated with the slower sections the same way the Genesis games did it.

[Nepenthe]

I get a patronizing vibe from you when you reference people fond of Daytime gameplay and its variants.

[Chaos Walker]

Please don't misunderstand. I'm all for keeping that style of gameplay. It's just that I don't think you can properly design the game with it. If you flip back a page you will see this:

I think the boost is a bad idea to begin with. I have no quarrel with having Sonic go REALLY REALLY fast, but we know we don't want the levels to be designed around it, and if the level design doesn't match the character's moveset things don't go well. That's why I support keeping the current "switching gameplay" method, but instead of 2D-3D, we have Adventure-Unleashed. Heck, that even fits: Adventure for exploration and platforming, Unleashed for the rollercoaster thrill ride.

[Nepenthe]

I was primarily talking about this line seeming patronizing:

Now that we have it, people seem to cling to the boost like a drug. They know they don't want race track levels, but they want the speed soooo bad.

But I'm probably being oversensitive.

And I agree with your statement on the basis of this topic's context, that being implementing Genesis gameplay in 3D. Unleashed gameplay is inherently different from that style and so is its core mechanic, ergo I'm not even sure why or how the boost even got into the discussion in the first place. =P

[Voyant]

The fast sections were never really integrated with full platforming as far as I remember. The times in which you were going your fastest were automatic contraptions or extreme/recurring slopes which then proceeded to lead you back into a section of platforming that required finesse and timing the prior speeds couldn't afford the player without being cheap. That's generally how it's always been done.

[Chaos Warp]

Again, I don't understand. Why not just make the ultimate top speed the ultimate top speed instead of compartmentalizing it like that?

[Nepenthe]

So basically, add momentum-based effects onto the boost? Sure, why not? I still wouldn't use the Advance model for it though, since its restrictions don't really add anything to gameplay. Just slap that onto Unleashed's boost and be done with it.

[Chaos Walker]

So basically, add momentum-based effects onto the boost? Sure, why not? I still wouldn't use the Advance model for it though, since its restrictions don't really add anything to gameplay. Just slap that onto Unleashed's boost and be done with it.

[Chaos Warp]

Wow, that is alot of speed. I can only imagine how amazingly fast it would look. What I do know is that it encourages even more race track like levels. An ability like this could not be used in regular platforming without either straight paths, or hitting something every 3 seconds. (Perhaps 3 is actually too long?)

Kay, maybe a speed cap at about just before off screen Chemical Plant speed would be in order?

[Nepenthe]

Wow, that is alot of speed. I can only imagine how amazingly fast it would look. What I do know is that it encourages even more race track like levels. An ability like this could not be used in regular platforming without either straight paths, or hitting something every 3 seconds. (Perhaps 3 is actually too long?)

The regular boost has never been advocated or logically permissable in tight platforming sections in the first place, nor does using the Advance style inhibit racetrack level design because it's still inherently a boost mechanic that relies on memorization to execute for extended periods of time.

If anything else, giving the boost the ability to be effected, even in small ways, by momentum, would encourage the developers to use deep inclines, thus create ramps, thus subsequently create layered paths to take advantage of ala Colors and the classics.

[Chaos Walker]

The regular boost has never been advocated or logically permissable in tight platforming sections in the first place, nor does using the Advance style inhibit racetrack level design because it's still inherently a boost mechanic that relies on memorization to execute for extended periods of time.

Inhibit? Of course not. Anything that makes you faster would be good for race track levels. The levels should be designed to compliment the moveset, and having any boost abilities will encourage the type of level design seen in Unleashed. In other words: If the boost is there, straight sections will be more prevalant.

If anything else, giving the boost the ability to be effected, even in small ways, by momentum, would encourage the developers to use deep inclines, thus create ramps, thus subsequently create layered paths to take advantage of ala Colors and the classics.

Spindash wishes it hadn't been kick in the crotch by boost.

[Kuzu]

Spin Dash needs to come back and kick the boost's ass.

[The Weeb with No Name]

Adventure 2 already did it. From there it just needs technical improvements.

[Chaos Walker]

Adventure 2 already did it. From there it just needs technical improvements.

Adventure two used somwhere between little to no momentum pinball mechanics. I can think of one place in city escape where using spindash would get you to the Gold Beetle. I didn't realized that spindash would make me go fast down hill in that game untill about 4+ years after getting it. I'd done it in the genesis games, but it never even occured to me to do it there. And why would I? Nothing else in the levels had taught me to use momentum/.physics. Dash pads did it all for me.