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Grind rails! What say you!


Badnik Zero

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Grinding is one of the elements I believe makes Sonic an enjoyable series, but only if its used right. In SA2 for example, balance and timing were important factors. Heroes also had some great use of it in Rail Canyon and Bullet Station. Then again in Unleashed, grinding makes for a series of short obstacle courses. In Shadow and 06, there were some good examples of grinding, but they were mostly pointless. But pretty much all grinding is pointless in the 2D games.

Grinding has got to go, no compromises. They're more of the damn automation that's been dragging the series down.
Grinding? An automation? Scripted loops are an automation. But grinding? Enjoy crashing into spikeballs and falling into pits.
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A regular path would have no challenge really. The point of the grind rail, in combination with another hazard, these days at least, is that you can't stop or easily change direction and must face the hazard under these conditions.

But I do agree that I'd rather see grind rails only appear on a handful of stages rather than all over the place.

Edited by JezMM
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Actually, in the Wii version, 3D grind rails are only used once in the entire game, during the final boss. Quite odd really. All the other rails are in 2D sections.
There's a pair of them in Shamar, actually. They're twisted together, so you can't switch between them, tho'...at least not to my knowledge...

If you're going to be doing stuff like that, what's the point in even having the rail?
Variety and style.
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Actually, I'm not even sure sega is allowed to put soap shoes back in the games, after what happened to the company selling out. It's funny though, since I saw them in one of the later ep's of Sonic X.

One thing they need to fix about the way rails are placed, is stop designing them with 0 degree angles. Make them go down like 300 degrees. I'm at least 90% sure SA2 did this.

Then in Rail Canyon they made the rails like all curvy, but with no downward angles. This ruined momentum. Another thing that bothered me in Heroes was the they got rid of the sparks. Why?? The sparks looked so cool in SA2.

I actually found grinding in ShtH better than heroes. Despite that they got rid of the balance feature, it felt cool doing those 180's. And since there weren't many grind parts, it was forgivable.

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Grinding? An automation? Scripted loops are an automation. But grinding? Enjoy crashing into spikeballs and falling into pits.

The majority of changes in speed and direction are not handled by the player. And thanks for reminding me that the parts that aren't automated are mostly trial and error (Sky Rail, Final Rush/Chase), or are "tutorial level" obvious.

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The majority of changes in speed and direction are not handled by the player. And thanks for reminding me that the parts that aren't automated are mostly trial and error (Sky Rail, Final Rush/Chase), or are "tutorial level" obvious.
I have never had a single issue with trial and error on rails. It's called "reaction time."
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(In SA2)I do react, and I still miss the other rail.

(In Sonic Unleashed) There's seldom anywhere to go, so you have to plan ahead.

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(In SA2)I do react, and I still miss the other rail.
Fair enough, but I've still never had a problem.

(In Sonic Unleashed) There's seldom anywhere to go, so you have to plan ahead.
If there is any trial and error, I generally subvert it by not boosting. Granted that rails, mainly the ones with obstacles, don't work well from a side perspective, but I see no issue in the 3D parts. Edited by A Ham Sandwich
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Grinding? An automation? Scripted loops are an automation. But grinding? Enjoy crashing into spikeballs and falling into pits.

Until one has the level dialed and can avoid such mishaps, which is what needs to be done, anyway.

Edited by Ryan Brown
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Well, I'm with pretty much everything Diogenes has already said.

Make them better and add more to what you can do on them.

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If you're jumping and attacking while grinding on a rail, it's the same as not being on a rail, minus directional control.

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If you're jumping and attacking while grinding on a rail, it's the same as not being on a rail, minus directional control.

And it's that vital difference that makes them an obstacle/challenge rather than something that adds nothing to the game. Basically:

Obstacle appears while not grinding = Game is saying "here is an obstacle".

Obstacle appears while grinding = Game is saying "here is an obstacle, now you've seen it, you have two seconds to react accordingly".

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If you're jumping and attacking while grinding on a rail, it's the same as not being on a rail, minus directional control.

Variety is the spice of life, and when it can be used correctly, who cares?

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If you're jumping and attacking while grinding on a rail, it's the same as not being on a rail, minus directional control.
It could be, but it doesn't have to be. They can create specific moves and obstacles that are unique to grinding, give it its own unique feel and challenge, and have it actually contribute to the gameplay. There's no reason it needs to stay the near-automated transportation that it's been in the past.
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Grinding isn't a bad thing, it's just horridly overused and not optional. I don't mind if there's little to do on them.

Being able to switch via the shoulder controls is a nice touch in Unleashed, and being able to jump and home-attack from them should be made so that when you are finished attacking, you can home back in on the rail, this way if you don't get back on, it's because you failed to tap a button to get back on.

As for acceleration while on the rail, perhaps a more responsive and effective version of the method used in Heroes. And if you want to have control in terms of balance, the method used in SA2 should be improved a tad so it's less difficult to fall off.

Also, only Sonic and a select few other characters should be able to grind. It could be another open opportunity for alternate paths per character.

Other characters that can grind, and why...

Shadow (It's established to be one of his basic moves.)

Blaze (Same as Shadow.)

Tails (Why not? He's fast.)

Jet (Same as Shadow and Blaze.)

Espio (Speed character with good balance.)

Amy (Because she's awesome.)

Big (for the lulz.)

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I'll agree that grinding on objects besides rails is the way to go. I remember when I found the alternate route in Radical Highway that let me grind on the bridge like in the opening. That was crazy.

I don't understand the credit SHtH gets for its grinding mechanics though. Just felt like more of Heroes to me.

Grinding has got to go, no compromises. They're more of the damn automation that's been dragging the series down.

About this, you're somewhat right. They're long and useless in games where they're overused. I happen to think they were best in SA2. But even when they're automated, they can be made to look good, like the clock tower in Unleashed. Not more than four seconds of that. In SA2 and even in Unleashed, you can grind on things that aren't rails, making them optional in some levels. The vertical rails in Final Rush used momentum and gave you height, which is a pretty creative use of them. The track switches in Rail Canyon were mostly automated, but that was a good concept as well.

What do you think of the comparison to zoom tubes? They're just high paced reaction games, in 3D.

Edited by Badnikz
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I don't understand the credit SHtH gets for its grinding mechanics though. Just felt like more of Heroes to me.

Actually, ShTH was where jumping from rail to rail became much less of a pain and led to the refined version in Unleashed.

Jumping from rail to rail in that game was much smoother than SA2 and Heroes.

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In my opinion, they are terrible and should go away. Or at least not have any really long levels with them.

They were nice in Sonic Adventure 2, namely city escape. But they over used them in Sky rail and the space levels.

Also, Sonic Heroes had WAY WAY WAY too much Grinding.

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About this, you're somewhat right. They're long and useless in games where they're overused. I happen to think they were best in SA2. But even when they're automated, they can be made to look good, like the clock tower in Unleashed. Not more than four seconds of that. In SA2 and even in Unleashed, you can grind on things that aren't rails, making them optional in some levels. The vertical rails in Final Rush used momentum and gave you height, which is a pretty creative use of them. The track switches in Rail Canyon were mostly automated, but that was a good concept as well.

What do you think of the comparison to zoom tubes? They're just high paced reaction games, in 3D.

Chemical Plant Zone tubes? Or some kind I'm forgetting? Chemical Plant Zone is such a visual overload that the tubes are a nice breather. They also allow for the level to be made longer. Levels can only be so big on the Genesis, and the tubes allow the player to go to the next segment. They were also a stage specific gimmick, so you spent less than half of one Zone in them, rather than like 20% of the real game.

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Stuff in bold are my responses.

Also, only Sonic and a select few other characters should be able to grind. It could be another open opportunity for alternate paths per character.

Other characters that can grind, and why...

Shadow (It's established to be one of his basic moves.)

Agreed. He's been grinding since his outset.

Blaze (Same as Shadow.)

Ditto.

Tails (Why not? He's fast.)

Doesn't mean he's meant to grind, unless he's following Sonic or something.

Jet (Same as Shadow and Blaze.)

Only if he finds himself in a platformer, which isn't very likely.

Espio (Speed character with good balance.)

Hmm... Last I checked, grinding wasn't something ninja were known for.

Amy (Because she's awesome.)

Too true. When I first saw her grind in those boots, her cool factor rose a good 10 points.

Big (for the lulz.)

No. He's got enough lulz at his expense already.

You also forgot Metal Sonic, who can do anything Sonic does.

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Doesn't Big grind using his crotch though? XD He did sometimes in Sonic Heroes, I think when you pressed the B button to grind faster.

Which is another annoying aspect about Sonic Heroes' grinding. There were parts where you would go much slower, with no boost things around. So you had to just..mash the B button to go faster!

And yes, rail jumping was awful in Heroes aswell. Sometimes I would lean to the right or left, then press jump and suddenly I would FLY off the rail to my death, for no reason.

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Espio (Speed character with good balance.)

Hmm... Last I checked, grinding wasn't something ninja were known for.

Doesn't mean Espio isn't skilled enough not to. It seems like it'd be in his nature.

Big (for the lulz.)

No. He's got enough lulz at his expense already.

Big has no boundaries.

He is everywhere at once.

Plus, the crotch-grind is unique. Gotta love that.

You also forgot Metal Sonic, who can do anything Sonic does.

Ah, fair enough. :)

Edited by Indigo Artemis
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Chemical Plant Zone tubes? Or some kind I'm forgetting? Chemical Plant Zone is such a visual overload that the tubes are a nice breather. They also allow for the level to be made longer. Levels can only be so big on the Genesis, and the tubes allow the player to go to the next segment. They were also a stage specific gimmick, so you spent less than half of one Zone in them, rather than like 20% of the real game.

I think he was talking more about the zoom tubes of the master system/game gear games which were like mini high speed mazes.

Chemical plant tubes... now that I think about it, were the very first instance of an automated event that's just there to look pretty. Unless I'm missing some way to manipulate the way you go in them. Coz holding down directions never works for me.

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I think he was talking more about the zoom tubes of the master system/game gear games which were like mini high speed mazes.

Yep, the ones in games like Sonic 2 MS-GG or Sonic Chaos, usually in the water or final levels. You had to go through a pipe maze to get the Aqua Lake emerald. I don't see much difference between holding directions down, or switching rails and jumping to the lost Chao. There was much more platforming involved with grinding in SA2. You mentioned the zoom tubes moving you from one place to another in small environments. One of the advantages of rails in 3D is moving Sonic in vertical space. More elegant than freefall, and it allows some shortcuts for the more advanced players, as seen in Final Rush.

Chemical plant tubes... now that I think about it, were the very first instance of an automated event that's just there to look pretty. Unless I'm missing some way to manipulate the way you go in them. Coz holding down directions never works for me.

I've been able to use the tubes to take me to different parts of the level. There's at least one set of tubes with a fork. I've always thought the first "whale" sequence was the airship chase on Angel Island in S3&K, even though that was kind of after the level.

Edited by Badnikz
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Chemical plant tubes... now that I think about it, were the very first instance of an automated event that's just there to look pretty. Unless I'm missing some way to manipulate the way you go in them. Coz holding down directions never works for me.

Your destination depends on where your facing when you enter the tubes, as far as I've witnessed.

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