Epiphany: Why the characters need to return.

[Kuzu]

After discussing it with enough people, I've realized something..we need more characters, not should, need. Now I know what some people are thinking "Oh the characters suck, they only need Sonic, because he's the only important one" NO. Ask yourself this, why do you like your favorite character? Because of their personalities right? By how do you know about said personality? Because of their interactions with another character, that's why.

People love Amy because of her ability to bring out the best in people and always believe in them, we would've never known this if Shadow or Gamma never existed.

People loves Silver because of his determination to never give up in the face of danger, which we would've never seen had it not been for Mephiles or Blaze.

In Black Knight, Sonic showed signs of his personality that no one thought existed, his entire philosophy, his way of life was challenged and we saw how he reacted in said situations, why? Because of Merlina.

See what I mean all of those traits I described are there because the characters had other characters to reflect their personalities off of.

With little to no characters to talk to, you barely see any hint of personality and they come off as bland and uninteresting(Shade), and you see no reason to care about them, by interacting with other characters you expand on a personality and can relate with said character.

And this isn't even going into gameplay options.

Note: I'm not talking about additional characters, I'm talking about the characters that we already have and why they should be in more games. Matter of fact let me change the title.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Shadic93

[Tornado]

With little to no characters to talk to, you barely see any hint of personality and they come off as bland and uninteresting(Shade)

I thought Shade was a hell of a lot more interesting than Silver ever could have been, so already your theory is taking on water.

[Kuzu]

I thought Shade was a hell of a lot more interesting than Silver ever could have been, so already your theory is taking on water.

What the hell about Shade was interesting? Her interactions don't go outside of Sonic or Knuckles, and you barely learn anything about her. Hell Silver isn't my favorite character either, but at least we actually learned some things about who he is over the course of 06, I really can't say that for Shade.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Shadic93

[Tornado]

What the hell about Shade was interesting?

Strong female figure dealing with conflicting allegiances. Not sure whether to trust her species or her friends, with a bit of "doing what's right" thrown into the mix. In a series where the gold standard for writing female characters up to that point was "shonen anime caricature" and "slutty arm candy."

Silver spent most of STH '06 being about as exciting as a turnip, and one or two notable scenes does not an interesting character make.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Tornado

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

People love Amy because of her ability to bring out the best in people and always believe in them, we would've never known this if Shadow or Gamma never existed.

People loves Silver because of his determination to never give up in the face of danger, which we would've never seen had it not been for Mephiles or Blaze.

...Sonic has both of these traits.

With little to no characters to talk to, you barely see any hint of personality and they come off as bland and uninteresting(Shade), and you see no reason to care about them, by interacting with other characters you expand on a personality and can relate with said character.

So your argument is that a small cast leads to poorer characters? So Portal, Amnesia, Bastion, Braid, Ico, and Shadow of the Colossus just ceased to exist then?

[Kuzu]

Strong female figure

Blaze and Rouge, and even so, that's not a personality trait.

dealing with conflicting allegiances, Not sure whether to trust her species or her friends, with a bit of "doing what's right" thrown into the mix.

She sure as hell didn't act conflicted, she had no problem following Ix's orders until he blew her off of Angel Island, and no dialogue suggested she questioned him up until before he blew her up.

In a series where the gold standard for writing female characters up to that point was "shonen anime caricature" and "slutty arm candy."

Both Amy & Rouge have so much more personality than Shade, that I can overlook that. I don't give two craps if shade is a "strong female character" if her character is shallow, then it really doesn't matter.

Silver spent most of STH '06 being about as exciting as a turnip, and one or two notable scenes does not an interesting character make.

How about his reflecting Amy's words about killing someone? Or his distress when Blaze was dying? Yeah those are actual believable scenes, because he was displaying emotion, I'm not saying he's interesting character because of it, but its a hell of a lot more than what Shade had.

...Sonic has both of these traits.

what does this have to do with my argument?

So your argument is that a small cast leads to poorer characters? So Portal, Amnesia, Bastion, Braid, Ico, and Shadow of the Colossus just ceased to exist then?

Most of those games you described are either old games where narrative was always poor, or the main characters are just avatars that the players are supposed to project themselves onto.

None of them have actual personalities like some modern day protagonist.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Shadic93

[Tornado]

So your argument is that a small cast leads to poorer characters? So Portal, Amnesia, Bastion, Braid, Ico, and Shadow of the Colossus just ceased to exist then?

I don't think he thought the OP through all the way before he posted it. Particularly considering how violently he is reacting in response to those that disagree.

[Kuzu]

I don't think he thought the OP through all the way before he posted it. Particularly considering how violently he is reacting in response to those that disagree.

..how am I reacting violently?

[Noir]

Your theory sounds lovely on paper but I have to give it a resounding no. Sonic Team hasn't even gotten a fair share of interesting interactions between the already enormous cast and I'd never believe that they'd know what to do with even more characters.

You're absolutely right that development comes from interaction. However, why in the world shouldn't the solution be to have the existing cast interact with each other in more worthwhile ways? There's so many characters with so many personalities, and there's no reason that they can't build off of each other. Adding more characters specifically to highlight a certain trait of an old one is a horrible band-aid solution.

It's like, "oh let's show that Silver really fucking loves kittens... so we'll add this new character who's a dog guy! It's brilliant because they'll butt heads!" Now you're left with a useless, one-dimensional dog-lover character. Or instead, why not this: "let's show how Silver fucking loves kittens and hates everyone who doesn't love them too... by revealing that Sonic loves dogs! What a great idea; we're expanding their personalities at the same time!" Now Sonic's more interesting too.

One "solution" only creates a new problem (that is, another character that needs a personality established and built) while the other is well, actually solving the problem.

[Old dead account]

As long as they don't interfere with pace breaking gameplay. Personally, I'm here for gameplay and nothing more, you can have a game with best character interactions in gaming history but if there's tons of gameplay styles (usually shit) that break the flow of the game and then it's all for nothing.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Gartocer

[Kuzu]

Your theory sounds lovely on paper but I have to give it a resounding no. Sonic Team hasn't even gotten a fair share of interesting interactions between the already enormous cast and I'd never believe that they'd know what to do with even more characters.

You're absolutely right that development comes from interaction. However, why in the world shouldn't the solution be to have the existing cast interact with each other in more worthwhile ways? There's so many characters with so many personalities, and there's no reason that they can't build off of each other. Adding more characters specifically to highlight a certain trait of an old one is a horrible band-aid solution.

It's like, "oh let's show that Silver really fucking loves kittens... so we'll add this new character who's a dog guy! It's brilliant because they'll butt heads!" Now you're left with a useless, one-dimensional dog-lover character. Or instead, why not this: "let's show how Silver fucking loves kittens and hates everyone who doesn't love them too... by revealing that Sonic loves dogs! What a great idea; we're expanding their personalities at the same time!" Now Sonic's more interesting too.

One "solution" only creates a new problem (that is, another character that needs a personality established and built) while the other is well, actually solving the problem.

[Tornado]

..how am I reacting violently?

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

what does this have to do with my argument?

Edited September 5, 2011 by Soma

[Noir]

Yeeeah I definitely think you should reword that first post a bit. Even then, which characters should and shouldn't appear is largely situational. I'm not sure if what you have in mind is for every game to feature a lot of characters but if that's the case then it's certainly not a good idea in my mind. Plot relevance would be the most important factor, and that should be what decides which characters will react and how. If only Sonic and Tails are needed, then great. If more can squeeze in, that's fine too.

I suppose what I'm saying is that getting the cast to interact is less of a problem than knowing what too little and too many characters are. As of late it seems like Sonic Team isn't sure what the former is. I'd rather see that fixed before they start developing characters.

[Kuzu]

Me: I think Shade was an interesting character, so I don't think your theory is accurate.

You: *Ultimate Rage*

Edited September 5, 2011 by Shadic93

[Noir]

What kicks off plots essentially boils down to Sonic and Eggman and the rest are, more often than not, fluff.

Like I said, Sonic Team doesn't seem to have a clue as far as what the difference between too many and too few characters is, and that's the problem. Colors could've gotten more characters involved without them screwing the plot. At the same time, half the cast of Heroes was fairly useless. So while yeah, characters are "the driving force behind a narrative," that doesn't mean there should ever be more or less than what's needed.

Or in other words, characters shouldn't be tossed in to aid in development, but rather they should be chosen to appear because they're important to the story, and interactions should be based around that.

[Legendary Emerald]

Okay, to be honest, I'm all for having a large cast of characters in the games. As Eggman says, "the more the merrier". However, just because we have a lot of characters, doesn't mean the characters will become any more interesting. Example would be Sonic Heroes; 12 playable characters, and I'd be surprised if a single solitary person ever gave a shit about Espio outside of the "omg they brought back a Chaotix character squeee" group*.

The games don't NEED a big cast, which is perfectly shown by Sonic Colors. But on the other hand, games like Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 show that it can work with a bunch of characters. It all depends on the storytelling and writing ability. Characters can't be simply shoehorned in to make things better; they have to be written well, and interact with other characters in a meaningful way. Not just "Hey look, the Chaotix are up in space shutting down a lazer! Ha ha, what wacky hi-jinks will they get into next?" Every member of the cast doesn't need to make an appearance in every game, in other words. The extended cast should be taken into consideration when writing the games, though, instead of coping out and saying "Nah, it'll be easier to make a game with just Sonic and Tails again. We'll give them a pet hampster companion this time. Kids'll love it."

* To be fair, they added a lot to Espio's personality in Rivals 2. But before that, there was nothing to work with besides "silent type" and "ninja". Sorry if that doesn't thrill me.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Sonic: You know Knuckles, you could just take a break from guarding the Master Emerald.

Knuckles: I can't do that! What if a monster breaks it, or it gets tainted by corruption, or if that Bat-girl decides to show up again?

Sonic: Ok Ok! Sheesh, you really need to learn to relax a bit, nothing wrong with taking some R&R from guarding a giant rock.

Knuckles (sarcastic): Oh because I'm SURE you would know all about that, wouldn't you, Sonic?

Sonic: What are you saying?

Knuckles: Oh nothing! It's just that it's kinda odd for SOMEONE who doesn't even have a job/duty to be telling ME that I should waste precious time that could be used to keep the Emerald safe, on running around doing nothing!

Sonic: HEY! Running around isn't doing nothing! I'm exploring places! Besides I had to take care of Tails when he was a toddler! Its not exactly a cakewalk to deal with a kid who gets himself caught in every trap in history you know!

Edited September 5, 2011 by Enigma2

[Chaos Walker]

Okay, to be honest, I'm all for having a large cast of characters in the games. As Eggman says, "the more the merrier". However, just because we have a lot of characters, doesn't mean the characters will become any more interesting. Example would be Sonic Heroes; 12 playable characters, and I'd be surprised if a single solitary person ever gave a shit about Espio outside of the "omg they brought back a Chaotix character squeee" group*.

The games don't NEED a big cast, which is perfectly shown by Sonic Colors. But on the other hand, games like Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 show that it can work with a bunch of characters. It all depends on the storytelling and writing ability. Characters can't be simply shoehorned in to make things better; they have to be written well, and interact with other characters in a meaningful way. Not just "Hey look, the Chaotix are up in space shutting down a lazer! Ha ha, what wacky hi-jinks will they get into next?" Every member of the cast doesn't need to make an appearance in every game, in other words. The extended cast should be taken into consideration when writing the games, though, instead of coping out and saying "Nah, it'll be easier to make a game with just Sonic and Tails again. We'll give them a pet hampster companion this time. Kids'll love it."

* To be fair, they added a lot to Espio's personality in Rivals 2. But before that, there was nothing to work with besides "silent type" and "ninja". Sorry if that doesn't thrill me.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Chaos Walker

[Xenos]

I think that mostly every character has a chance to be their own person while being unique and likable at the same time.

But there's a trio that are kind of stuck between just being regular extras in the games, or just playable in Spin-Offs.

The Chaotix. Now don't get me wrong, I like all 3 of them. But they just seem sort of...there. Most of the time at least.

And they probably have some of the most potentially awesome concepts for the trio. Detective Work...I could see them hitting off a Spin-Off series with that in mind. Or give them an important case that has a great tie in with the main plot.

Playability is a bit more difficult though. Espio could work, but he surely can't boost. Vector is a bit too bulky to reach those speeds isn't he? I don't see how'd he work in a 3D game at all. (Someone prove me wrong. Please.) Especially since his running animation would probably look extremely awkward due to his body proportions.

Charmy could work like Tails in a way, too.

[HUNTER297]

Before I start Shade shouldnt be even brought into discussion. Shade was more interesting than majority of cast because of fact that she was in RPG. For this sole fact she was developed there and that made her more interesting. She wont come back tho. Unless its complete reboot of her backstory. And there is this whole law process with Archie.

Every character is interesting on its own. Just like Shadic said we like Shadow because of his serious attidue that make him do things that have to be done.

We like Silver because of his determination and will to achieve his goal no matter what.

Those chars. Should interact with each other. With current story writting all of them can interact but in majority with their team and Sonic. To have some unique character interactions we need to coje back to SA1/2 multiple story modes method.

About Chaotix. Well I like all 3 so dont get me wrong but they are... Not so well developed. I mean their backstory is somehow dull and each one alone is somehow boring (Espio was nice developed in Rivals 2 with his interactions with Silver) but I cant imagine the same for Charmy. The only way they can be interesting is when they work as team.

[Legendary Emerald]

I love your post. It cracked m up like three times.

L.E.'s antics aside, I agree that bringing in more existing characters for the sake of a better plot is a good idea. We got tired of having new faces thrown at us so often, but now there are enough of those faces that we can start bringing them back in and cyclying them for fresh plot ideas, and new interactions. Heck, let's make a really unique cast and see what plot ideas come to mind:

Sonic (given)

Tails (almost given)

Big

Omega

Silver

Gmerl

Can you come up with something for that? How would Big and silver get along? Would they team up? I think so. How about Cream's robot slave? Bring him back and have some conflict with Omega.

Cream and Gmerl are having a tea party, when suddenly Gmerl's eyes light up red, as all robots do as they go into evil mode; beware any electronic device with a blinking red light, people. Gmerl dashes off, spilling hot tea all over Cream, and isn't seen again.

A few months later, Tails is underneath the Tornado XXIVD2 working on its engine when he hears the TV mention a fight between two robots in the middle of Generic the City. The two robots are Gmerl and Omega, and they tear apart buildings as they try to take each other down. Tail's radios Sonic, who is currently on the outskirts of the city, fishing with Big. Sonic hates fishing, but he was in the neighborhood, so whatever. He jumps at the opportunity to fight some robots, and leaves Big in the dust wondering what happened.

Then Silver teleports in out of nowhere, missing Sonic by mere moments. He had something really important to tell the hedgehog, but ends up instead talking to the mildly retarded cat. Big takes the chaos emerald Silver has and warns him of the dangers of such power, as it once corrupted a close friend of his. Due to his naivety, Silver mistakes Big's slow nature as a sign of profound intelligence, and asks the cat to take him to Sonic since he won't give him his Emerald back. And so the two pair up.

After breaking up the fighting between Gmerl and Omega, Gmerl disappears once more and Omega refuses to explain anything at all to Sonic, since the only thing he knows about the blue hedgehog he knows because of Shadow's second hand (and not so flattering) account of him. Meanwhile, more robots are starting to run wild all of the continent, unprovoked, and without word from Eggman himself. Sonic and Tail's set off together to destroy all the robots they can, and maybe get down to the bottom of the whole mess.

Throughout the rest of the game, Sonic and Tail's travel from location to location, bashing robots from previous Sonic games, including the bosses from the Gamegear Sonic games. Tail's collects the broken memory cores of the bosses, thinking that if he has enough of the half-working parts, he can put a full one back together, and thereby get some idea as to why the bots have started attacking randomly. Meanwhile, Silver and Big are constantly one or many steps behind Sonic and Tails, and Big keeps leading Silver off into the wrong directions. Throughout the whole ordeal, Silver still trusts Big completely, though he has some doubts about his partner's sage-like wisdom at times.

In the end, Tail's completes a memory core unit, and is able to condense the memories of the various bosses into a single element which they all contain: "new master recognized". That's when Silver and Big teleport in, Silver having convinced the cat that perhaps power itself cannot be destructive, and that it all depends on the user, and thereby getting his emerald back.

Silver explains the rest of the mystery to Sonic and Tails: before being trapped in the inferno with Ifrit, Eggman Nega created a machine which could take over the programming of any robot loyal to Eggman. It went into effect a set time after his death, leading to the current robot riot. Silver knows this because he saw Nega programming the machine long ago, some time before the events of Rivals 2. Nega had then hit him with a gas, causing him to temporarily forget all that he'd seen, but when Silver heard news of the robot uprising, it jogged his memory.

Sonic wonders why Omega was fighting Gmerl in Generic the City, but Tail's knows better; only robots LOYAL to Eggman were affected by Nega's machine. Omega this whole time has been fighting robots, but being attacked by GUN as well, since they think he is just another rampaging robot. Sonic, Tails, Silver, and Big then have to go find Omega and stop his rampage, so they can convince GUN that he isn't like the others. Sonic ends up having to fight Omega since he won't listen to reason, and afterwards, GUN comes to dispose of him. That's when Shadow makes his appearance, and pulls rank over the soldiers who came to take Omega away. Sonic asks where Shadow has been the whole time, and the black hedgehog just scoffs and says he's had bigger things to worry about, but that he was only there to make sure Omega was safe. Shadow take Omega with him and disappears, but not before mentioning that while he was passing through Generic the Wasteland, he encountered a lot of strange static interference on his communicator, and that it might be a clue as to where Nega's signal is broadcasting from.

Silver tells Sonic that its time for him to finish off Nega's plan, and that only the two of them can do it. He teleports himself and Sonic to the wasteland, leaving Tails and Big behind. After exploring the area, they see Gmerl in the distance. Silver latches onto Sonic's arm and Sonic runs after the robot, trailing him to a patch of land which recedes and opens up to reveal an entrance to a secret base.

Inside, they find themselves in what is actually the remains of Scrap Brain Zone, completely run down, but housing plenty of the robots the deceased Nega has under his control. They fight through the base, ending with a battle against a Gmerl, who merges with the machinary of the base to become Scrap Metal Gmerl (best name EVER). After that smoke has settled, Sonic and Silver end up in front of the only new machine in the factory, and one which looks decidedly unlike a signal broadcaster.

Silver convinces Sonic to go along with him, and the two use their chaos emeralds in the machine. They they force the power of the emeralds to come out and into the machine themselves, since it is almost impossible for machinary to activate any kind of chaos control on its own.

This opens up a portal. And out of the portal steps Eggman Nega, looking more haggard and burned than ever before. Sonic is surprised, and momentarily thinks that Silver has betrayed him. Nega explains though that the real reason he'd arranged for Eggman's robots to run wild was as a failsafe, in case he were to be trapped in any zone not of his own with no way out. He'd led Silver to the base so long ago, to make sure at least one person knew of the machine which could bring him back from any point in space-time, as long as the machine's operators were two highly adept users of chaos power.

Silver tells Nega to follow through on his part of the "deal", as it were, and let go of his control over Eggman's machine. Being the honorable gentleman that he is, Nega complies, and with the push of a single button on his overcoat, the robots fall silent. He tears the button off, handing it to the two to prove his honesty. Nega thanks Silver and Sonic, and then says good day to them, and turns his back.

Sonic scoffs; Nega can't really expect them to let him walk free, can he? Not to mention the machine still has his and silver's chaos emeralds! Nega warns Sonic not to be greedy, and to accept his minor victory, unless he wants to meet his end quicker. Sonic takes the challenge, and Nega sighs.

"Surely you don't think I wouldn't have arranged for this elaborate failsafe without anticipating every possibility?"

Nega snaps his fingers, and Silver's head erupts in pain. Nega explains that the "gas" Silver inhaled was actually a cloud of nanites, able to both suppress his memories of certain events, and give Nega control over him as if he were just another of Eggman's robots. Nega tosses one of the two chaos emerald's to his spiky pawn, and then tells Silver to his blue friend from the premesis.

Insert amazing boss battle here, set to orchestrated theme and whatnot. Also, explosions. Lots of them.

At the end of the fight, Silver has succeeded in driving Sonic out of the base, and away from Nega, but Sonic is able to knock him out with the last ounce of his strength. The two collapse almost simultaneously in the wasteland, and the shadow of buzzards circle overhead. So too, hangs the shadow of the Tornado.

The next day, Sonic wakes up in the hospital, immediately embarrassed by the very notion. He has his pride, afterall, and letting the world know that he'd nearly died in a desert wasteland after playing right into Nega's hands wasn't on his list of priorities. Then he remembers Silver, and starts to get up out of the bed. Tail's walks in at that point and Sonic asks where Silver is. Tails tells him that the white hedgehog is over in the room next door, oh, and that Sonic's welcome. Sonic chuckles and thanks Tail's for rescuing him out in the desert, and then jumps up and busts into Silver's room, where Big is already asleep in a chair next to him.

Silver wakes up and doesn't understand how he got where he is. The last thing he remembers is Nega warning Sonic not to push him. Sonic asks Tail's if the doctors performed any brain scans on Silver, and Tail's says they did, to check for concussions and such. Nothing of interest was found. Tails asks why Sonic asked, and the blue hedgehog just looks at the confused Silver before shaking his head and saying "Nevermind". Silver takes this to mean Sonic was just joking about his bad memory, and says maybe he should have taken Shadow with him to stop Nega; at least he'd have taken things more seriously. Sonic laughs nervously, which wakes Big up. The four main characters share some more lines of inconsequential dialogue, and the scene ends with a closeup of Sonic's eyes, first alive with laughter, and slowly turning more serious and introspective.

THE END

Jesus fucking Christ why did I write all this. I... I hate myself right now. Well, I suppose if nothing else, this proves you can make a storyline using any batch of characters chosen at random. Whether it'll be any good, well, I can't even judge if what I wrote is acceptable for me because I'm so dead tired. Probably a bunch of plot holes in that. This isn't a fanfiction topic, fuck, why did I waste all this time. Damn you for encouraging me Chaos Walker, damn yooooouuuu....

zzzzzz....

[HUNTER297]

God I actually read it! But I think before bringing back such as Big and Gemerl (both are in some terms forgotten) we should bring Knuckles, Shadow, Rouge, Silver and maybe Blaze to main series.

After that we should try to bring chars. such as Chaotix and Big. They are a bit forgotten and in desperate need of development but lets estblish rest of the cast first before tryint to bring them back.

[Xenos]

God I actually read it! But I think before bringing back such as Big and Gemerl (both are in some terms forgotten) we should bring Knuckles, Shadow, Rouge, Silver and maybe Blaze to main series.

After that we should try to bring chars. such as Chaotix and Big. They are a bit forgotten and in desperate need of development but lets estblish rest of the cast first before tryint to bring them back.

Uh...I wouldn't call any of those characters forgotten.

Since most of them have been in at least 1 Sonic game as of last year. Not to mention the Chaotix are back in Generations already.

No sign of Big, or Omega though...strange.

Aside from that, I think most of the characters already have pretty good personalities for a start if you look at free riders. The only issue I had was the iffy voice acting at times. The character interactions in that game were also a good step forward for the characters in the series.

They also had some interesting lines in Colors DS.

I think the new writers are doing a fine job with the characters, the voice direction is also pretty well done aside from a select few that again, need work. And the story in Generations seems to be much larger compared to the likes of Unleashed and Colors as well, but it still looks about as lighthearted as Unleashed.

This is the perfect chance to get all of the current characters right, I really hope they succeed.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Jesus fucking Christ why did I write all this. I... I hate myself right now. Well, I suppose if nothing else, this proves you can make a storyline using any batch of characters chosen at random. Whether it'll be any good, well, I can't even judge if what I wrote is acceptable for me because I'm so dead tired. Probably a bunch of plot holes in that. This isn't a fanfiction topic, fuck, why did I waste all this time. Damn you for encouraging me Chaos Walker, damn yooooouuuu....

zzzzzz....

Dude, that's quite a mind you got. I would love to see a Sonic game pull this off decently. It may need some tweaking, but you did quite well for something off the top of your head.