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Awoo.

modern demo?


jords

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Oh christ, that line gets dumber by the second. Between the demo and all the videos we've seen, even now we can't possibly judge the game? Not even a little?

Don't be a silly mon, mon, of course you're allowed to judge the game, especially after all the videos and demos. You're just not allowed to judge the game in any way that carries the slightest implications that you don't like something about the game for whatever reason, is all.

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I mean, Jesus, I don't know how that pizza tastes just by looking at it do I?
Depends. Has someone taken a shit on it? Is there a warm curly turd sitting on the pizza? Because in that case I think you'd be pretty justified in saying the pizza tastes like shit before you bite into it.

Look, man. This idea that you can't judge a game until you've played every part of it is ridiculous. That kind of thinking completely negates the concept of previews, reviews, trailers, and demos. It claims that the only reasonable opinion can come from after you've dropped ~$50 on the game and finished playing it (or ~$5 for a rental or whatever, if you want to be technical). And I do, most certainly, believe that the more you play a game, the better developed your opinions of it can be. But that applies throughout the whole process of following the game; it's not a sharp jump from 0% credible to 100% credible once you've 100%ed it. Every piece of information helps you build an opinion, whether it's reviews, videos, or actually playing it. To reject a reasonable and informed complaint simply because they haven't played every bit of the game is childish and basically makes discussion nothing more than a circle jerk of praise (and of course, it's always okay to praise a game, regardless of how little you've played it...).

Edited by Diogenes
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Well, a video that shows depth proves a stage has depth...whereas a video with linearity doesn't prove linearity as other paths might not have been apparent in the run for whatever reason.

People have different standards for Sonic games, though. I don't see why we have to attack other Sonic fans who want different experiences. At some point, some people won't like the direction of a franchise. Being a minority opinion shouldn't mean you get beat up. I mean, I've never really liked Mario 64...opinions are opinions.

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People have different standards for Sonic games, though. I don't see why we have to attack other Sonic fans who want different experiences. At some point, some people won't like the direction of a franchise. Being a minority opinion shouldn't mean you get beat up. I mean, I've never really liked Mario 64...opinions are opinions.

And being part of the majority opinion doesn't mean you have to get snapped at, shitted on, or being called "shallow" fans that settle for less, by people in the minority either.

Allow the slight ghetto in me to show a bit and let me say "Respect goes both ways son...this ain't no one way fucking street."

Edited by V0YANT
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Fair enough, but arguments always escalate and stupid junk gets said. It's just nice to me to have the positive view on a Sonic game be the majority lol.

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Fair enough, but arguments always escalate and stupid junk gets said. It's just nice to me to have the positive view on a Sonic game be the majority lol.

hahah I gotcha man point taken! tongue.png

Edited by V0YANT
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Yeah, because all of us have clearly played this game in it's entirety.

I can tell what a level's design is by looking at it because I can see it. With my eyes.

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I think we can judge the physics and handling at this point, however depth of level design and assortment of missions we can only judge with what we've seen. Green Hill is a cake walk, there's no denying that, City Escape is definitely an improvement, but it isn't the hallmark of 3D platforming, either. But once we get into Seaside Hill, we start to see something a lot more in-depth, and what can we say about Speed Highway or Crisis City? Not much since we haven't seen them.

If you wanted to play Sonic Generations based off of how he handles, and he doesn't match your criteria, you have just reason to avoid the game. But if it's based off of level depth of the ENTIRE game, then it might be worth it to sit tight for a while and look up some playthroughs once the game comes out. If that doesn't suit your fancy, then that's fine.

I guess the idea I'm trying to propose is that certain aspects of the game can be judged at this point, but other aspects we still need more information. I mean, who could say they won't be buying the game because the cutscenes are bad? We've only seen some screenshots so far.

Not directed at anyone in particular, by the way.

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Depends. Has someone taken a shit on it? Is there a warm curly turd sitting on the pizza? Because in that case I think you'd be pretty justified in saying the pizza tastes like shit before you bite into it.

Look, man. This idea that you can't judge a game until you've played every part of it is ridiculous. That kind of thinking completely negates the concept of previews, reviews, trailers, and demos. It claims that the only reasonable opinion can come from after you've dropped ~$50 on the game and finished playing it (or ~$5 for a rental or whatever, if you want to be technical). And I do, most certainly, believe that the more you play a game, the better developed your opinions of it can be. But that applies throughout the whole process of following the game; it's not a sharp jump from 0% credible to 100% credible once you've 100%ed it. Every piece of information helps you build an opinion, whether it's reviews, videos, or actually playing it. To reject a reasonable and informed complaint simply because they haven't played every bit of the game is childish and basically makes discussion nothing more than a circle jerk of praise (and of course, it's always okay to praise a game, regardless of how little you've played it...).

I don't see how saying Modern Sky Sanctuary is just "Jumping over a few things and using a ring to skip over sections entirely" is a well informed and reasonable complaint when that person hasn't touched that stage for his/herself at all yet.

Basing your opinion of a game around previews, reviews, and videos is fine and dandy, and both sides of the fence are doing that, yes.

But it still doesn't compare to playing the entire package for yourself, does it? It's stupid to think you know everything about every stage, every mission, etc. when we have been watching videos that usually stick to one route, or don't try and take the time to explore anything at all.

And, really, sometimes I feel like it isn't okay to defend the game at all, because as soon as we debate about Pros and Cons people defending the game get shat on because we aren't respecting the opinions of people who have an issue with something...

EDIT:

I can tell what a level's design is by looking at it because I can see it. With my eyes.

Well, shit!

Can you please tell me where every route goes in Modern Sky Sanctuary?

Hell, while your at it, explain Seaside Hill's too!

Because I'm sure as fuck I can't see where everything leads with my eyes.

Edited by Xenos
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Now I understand that this game doesn't have physics 1:1 with the Classics but...ahhh...

Yeah....take it what you will.

.....dat momentum.

The Japanese never cease to amaze me in gaming prowess. I wanna try that when I get the chance.

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Soniman, do not for the love of god think about making a video-only spam post after we've already got done warning members against this again.

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But it still doesn't compare to playing the entire package for yourself, does it?
I already said that the more you play the game the better informed your opinion is. That doesn't mean you can't criticize a game until you've seen everything.

It's stupid to think you know everything about every stage, every mission, etc. when we have been watching videos that usually stick to one route, or don't try and take the time to explore anything at all.
No shit! No one's saying they do! They're looking at what we've got and extrapolating to the best of their ability. There's nothing wrong with that, so stop bitching about it.

And, really, sometimes I feel like it isn't okay to defend the game at all, because as soon as we debate about Pros and Cons people defending the game get shat on because we aren't respecting the opinions of people who have an issue with something...
When you try to shut down complaints by saying we haven't played the entire game so we can't judge it, you deserve to get shat on. Defend the game with evidence and reasoning, don't just dodge the question.
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I already said that the more you play the game the better informed your opinion is. That doesn't mean you can't criticize a game until you've seen everything.

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Soniman, do not for the love of god think about making a video-only spam post after we've already got done warning members against this again.

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Gah. We've entered internet arguing hell, where people constantly restate their opinions...in slightly different contexts! Same thoughts, though.

Look, we all judge games based on checking out videos and stuff right? We don't go buy every game to test it out lol. I knew Sonic 4 would be bad just looking at Splash Hill.

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@Phos

I laughed pretty hard at this.

EDIT: Perhaps I should elaborate:

What were you expecting? Rather what is it you want? It has plenty of solid platforming. Plenty of branching paths. Or are you one of the folk that want an "Open world" Sonic level, which you can "explore"?

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I want a place that you can look around and understand, a cohesive whole and not simply a collection of events arranged in order.

My problems with this game's level design are much more deep routed than spots here and there. It is with their entire concept of how a level functions. They are simply a collection of straight lines going from one place to another, parallel to each other and just like Unleashed and Colors before them, are not places, simply tracks. Zoom out and only show the pathable areas, and I bet it would even look like the timeline on a nonlinear video editor.

Edited by V0YANT
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My problems with this game's level design are much more deep routed than spots here and there. It is with their entire concept of how a level functions. They are simply a collection of straight lines going from one place to another, parallel to each other and just like Unleashed and Colors before them, are not places, simply tracks. Zoom out and only show the pathable areas, and I bet it would even look like the timeline on a nonlinear video editor.

This really gets me, honestly what do you want then? Because when used to its full potential (Sky Sanctuary, Seaside Hill), the levels are non-linear to a point where it's acceptable for a series like Sonic. A sandbox style game is terrible idea (not saying you support it) because Sonic needs direction, with a clear goal, with a clear path. If I zoomed out on SS or SSH they would not look like timelines at all, because I recall many times where the levels twist and turn.

And what of the 2D areas? From what of ive see there, the're pleny plenty of ways to go about completing them. And, again, add more depth to the Unleashed formula than people let on.

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Fair enough, but arguments always escalate and stupid junk gets said. It's just nice to me to have the positive view on a Sonic game be the majority lol.

A-fucking-Men.

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The multi tiered level design branching top, middle and low...with mistakes sending you down to a lower path...seems to be the natural 3D evolution of the S3&K's level design. The Sonic series has never existed in an open world, barring Hub worlds, all 3D Sonic titles have essentially been linear with sidepaths and shortcuts. The Adventure Era really wasn't any more wide open than the Unleashed era in practical terms. The paths were wider, but the levels were A-B-C in terms of level progression. The alternate routes just gave you a shorter path of B, but still dumped you at the same end point ( C ). This doesn't match up to the Classics at all.

Whereas, from what I can see in Generations...alternate paths aren't just shortcuts(outside of Green Hill/Chemical Plant). You have multiple routes leading to different points...that also have different routes. Sure, you still end up at the same ending. But the alternate paths are not just "Fast route/ slow route" in these levels. You might be better at one route than the other, they can be equally valid. As "open" as the Adventure games were, there was a "correct" path for acing the level. I'm not sure that's the case here.

I probably shouldn't try to make a complicated point at midnight, btw. It probably sounds garbled and junky. But in all honesty, Modern in Generations feels like what Sonic was(to me) in the 90's. If it doesn't fit your expectations, that sucks. I wish it did. But I think open world in Sonic games is a terrible idea. The Unleashed style could still use some depth added to it, but I consider it vastly superior to the Adventure titles.

I know tl;dr

Edited by Crazizzle
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I want a place that you can look around and understand, a cohesive whole and not simply a collection of events arranged in order.

Fair enough. Its just, the Mega Drive games didn't have any of this. Where did the notion that they had "exploration" come from? As complex as the level designs are, to me, they just look like a different number of ways you can get to the end of the stage. Where did the idea that in order for a 3D Sonic game to be good, it must have open spaces that you can look around. Sure its nice, but is it needed?

I mean, can you give me an example of a game (any game, doesn't have to be Sonic) which did what you wanted it to do?

My problems with this game's level design are much more deep routed than spots here and there. It is with their entire concept of how a level functions. They are simply a collection of straight lines going from one place to another, parallel to each other and just like Unleashed and Colors before them, are not places, simply tracks. Zoom out and only show the pathable areas, and I bet it would even look like the timeline on a nonlinear video editor.

So? There is no reason why such a level design ethos is not fun to play. It doesn't need to do all this crap with expansive levels with undiscrete routes where you can literally explore to find routes. Firstly, the stage itself would be impractically large (then there is the fact that there are 9-12 of them and they all get steadily longer/more difficult) and secondly, its much harder to spread level design across an area that large. The beauty with the current design mentality of discrete routes and parallel paths, is that you can afford a greater density of actual level design within a given space (though it probably isn't to the best it can be.

Again, can you please give me an example of any game which does what you want. It will give me a better understanding of what you're talking about.

If its too off-topic PM me.

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Fair enough. Its just, the Mega Drive games didn't have any of this. Where did the notion that they had "exploration" come from?

That's how I went berserk during my time at TSSZ: people wouldn't stop pulling the exploration card out of their asses.

If I wanted to explore in a Sonic game, I'd be playing Sonic 3D Blast.

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Generations is more open than Unleashed and Colors, we can only hope it's a trend for future releases to follow.

Hopefully, Colours was mostly 2D, and Unleashed was overly narrow and scripted.
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Something that kinda bothers me is this:

Nnononono.jpg

All the area surrounded by red is not accessible. You can only move in a straight line here, even if you stop and try. It's just so stupidly unnecessary =_=

Edited by MarcelloF
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