Sonic's ideal characterization topic

[Diogenes]

On the other hand. Sonic telling Tails to take care of Amy before he was "exploded" holds far more weight and meaning since Sonic presented himself as a balanced character rather than the 1 dimensional puppet he is now.

Colors Sonic is one-dimensional, because he doesn't care about his friends. When Colors Sonic shows care for his friend, this doesn't count, because Colors Sonic is one-dimensional.

Such a nice little circle of logic.

[Soniman]

Every single one of those "caring" moments felt like contrived, Saturday morning cartoon" moral reminders, jammed in at the last second to remind us that Sonic isn't a complete bastard and that we can still like the blue prick just a little.

In the case of SLW, I don't see how Sonic spending half the damn game regretting his choices is somehow "jammed in at the last second", it had a setup, there were repercussions and Sonic had to amend them. It's pretty straightforward and spread throughout the entire game. You make it sound like Sonic doesnt give a fucking shit about his friends when he blatnatly does, but you dismiss them because...it's not good enough?

 

Why replicate Colors "drama" when we have so many better examples to build off of. The "Oops! I screwed up!" cliche is so played out. It would be much more interesting to think that Sonic had really out smarted Eggman in one game but. over the span of a few games. Eggman gets the jump on Sonic and shows him just where he slipped up. then Sonic REALLY realizes that his actions have lasting repercussions as Eggman shows that Sonic's predictable mistake gave Eggman the opportunity to complete his "master plan".

 

How would having it play out over the course of several games have the message more poignant then just having it in one? You just see it later rather then sooner.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I might have a lot of problems in regards to how Lost World and Colors were structured and how they overload the story with excessive jokes that served no real purpose most of the time, and their tendency to start and drop plot points at a dime, but I can't really say that I saw Sonic as uncaring towards his friends at any point.

[100Rings]

Colors Sonic is one-dimensional, because he doesn't care about his friends. When Colors Sonic shows care for his friend, this doesn't count, because Colors Sonic is one-dimensional.

Such a nice little circle of logic.

hahahaha nice railroading of my logic xD

ah anyways since you took my words out if their context and tweaked them. I'll explain

 

I repeatedly said it wasn't "genuine". Allow me to explain this.

 

Sonic showing disinterest in Tails and his achievement (makes an alien translator and Sonic brushing it aside) and showing more interest in smack talking Eggman for 99% of the game until the end where "lol bromance" and "oh noez gawtta saev teelz!" takes place is rushed, disinteresting, cliche and beneath what the series has proven to be capable of. I have stated this in my original post but you must have missed the point somehow.

[100Rings]

In the case of SLW, I don't see how Sonic spending half the damn game regretting his choices is somehow "jammed in at the last second", it had a setup, there were repercussions and Sonic had to amend them. It's pretty straightforward and spread throughout the entire game. You make it sound like Sonic doesnt give a fucking shit about his friends when he blatnatly does, but you dismiss them because...it's not good enough?

 

 

 

 

How would having it play out over the course of several games have the message more poignant then just having it in one? You just see it later rather then sooner.

If by Sonic regretting his choice you mean "Sonic let's Zor walks away from him with the knowledge of Tails' whereabouts" then no that is indeed jammed in. Sonic in SLW didn't give a crap about Tails opinion in the slightest. He screwed up by kicking the conch said "I should have listened to you Tails" or w/e then turns back around and does the same exact thing. Then he goes on to say some prideful "I'm supposed to be the fastest!" As if Sonic is implying he deserves to be the fastest of everyone in existence. Then he goes on to say how he was "Too slow to save his buddy" or w/e when....all he had to do was listen to Tails in the first place like he admitted he needed to do just a few scenes ago. Not only that but Sonic tears off into Eggman calling him all sorts of things without showing a shred of remorse directly after he screws up with the conch. It is never explained or even implied why Eggman all of a sudden saves Sonic except for being a "complicated man" (oh god lol) and then turns around and try's to kill/defeat/make him eat dirt as a final boss.

 

He doesn't regard Amy or Knuckles as something that can contribute or help. He constantly tells them to sit there and be useless. He ignores them until they are "gone" and doesn't show a shred of care before the rushed "all hope is lost" moment.

 

He doesn't even rough up Zor after he literally walked away from him.

 

As for the Eggman/Sonic point I made. Ok maybe over the span of a few games is a tad excessive. I am really trying to say the stakes should be higher. Sonic losing Knuckles, Amy, Eggman and Tails evokes absolutely nothing since they were all incompetent and joke characters. Sonic "losing them" felt so hilariously forced that I literally giggled when Eggman went ca-reening into the lava below only to have the knowledge that he would appear later on (who didn't know that?) Knuckels and Amy being "drained of life" of whatever was equally as dumb since I had 0 connection with the characters at all. Whether Sonic treats his friends good or poor in SLW doesn't even really matter. His friends were slices of cardboard cutouts that filled generic plot roles. It doesn't matter if you treat cardboard good or poor since cardboard is not deserving of treatment in the first place. Nothing in SLW is emotionally genuine on any level whatsoever. It was written by a stock writer with no knowledge of the series for God's sake! How many excuses can you in all logical honesty make for it?

 

Sonic in SLW is not the best example to use if you want to show how much he cares for his friends. Perhaps I can point you to Sonic Adventure or Sonic Battle. 

[Diogenes]

It is never explained or even implied why Eggman all of a sudden saves Sonic except for being a "complicated man" (oh god lol) and then turns around and try's to kill/defeat/make him eat dirt as a final boss.

It's because he was using them to distract/defeat the Zeti so he could take back control of his machine.

I swear, it's like no one actually pays any attention to the game.

[100Rings]

It's because he was using them to distract/defeat the Zeti so he could take back control of his machine.

I swear, it's like no one actually pays any attention to the game.

Ok I concede on that. Must look at all the variables.

 

But if that is legitimately all you have to say in response to my overall point, I know the argument is over.

 

And can you blame the person that if game doesn't get their attention in the first place? Food for thought...

[Kuzu]

I kind of get what he's saying, he's just explaining it in an extremely obnoxious manner, and using extremely hyperbolic statements.

Like seriously, 100rings, you're acting as if Sonic has become a dog kicking sociopath. Tone down the statements and people will take you seriously, because right you're coming off as a whiny fanboy despite the points you're making.

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[Diogenes]

But if that is legitimately all you have to say in response to my overall point,

It ain't. But the way I figure, there ain't nothing I could say to change your mind, nor you to mine. So I figure it's best for both of us if I just pick out your most egregious mistakes rather than wasting time vomiting paragraphs of text that won't make a difference.

And can you blame the person that if game doesn't get their attention in the first place?

If you're going to try to argue about it? Shit yeah I'll blame the person who couldn't be bothered to educate themselves on the subject.

[100Rings]

I kind of get what he's saying, he's just explaining it in an extremely obnoxious manner, and using extremely hyperbolic statements.

Like seriously, 100rings, you're acting as if Sonic has become a dog kicking sociopath. Tone down the statements and people will take you seriously, because right you're coming off as a whiny fanboy despite the points you're making.

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I see many people here on TSS more devoted to pointing out tone of voice rather than actual validity of points. It is a debate. My hyperbolic tone of voice shouldn't concern you. The opponent's main concern in the midst of a debate is to find lapses in logic and exploit them. Whether I present them in a different way doesn't matter. If you can't take the truth seriously why bother debating. You seem to be more preoccupied psychoanalyzing tone of voice instead of responding with your own arguments (not specifically you but you get the idea.)

 

And I don't think Sonic is a dog kicking sociopath. I just think he is getting to the point of being just as unlikable as Ben Tennyson. *shudders*

[Mr Useful]

And can you blame the person that if game doesn't get their attention in the first place? Food for thought...

If the game doesn't get your attention why are you even playing it?

[100Rings]

It ain't. But the way I figure, there ain't nothing I could say to change your mind, nor you to mine. So I figure it's best for both of us if I just pick out your most egregious mistakes rather than wasting time vomiting paragraphs of text that won't make a difference.

If you're going to try to argue about it? Shit yeah I'll blame the person who couldn't be bothered to educate themselves on the subject.

Well in that case you aren't interested in debating.

 

Concession accepted. 

[Vertekins]

I have issues with Colours Sonic but no way is he some kind of supreme dick who's completely adverse to Tails' input/role. If anything, Colours was thoroughly deserving of praise in regards to most of it's portrayal of Sonic-Tails bromance. Yes, he can be an obnoxious braggart who's actions lose impact because they don't have the same kind of feel regarding his actions speaking louder than his words in previous games. But no way is he this big bad jerk that some of you guys are making him out to be. Colours Sonic is not Chronicles Sonic, nowhere even close.

[Xenos]

I see many people here on TSS more devoted to pointing out tone of voice rather than actual validity of points. It is a debate. My hyperbolic tone of voice shouldn't concern you. The opponent's main concern in the midst of a debate is to find lapses in logic and exploit them. Whether I present them in a different way doesn't matter. If you can't take the truth seriously why bother debating. You seem to be more preoccupied psychoanalyzing tone of voice instead of responding with your own arguments (not specifically you but you get the idea.)

 

And I don't think Sonic is a dog kicking sociopath. I just think he is getting to the point of being just as unlikable as Ben Tennyson. *shudders*

 

 

I don't think we need to turn into robots here, justifying your frankly bad tone and awful behavior just because it's a debate doesn't work. Even in a debate I think it's fair to assume both parties in said debate carry themselves in a respectful manner so people actually give enough of a shit to listen to them, otherwise they just sound like they're spewing inflammatory nonsense.

 

Also, regarding what you're saying as the truth is laughable at best, you should probably not do that.

[Kuzu]

I see many people here on TSS more devoted to pointing out tone of voice rather than actual validity of points. It is a debate. My hyperbolic tone of voice shouldn't concern you. The opponent's main concern in the midst of a debate is to find lapses in logic and exploit them. Whether I present them in a different way doesn't matter. If you can't take the truth seriously why bother debating. You seem to be more preoccupied psychoanalyzing tone of voice instead of responding with your own arguments (not specifically you but you get the idea.)

And I don't think Sonic is a dog kicking sociopath. I just think he is getting to the point of being just as unlikable as Ben Tennyson. *shudders*

Tone is almost as important as the point you're trying to make; sad to say, but a lot of people on this board take things at face value and almost never consider a deeper meaning to things being said.

If you don't agree with that, then you may as well stop because you're going to be going in circles.

And that's a pretty interesting point about Ben 10 actually.

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[StaticMania]

I see many people here on TSS more devoted to pointing out tone of voice rather than actual validity of points. It is a debate. My hyperbolic tone of voice shouldn't concern you. The opponent's main concern in the midst of a debate is to find lapses in logic and exploit them. Whether I present them in a different way doesn't matter. If you can't take the truth seriously why bother debating. You seem to be more preoccupied psychoanalyzing tone of voice instead of responding with your own arguments (not specifically you but you get the idea.)

 

And I don't think Sonic is a dog kicking sociopath. I just think he is getting to the point of being just as unlikable as Ben Tennyson. *shudders*

In a "debate"...no matter how serious your tone becomes, you should always be able to hold up your arguments in a way that can actually be taken seriously. It helps your argument stand as valid because it looks like it is being stated in a professional manner, the less professional your arguments seem, the less people are going to take them seriously.

 

The way you go about making the claims in your argument are also a contributing factor.

[Milo]

I see many people here on TSS more devoted to pointing out tone of voice rather than actual validity of points. It is a debate. My hyperbolic tone of voice shouldn't concern you. The opponent's main concern in the midst of a debate is to find lapses in logic and exploit them. Whether I present them in a different way doesn't matter. If you can't take the truth seriously why bother debating. You seem to be more preoccupied psychoanalyzing tone of voice instead of responding with your own arguments (not specifically you but you get the idea.)

 

And I don't think Sonic is a dog kicking sociopath. I just think he is getting to the point of being just as unlikable as Ben Tennyson. *shudders*

 

You do realize that while Omega Kuzu was criticizing the tone of your posts, he was also advising you how to write your posts so people would understand your points better and also said that he understood the points you were making, right?

 

You and your posse are trying way too hard by this point to make yourselves look like you're not in the wrong on any point, to the extent that it makes the lot of you come off as completely unable to listen to reason.

[100Rings]

I've been fairly impassive and polite to all the users. I haven't insulted anyone nor have I started some sort of flame war. What exactly has been done here except exemplifying the flaws of certain characterization from my vantage point. I literally recited SLW's plot minus the one flaw I made I don't see where I went wrong. What irks you so much that you feel attacked? Like I said I haven't insulted anyone nor have I served baseless insults to a game without examples to back me up. What is so wrong with my tone. I'm not even instigating a fight....

 

 

What Posse? I have been on this site for a while now....I have only 2 friends lol and I even conceded on some stuff I had wrong. What exactly is your point? Clarify....I know he/she was agreeing with me and I am glad I have been making valid points but it seems that anyone with a slight edge to their tone or who feels strongly about something is constantly ordered to "use their "inside voice"...

 

If you don't believe it to be the truth, debate me on it using facts. That is the only way you can disprove me in the end.

 

StaticMania, good point. Point taken.

 

And Ben 10 really had potential to be fun...but the constant bickering and the character stagnation is what killed it for me. Sonic is really starting to resemble Ben in many ways...

[PandoloFox]

While going through this topic i got some good insights on how some games fail and how some games did things better but the at the end it all turned to a mind your manners conversation.

First of i have no problem with that people want someone to be more respectful but when that becomes your only point your argument becomes weak, try telling that to your boss at work and see how long you will last. of course this is a public comment section where we discuss sonic so this comparison may sound a bit extreem but it is in my belief that as long as you are not getting personaly insulted the attitude shouldnt matter. if you dont like a superior tone then debate and prove your point.

[100Rings]

While going through this topic i got some good insights on how some games fail and how some games did things better but the at the end it all turned to a mind your manners conversation.

First of i have no problem with that people want someone to be more respectful but when that becomes your only point your argument becomes weak, try telling that to your boss at work and see how long you will last. of course this is a public comment section where we discuss sonic so this comparison may sound a bit extreem but it is in my belief that as long as you are not getting personaly insulted the attitude shouldnt matter. if you dont like a superior tone then debate and prove your point.

That's what I thought....apparently attacking a video games flaws is "rude" as well. If I was acting superior to the users here ok they would have the right to address me.

 

Your "boss" analogy was amusing xD

[StaticMania]

There's not really any type of enjoyability to debate with someone who has any kind of superiority in the tone of their argument. Its really annoying no matter which way you can look at it, you can't just ignore the tone but still consider the argument because if you do that the whole debate just ends up going no where. Its not productive and its not really something to actually consider doing.

 

In a proper debate people should be able to reason with one another on a 50% chance...allowing someone to continue on in their superior tone lowers that chance down dramatically. That basically results in a terrible discussion.

 

Knowing when to tell someone off about being respectful in a discussion is important, mainly because respect is a major part of having said discussion actually be productive and not pointless.

[Milo]

You and your posse are trying way too hard by this point to make yourselves look like you're not in the wrong on any point, to the extent that it makes the lot of you come off as completely unable to listen to reason.

 

I've been fairly impassive and polite to all the users. I haven't insulted anyone nor have I started some sort of flame war. What exactly has been done here except exemplifying the flaws of certain characterization from my vantage point. I literally recited SLW's plot minus the one flaw I made I don't see where I went wrong. What irks you so much that you feel attacked? Like I said I haven't insulted anyone nor have I served baseless insults to a game without examples to back me up. What is so wrong with my tone. I'm not even instigating a fight....

 

 

If you don;t believe it to be the truth, debate me on it using facts. That is the only way you can disprove me in the end.

 

 

While going through this topic i got some good insights on how some games fail and how some games did things better but the at the end it all turned to a mind your manners conversation.

First of i have no problem with that people want someone to be more respectful but when that becomes your only point your argument becomes weak, try telling that to your boss at work and see how long you will last. of course this is a public comment section where we discuss sonic so this comparison may sound a bit extreem but it is in my belief that as long as you are not getting personaly insulted the attitude shouldnt matter. if you dont like a superior tone then debate and prove your point.

 

 

That's what I thought....apparently attacking a video games flaws is "rude" as well. If I was acting superior to the users here ok they would have the right to address me.

 

Your "boss" analogy was amusing xD

 

This condescending jibe in all three of these posts is exactly what I was talking about.

 

Have any of you actually considered that there were points you may have said in your arguments -both the ones concerning the games and concerning the tone and treatment of other people of your posts- that might actually (objectively) wrong?

[100Rings]

Point me to the examples of me being superior to someone. My only goal has been to show my points and display them logically. Not fulfill myself by bullying via the internet.

 

I could have been nicer to Diogones in hindsight but it is irksome for someone to purposefully ignore my points on all fronts for the sake of a cheap potshot.

 

This is exactly what I was talking about.

 

Have any of you actually considered that there were points you may have said in your arguments -both the ones concerning the games and concerning the tone and treatment of other people of your posts- that might actually (objectively) wrong?

haha well I would actually have to say no since apparently no one is willing to point them out to me since we are sitting here debating tone rather than the original subject....

[PandoloFox]

I already stated that its understandable to want people to be respectful but when that is all you can say you are basicaly just whining and honestly nobody likes whiners either. If you wanted to point out 100rings tone than you should have done what omega kuzu did. first debate the actual topic and then comment on the attitude. this way you are actualy having a conversation, you just complaining about tone makes you a hypocrite since your own tone isnt likeable either at this point.

[Milo]

haha well I would actually have to say no since apparently no one is willing to point them out to me since we are sitting here debating tone rather than the original subject....

 

Even though I just did in my previous post? And pointing this out right now as a result is me having to do it again?

 

That I had to do it twice and you still claim no wrongdoing convinces me you're just not going to see it (or at least claim to not see it, anyway). Whatever. I'm not really interested in continuing this discussion any further.