Shouldn't we cut Dimps some slack?

[Jeffhog]

This took me about two hours to write, and now I have no patience left to deal with any oncoming idiots that'll do nothing but bash anyone without taking into account anything I have written. Don't toy with me, and read everything from top to bottom. Thank you.

You know what... after thinking it over, I think I might forgive Dimps for SG3DS. Well, to an extent, but still.

Now, some of you might be thinking "SG3DS ruined forever, another ****** Sonic game by Dimps" or "Dimps sucks ***", or better yet "VizardJeffhog, WUT THE **** R U SAIYAN'!?"

All I ask of you is that you take a minute, hear me out, read all of what I have to say (and don't dismiss it as bull because it's a wall of text) and if you don't agree with me at all, please... please keep it civil. Otherwise, each post will be reported for deletion. And if you're going to whine about Classic Homing Attack, or the physics of this game or any other Sonic title, or the choice of stages including the Rivals and the like, take it elsewhere.

So obviously the 3DS version of Sonic Generations isn't looking all too great compared to its home console/PC counterpart, and even there to most of you, that would be the understatement of the century. Sonic Generations looks beautiful, looks great, filled up to brim with nostalgic content - from stage gimmicks straight to music and extras - yet the 3DS, I admit, does look like a cash-in for Nintendo fans. There could've been a Wii-exclusive version, but alas, there is not, and we shouldn't force SEGA/Sonic Team or Dimps to do so, especially now.

So, Nintendo users will have to settle for the 3DS version, and there exists a few that play video games on their 3DS and uses no PCs* or an Xbox360/PS3.

*Not saying they're impoverished. Not all computers can handle Steam.

With that said, more could've been done for the 3DS version, that way those who would want Sonic Generations on the go would be as satisfied as they would've been if they played on the other version. I'm planning on procuring a 3DS for myself soon, and Generations was looking to be my first game on Nintendo's newest handheld.

But numerous complaints have risen. Level choice might not have been under Dimps' jurisdiction - for all we know, it could've been anyone from SonicTeam, but no finger pointing at any specific names - so let's keep that aside.

What I'm mainly concentrating on here is the level design. The supposed copy-pasting of the Genesis stages for Classic Sonic and the "boost to win" straightforward gameplay for Modern Sonic, as some would say for the latter.

"They didn't put any effort into making the game! It fails! It stinks! It sucks! Waste of cash! Go to hell, Dimps!"

Sure. Compared to the three years SEGA/SonicTeam took right after Unleashed was released for Generations on the PC and home consoles, and with Dimps who were hired to co-develop the 3DS version only a few short months before E3, but of course, it looks like there's no effort.

/sarcasm

Obviously, what Dimps lack the most out of all of the Generations development was the most important attribute into making a game: time. They weren't even given a full year to make a game due for release in November. They might not have had a big enough budget or enough resources to work with for that matter either.

So, like I said, the problem isn't necessarily the choice of levels - it might not have been their decision after all - but the level design. Physics and such can easily be tweaked. The biggest gripe with the fans now is stage design: the practically 1:1 recreations of the Genesis stages, the highway in the sky styled gameplay, and other issues regarding the levels.

They could've made unique stages for Classic Sonic, or give a much better gameplay perspective for Modern Sonic rather than a one way floating road with little platforming. But they couldn't. They lack time and they're working with an eerily looming deadline to make it for the 2011 holidays.

Primarily, the game's judgement, at least reasonable judgement, is mainly focused on the only two stages we have seen concrete footage of so far. All we saw save Big Arm were Green Hill and Mushroom Hill. It is safe to assume that Casino Night will be 100% like its Sonic 2 version for Classic Sonic at this rate.

In other words, one major complaint is the fact that the Classic stages are 1:1 recreations of their Genesis/Mega Drive counterparts.

But, to save time in order to work on other parts of the game too, don't you think that Dimps most likely felt forced to do so?

If they took their time to build on the game, we wouldn't be seeing a 20th anniversary release; they have to obey the deadline set for them by SEGA unless otherwise stated. So, they have to rush the game to make it on time. To save time, they had to remake the Genesis levels and copy-paste nearly each and every pixel to do so, so that way they can focus more on the rest of the game as a whole.

Secondly, Modern Sonic. Yes, yes, boo all you want. Believe me, if Dimps could make his stages any better now, they could. Again, only if they had enough time on their hands. A 3D highway in the sky for Generations with little else to add to it, it's bland, I get it. I agree with you all on that one. But who's to say the game itself wouldn't be fun? I wouldn't judge it until I've had a go for it myself, but alas, I see no 3DS demo in Canadaland. Though if it's possible through the Nintendo Channel on the Wii...

On that note, whether you like it or not, the Sonic Rush formula works. When Sonic took a turn for the worst on the consoles, Sonic 2006 mainly, Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure were there. Don't fix what ain't broke, idjit! Two critically acclaimed titles, with the latter having tons of replayability, are suddenly dismissed as crap now? We saw "boost to win" for two of the first stages for Modern Sonic, yes. But if every other Sonic game is of any indication, introductory levels ARE MEANT TO BE EASY AND SIMPLE. They allow you to get used to the basics, then obviously difficulty will rise as the levels go on, and it will only get harder, so you won't BOOST TO WIN at every given stage.

And that's another thing: all this negative judgement from fan community articles, biased fan rage, trollery, pessimism, and pictures - which could tell a thousand words - is essentially based off what we haven't seen and/or experienced yet.

Tell me, have the majority of you even touched the 3DS version yet?

Have any of you actually seen concrete gameplay footage of Emerald Coast, Radical Highway, the 2 or 3 unnamed stages, Metal Sonic, Shadow?

I didn't think so.

It's one thing for someone to report how the game looks and listing the current problems with physics or gameplay, but when someone tries to bring everyone's hopes down, whether it's on purpose or not, by basically hating an unreleased game, not a final version, based off judgement from years past - and without taking into account the time restraint Dimps has to deal with - that's another.

As stated, we only saw Dimps' take on Green Hill and Mushroom Hill, alongside Big Arm. We've yet to see how Casino Night, Emerald Coast, Radical Highway and the other 2 or 3 unrevealed stages play out. This problem is practically correlated with the Xbox360/PS3/PC version of Generations - while we've been given plenty of eye candy on this version what with a trailer every two weeks for example, we haven't been shown all that much of the 3DS.

Remember that we haven't even seen half of what the 3DS version has to offer, and that all we have been shown are two stages and a boss on public demos while the game is still being worked on, so sit your rear down, shut up, and wait for more.

Finally, we mustn't forget that Dimps and SonicTeam are dealing with new hardware. What, you expect the first try to be perfect?

Basically, Dimps isn't only dealing with time issues: they're also trying to work a brand new game on a brand new console that was just released commercially in February/March this year. The 3DS is basically uncharted territory and they're only given 5 or 6 months to make a game on it, everything to be done from scratch. Obviously not going to be 100% pretty on the first shot.

In other words, think of it as testing the temperature before jumping into the pool: Dimps will most likely grow more accustomed over the years with Sonic on the 3DS, and will obviously get better with it, just as a human being would be more used to how hot or cold the water might be before dipping inside. Next time, hopefully, with more time on their hands, more resources and becoming used to making games on the Nintendo 3DS, who knows? We might see Sonic being played just as he is now with full backgrounds, no highway-in-the-sky design and so on, like in Unleashed/Colours/Generations, in a few short years from now.

Before some of you bring up the Sonic Rivals series, Dimps didn't develop those. A Canadian development company named "Backbone Entertainment" did, and they've worked on the PSP before handling Sonic on the Sony portable.

In conclusion, Sonic's had it plenty worse in the past. Heck, remember his first jump into the Xbox360 (released in 2005) and PS3 (released in 2006) with Sonic Next-Gen (hinted to have begun in 2005 and rushed to release for the holidays of 2006)?

Just about the same story. And we've forgiven SEGA for that, haven't we? Then why can't we forgive Dimps? Provide constructive criticism without bashing them? Taking into account that some people might actually like the 3DS version, why can't we try not to kill the good that people see in this game with the typical "HOW DARE YOU LIKE WHAT I DON'T" bull?

If anything, Dimps is already learning their lesson with Sonic 4: Episode 1, and will be applying what it was corrected on for Sonic 4: Episode 2. With Dimps and SonicTeam taking into account what was said during that community panel at Sega of America earlier on, and with a bigger budget, working on consoles they should be used to work on and obviously more development time, should be a much better title than once predicted, and hopefully after Generations and CD, we'll hear word on it quickly.

With that said, I expect a lot better coming from Dimps in the future. Coming from a company that made excellent Sonic handhelds in the past, you oughta be too.

Would a delay help? Maybe so. But it's Sonic Generations we're talking about. It wouldn't be a 20th anniversary if it weren't in 2011.

Dimps? I forgive you. You put a lot of effort with what little you had, and I commend you for it.

Screw you haters, I'm getting the 3DS version as soon as I can.

Edited October 19, 2011 by VizardJeffhog

[Chooch]

I like Dimps, I really do. I really like a good amount of their games.. But if I think they fucked up I think they fucked up.

Sonic Generations looks okay on 3DS but yeah.. I'm not really excited for it. The level choices and design of them don't wow me.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Chooch

[Swiss]

They did fuck up. On several occasions.

Doesn't mean they can't redeem themselves though, we've seen that they can do it from some of their past titles.

[Badnik Mechanic]

The problem (one of their many problems) is that they're just not thinking when it comes to level design.

They've copied the classic stages exactly without actually thinking why. For instance one stage has a checkpoint right by the end marker... urm... why is it there exactly? Oh... Because in the original game it wasn't the end of the stage, there was a boss fight. Hence the need for a checkpoint right by the boss.

[Tornado]

How many times do they need to be cut slack? What's the baseline for comparison here?

[Ultimate Waffle]

*reads title*

Nope.avi

EDIT: Read what you had to say. Insulting people who had creative critisism for the 3DS version just made me have a "oh, it's THIS kinda guy" moments.

"Time" isn't an issue here, sure we can forgive them for copy-pasting the level design for classic, but Modern's level design is simply unacceptable. It isnt even Rush style, it's simply running over a flat strip of land over a large bottomless pit.

Time stopped them from putting platforms on those barren paths? Sonic Team probably even helped out with some assets (graphics, music), so lazy level design has no exuse. All I have been seeing from Dimps in the past few years are lazy, half-assed, cash-in games.

And just so you know, I experienced both versions of Generations at NYCC.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Username is already taken

[Koopalmier]

The only valid issue with Dimps seems to be Sonic 4 - which was supervised by Sonic Team, meaning it's not Dimp's fault for making Rush physics but Sonic Team's for not pointing out it needs to be like the classics'.

UnWiished was enjoyable, just not as much as the HD version.

The real issue with Generations 3DS seems to be the linearity of the Modern levels. Dimps is trying to recreate Unleashed-like levels on a 2D plane, under a year of development time.

Even then, it still looks fun to me, just not as fun as it could've been with more obstacles.

[Ferno]

In conclusion, Sonic's had it plenty worse in the past. Heck, remember his first jump into the Xbox360 (released in 2005) and PS3 (released in 2006) with Sonic Next-Gen (hinted to have begun in 2005 and rushed to release for the holidays of 2006)?

Just about the same story. And we've forgiven SEGA for that, haven't we? Then why can't we forgive Dimps?

As far as I can tell, there's alot of people who still haven't forgiven Sonic Team for that, and they probably never will, even if the games made after were vastly better. Just saying.

[Carbo]

*reads title*

Nope.avi

Don't spam like this. It makes you look like a douche.

[Ultimate Waffle]

Don't spam like this. It makes you look like a douche.

Oh, okay. Except I wasn't even planning on leaving it like that.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I don't like current Dimps as much as current Sonic Team, but I don't mind them too much. Generations DS looks a little bland, but still very fun to me. I just hope that they get to make handheld titles that aren't just alternate versions of existing Sonic Team titles again, sometime in the near future. A third Rush on 3DS might be cool.

[Cola]

Yes we should. Though I would've appreciated a straight port of the console version more, the fact that they decided to put in the effort and make their own stages is awesome. Although they didn't exactly come out that good, you can tell they'be been putting in some effort.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go scrape together enough money for the 3DS version.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Colasaurus Rex

[Phos]

I'm not going to read all that when the title gives the impression that it's another tirade about not giving something a chance or the like. No, playing just by muscle memory isn't fun and it's Dimps who invented it.

[Tornado]

Just noticed something. You say this:

Tell me, have the majority of you even touched the 3DS version yet?

Have any of you actually seen concrete gameplay footage of Emerald Coast, Radical Highway, the 2 or 3 unnamed stages, Metal Sonic, Shadow?

Then you turn around and say this:

In conclusion, Sonic's had it plenty worse in the past. Heck, remember his first jump into the Xbox360 (released in 2005) and PS3 (released in 2006) with Sonic Next-Gen (hinted to have begun in 2005 and rushed to release for the holidays of 2006)?

Just about the same story. And we've forgiven SEGA for that, haven't we?

Then this:

If anything, Dimps is already learning their lesson with Sonic 4: Episode 1, and will be applying what it was corrected on for Sonic 4: Episode 2. With Dimps and SonicTeam taking into account what was said during that community panel at Sega of America earlier on, and with a bigger budget, working on consoles they should be used to work on and obviously more development time, should be a much better title than once predicted, and hopefully after Generations and CD, we'll hear word on it quickly.

With that said, I expect a lot better coming from Dimps in the future. Coming from a company that made excellent Sonic handhelds in the past, you oughta be too.

Which basically means rather than "Cut Dimps some slack" your actual argument is "LEAVE DIMPS ALONE WAAAAHHHH."

[Jeffhog]

They did fuck up. On several occasions.

Doesn't mean they can't redeem themselves though, we've seen that they can do it from some of their past titles.

Edited October 19, 2011 by VizardJeffhog

[Old dead account]

As soon as they make another game like this

I'm not one to treat Dimps like the devil or anything, but the design for the 3DS version for modern Sonic is just laziness. I thought that while Rush was fun the first time, the appeal just doesn't last for too long but it's still a hell of a lot better than these. I thought Colors DS was great so why couldn't the modern levels be designed more like those (Colors DS was made by Dimps right?) Especially since they the first 3 classic levels are just an effortless cuntpaste of the originals, leaving all the more time to think of good design for modern's. I'm left with the impression that for the 2 final levels, which are from Rush or so rumors say, they're going to copy/pasta the exact same design from them and put them into modern Sonic's.

I'm still crossing my fingers for them to impress me with S4E2 but right now they aren't convincing me.

[Jeffhog]

I thought Colors DS was great so why couldn't the modern levels be designed more like those. (Colors DS was made by Dimps right?)

It was made by Dimps.

I never played that version though, but I played the demo. It seemed alright.

[Blazey Firekitty]

That would be. xD Wouldn't be bad.

Yeah.

Dimps seemed to get a lot of their original popularity from doing the opposite of what Sonic Team was doing...providing fast, simplistic experiences instead of the more exploration and platforming focused, yet critically maligned titles like Shadow and 06. Such speedy gameplay seems to have gone out of style to an extent as time has gone on, so perhaps the main thing Dimps needs to learn is that it's okay to slow down sometimes to add greater complexity. On the other hand, it would probably help if they were given more projects that weren't meant to be handheld versions of existing titles.

[Nitwit_Speed]

Dimps is doing a respectable job. Sure, it's not up to stand with it's history- the Advanced titles all getting their share of love and the Rush titles are certainly popular enough. Sonic Unwiished was a good watered-down run of Unleashed, and i suppose if you're into Boost stages then it's perfectly fine (although Unleashed HD is apparently incredible, i'm just saying Unwiished is perfectly fine if nothing more). The real first sign of real "RUINED FOREVER" was Sonic 4, although it was also their first shot at a "do-over" in that Episode 2 could end up running on the Generations Classic engine for all we know. Sonic Colors was supposedly a good Rush game from what i can gather, so all they're really in is a "good enough" zone right now for those of us who have managed to force Sonic 4 into the very outer reaches of our memories. Sonic Generations 3DS is kinda like Unwiished in that it's not going to be the kind of game where we set up a tent in front of the gamestore a week in advance, like... well, like Sonic Generations, but it's perfectly fine. We're only getting 3 copy-paste levels anyhow, and it's not like they'd be perfect anyway- Mushroom Hill Zone would be the last of the simplistic beginner zones anyhow and copy-pasting may have actually averted ending up with classic straight lines. No one can seem to create a substantial yet easy stage these days, as we saw from the HD versions of Green Hill and Chemical Plant's Modern iterations, so we may have made out like a bandit.

I'm sticking with Sonic 4 having been a conspiracy to make us want true Classic gameplay more than ever after having been promised it and then having it stolen anyhow.

[JezMM]

I dunno, people have good points. The level design IS kind of bland in the 3DS version. Considering with most games, art is the LAST thing that is applied to a stage after rigorous testing, I highly doubt the fact that they had to create assets for the stages would have truly intervened with the level design. Yes half of it is SEGA's fault for the tight deadline, but half of it is Dimps' fault.

We shall see how it goes. I'm looking forward to the 3DS version just as much as the HD one mind you.

Also I don't see what was wrong with Sonic 4. It wasn't a true sequel to the classic level design process but they were still good level designs. Had it been called "Sonic DL" or whatever everyone would have been fine.

[Blue Blood]

Remember a few years ago when Sonic Team kept pulling out shit? We never cut them any slack. Until Dimps start making good Sonic games I'm not gonna give them any slack either.

[Strickerx5]

I still respect Dimps. They are the ones who brought out some great sonic titles while sonic team themselves weren't doing so hot. The fact is, even some of the most recent Dimps games weren't bad at all. They just showed some flaws that only people who have repeatedly studied the series would notice. I myself played through Sonic 4 and didn't find a single issue with it besides it having no original level ideas. I thought it was a great sonic game, in till I started going around some forums and saw some of the issues people have found about it.

Could the modern stages in the 3DS version use some work, yes. Its very notable that the levels shown so far support the ever popular "boost to win" theory *takes a shower after saying that*. But this doesn't change the fact that a lot of people who've played it have enjoyed it. This, at the end of the day, is a trait that justifies every games purpose. Its how enjoyable the game is that truly matters.

[Milo]

What really annoys me about Dimps is that they are not doing what Sonic Team is doing with their games - constantly making major signifigant improvements for each new Sonic game.

Sonic Team has been constantly improving the quality of their games since Sonic 06. After Sonic 06, Sonic Team did a major overhaul on how they currently develop Sonic games. This resulted in the current gameplay style that apparently a good amount of people like, even though it still had problems in controls and level design. After Unleashed, the controls have improved and are now tighter, have less "boost hallways" in level design for a good amount of stages, and now Sonic Team doesn't shoehorn gameplay gimmicks that aren't related to Sonic gameplay. After Sonic 4, classic Sonic's physics in Sonic Generations. Enough said. Is it 100% momentum-based? No. Does it look like Sega/Sonic Team actually listened and at least signifigantly improve it? Damn straght.

Compared to Dimps, who apparently takes the same Rush engine, slaps a new coat of paint (new zones) on it, change the layout of their "boost to win" level design, and presented it as a new Sonic game. IMO that's what Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic 4, and Colors DS look like, and that's what Generations 3DS is shaping up to look like too. Except that for this time, they are doing this TWICE for Generations, with different methods for classic Sonic:

- Copypaste Sonic 4 physics (apparently that's what I've heard from reviewers)

- Copypaste entire level design layouts of the original classic stages and take away the miniboss fights for those stages being remade in Generations

- Copypaste Sonic 4 level design for classic Sonic for the new acts made for classic Sonic

- Disabled the Homing Attack for classic Sonic....only to have it used as a upgrade.

Then after they release their new Sonic Rush build, they watch the cash roll in, because apparently lots of reviewers have nostalgia bias for 2D Sonic games. And thus they don't have to put in much effort when making Sonic games.

I'm sorry if I'm been sounding pessimistic/negative lately. I've been trying to get a lot of stuff done lately.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Zinos

[pppp]

What really annoys me about Dimps is that they are not doing what Sonic Team is doing with their games - constantly making major signifigant improvements for each new Sonic game.

Sonic Team has been constantly improving the quality of their games since Sonic 06. After Sonic 06, Sonic Team did a major overhaul on how they currently develop Sonic games. This resulted in the current gameplay style that apparently a good amount of people like, even though it still had problems in controls and level design. After Unleashed, the controls have improved and are now tighter, have less "boost hallways" in level design for a good amount of stages, and now Sonic Team doesn't shoehorn gameplay gimmicks that aren't related to Sonic gameplay. After Sonic 4, classic Sonic's physics in Sonic Generations. Enough said. Is it 100% momentum-based? No. Does it look like Sega/Sonic Team actually listened and at least signifigantly improve it? Damn straght.

Compared to Dimps, who apparently takes the same Rush engine, slaps a new coat of paint (new zones) on it, change the layout of their "boost to win" level design, and presented it as a new Sonic game. IMO that's what Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic 4, and Colors DS look like, and that's what Generations 3DS is shaping up to look like too. Except that for this time, they are doing this TWICE for Generations, with different methods for classic Sonic:

- Copypaste Sonic 4 physics (apparently that's what I've heard from reviewers)

- Copypaste entire level design layouts of the original classic stages and take away the miniboss fights for those stages being remade in Generations

- Copypaste Sonic 4 level design for classic Sonic for the new acts made for classic Sonic

- Disabled the Homing Attack for classic Sonic....only to have it used as a upgrade.

Then after they release their new Sonic Rush build, they watch the cash roll in, because apparently lots of reviewers have nostalgia bias for 2D Sonic games. And thus they don't have to put in much effort when making Sonic games.

I'm sorry if I'm been sounding pessimistic/negative lately. I've been trying to get a lot of stuff done lately.

This.

[Remy]

Please refrain from just posting massive quotes with "this" or I agree after, cheers. Try to actually write a post or make a point. Someone has already been warned in this topic for something similar, soon we start dishing punishment.

As for DIMPS can you really say their games are bad? Mediocre yes, dull perhaps, maybe even average, but I can't exactly call any bad.... except for maybe S4. The DS stuff is pretty consistent, I think and although it's "boost corridor" gameplay (when did this term arise? lol) The games aren't bad by any stretch.