Sonic doesn't need a story?

[batson]

The moment they decided you should control a character, with personal goals, in an identifiable environment, fighting against other characters, there was a story.

Strictly speaking, a game does not need a story. It is a set of rules concerning a set of objects (real or virtual). Solitaire doesn't have a story. It has rules for how cards can be placed, how they are dealt, and how you win and lose. But there's no context, no abstraction, no justification for those actions besides keeping the player entertained.

Minesweeper, as simple as it is, does have a story. There are mines, sweep for them. There's nothing more to it besides that and its implications (such as, you lost because you set off a mine and have become extra-chunky salsa), but it is not nothing.

When you get all the way up to something like Sonic, the question becomes almost nonsense. Does Sonic need a story? Simply by identifying Sonic, you have a character, and if you have a character, you have a story.

Of course, that isn't what people mean. The real question is, what kind of story should Sonic have? And that's a much more complex and personal question, one that does not have a simple objective answer.

Well said. The question isn't "does Sonic need a story?" because if you consider "story" in the broadest meaning, then the answer can probably only be "yes". A better question would perhapes be "does Sonic need a story anymore complex than that found in the series earliest games?". And i think the sheer fact that those early games are as fun as they are means that the answer is "no". But just like others have said already, just because the series doesn't need a more complex story or cutscenes or voice-acting doesn't mean it shouldn't have them. Im fact, i think its obvious that the vast majority of us hardcore fans does want those things and feel that if done right they can make a good game even better. And the people who feel that a story of any complexity pretty much by definition actively hurts a Sonic game probably mostly belong to the crowd of more casual fans who hasnt really followed the series that closely in recent years and believes that Sonic can only be great if he is as close as possible to the version they remember from their childhood.

[Dr. Mechano]

Eh? Sonic's always had a story. "The evil Dr. Eggman is trying to take over the world, so our hero Sonic stops him." While these early plots weren't complex by any stretch of the imagination, they qualify as stories, so you can't very well say the old Sonic games had literally no plot.

The question isn't whether or not he should have a story at all, but rather a question of how that story should be portrayed.

Light or dark? Straightforward or overly complex? Focused on Sonic or on a number of other characters?

I'm for a blend of the two extremes, with a slight curve toward simple and lighthearted. I like the brighter, happier, more upbeat side of Sonic the Hedgehog's world- And while I enjoy cutscenes and character interaction as much as the next guy, I'm wary of games that get too dark- in my opinion forcibly so- with their thematic direction.

Complexity doesn't necessitate a grim atmosphere; A lighthearted story can be complex and character-driven as long as it's done right, and that's the ideal sort of story I'd like to see for Sonic. Something well-written and rich with great characterization and dialog, yet at the same time manages to preserve that lighthearted peppy tone that I love the series for. Really, Colors was pretty close to my ideal plot style, so I hope they continue in that direction.

[NintendoSoul]

Sonic has always had a story, bare-bones as it was, so saying it never had one to begin with is a lie.

[Anarnee]

....

Well, if people don't like the story then technically they don't need to follow the story...

[Silver*]

The person who wrote the song REALLY doesn't want Shadow lol

Anyway; the earlier Sonic games were very popular (the 2-d ones) and the characters were kinda added for no reason at all or the game didn't have a story. To be short, a game doesn't need to have a story to be a good game.

[edge.]

Without stories in any video game, let alone Sonic, the games would be just...nothing. Gameplay and graphics are nice and all, but they are just useless without any story to implement them IMO.

[Mangoaxe5]

I think it's sad that the video has more likes then dislikes.

[Dejablue]

This is kind of Fail. Every Sonic game has had a story. In fact some of the bad ones didn't have a story. Or at least the story was so bad I don't care to remember it. Sonic 1,2,3&Knuckles have a story. So this entire idea that Sonic doesn't need a story is retarded. The problem is how it is told.

Also lol every time I hear RCS's voice I DO think about Pizza Hut and like some random guy who is going to announce What's Next in the totally awesum saturday morning cartoon line up. WTF mate. He does a good job at making Sonic sound like a douche. Which is what Sega was going for.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Dejablue

[Solid SOAP]

I think it's about time Sonic stories become a bit more family friendly and accessible to all. Sonic games can have good stories when they really, really try, as seen in Adventure 2, but right now I think it'd be in SEGA's best interest to keep the lighthearted stories they've been going for ever since Colors. Not to compare Sonic to Mario, but the one thing they do have in common that's undeniable is that they're both mascots. As a mascot, especially a video game one that's supposed to be loved by families and people of all ages, I think it's important for the franchise to maintain an image that isn't complex and riddled with eyebrow raising storylines. Putting Sonic in situations like "Put an end to Dr. Eggman's evil theme park!" and "Travel through time with Sonic's past self", two obviously fantastical scenarios, I feel fit the franchise more and are set to give it a better image than the more complex plots seen in the Adventure games and Sonic '06.

tl;dr Sonic games should have storylines with cutscenes, but instead of trying to immerse the audience in an intricate plot, they should more try to keep them entertained with character interaction and dialogue.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Solid SOAP

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think constantly reading Shakespear's plays and rewatching shows like Avatar the Last Airbender, Disney movies, and other cartoons tend to put me in a very different light. When people talk about family friendly, there's a certain degree even within family friendly plots that can actually handle heavy elements.

It's quite interesting for a show like Avatar the Last Airbender to deal with subjects such as war, the loss of a family, genocide, and censorship and still be a kids show. And when you watch old Disney shows, it kinda makes you wonder what is considered family friendly. We have things that have a number of heavy elements in them and yet the family as a whole enjoys them. Lion King is a very big example, and I don't think I need to talk about it considering most of us have seen it.

It's for this very reason that I often get sick of hearing people say that Sonic either needs to be more lighthearted to be family friendly, or more serious so he can be more action oriented, and I can't help but think that the amount of fiction I've exposed myself to regarding these very elements makes me feel that people are completely missing the point on the very material they're talking about. Star Wars clone wars is very action oriented, yet family friendly despite being much darker than the other line-ups on Cartoon Network. Ben 10 (pre-Alien Force) was action oriented, and yet it's star character was incredibly juvenile as you would expect, and the whole show was fairly lighthearted.

You can even stretch it to video game examples. Ratchet and Clank is so damn juvenile that it's more lighthearted than Sonic the Hedgehog is, and yet your character is 5 times more destructive than the entire US Armed forces. Then there's the Legend of Zelda franchise which is even more all over the place with it's tones than Sonic is, with more lighter and family oriented games like Windmaker (I'll be honest I really haven't played the game to know it's tone), and yet it goes far far to the end of the dark and heavy spectrum with Majora's Mask.

If anything, the whole purpose in immersing the audience in a plot is to entertain them while having them understand the world, and it's not a matter of complexity. I think that when it comes to Sonic, we have such a black and white look at things when it comes to plots, as opposed to the grey look that all other plots in other franchise who can carry the same or even more extreme tone (serious or juvenile) than Sonic does, and I really think we should look at it through presentation than merely the idea of it. Sonic's shown that he can work in a number of spectrums, but I don't think it's a matter of being in a specific spectrum for the audience for him to be great.

Edited October 30, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I think constantly reading Shakespear's plays and rewatching shows like Avatar the Last Airbender, Disney movies, and other cartoons tend to put me in a very different light. When people talk about family friendly, there's a certain degree even within family friendly plots that can actually handle heavy elements.

It's quite interesting for a show like Avatar the Last Airbender to deal with subjects such as war, the loss of a family, genocide, and censorship and still be a kids show. And when you watch old Disney shows, it kinda makes you wonder what is considered family friendly. We have things that have a number of heavy elements in them and yet the family as a whole enjoys them. Lion King is a very big example, and I don't think I need to talk about it considering most of us have seen it.

It's for this very reason that I often get sick of hearing people say that Sonic either needs to be more lighthearted to be family friendly, or more serious so he can be more action oriented, and I can't help but think that the amount of fiction I've exposed myself to regarding these very elements makes me feel that people are completely missing the point on the very material they're talking about. Star Wars clone wars is very action oriented, yet family friendly despite being much darker than the other line-ups on Cartoon Network. Ben 10 (pre-Alien Force) was action oriented, and yet it's star character was incredibly juvenile as you would expect, and the whole show was fairly lighthearted.

You can even stretch it to video game examples. Ratchet and Clank is so damn juvenile that it's more lighthearted than Sonic the Hedgehog is, and yet your character is 5 times more destructive than the entire US Armed forces. Then there's the Legend of Zelda franchise which is even more all over the place with it's tones than Sonic is, with more lighter and family oriented games like Windmaker (I'll be honest I really haven't played the game to know it's tone), and yet it goes far far to the end of the dark and heavy spectrum with Majora's Mask.

If anything, the whole purpose in immersing the audience in a plot is to entertain them while having them understand the world, and it's not a matter of complexity. I think that when it comes to Sonic, we have such a black and white look at things when it comes to plots, as opposed to the grey look that all other plots in other franchise who can carry the same or even more extreme tone (serious or juvenile) than Sonic does, and I really think we should look at it through presentation than merely the idea of it. Sonic's shown that he can work in a number of spectrums, but I don't think it's a matter of being in a specific spectrum for the audience for him to be great.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Enigma2

[batson]

The only way I'm going to ever enjoy Sonic Stories properly again without having to constantly revise it in my head to make it bearable is if Sonic Team stops worrying about whether it sounds too dark/edgy or too light/humorous and just let the story flow on its own.

[ArtFenix]

Well said. I always get the feeling from Sonic Adventure 1 that with that game, being the first truly story-heavy game in the series, Sonic Team didn't consider how "dark" or "lighthearted" the tone of the story should be. It just felt perfectly "natural" and in tune with previous games, much like the Sonic OVA actually.

[HUNTER297]

All right I will just say one thing. If Sonic is only about gameplay and doesnt need a story then lets have a franchaise where Blue ball jumps on white blocks and on Red Balls that can damage you and need to get to Green Ball to finish level. No story? But hey gameplay at its best!/irony

When SEGA created Sonic they already had story. Player gone trough Angel island in S3&K and got punched by Knuckles. It occured! Its story! Sonic destroyed first Motobug in Green Hill. Again it occured. This song is just pure nonsense.

[Dejablue]

I remember when Extra Credits had a discussion about video game stories. (All their videos are gone now because they left Escapist) But they brought up some interesting points about how writing for a video game is different from writing for a book or a movie. Especially if the writer hired is new to having to work a story around gameplay. And if you're not Metal Gear Solid, you can't devote 30 minutes of game time to a cutscene. Tis a delicate balance of many different elements.

I think Sonic Adventure had the perfect tone. Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Adventure 2 both vie for second place. They feel natural and the mood isn't forced. The Shadow game felt forced from the get go. I don't even know how I feel about 06's tone.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Dejablue

[Blazey Firekitty]

All right I will just say one thing. If Sonic is only about gameplay and doesnt need a story then lets have a franchaise where Blue ball jumps on white blocks and on Red Balls that can damage you and need to get to Green Ball to finish level. No story? But hey gameplay at its best!/irony

I naturally wouldn't want the franchise to go in this direction permanently, but I'd probably buy a game about Blue Ball fighting the evil Dr. Cube just for the sheer absurdity of it. XD

[Speed 速]

One of the major distinctions Sonic had in the Dreamcast era (and even in the Genesis games if you read the story) from Mario was the decent storyline. The grade will always be based on the gameplay but flushing out the story of Sonic 3 & Knuckles in 3D HD graphics would make for a pretty awesome game.

[Blazey Firekitty]

One of the major distinctions Sonic had in the Dreamcast era (and even in the Genesis games if you read the story) from Mario was the decent storyline. The grade will always be based on the gameplay but flushing out the story of Sonic 3 & Knuckles in 3D HD graphics would make for a pretty awesome game.

That could indeed be a fun game, there seemed to be a lot of potential for a great story with that big island and all the little reactions.

I noticed that Alex Day seems to make another mistake with "Amy Rose was an abomination." She's been around since Sonic CD, she is not a modern only character. It's kind of like how he seems to think Flickies debuted in Sonic 3D. I wish that Amy had been given a playable role in the main series back then so this kind of mistake wouldn't be made as often.

Edit: Actually, he mentions the Chaotix before that, so maybe he's just opposed to any character who didn't show up on the Mega Drive.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Blazey Psychounicorn

[Solid SOAP]

I think constantly reading Shakespear's plays and rewatching shows like Avatar the Last Airbender, Disney movies, and other cartoons tend to put me in a very different light. When people talk about family friendly, there's a certain degree even within family friendly plots that can actually handle heavy elements.

It's quite interesting for a show like Avatar the Last Airbender to deal with subjects such as war, the loss of a family, genocide, and censorship and still be a kids show. And when you watch old Disney shows, it kinda makes you wonder what is considered family friendly. We have things that have a number of heavy elements in them and yet the family as a whole enjoys them. Lion King is a very big example, and I don't think I need to talk about it considering most of us have seen it.

While good examples, neither of those are video games. Lion King is one of my favorite movies of all times, and manages to evoke emotions that very few family films have ever had me emote. However, again, they're not video games. Good plots in video games can be done, and it still is possible to be done with "family" games, but Sonic Team have tried and tried again and it just doesn't seem to be working for them. Sometime in the future I feel that they could give it another whirl, but as Sonic is now, I feel that it makes the most sense to keep the plots as simple and fun as possible, if Sonic is to be looked at as an icon and video game mascot.

Banjo-Kazooie would be a good example of the direction I'd like the series to go through. No, I don't think Sonic should be full of innuendos and toilet humor, as that isn't the franchise's style, but every Banjo games has been relatively light on plot, but the way the characters interact with one another, as well as dialogue, is very important to the series' charm. I'd like to see the direction the series is beginning to take with Colors and Generations, and bring it to the next level. Sonic is a classic icon whose been around for 20 years, it'd be nice to see some more self-referential humor and light-hearted jokes in cutscenes for now. Stuff that'll make die-hard fans laugh and get fans of the old games interested in progressing the game further as to see some more nods towards their childhood.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

While good examples, neither of those are video games.

What the fuck kind of water is that suppose to hold?

Not only is that not even the point of the topic, it's completely irrelevant to boot and makes you look like you're trying to dodge the message. I can show you a number of video games to prove the same point, but it doesn't make a damn difference whether it's a video game or a movie, play, or a cartoon as far as having a story goes, and it's rather pathetic for you to use that as a tool against non-video game examples, dude. That goes especially when you realize I actually had video game examples in the other half of that post.

Good plots in video games can be done, and it still is possible to be done with "family" games, but Sonic Team have tried and tried again and it just doesn't seem to be working for them.

That's part of the whole bloody reason they hired new writers to begin with after making Unleashed dude, isn't that enough for them to try again, especially when these writers have quite a background on making some very decent stories already?

Sometime in the future I feel that they could give it another whirl, but as Sonic is now, I feel that it makes the most sense to keep the plots as simple and fun as possible, if Sonic is to be looked at as an icon and video game mascot.

People said that same thing back when ShTH and Sonic 06 gave us hell. It's been 5 going on 6 years since then, and they've wised up to the screwy mistakes they've made, up to the point that they've hired new writers, deliver a deal of fan service, and restructured the series since then. Unleashed cleaned up half that mess (while leaving the other half intact), Colors has cleaned up a lot more, and now Generations seems to be finishing this up and yet there are still those who say "Maybe in the future" to the point that I wonder when "in the future" they would even bother to think they should give it another shot or if they're saying that just to stall things.

Banjo-Kazooie would be a good example of the direction I'd like the series to go through. No, I don't think Sonic should be full of innuendos and toilet humor, as that isn't the franchise's style, but every Banjo games has been relatively light on plot, but the way the characters interact with one another, as well as dialogue, is very important to the series' charm. I'd like to see the direction the series is beginning to take with Colors and Generations, and bring it to the next level. Sonic is a classic icon whose been around for 20 years, it'd be nice to see some more self-referential humor and light-hearted jokes in cutscenes for now. Stuff that'll make die-hard fans laugh and get fans of the old games interested in progressing the game further as to see some more nods towards their childhood.

My examples are Ratchet and Clank, Sly Cooper, and Megaman since non-video games aren't relevant examples to you.

Each has their brand of humor and their brand of seriousness. While Megaman sheds off a great deal of it's humor as it progresses, Ratchet and Sly keep theirs all the way through their series. And they're not light on their plots, but they're not too heavy, and each links their games to each other in some sense of continuity and connection. Ratchet and Clank has a whole different plot each game, but no one forgets the adventures even if it's just a mere "They've save the galaxy X amount of times". Sly Cooper's plots tend to connect each other by ways of events that happen in the previous games or the characters that get involved, as some old characters make other appearances in their later games and join the team, even if they were enemies in the past. Megaman practically connects everything from the classic all the way to ZX, starting off with the original Megaman before his creator makes a new Megaman that has the rational though process equivalent to that of a human; this ends up making a whole new race of robots which then starts tipping things into chaos as these robots start going on rampages and killing humans and reploids who protect the humans, until everything goes straight to hell in the Zero series, only for things to be rebuilt in ZX when humans and reploids are no longer any different from each other.

I'll even use Legend of Zelda as I did in other half my last post, as it is not only capable of handling things from various spectrums of tone and detail, it can do so without losing it's identity. Wind waker has a much different style than Majora's Mask. While that may be the whole point in setting the identity to be different from each game in it's series (and probably the reason why it has it's own Zelda cycle), needless to say it still handles different themes. Heck Majora's Mask is a great example, Link was a child in the darkest game of the series and he had the responsibility that should've more or less been given to someone much older than him, and yet he took care of main threat that went on. But as dark as the game was, it wasn't something you could say isn't a Zelda game. MM is to Zelda what SA2 is to Sonic, in short. Then there's Wind Waker, a game that while I haven't actually played, I can easily tell that it's plot and tone is far different from MM and is more lighthearted by comparison.

Now I can go on for paragraphs, but at the end of the day, Sonic needs to develop into something that has a quality of it's own. I've said it before in this topic, it's not a matter of complexity, and it's not a matter of tone. Sonic's shown what he can work with and where he falters and for him to play it safe for that reason is not even bothering to realize this very point.

Edited October 31, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dejablue]

I love how butt hurt you get when someone merely disagrees with you. It's adorably annoying. I get what Solid SOAP is saying. Writing a story for interactive media IS different than writing for a movie, comic, or book. It just IS. Of course its possible to make stories for games. If it weren't the industry would have never made it this far. Sonic Team just has a really bad hit or miss ratio. No reason for you to go on a raaaampaaaage. Throwing out accusations on people and being angry for no real reason. Good God. Calm the hell down.

Personally though I wouldn't want the Sonic games to have Banjo Kazooie plots. Which are as paper thin as they get. I think Sonic can do much much better than that.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Dejablue

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I love how butt hurt you get when someone merely disagrees with you. It's adorably annoying.

Butt hurt? I love how you actually came to this conclusion when I even bother to disagree in the first place however strongly I come off.

Could you honestly be anymore disrespectful than that?

I get what Solid SOAP is saying. Writing a story for interactive media IS different than writing for a movie, comic, or book. It just IS.

Do you even know what goes into writing a story?

Scriptwriting.

Dialogs and voice overs.

Themes.

Style.

Prose.

And many other literary techniques.

In other words, it's the same thing that video games have in their stories that all other storytelling media contains. The only thing video games differ from all that is how they involve the player. And that's the only variable that makes the difference. Take it out and it's the same as all the others, but that falls more in line with the gameplay than the actual story unless we're going into RPG territory.

No reason for you to go on a raaaampaaaage.

I'm honestly tempted to report you for this, because the only thing that's about to make me go on a "raaaaaampaaaage" is how mocking and disrespectful you're being.

I heard what Solid Soap said, now I'm making a response back. And if that's what you see as a rampage, then you honestly shouldn't even be on an internet forum.

Throwing out accusations on people and being angry for no real reason. Good God. Calm the hell down.

Do me a favor will ya? List the accusations I made on Solid Soap, and I'll tell you why I said it and what I meant.

Edited October 31, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dejablue]

I do know what goes into a story. I don't need a lesson. The thing is Sonic Team sometimes seems to know how to do it right. And sometimes they do not. And Sonic Team uses those ingredients all the time. Sometimes what they pop out of the oven aint so great. I really don't know what that exact miniscule issue is but when they do pull it off its quite glorious. This may not be directly related to Sonic. But I know people say that writing for video games can be a challenge.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I really don't know what that exact miniscule issue is but when they do pull it off its quite glorious.

It's called execution. It's what allows you to pull it off so gloriously. You could have something that has the potential to be as great as Shakespear, but if it isn't quality made, then it's not going to reach that level.

It's the same thing that allows franchise to actually pull of the things Sonic didn't do so well in, because they weren't executed very well and had poor quality.

This may not be directly related to Sonic. But I know people say that writing for video games can be a challenge.

The only challenge is when the player is actually involved in the story, as in they're making decisions that influence how the character developes. But not every game does that. They essentially have a story that's no different from what you could find in movies or cartoons, the only difference is that the player is just guiding them to their objectives while the character's take care of everything else in the plots as they were made by the developers.

They're about the same challenge as it would be for writing for something other than a video game unless you're writing for an RPG or something that makes the player more involved than video games do as far as plots go, and it shouldn't take a lot of dissecting to see that.

Edited October 31, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dejablue]

Yeah I made mention to execution in an earlier post. But I'm looking for a more microscopic explanation.