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Why Is Generations Recieving More Hate Than Colors?

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That wasn't the case with some reviews regarding Generations where none of them are even playable. They complained regardless.

I haven't seen any complaints from a reputable review. Some reviews bashed the game for asinine reasons such as the very inclusion of anything not from the Genesis era, but many such as IGN's and Game Trailers' perhaps didn't open their arms lovingly upon the site on Charmy or Vector, but commended SEGA's effort of making them fun additions to the gameplay.

But not all of us want that. We have fans of every character, with the more popular ones holding a strong representation in the franchise. Characters like the Baby versions of the Mario cast are much less recognized than character such as Silver, Blaze, or Amy.

I'd like to argue that the general public probably knows more about the existence of Baby Mario and Daisy than, say, Silver or Blaze, but that's kind of irrelevant.

The only real response would be to tough it out until SEGA made a game that made them relevant again. I'd rather have these characters used in ways that enhanced the gameplay and story as opposed to ruining it just for the sake of fan service. Yes, some people might be upset that Silver isn't playable anymore, but people were upset that there hasn't been a mainstream Donkey Kong game in years, being forced through spin-offs and crap like Donkey Konga and that Bongo racing game.. Now look, Nintendo come out with Donkey Kong Country Returns, and it's hailed as one of the best in the series and pushed amazing sales. Quality over fan service, in my opinion. SEGA can't force every single character under the sun into the game when they don't add anything to the game.

That, and some of us actually want to play as our favorites in a main game and not a spin-off we're less likely to play by comparison, and to add to that we also don't like to be forced to play as characters we have no interest in. Relegating them to spin-offs is not even trying to solve the problem than it is to make a lazy way around the solution, so why not do as you said and make them optional?

Well, they did, and I think the series has been all the better for it. The main focus should still be on Sonic, however.

Remind me what makes a character "necessary" again?

If they add to the gameplay or story in any way that isn't shitty. The amigos in Sonic '06 were unnecessary and unwanted, they took away from the gameplay and practically added zero to the storyline other than "Hey look! It's Knuckles!". The characters in Unleashed and Colors, however, were all necessary to the story and gameplay. Sonic is the main character, obviously, and Tails' and his brotherly bond was nice to see in cutscenes and added depth to Sonic's character, as well as added some humor. Eggman is the villain and he's the main target.

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Vanilla...Bowser?

Never heard of that one. Just sounds like Bowser took his rivalry in the Mario and Sonic series so far as to breach into Sonic X and try to make off with some bait. :/

And Bowser Jr can't really be counted as a Bowser variation, unless you want to lump all the Koopalings in there as well.

...Now I need to get back on topic. Yes, there was disdain for the side characters despite them not doing anything from reputable sites as well.

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Vanilla...Bowser?

Never heard of that one. Just sounds like Bowser took his rivalry in the Mario and Sonic series so far as to breach into Sonic X and try to make off with some bait. :/

EWWwwww....thanks for that mental image, I really hope Rule 34 doesn't apply here.

And I meant vanilla as in regular, plain, bowser.

Anyway, back on topic.

I for one wouldn't mind a spinoff game for another character, as long as it doesn't play like a bad ripoff of Sonic *cough*Shadow*cough*

It's been how many years since Knuckles Chaotix, Tails Adventures/Sky Patrol? I think it must be nearly time for a new spinoff. Maybe not a full retail release as it would be too costly if it flopped *cough*Shadow*cough*

Perhaps a smaller digital download release?

But who would get such a game? And would it have to still be a platformer? What about a completely different genre? Chaotix point and click detective adventures, anyone?

Edit : Just re-read the topic title and realised this isn't really on topic...wacko.png

Whoops.

Edited by bigthecat

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I haven't seen any complaints from a reputable review. Some reviews bashed the game for asinine reasons such as the very inclusion of anything not from the Genesis era, but many such as IGN's and Game Trailers' perhaps didn't open their arms lovingly upon the site on Charmy or Vector, but commended SEGA's effort of making them fun additions to the gameplay.

You must've not been around the Review topic very much, because there were a few reviews that complained about little things such as Cream or Amy being in the game.

I'd like to argue that the general public probably knows more about the existence of Baby Mario and Daisy than, say, Silver or Blaze, but that's kind of irrelevant.

Wait, we have a Baby Daisy now?

...I definitely know she isn't more well known compared to Silver or Blaze given how recent that is.

The only real response would be to tough it out until SEGA made a game that made them relevant again. I'd rather have these characters used in ways that enhanced the gameplay and story as opposed to ruining it just for the sake of fan service. Yes, some people might be upset that Silver isn't playable anymore, but people were upset that there hasn't been a mainstream Donkey Kong game in years, being forced through spin-offs and crap like Donkey Konga and that Bongo racing game.. Now look, Nintendo come out with Donkey Kong Country Returns, and it's hailed as one of the best in the series and pushed amazing sales. Quality over fan service, in my opinion.

I suppose that's only made better by Generations being a sign that they're not forgetting the characters.

However,

SEGA can't force every single character under the sun into the game when they don't add anything to the game.

That's not what I'm saying, nor have I been advocating it since Sonic 06, and in fact have been saying that VERY thing regarding the use of characters if you've read a number of my posts on the subject. I've been against that for a very long time, and I thought you would know that given how loudly I've been saying it on the forums.

Well, they did, and I think the series has been all the better for it. The main focus should still be on Sonic, however.

Hardly anyone has been saying the contrary. But we do want to see more of our favorite characters get a large piece of the action too.

If they add to the gameplay or story in any way that isn't shitty. The amigos in Sonic '06 were unnecessary and unwanted, they took away from the gameplay and practically added zero to the storyline other than "Hey look! It's Knuckles!". The characters in Unleashed and Colors, however, were all necessary to the story and gameplay. Sonic is the main character, obviously, and Tails' and his brotherly bond was nice to see in cutscenes and added depth to Sonic's character, as well as added some humor. Eggman is the villain and he's the main target.

Okay, just trying to gauge your response before I made an attempt to tear it apart. laugh.png

Remember Jim Sterling's knee jerk reaction to finding out Silver was in the game...

http://www.destructo...ns-213477.phtml

213477-header.jpg

Jim Sterling also said he wasn't being serious in that same preview in the comments section.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic

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I think the reason this game isn't getting the massive praise everyone thinks it deserves, is because...well why should it? Yeah, its better than Colors, but not by much; more content, better controls and better level design yeah, but that's about it, and those are things that should always take place in sequels, and really shouldn't count towards critical acclaim, unless its in regards to the previous entry.

When you get down to it, Generations is very meh, in terms of new content; No new gameplay mechanics, No new levels, Still only Sonic, even less of a story than Colors. Modern Gameplay is basically Unleashed with a fresh new coat of paint(And before people get on my case about this, I'm talking about in terms of gameplay mechanics and level gimmicks), Classic Gameplay is considerably different from the Genesis games, especially if you're so used to Genesis Gameplay, that things you think you can do in it, you can't. The story gives you no motivation to finish it at all, its more or less an afterthought, and 20th Anniversary or not, I want a legitimate reason to go through a game instead of going through level to level with nothing connecting them. The lack of character interactions makes the cutscenes even more pointless, you could could leave only the intro, Pre-final boss scene, and the Ending, and the story wouldn't be affected at all, that's how pointless the scenes in this game are.

All in All, everybody should be happy with what Generations got considering what little it has in terms of new content.

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I think the reason this game isn't getting the massive praise everyone thinks it deserves, is because...well why should it? Yeah, its better than Colors, but not by much; more content, better controls and better level design yeah, but that's about it, and those are things that should always take place in sequels, and really shouldn't count towards critical acclaim, unless its in regards to the previous entry.

When you get down to it, Generations is very meh, in terms of new content; No new gameplay mechanics, No new levels, Still only Sonic, even less of a story than Colors. Modern Gameplay is basically Unleashed with a fresh new coat of paint(And before people get on my case about this, I'm talking about in terms of gameplay mechanics and level gimmicks), Classic Gameplay is considerably different from the Genesis games, especially if you're so used to Genesis Gameplay, that things you think you can do in it, you can't. The story gives you no motivation to finish it at all, its more or less an afterthought, and 20th Anniversary or not, I want a legitimate reason to go through a game instead of going through level to level with nothing connecting them. The lack of character interactions makes the cutscenes even more pointless, you could could leave only the intro, Pre-final boss scene, and the Ending, and the story wouldn't be affected at all, that's how pointless the scenes in this game are.

All in All, everybody should be happy with what Generations got considering what little it has in terms of new content.

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My opinion is that when sonic colors came reviewers didn't had their expectations very high do to the quality of most recent games.

While when generations came out reviewers already played sonic 4 episode 1(now as good as the classics but a good platformer game) and colors, so they somewhat raised their expectations just by a bit. Also we have a lot of other big games just releasing this month.

But one thing is for sure a lot of the critics the game is receiving is still based on "sonic games suck", but more weak this time and more discrete than other games because generations is actually good.

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Sega have been saying all along that they never intended to bring much in the way of completely new content, albeit not in those words, rather they've always declared it to be "a celebration of Sonic's greatest moments in history" etc, etc, blah blah blah...

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I'd rather they never do something like this again, it seems lazy just to take old levels and make them new, rather than coming up with new level ideas on your own. You don't need a game based entirely around nostalgia to celebrate a milestone; a nod here and there is good, but it should never be a complete retread.

Edited by sonfan1984

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Given Sonic Team's track record, giving us something new and original rarely results in something good.

Werehogs, swords, human princesses, guns...

They have done so with Colors last year. They just need to learn not to add that stuff in.

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(Warning! This may contain opinions!)

I honestly don't get why this game is getting so much hate, even from you guys. It is an IMPROVEMENT over Colours, and that was already a awesome Sonic game. While Colours was awesome, this game does what it doesn't. 3d platforming, a not 100% accurate but still fairly accurate and FAR better then Sonic 4 Classic Sonic, and Sonic's freinds are back (even though there is not much dialogue, but come on, SEGA took a RISK by just PUTTING them in, and some of the reviewer comments show that). Yes, it's not perfect. Yes, the story has an incomplete feel. Yes, rolling is gimped. Yes, they played it safe. But these should not be enough for it to be getting the hate it does. We should, in the end, be just happy that we have a game of this quality from Sonic Team.

[/rant]

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It might seem lazy to you but I bet them bringing back Classic Sonic and all the nostalgia with recreating the old levels in HD is one of the main reasons why critics and people outside the fanbase are even paying attention to this game and acts like Sonic is not worth their time, money and attention if he doesn't rely on his past all the time. If Generations doesn't do so well then at least I'll be happy to know that a recent modern Sonic game that came out last year is doing better then a game that has C.Sonic in it and a lot of nostalgia.

Well if the recent reviews are anything to go by, people are sick of nostalgia and want to see something else.

Given Sonic Team's track record, giving us something new and original rarely results in something good.

Werehogs, swords, human princesses, guns...

Last year we were using Colored squids to power ourselves up...nobody complained.

Not saying they should NEVER try anything new (In fact Sonic Team should be commended for being so bold, it's rare you see companies taking such risks these days) but sometimes it's best to stick to what you know will be really good and what you know will sell (it is a business, first and foremost).

That's all well and good, but considering Generations pretty much got the same reactions as Colors, I hardly think its taking them anywhere forward.

I really don't see how Sonic Generations can be seen as 'lazy'.Look at other compilation titles just re-releasing upscaled older games (Devil May Cry, God of War, Metal Gear Solid, Ico/SotC, Mario All Stars, Silent Hill...).

Those are updated ports instead of new games to be honest, you can't really compare the two.

After all the effort Sonic Team's put into remixing music, overhauling graphics, bringing back long dead gameplay mechanics from the classics, you'd just rather they hadn't have bothered at all? Or just churned out a half arsed Sonic Jam 2 in a matter of weeks? Seems a little ungrateful if you ask me.

Well if all that effort didn't really lead to anything, what am I supposed to say? "Congratulations Sonic Team, I mean you didn't really do anything new this time, but at least I get to see old stuff in HD"

And Generations' levels are effectively new stages.

There's a difference between creating an entirely new stage and setting than taking an existing stage and setting and remaking it.

Outside of a few nods to the source material, the level layouts are new (particularly for the classic acts). Does it really make that much of a difference what environments the layouts are in?

Not really, but then again, you've seen this stage before. Its still fun to play, but the sense that its something fresh and new isn't really there because you've done this before. I'd argue the Modern Acts are better at this, but it doesn't really add anything new to the experience either.

Heck, you could argue that every Sonic game after a certain point is remaking old stages just by using existing tropes from older games.

Can you really compare something like Lava Reef to Flame Core? Same Trope =/= Same Level.

(Warning! This may contain opinions!)

I honestly don't get why this game is getting so much hate, even from you guys. It is an IMPROVEMENT over Colours, and that was already a awesome Sonic game. While Colours was awesome, this game does what it doesn't. 3d platforming, a not 100% accurate but still fairly accurate and FAR better then Sonic 4 Classic Sonic, and Sonic's freinds are back (even though there is not much dialogue, but come on, SEGA took a RISK by just PUTTING them in, and some of the reviewer comments show that). Yes, it's not perfect. Yes, the story has an incomplete feel. Yes, rolling is gimped. Yes, they played it safe. But these should not be enough for it to be getting the hate it does. We should, in the end, be just happy that we have a game of this quality from Sonic Team.

[/rant]

I'm not hating the game, I love this game, I'm just stating why its not getting the so-called praise it deserves. Everything you listed does make this game great, but ask yourself this, how does the game hold up when its not compared to previous games in terms of design and level layout and entirely on its own merit as a platformer.

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I'm not hating the game, I love this game, I'm just stating why its not getting the so-called praise it deserves. Everything you listed does make this game great, but ask yourself this, how does the game hold up when its not compared to previous games in terms of design and level layout and entirely on its own merit as a platformer.

On it's own merit as a platformer, I'd say it stands up. When done well, Sonic games have all had fast-paced platforming (well not very fast, but still faster then Mario), that's unique and different, and this game delivers that in spades. This game (for the Modern half anyway) also works in break-neck speed sections into the mix, and while it may feel a little jarring, is still a rush, and this game uses it effectively, in short bursts. As for the Classic side of things, while it is not 100% accurate, momentum still plays a role, and bouncing off enemies returns. And of course, both types of platforming flow well and are well designed. So yes, IMO, as a platformer, I think it stands up.

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Well if the recent reviews are anything to go by, people are sick of nostalgia and want to see something else.

Yeah, and some of those are coming from the same people who is complaining that there's stages and elements from the Dreamcast and Modern eras and there's not enough classic levels in this game. If they do something else then I don't think it will grab their attention but at the same time I think Sega should move on and make a new game with brand new levels.

Edited by sonfan1984

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Well if the recent reviews are anything to go by, people are sick of nostalgia and want to see something else.

Are they sick of it, though? The game's got a score of 77 on metacritic currently, so Sonic Team must have done something right.

I agree that nostalgia alone can't carry a game, it has to have the gameplay to back it up ; Sonic 4 failed in this regard, where Generations excels (IMO).

Last year we were using Colored squids to power ourselves up...nobody complained.

I said rarely results in good, not never. Colours was one of those rare occasions. (Although here's hoping Sonic Team continually improve from this point onwards so it doesn't become a rarity...)

Well if all that effort didn't really lead to anything, what am I supposed to say? "Congratulations Sonic Team, I mean you didn't really do anything new this time, but at least I get to see old stuff in HD"

Yes, dammit! tongue.png Seriously though, it's not just as if being in HD gets it a free pass, (Sonic 4 was in HD too) it's more about appreciating the presentation as a whole, the aesthetics of the environments, the architecture or the stage designs, the little details and flourishes in the background, the sound design, the sheer number of new remixes, it all adds up, it really shows that a lot of love went into the making of the game.

Not really, but then again, you've seen this stage before. Its still fun to play, but the sense that its something fresh and new isn't really there because you've done this before. I'd argue the Modern Acts are better at this, but it doesn't really add anything new to the experience either.

Have to disagree on this point. It works both ways, the modern acts do have a freshness about them (The differences between Generations Green Hill and SA2 Green Hill are like night and day), "blazing through classic zones in an all new perspective" does seem new and exciting (to a certain extent). Likewise, the classic stages based on modern zones feel like completely new stages (Speed Highway and Rooftop Run play being my personal high points).

You keep referring to the stages as simple retreads, but look at the additions that have been made, for example, underwater sections of Seaside Hill or the carnival elements and airship added to Rooftop Run. Personally I think it's these little touches that keep things from becoming stale or boring. Regardless of whether or not you think Sonic Team failed in this regard, you could at least still acknowledge that they tried, rather than just saying everything's copy/pasted from the old games.

Can you really compare something like Lava Reef to Flame Core? Same Trope =/= Same Level.

You're absolutely right, I can't compare 2D stages to 3D ones. I was thinking more along the lines of comparing Forest Falls to Green Hill, Hot Crater to Lava Reef, Mirage Road to Sandopolis, Blizzard Peaks to Twinkle Snow, that sort of thing.

I'm not hating the game, I love this game, I'm just stating why its not getting the so-called praise it deserves. Everything you listed does make this game great, but ask yourself this, how does the game hold up when its not compared to previous games in terms of design and level layout and entirely on its own merit as a platformer.

Pretty damn well, I'd say. Partly because (imagining for an instant that this was the first Sonic game ever made) platforming with speed and precision is something that you simply can't get from any other (good) game, Sonic's literally in a league of his own.

Admittedly, I would also say it's success is due to a lack of competition in general, I can count the big budget platform games (released at retail) on one hand. Mario, El Shaddai, Rayman Origins.....um...that's it? Platform games aren't exactly an overcrowded market right now.

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Yeah, and some of those are coming from the same people who is complaining that there's stages and elements from the Dreamcast and Modern eras and there's not enough classic levels in this game.

The Classic, Dreamcast and Modern era all have the same amount of stages.

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The Classic, Dreamcast and Modern era all have the same amount of stages.

I know but thats what some reviewers are complaining about. They want the classic stages to take up most of the time. I love the classic stages too but they're not the only good stages in the series.

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I know but thats what some reviewers are complaining about. They want the classic stages to take up most of the time. I love the classic stages too but they're not the only good stages in the series.

Really? Well they have issues if they think the Classic era has the best stages, I actually like the Dreamcast era stages better.

Edited by Future-Hedgehog

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I know but thats what some reviewers are complaining about. They want the classic stages to take up most of the time. I love the classic stages too but they're not the only good stages in the series.

One complaint I've seen in some reviews that I can kind of agree with (to some extent) is that modern Sonic gets lumped in with 2 eras, gets 2/3 of the bosses and Classic Sonic draws a shorter straw in this regard.

However the only fair way to rectify this would be to have a 3rd Dreamcast Sonic and give each zone 3 acts, with the 3rd act being heavy on exploration.

Obviously this would take up far too much development time and money, but is nice simply as a 'what if' scenario. I know I'd get a kick out of seeing a square fisted polygonal Sonic interacting with the other two Sonics.

Edited by bigthecat

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Stupid Skype, always taking my time, anywho

Are they sick of it, though? The game's got a score of 77 on metacritic currently, so Sonic Team must have done something right.

I agree that nostalgia alone can't carry a game, it has to have the gameplay to back it up ; Sonic 4 failed in this regard, where Generations excels (IMO).

77 is the same score as Colors, and that's not really improvement, its just staying the same..which is just meh.

I said rarely results in good, not never. Colours was one of those rare occasions. (Although here's hoping Sonic Team continually improve from this point onwards so it doesn't become a rarity...)

And based on those rare occasions, there's no reason to assume they can't do it again with another game.

Yes, dammit! tongue.png Seriously though, it's not just as if being in HD gets it a free pass, (Sonic 4 was in HD too) it's more about appreciating the presentation as a whole, the aesthetics of the environments, the architecture or the stage designs, the little details and flourishes in the background, the sound design, the sheer number of new remixes, it all adds up, it really shows that a lot of love went into the making of the game.

And I do realize and appreciate the effort they've put in, but its going towards the wrong things.

Have to disagree on this point. It works both ways, the modern acts do have a freshness about them (The differences between Generations Green Hill and SA2 Green Hill are like night and day), "blazing through classic zones in an all new perspective" does seem new and exciting (to a certain extent). Likewise, the classic stages based on modern zones feel like completely new stages (Speed Highway and Rooftop Run play being my personal high points).

You keep referring to the stages as simple retreads, but look at the additions that have been made, for example, underwater sections of Seaside Hill or the carnival elements and airship added to Rooftop Run. Personally I think it's these little touches that keep things from becoming stale or boring. Regardless of whether or not you think Sonic Team failed in this regard, you could at least still acknowledge that they tried, rather than just saying everything's copy/pasted from the old games.

I'm talking about in regards to Modern gameplay, it hasn't really changed so it just feels the same.

You're absolutely right, I can't compare 2D stages to 3D ones. I was thinking more along the lines of comparing Forest Falls to Green Hill, Hot Crater to Lava Reef, Mirage Road to Sandopolis, Blizzard Peaks to Twinkle Snow, that sort of thing.

Even those levels are completely different despite being based on the same trope.

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One complaint I've seen in some reviews that I can kind of agree with (to some extent) is that modern Sonic gets lumped in with 2 eras, gets 2/3 of the bosses and Classic Sonic draws a shorter straw in this regard.

Actually, they probably could of lumped Dreamcast era with Modern era. They did it with Modern Sonic so why not? I would of preferred if the game was a 5 to 5 ratio with equal bosses/rivals.

The final boss was just really meh, I was extremely disappointed at how Generations tied everything together.

Edited by Autosaver

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