Jump to content
Awoo.

Occupy Wall Street


novelty

Recommended Posts

Where have we gone? What have we done to get here? I find it so sad that people are protesting around the USA for the quality of life. Why America, Why go down as a stupid and shrewd nation instead of a smart, diligent one? Is it the food that is never baked and always fried? Is it the constant violence fed to children nationwide? Why oh why?

Why a country that had so much promise, fail?

I understand the total belief behind #occupywallstreet. The problem of suceeding in life at a nation that turned its ideals against itself. Yeah, people believe that they are nothing but hippies and hipsters and no-good-for-nothings; let them believe that. I have seen the other side behind the dirty exterior, It is the people who know whats going on the inside; the very same people who were up there that had it all. I don't see #Occupywallstreet as a movement anymore, because movements never go anywhere. I see this as a far cry for an anarchic storm brewing.

I used to have horrible dreams of just waking up in the same place, but different atmosphere. More of like a war-torn atmosphere, but with no true faction against another. I don't want to end up becoming a survivalist to live for the next day, and I don't want to beg to something that doesn't exist. Whats the worst part in this dream? Anonymous. It is not a monster, neither its not a being or a spirit. its a temperamental dark feeling that we all might change to just survive. Just being known is like gold for anyone who wants to take advantage of you.

Do you have any reason to believe that this is not stopping, or is it in your opinion that the movement is taking control?

Edited by Novelty
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The movement seems dead in the water, frankly. It doesn't even have a clearly defined agenda.

I've only even heard about this because I happen to know someone who was involved over the weekend and very nearly got arrested, and after doing some discreet background checking on the whole situation I have to say, I really couldn't give a rat's ass.

It occurs to me that this is one of the rare times when something going on in the US doesn't affect any other nation in the slightest, and as such I don't actually have any reason to care about the situation in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Um... I don't know from this post what on earth you're on about. Gimme a sec, I'll do some research...

Ok, back.

Occupy Wall Street is an ongoing demonstration in New York City.The protest was originally called for by the Canadian activist group Adbusters, taking inspiration from the Arab Spring movement, particularly the Tahrir Square protests in Cairo which initiated the 2011 Egyptian Revolution The participants of the event are mainly protesting against social economic inequality and corporate greed, among other concerns... The protest's organizers hope that the protestors themselves will formulate their own specific demands, expecting them to be focused on "taking to task the people who perpetrated the economic meltdown". By October 1, similar demonstrations were held in Washington, Los Angeles, Boston, Chicago, Miami and Portland, Maine, and Denver.

Ok, so there's basically two main things here. First: Economic equality. Until the people with the dosh get the right attitude, all efforts to do this sort of thing fail. Why? Mainly because they believe that whatever money they make is theirs and it's unfair on them to have it given away to other people. And while personally, I find that attitude callous, the US' focus on the rights of the individual means that they have every right to do what they want with their money. Some people call it the 'Screw you, I've got mine' argument.

As for the second, why the Bankers aren't being punished for causing the economic turmoil of the last couple of years, and why no-one's cracking down on them cheating their taxes. (The tax cheating being the biggest issue the UK's facing right now. We're having to cut our budgets, but we wouldn't have to if we were tougher on cheating millionaires.) They're not being punished because they'd just up and leave. Move to Swizerland or Dehli or the United Arab Emirates. Then the country would be in an even bigger mess. Our governments don't really have the balls to take that kind of decision.

So until these things are sorted, I see little changing. The campaigning is a way to show and maybe let off a little steam, but little ever changes.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I heard about this awhile ago but I didn't necessarily care either, and I'm actually in agreement with a few of their platforms, namely standing against wealth disparity. The movement seems pretty quiet and disorganized, and a recent demonstration was apparently an impediment to the goings-on of New York streets, slowing traffic and littering and whatnot, and people certainly weren't going to give the time of day to that regardless of the point attempting to be made. And I'm already of the cynical opinion that not enough people are going to do shit about wealth disparity and Wall Street debauchery until we're in more dire straits than we are now. So yeah, good intentions but it's not going to do a damn thing.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was at one of the protests. To be honest, I don't blame the people. I watch it on livestream and the way they answer questions it seems like a thought out process.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This sort of equality is about helping people not to live in a shithole with no prospects, not a belief that all tax should be equal. Besides, even if conservatives do give more to charities than liberals, it's still less than the taxes they pay.

People being so attached to their principles that they let other people needlessly suffer saddens me

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, but most of this simply boils down to:

U HAVE GOOD ECONOMY OR I WILL THROW MOLOTOV!!!111!

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It occurs to me that this is one of the rare times when something going on in the US doesn't affect any other nation in the slightest, and as such I don't actually have any reason to care about the situation in the first place.
  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://consequenceofsound.net/2011/10/watch-jeff-mangum-play-occupy-wall-street/

Moments ago, Neutral Milk Hotel’s Jeff Mangum delivered a surprise performance at the Occupy Wall Street protests in lower Manhattan. Spanning just over 30 minutes, the set included Neutral Milk Hotel favorites like “Holland, 1945″, “In the Aeroplane Over the Sea”, “The King of Carrot Flowers Part 1″, and ”Oh Comely”, along with a cover of Minutemen’s “Themselves”. For those who missed it, you can watch a video replay below.

IIIIIIIIIII LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU JESUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS CHRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIST

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the Arab spring has spread and now the American fall is on the move? Feels both expected and natural for some reason. Why?

LOL, I doubt another American Revolution. America is in a completely different postion than Libya!tongue.png

EDIT: Your politics baffle me are you a roll my eyes Kumbaya Liberal or you a hipster communist who know nothing about communism? huh.png

Edited by BW199148
Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://consequenceof...py-wall-street/

Moments ago, Neutral Milk Hotel’s Jeff Mangum delivered a surprise performance at the Occupy Wall Street protests in lower Manhattan. Spanning just over 30 minutes, the set included Neutral Milk Hotel favorites like “Holland, 1945″, “In the Aeroplane Over the Sea”, “The King of Carrot Flowers Part 1″, and ”Oh Comely”, along with a cover of Minutemen’s “Themselves”. For those who missed it, you can watch a video replay below.

IIIIIIIIIII LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU JESUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS CHRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIST

Well, even the minute chance of this thing doing any good is now officially gone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lemanic - EVERY time there's a political discussion on the forum, I get at least two or three reports about your contributions. I'm really not sure what to say to you at this point, because you are of course entitled to your point of view. However, you rarely make any sense whatsoever and your mere presence in these topics seems to cause friction. I'd like to believe that you're not deliberately trolling, however you MUST be aware that the things you say are both controversial AND incredibly tactless.

I'm going to keep a close eye on this because I don't want to restrict anyone's freedom of speech, but this is becoming a definite problem.

  • Thumbs Up 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess you guys view it through a normalcy bias (could be wrong though).

Lematic's Viewpoint is extreme. True, but extreme.

Simple as this: If you read the book 1984 by George Orwell, then you would understand that there was one part that mentioned the only way a smartly suppressed government would be overthrown by the people who look like they do not have any values. The exact quote is this:

But the proles, if only they could somehow become conscious of their own strength, would have no need to conspire. They needed only to rise up and shake themselves like a horse shaking off flies. If they chose they could blow the Party to pieces tomorrow morning. Surely sooner or later it must occur to them to do it? And yet -----!

So now, these so-called "funky hipster dudes and dudettes" found out that they have actual power to do something instead of complaining. If you think of it this way, the people stopped talking and started something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The second you mention 1984 in a discussion like this is the exact second where your point becomes such ridiculous hyperbole that it quite frankly isn't worth listening to.

This isn't an uprising against a corrupt totalitarian regime that works to stifle free speech. It isn't that no matter what way you try to spin it. This is a bunch of people whining about class warfare while calling for things that advocate class warfare. That's why most people don't care about it and why it isn't getting any news dedicated to it. That's why the movement has no power behind it outside of questions about the NYPD's tactics with dealing with it. That's why this won't lead to anything.

Edited by TGaP Tornado
  • Thumbs Up 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It'd be nice if people stopped casually stating factoids without backing them up with reliable sources, especially when said factoid is a sweeping generalisation.

As one of the worst offenders I say this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I am the silly person for doing this. Why make this topic? for topic value and just to discuss. Honestly, I expected a different opinion; but I can not do whatever to persuade or what not.

So, its just a bum riot....

lol, bum riot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Watch this.

Kaythxbai!

Also forgot to mention that I participated in Occupy Los Angeles with a friend of mine.

So.

It's not thAt the people are "Baw why are they rich and not me."

It's: Where the hell are the jobs, where is my tax money going, why are they making me pay even more taxes, why aren't the banks and corporations being taxed?

I've been paying attention to the Corp. And Banks a lot lately and they haven't payed a single dime to taxes.

  • Thumbs Up 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Watch this.

Kaythxbai!

Also forgot to mention that I participated in Occupy Los Angeles with a friend of mine.

So.

It's not thAt the people are "Baw why are they rich and not me."

It's: Where the hell are the jobs, where is my tax money going, why are they making me pay even more taxes, why aren't the banks and corporations being taxed?

I've been paying attention to the Corp. And Banks a lot lately and they haven't payed a single dime to taxes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Watch this.

Kaythxbai!

Also forgot to mention that I participated in Occupy Los Angeles with a friend of mine.

So.

It's not thAt the people are "Baw why are they rich and not me."

It's: Where the hell are the jobs, where is my tax money going, why are they making me pay even more taxes, why aren't the banks and corporations being taxed?

I've been paying attention to the Corp. And Banks a lot lately and they haven't payed a single dime to taxes.

I don't hear much about the Occupy LA. I was at one here on the East Coast with a friend of mine, we were curious as to what was going on.How was the LA one?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't take these people seriously if they bring bongo drums.

Despite them being against corporations that escape repercussions of their actions and get handed wealthfare, I just can't take them seriously with the bongo drums.

There is an Occupy Orlando around here as well...I specifically demanded that they don't bring bongo drums.

Edited by turbojet
  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're not productive, you get no money. If you get no money, you get no house. Though shit.

So, the measure by which you determine whether or not a person is deserving of the means by which to live and support themselves is dependant on their ability to be productive? I believe Pol Pot said similar things. I find such pathological callousness for the wellbeing of your fellow human beings to be deeply disturbing.

Do you really believe that there ought to be no social safety net or other means of state support for people who, for whatever reason, may be unable to provide for themselves? Moreover, your attitude betrays the assumption that people who are “not productive”, as you put it, are somehow to blame for their own lack of productivity. Firstly, I would disagree with you that productivity is solely the ability to make money, but that’s tangential to the real issue. The real problem is that, like so many conservatives, you insist on blaming the victims for being in their situation. Does it not occur to you that some people are genuinely less fortunate than you? Some people are born into poverty and given few real prospects in life; they don’t get a good education, or the right kind of support to put any effort into learning. All of that starts at home; if a child isn’t given support and encouragement by their parents, the chances are they’re not going to do well in school. And even if they do, higher education is expensive and the price keeps going up, which is a huge deterrent to people from low and even middle income backgrounds, because they don’t want to be saddled with massive debts. Moreover, plenty of people with the right kind of prospects went into higher education, and then came out just after the banks crashed and dragged our economies down the drain with them, and now they can’t find a job at all and not for lack of trying; I know plenty of people in that situation, and if Britain lacked a social safety net, as you seem to want to see in your country, they’d be pretty much screwed. The fact is, plenty of people are “not productive” through no fault of their own. Did that not occur to you? Or did it occur to you and you simply don’t care?

I know it's harsh, but it's the only economic system that actually works indefinitely. And I never said it was about a belief tha all tax should be equal.

That’s a bold claim. The only economic system that works indefinitely? Really? Wow! That’s an incredible assertion. I presume that you have some equally incredible evidence to go with it? And what do you say about a country like Germany, which has a social market economy, which necessarily include government intervention to provide social welfare and public services, including the very social safety net you want to cut down? By your logic, Germany should be a poor nation, but when last I checked (a couple of seconds ago), Germany was the wealthiest country in Europe and one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Germany even exited the recession that’s still affecting our countries in the second and third quarters of 2009. How do you explain that, if your system is the only one that works? Moreover, what do you mean by “works”? Because, I don’t think there’s any way in which I would describe an economic system that leaves those who are “not productive” without any means of support as a system that “works”. To me, “works” necessarily refers to a system that benefits society as a whole, not just those who are “productive”.

Perhaps it would be more if they weren't being taxed so goddamn much in the first place. If I were poor, I would feel more compelled to spend any money I got from charity more responsibly if I received it from a human being instead of a bunch of faceless figures in Washington.

I think we’ve reached heart of the problem. You’re not poor. You don’t need help. It’s easy to moralise about these issues when you’ve not experienced them for yourself; it’s like a man trying to say what he’d do if he were a woman and he found himself with an unwanted pregnancy, or a panel of exclusively white middle class people trying to discuss the problems of black working class people. It’s absurd. You’re not in that situation--with any luck, you never will be. So you can only speculate about what you’d think or do if you actually needed help. In my experience (and I have been in a situation where I needed financial support), I didn’t care that the money came from The Big Scary Impersonal Government; all I cared about was that it came and that it was enough for me to support myself. Unless you find yourself in a similar situation, I don’t think you have any business saying what you would do, to say nothing of moralising about what others ought to do.

Moreover, charities in place of a social safety net would be wonderful in an ideal world, where everyone who could afford to gave generously to charities, where those charities had enough money to completely shoulder the burden of providing for the less fortunate, and where no charity’s support was contingent upon joining a church or not being gay. But we don’t live in that world. You can speculate all you like about how much more people would give to charity if only they weren’t saddled with so much tax, but you’ve done nothing to demonstrate it. Moreover, even it were true, charities simply do not have a guaranteed source of income, whereas the government more-or-less does. It is a much more reliable way of ensuring that people who need support actually get it.

Also, as a side note, Liberals are more likely to cheat on their taxes than Conservatives.

Mmm! Smell that red herring!

The fuck does that even mean?? My principles are charitable; I have a Liberal heart and a Conservative mind. But what if I didn't? Principles lead to policy, no matter what one believes. If we stopped practicing what we believed in so we could benefit those who need help, then aren't we consciously ignoring what we believe is the right way to solve these problems?

As far as I can tell, you don’t actually believe in solving these problems at all, because...

If you're not productive, you get no money. If you get no money, you get no house. Though shit.

Am I wrong? If so, then please, enlighten us as to how you would solve these problems. I’m dying to find out.

  • Thumbs Up 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not thAt the people are "Baw why are they rich and not me."

Yeah, it basically is. Any grand message that might have been behind this movement was lost the instant the movement actually started.

It's: Where the hell are the jobs,

Being outsourced and eliminated to cut costs.

where is my tax money going,

The government doesn't even know that at this point.

why are they making me pay even more taxes,

Because despite the above point, the government hasn't stopped spending money.

why aren't the banks and corporations being taxed?

Because they all got bailed out despite fucking up and causing this whole mess, and the end result after the bailout money is taken into account is, in some cases, a negative tax rate.

I've been paying attention to the Corp. And Banks a lot lately and they haven't payed a single dime to taxes.

And this is something that one probably shouldn't say without figures to back it up.

Edited by TGaP Tornado
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And this is something that one probably shouldn't say without figures to back it up.

I'll figure out those figures. It might take awhile, but I have a calculator and the CBO. Yeah...

EDIT: Okay, the CBO is kind of out dated in terms of tax distribution so the OMB is where I go to answer this question.

EDIT 2: Nothing on the OMB other than the political agendas so I guess I'll use the CBO 2006 chart.

tax2006_2.gif

Okay. The lowest quintile represents the poorest of the poor while the highest represents the highest of the high.

If that is too vague, well good ol' turbojet will supply your ass with numbers.

The highest quintile shared at least 70% of all tax liabilities as of 2006.

The top 10% pay 55%. Top 5 pay 44.7%. Top 1 pay 28%.

Now, this does not count the Bush Tax Cuts being extended and all that so I really have no fucking clue who is paying taxes, but if I were to guess, it would be the same.

Yall motherfuckers better like this.

EDIT 3: Okay okay okay. I went to scholarly sources and finally found an answer to this question.

Figure_6.gif

Okay. Here we go. The lowest 20 percent spend 16% of their income on taxes as shown on the chart. Not bad right? Wrong. The chart keeps going 5 percent per income level until we get to the top 10%. It starts to stifle or become less.

Figure_7.gif

Also, the Top 20 receive 60% of all income and pay 64% of the taxes. Now look at the the lower classes. They share a marginal amount of income, but pay the same amount that they earn.

Also, this.

So the best estimates that can be put together from official government numbers show a little bit of progressivity. But the details on those who earn millions of dollars each year are very hard to come by, because they can stash a large part of their wealth in off-shore tax havens in the Caribbean and little countries in Europe, starting with Switzerland. And there are many loopholes and gimmicks they can use, as summarized with striking examples in Free Lunchand Perfectly Legal, the books by Johnston that were mentioned earlier. For example, Johnston explains the ways in which high earners can hide their money and delay on paying taxes, and then invest for a profit what normally would be paid in taxes.

So yeah. There is that.

Like this or I hate everyone.

Edited by turbojet
  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been quite impressed with how much steam this movement has been picking up as of late, and I do hope the people protesting hold their ground. There's been talk about how the movement needs more focus on what they're protesting for and whatnot, but from my point of view, it seems that they're clear on why they're protesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.