An Immortal Glass Cannon.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Sup.

So here we have Shadow. He's the ultimate lifeform, he's very powerful, nigh-immortal, and really fast. He has abilities that would make people jealous of other characters not having some, and the only character who has the potential to top him that regard is Silver with his telekinesis.

But what does this have to do with the topic? In a past debate I had with Shadic93 about Shadow, we came to a idea that while Shadow may have the powers of Sonic and his own abilities, what if he also has Sonic's weaknesses? He probably can't swim (who really knows), but aside from that Shadow doesn't have any known weaknesses. And characters with flaws are without a doubt more interesting than characters without flaws.

So we came up with the idea of making Shadow a glass cannon: basically he is really fucking powerful to dish out damage, but he can't take a lot of it right back. High attack, low defense. Sounds like a great way to balance a character who is seen as overpowered, right? But then there's a confliction with his immortality that renders him immune most severe forms of damage, so how can he survive dangers that would likely kill someone and be a glass cannon.

On one hand, while he did survive atmospheric reentry back to earth he probably got amnesia from the landing. Than again, Sonic has done it multiple times despite not being one of the physically weaker than characters such as Shadow and Knuckles. But on the other hand, Shadow has shown some degree of durability that contradicts what can make a character a glass cannon.

So any thoughts to work around this equation?

[Sparky]

He has emense power, But he needs to wear those inhibitor rings because without them, His power and stamina would drain quickly.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Which perspective are we talking about here? Comics, cutscenes, fanfics, or gameplay?

Because all I can think is that I died a lot as Shadow in Shadow the Hedgehog

[Kuzu]

While I'm all for him being a Glass Cannon, it all depends on what context;If its for fighting game, then yeah he should be that as a way to balance him: Akuma if you will.

If we're talking more of a general sense, then yeah I can see it.

[Scar]

Yeah, I think that could work. Though rather than the glass cannon in the fashion you stated, I'd much rather take a slightly different approach. Rather than being powerful but fragile (lol Deoxys), I think it would fit Shadow better to be a bezerker. Insanely powerful in short bursts, but tires out very quickly and needs time to recharge his internal Chaos batteries. In terms of gameplay, he would be Sonic but with a different moveset, however in certain situations, usually pertaining to the use of his Chaos Powers, he deals a shit-load of damage, but becomes slower for a short period of time (around 15-30 seconds), his chaos energy taking a longer time to return to normal (50-80 seconds).

As tsz11 pointed out above; the inhibitor rings.

He is, in short, a living Chaos Capacitor. With his inhibitor rings, he's able to charge up Chaos Energy. When those rings are removed, he's able to release that energy in a short, explosive and highly damaging burst. Then he needs to recharge.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Scar

[Kuzu]

Yeah, I think that could work. Though rather than the glass cannon in the fashion you stated, I'd much rather take a slightly different approach. Rather than being powerful but fragile (lol Deoxys), I think it would fit Shadow better to be a bezerker. Insanely powerful in short bursts, but tires out very quickly and needs time to recharge his internal Chaos batteries. In terms of gameplay, he would be Sonic but with a different moveset, however in certain situations, usually pertaining to the use of his Chaos Powers, he deals a shit-load of damage, but becomes slower for a short period of time (around 15-30 seconds), his chaos energy taking a longer time to return to normal (50-80 seconds).

As tsz11 pointed out above; the inhibitor rings.

He is, in short, a living Chaos Capacitor. With his inhibitor rings, he's able to charge up Chaos Energy. When those rings are removed, he's able to release hat energy in a short, explosive and highly damaging burst. Then he needs to recharge.

Maybe something like an Overdrive mode?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Which perspective are we talking about here? Comics, cutscenes, fanfics, or gameplay?

Because all I can think is that I died a lot as Shadow in Shadow the Hedgehog

Cutscenes and Gamplay.

Comics have him as more flawed and interesting, and he's not overpowered given there are plenty of characters much more powerful than him.

Fanfics I couldn't give half a shit about since I'm more into the official portrayal. (that's not saying I don't enjoy a good fanfic)

Edited November 8, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Burnout.

Shadow may have the speed, strength, and resistance to damage to win most fights, but does he have the endurance? Obviously he's got far more than any normal person, but all his flashy moves must require a lot of energy (physical and chaos). While Sonic has seemingly boundless energy, how much can Shadow do before he runs low and has to resort to casting from hit points?

Call him a revolver. Six shots-is that really enough to kill everything that moves?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I just sorta figured he was extremely powerful, but that also prevents him from getting hit very often, so he would get knocked out for lengthy periods of time.

To put it in gameplay terms, say for example that Sonic gets knocked down after getting hit, his recovery is fairly quick since even though he could be classified as a fragile speedster, he has to endure hits very frequently due to all of his abilities being in close range, so he has a fairly quick recovery time,

Shadow can destroy large numbers of enemies very quickly or if charged up long enough, can take out larger enemies more easily than Sonic can. however, because many of his abilities involve Chaos Powers, which are mostly ranged (or because he slows down enemy attack so he can easily avoid them), he rarely gets hurt, so when he DOES get hit, it takes a longer time to recover.His immortality allows him to survive extremely dangerous hits that could otherwise kill someone else, but as Finn from Jackie Chan Adventures once quoted after he ran into a wall with immortality turned on:

"Immortality Hurts."

To put it in Numbers:

Sonic recovery time (after being hit): 2-3 seconds. 5-6 seconds if tired

Shadow recovery time: 5-6 seconds if using minimal power, 7-8 seconds if exhausted

Edited November 9, 2011 by Enigma2

[Indigo Rush]

I agree with the sentiments on stamina. Remember, Shadow uses skates to achieve super speed, while Sonic and others don't use any assistance (Tails and Blaze being lone exceptions) It can be assumed that it takes less physical strength to move at incredible speeds with that sort of handicap. That's not to say that he can't run fast without them, but he'd probably just tucker out at some point.

I also like to believe that Eggman has some sort of emotional hold on Shadow, being relatives to Gerald and Maria. He always refers to him as the "Doctor," rather than simply Eggman. This implies a certain level of respect from Shadow to Eggman, so despite the (BLATANTLY NON-CANONICAL) ending of Shadow's game where he deals the final blow to Eggman, I don't think in a modern setting that he'd have the guts to do it. Eggman is his last known link to Maria and Gerald, and despite him throwing the past behind him, there are some things you don't forget.

This could be an exploitable weakness on Eggman's part.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Indigo Rush

[Sparky]

I agree with the sentiments on stamina. Remember, Shadow uses skates to achieve super speed, while Sonic and others don't use any assistance (Tails and Blaze being lone exceptions) It can be assumed that it takes less physical strength to move at incredible speeds with that sort of handicap. That's not to say that he can't run fast without them, but he'd probably just tucker out at some point.

I also like to believe that Eggman has some sort of emotional hold on Shadow, being relatives to Gerald and Maria. He always refers to him as the "Doctor," rather than simply Eggman. This implies a certain level of respect from Shadow to Eggman, so despite the (BLATANTLY NON-CANONICAL) ending of Shadow's game where he deals the final blow to Eggman, I don't think in a modern setting that he'd have the guts to do it. Eggman is his last known link to Maria and Gerald, and despite him throwing the past behind him, there are some things you don't forget.

This could be an exploitable weakness on Eggman's part.

I don't Shadow gets his speed through the shoes. I think its natural for him.

Plus, his Bio in SG states that he is the splitting image of Sonic, Sharing his speed and agility.

-----

Would someone really kill their nephew? (Shadow is technically Geralds son, Eggman is Geralds grandson, and the Son of Geralds daughter or another Son, which would be Shadows sibling, Meaning Shadow is Eggmans uncle.

Edited November 8, 2011 by tsz11

[Gamenerd]

Based on the fact that Shadow should be at least partially based on the outcomes of the initial Project Shadow (Biolizard) experiment, Shadow can presumably regenerate limbs and do all sorts of 'immortal' and impressive stuff, however like Biolizard, he probably has some form of immortality-inducing eternal engine inside him (like the one on top of Biolizard, but internal), as well as an organ that allows for refined use of Chaos Control.

So based on that, I imagine Shadow needs fairly frequent exposure to Chaos energy to maintain his 'immortality'. It's a good thing he's pretty much always around Chaos Emeralds, Chaos Drives and Rings then, isn't it? Alternatively, he could probably be finished off if somebody could get through his tough skin and damage the eternal engine, but as long as that's in place, there's probably not much you can do but knock him out for a short period of time.

That said, I've not played Shadow The Hedgehog at all, but from my understanding, his blood comes from an alien, right? That might be a factor.

[Diogenes]

Based on the fact that Shadow should be at least partially based on the outcomes of the initial Project Shadow (Biolizard) experiment, Shadow can presumably regenerate limbs and do all sorts of 'immortal' and impressive stuff, however like Biolizard, he probably has some form of immortality-inducing eternal engine inside him (like the one on top of Biolizard, but internal)

I don't know about that. The Biolizard was a failed experiment. It's not necessarily true that Shadow was built on the same concepts; the Biolizard may have been a dead-end branch. Especially considering ShtH's whole alien blood thing never mentions the Biolizard; that may be something Shadow alone has, as an alternative to the Biolizard's reptilian regeneration and built-in life support machine.

[Sega DogTagz]

Especially considering ShtH's whole alien blood thing never mentions the Biolizard;

Did it really have too? Biolizard was capable of Chaos Control after all, there aren't too many ways to get access to that kind of ability.

Anyway, If were looking at Glass Cannon territory, I'll follow the mindsets of some of the other people around here and suggest gimping Shadow through his lack of stamina. Every character in the franchise sports super-human recovery abilities from time to time, save for Shadow. He tucked out and died in SA2 and was shown as frail and weak for an extended period of time in Battle. As strong as he is, he cant keep up the god mode pace very long without severe drawback.

[NintendoSoul]

He needs his inhibitor rings to control his power, otherwise he get drain of his energy to quickly, that's a nice weakness, but I like the Glass Cannon idea.

[Diogenes]

Did it really have too? Biolizard was capable of Chaos Control after all, there aren't too many ways to get access to that kind of ability.

Machines can do it. Maybe so can the one strapped to his back?

[Sega DogTagz]

Machines can do it. Maybe so can the one strapped to his back?

Is there any confirmed machine capable of doing it outside of Metal Sonic? He does have the ability to copy/paste his opponents powers.

[Koopalmier]

Shadow is overpowered and immortal, but he doesn't use it to go like "WAAH I'M THE SERIES' BADASS CHARACTER SO I'M GONNA DESTROY UP ALL SHIT". He's calm and arrogant, and won't get involved in a matter if he doesn't think he's the one who should fix it (unlike Sonic who fixes everything because he's a hero with a golden heart).

Shadow's overpowered, but he doesn't use it constantly like a retarded teen. He's very strong but also mature.

I'm okay with that.

[Johnny Boy]

Shadow CAN swim. Did you not play the first Mario and Sonic title. Lol

[Gamenerd]

I don't know about that. The Biolizard was a failed experiment. It's not necessarily true that Shadow was built on the same concepts; the Biolizard may have been a dead-end branch. Especially considering ShtH's whole alien blood thing never mentions the Biolizard; that may be something Shadow alone has, as an alternative to the Biolizard's reptilian regeneration and built-in life support machine.

That's true, I haven't played much of Shadow and I don't really plan on picking it up any time soon based on my experiences of the game, so it's entirely possible the Black Doom blood plotline probably means Gerald's research swerved in a different direction entirely. That said, it's also entirely possible that Shadow was the fruit of Gerald's efforts in all the fields of research he took part in - partially based on the alien plotline, partially based on former breakthroughs made with the Biolizard and partially based on the murals and statues of a hedgehog that Gerald probably found in Echidnian ruins whilst researching Gizoids and the emeralds.

But my limited knowledge of Black Doom is based on articles I've read. Was he actually immortal or did he just claim to be? I'm seriously in the dark when it comes to ShTH and 2006.

[Chaos Nightmare Moon]

Shadow has no apparent weakness in endurance. He like Sonic is strong as the plot wants him to be.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Shadow CAN swim. Did you not play the first Mario and Sonic title. Lol

Nope. I actively avoid those games beyond watching the trailers.

Shadow is overpowered and immortal, but he doesn't use it to go like "WAAH I'M THE SERIES' BADASS CHARACTER SO I'M GONNA DESTROY UP ALL SHIT". He's calm and arrogant, and won't get involved in a matter if he doesn't think he's the one who should fix it (unlike Sonic who fixes everything because he's a hero with a golden heart).

Shadow's overpowered, but he doesn't use it constantly like a retarded teen. He's very strong but also mature.

I'm okay with that.

I'd like a character who has flaws, thanks. It doesn't matter if you are calm or a retarded teen, there should be some degree of balance so that the character can be defeated under the right circumstances.

[Chaos Nightmare Moon]

Shadow being flawless in power is kinda his edge from being a worf rival. Sonic can only defeat him and thats how it should be, but Shadow can also defeat Sonic back.

Theres no reason why the Ultimate Lifeform should be called that, if he is not Ultimate in every way.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Chaos Nightmare Moon

[Xenos]

Shadow being flawless in power is kinda his edge from being a worf rival. Sonic can only defeat him and thats how it should be, but Shadow can also defeat Sonic back.

Theres no reason why the Ultimate Lifeform should be called that, if he is not Ultimate in every way.

To be honest, i never liked him having that namesake when he clearly can be beaten by not only Sonic anyway.

Consider Tails, his tails have enough power to slash through metal and steel. Not to mention he nearly rivals Eggman in intelligence and he isn't even through his teenage years yet. He also has the ability to fly for periods of time.

Tails is a super-genius, I'm pretty sure if the circumstances were right, Tails could fight toe-to-toe with Shadow with the thought of Brain over Brawn.

It would be absolutely boring if the characters were given tiers. It all depends on who's fighting and what strategies they can use, I can think up plenty of ways Tails could at least get the upper hand against Shadow. Sonic and Shadow may be the strongest, but that doesn't mean they are impossible to beat.

And FYI, Shadow was called the Ultimate Life Form for one reason. Not in every way imaginable.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Theres no reason why the Ultimate Lifeform should be called that, if he is not Ultimate in every way.

If being a boring invincible character to many people isn't enough of a reason, then apparently there's nothing to else to tell you how stagnant that is.

Edited November 9, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic