Did Generations screw up the timeline more than it fixed it?

[PickleBrows]

Alright so to save time instead of writing spoiler tags everywhere I'll just say it here. There are gonna be spoilers in this topic so leave now if you don't want the story spoilt!

As anyone who has played the game knows, at the end of the game classic sonic and tails head back to the past bringing the game to a close. However they've gone back with complete knowledge of their future. Classic sonic also learned the air boost (lets not get into that argument again about that one cutscene) way before hes supposed to. The modern characters also completely remember the events but since they are at the latest point in time it wouldn't be a huge issue. The two eggmans have been left in limbo more or less as well (Although no doubt this'll be fixed by next game without an explination). So what does everyone else think, as far as the series cannon goes, has generations screwed up time more than it fixed it?

[Chili Dawg]

Not really. I don't see how any of that's really a problem.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

This is actually the first time the games have actually had any pretense of a timeline outside of the Death Egg Saga, so I don't really think you can damage what didn't exist in the first place.

[PickleBrows]

Not really. I don't see how any of that's really a problem.

[Sega DogTagz]

Classic Tails and Sonic only took a minimal amount of knowledge back to the past with them. If anything, what they saw in the future will only encourage them in their efforts in the past.

Think about this. Sonic's comment in which he said that that they "always beat Eggman" could have kick-started the bravado fueled attitude that Sonic uses to ultimately - always beat Eggman.

[-Mark-]

The way I see it, Generations is the game in which Sonic learns the homing attack (since you can get it as a skill for Classic Sonic). Also, considering this is Classic Sonic's 'last' canon appearance (since Sonic 4 follows directly on for him). He tries and fails to boost in the final cutscene, so I don't think we should assume he learned it.

The thing that bothers me more with all this time-travel malarkey is this;

See, time is all messed up and stuff. But for Classic Sonic, are his stages (Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Sky Sanctuary) the 'present' for him, or not? Is he doing all of those for the first time, or has he been sent back to do them over again?

There's also the whole matter of the fact that, assuming Classic Sonic's part of this game is set sometime between S3&K and Sonic 4, he's seen all of the Dreamcast and Modern era stages well in advance. Wouldn't this make him recognise all these stages when he finally comes round to actually visiting them at the proper time he's supposed to?

This causes more problems when you look at the differences, more notably the bosses- the Perfect Chaos and Death Egg Robot fights are drastically different from their original incarnations- so how does that work? Has Eggman changed history so that the bosses are different, or are we supposed to assume that these 'new' versions have been retconned in to supplant the originals, and therefore they were 'meant to have been that way all along'? Same goes for the Rival battles, especially Silver; what was originally a fight in a Soleanna town area has become a chase boss in Crisis City.

It gets even more confusing when you take into account that Perfect Chaos was originally a Super Sonic battle. If you've been sent back in time to fight him, shouldn't you see Super Sonic fighting him as well? Theoretically the Sonics should keep running into themselves at every revisited point in history.

Still, I think Sonic 4 screwed up the timeline the most by having Modern Sonic, despite apparently being set right after Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Did he just instantly transform or something? Although in fairness, you could argue that Generations brought about that problem by bringing Classic Sonic back- in all honesty, before Generations announced Classic Sonic, I simply made the assumption that Modern Sonic was supposed to have retconned Classic Sonic out of existence, and that from a plot-canon perspective, he'd simply always been 'Modern Sonic' now. To be honest, that would make a lot more sense, if you ask me.

Edited November 13, 2011 by -Mark-

[PickleBrows]

Ugg reading these replies is making me think sonic is becoming the new zelda in terms of piecing together a timepline and continunity

[Marcello]

I don't think it fixed anything.

This is actually the first time the games have actually had any pretense of a timeline outside of the Death Egg Saga, so I don't really think you can damage what didn't exist in the first place.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

One thing to clarify:

If you remember your Sonic 1 plot, the game is set on South Island, an island that happens to move around across the sea; how it does this is never explained. Sonic's there purely to explore such an unusual location until he discovers what's going on there; Eggman's there for the Chaos Emeralds. The point is, it's not an easy place to find, and Sonic tends to only visit a place once on his world travels without a good reason to go back somewhere. Classic Sonic gets plucked straight out of the Green Hill Zone mid-run, so to answer the question of what version of Classic Sonic we're playing as: it's the one from Sonic 1 yanked straight out of Green Hill Zone Act 1, right at the very beginning.

And if you were in any doubt, look at the way he occasionally botches the Spin Dash*; he hasn't quite mastered the skill yet even though it's close - and it would make sense that Sonic doesn't use skills in combat that he hasn't perfected yet. Probably his older self being present makes him more confident in trying his more novel ideas of the time, such as the Insta-Shield/Twin Spin Attack and eventually the Homing Attack, but just for Generations.

*Every so often a quick-revved rushed Spin Dash will glide limply along with no power behind it, i.e. it fails. This kept happening to me when I first started playing until I got the hang of preventing it; it happens if you only rev up once and let go immediately, which in Sonic 2 and beyond works perfectly. Consequently you have to get used to spam-revving constantly... and also the fact that you can rev midrun Adventure-style. There's some retconning going on here, that's for sure.

[Chaos Fusion]

what about the eggmans? Say they were able to get out of the white limbo (The door they mentioned was found and they got out), Classic Eggman claims thats he's going to dedicate his life to forgetting the plan. Unless that was just the gag, doesn't mean that the events of Generations will never happen meaning that Classic and modern never met due to Eggman never starting the plan? iunno, time travel always creates questions. Also, for modern characters remembering stuff, it could be like Doctor Who how characters can remember things like erased time events, time paradoxes and history being rewritten.

Edit: ^ Sonic 2006. Sonic and Elise can barely remember each other.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Chaos Fusion

[Marcello]

what about the eggmans? Say they were able to get out of the white limbo (The door they mentioned was found and they got out), Classic Eggman claims thats he's going to dedicate his life to forgetting the plan. Unless that was just the gag, doesn't mean that the events of Generations will never happen meaning that Classic and modern never met due to Eggman never starting the plan? iunno. Also, for modern characters remembering stuff, it could be like Doctor Who how characters can remember things like erased time events, time paradoxes and history being rewritten.

More like, he forgets about this adventure and eventually has the same exact plan, because he forgot it failed.

[Winston]

what about the eggmans? Say they were able to get out of the white limbo (The door they mentioned was found and they got out), Classic Eggman claims thats he's going to dedicate his life to forgetting the plan. Unless that was just the gag, doesn't mean that the events of Generations will never happen meaning that Classic and modern never met due to Eggman never starting the plan? iunno. Also, for modern characters remembering stuff, it could be like Doctor Who how characters can remember things like erased time events, time paradoxes and history being rewritten.

It was probably some gag they said at the end, it's nothing to take seriously. Their not going to make Eggman a teacher....are they?

Edited November 13, 2011 by Future-Hedgehog

[Koopalmier]

I don't understand any of these issues.

Classic Sonic and Tails knowing of the future: They only saw random locations, nothing that'd stay on their mnd for long. Plus they don't know what ARE these locations related to. And it's assumed a few years separate Classic from Modern, so they must've had time to forget until then.

Classic Sonic and Tails being from before Sonic 1 or after S3&K: I'd say they're from after S3&K. Sonic met Tails right before Sonic 2, remember ?

Only stuff was "fixed" there. Sonic's constantly positive attitude against Eggman, even when he was about to die in SA2 ? He got it since his future self told him he always beats Eggman, no matter what. The Homming Attack ? Classic learnt it in Gen. The Boost ? Classic was fascinated by it in Gen, and would manage to learn it years later. Classic Eggman specifically said he'd dedicate his life forgetting these events - which will eventually turn into Modern Eggman launching this plan without remembering it'll fail.

As for the Sonics not meeting their respective selves: the levels aren't happening at the same time as their respective game, for most of them. Green Hill happens post-S3&K for obvious reasons. Chemical Plant happens after Sonic 2, as it's having a meltdown after being abandoned. Sky Sanctuary DOES happen during S3&K, as the Death Egg is being lifted. Speed Highway obviously happens during Adventure too, Station Square is still there, but note that it seems to be a bit earlier than in Adventure. City Escape likely happens right before SA2, they haven't catched Sonic yet and are doing everything they can to do so. We don't know when does Seaside Hill happen, but the cars have been reworked to be more simple so it may happen after Heroes. Crisis City is in the FUTURE of an ANCIENT TIMELINE, but if you really want to know when it happens, well, Iblis hasn't been killed in the future yet. Rooftop Run happens after Unleashed, the world is celebrating Sonic's victory. Planet Wisp happens during Colors but before Sonic got to that zone, some Wisps are back to their planet but the chain to the attraction park's still there.

So in all these, their respective Sonic is either having another adventure, running around on another section of the level to fight Mecha Sonic, not there yet, running somewhere else, having another adventure after having complainined the Seaside Hill cars aren't practical, in the pasr, on another continent eating chilli dogs, or in Starlight Carnival fucking up Eggman's stuff.

EDIT: You could point out that considering Classic Knuckles and Amy aren't in the game, Sonic may have not met them yet.

Um. Classic Metal and Amy appeared in the same game, and only Metal appears there. You are a hedgehog, your argument is invalid.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Koopalmier

[-Mark-]

You know, were it not for the fact the game is almost a direct follow-on from Colours, I'd almost try and argue that the game isn't canon. It screws so much around, and the very concept of having both Classic and Modern Sonic coexisting in the same game destroys the fourth wall beyond all belief as it is.

I mean, 'Modern Sonic' was a design change. I don't think (prior to this game) we were ever supposed to genuinely believe that Classic Sonic ever 'became' Modern Sonic at all. Even if you try and argue that Classic Sonic is simply younger, that doesn't really warrant such a change. Yeah, getting taller and perhaps the darker blue can be justified, but unless the entire cast are wearing contact lenses, you don't just grow an eye colour during puberty.

Also, another reason the 'Classic = characters when they're younger' theory doesn't really hold any water? Look at Eggman. Classic Sonic to Modern Sonic might just about be believable (green eyes notwithstanding), but Eggman's already an adult, probably at least in his fifties. There's no way he'd change so much over a few years. The very concept of 'Classic' and 'Modern' designs basically exists beyond the fourth wall, which they've tried to integrate within its boundaries.

Long story short, it's a massive, canon-breaking headache.

[Winston]

You know, were it not for the fact the game is almost a direct follow-on from Colours, I'd almost try and argue that the game isn't canon. It screws so much around, and the very concept of having both Classic and Modern Sonic coexisting in the same game destroys the fourth wall beyond all belief as it is.

I mean, 'Modern Sonic' was a design change. I don't think (prior to this game) we were ever supposed to genuinely believe that Classic Sonic ever 'became' Modern Sonic at all. Even if you try and argue that Classic Sonic is simply younger, that doesn't really warrant such a change. Yeah, getting taller and perhaps the darker blue can be justified, but unless the entire cast are wearing contact lenses, you don't just grow an eye colour during puberty.

Also, another reason the 'Classic = characters when they're younger' theory doesn't really hold any water? Look at Eggman. Classic Sonic to Modern Sonic might just about be believable (green eyes notwithstanding), but Eggman's already an adult, probably at least in his fifties. There's no way he'd change so much over a few years. The very concept of 'Classic' and 'Modern' designs basically exists beyond the fourth wall, which they've tried to integrate within its boundaries.

Long story short, it's a massive, canon-breaking headache.

[Marcello]

Classic Sonic and Tails knowing of the future: They only saw random locations, nothing that'd stay on their mnd for long. Plus they don't know what ARE these locations related to. And it's assumed a few years separate Classic from Modern, so they must've had time to forget until then.

Edited November 13, 2011 by MarcelloF

[Winston]

But it hasn't been 20 years in the game. Unless Sonic was -5 years old in Sonic 1.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Future-Hedgehog

[Toby]

I'm in the camp that honestly believes more thought is being put into Generations here than it got at Sonic Team. It's just a silly little game with a silly little story that'll never be relevant to anything ever again anyway.

[HUNTER297]

Actually this game puts new light in 06 issue. It was erased but it still exist at some point in time. Second thing is that maybe Sonic and friends DO remember these events? But then again what about Rush and Rivals canonity? They are canon for sure.

Oh and Classics doesnt know about future events. He just saw some random places and Modern told him that "Beating him [EGGMAN] is like our job or something". This and he saw some of his friends. You think why Modern fought all DC and Modern Era Bosses? To avoid things like that.

[-Mark-]

Classic Eggman could've changed, it's been twenty years since Sonic 1, he could've been in his 30's. My grandparents look nothing the same from when they were in their 20's/30's.

Classic Eggman is already bald. It's very, very rare for someone to be completely bald in their 30s, suggesting he was at least meant to have been in his 50s already.

Also, people tend not to grow any (or at least much) taller after they hit their twenties. You honestly mean to tell me Eggman grew and generally changed that much? Even if we assume 20 years have passed since Sonic 1 (which is impossible in itself), that's a stretch (pun not intended).

[SilentDoom]

Meh, at this point following the continuity of a Sonic game is almost as difficult as following the continuity of a Zelda game. Just gotta kind of accept it after a while.

[Winston]

Classic Eggman is already bald. It's very, very rare for someone to be completely bald in their 30s, suggesting he was at least meant to have been in his 50s already.

Also, people tend not to grow any (or at least much) taller after they hit their twenties. You honestly mean to tell me Eggman grew and generally changed that much? Even if we assume 20 years have passed since Sonic 1 (which is impossible in itself), that's a stretch (pun not intended).

Edited November 13, 2011 by Future-Hedgehog

[bigthecat]

what about the eggmans? Say they were able to get out of the white limbo (The door they mentioned was found and they got out), Classic Eggman claims thats he's going to dedicate his life to forgetting the plan. Unless that was just the gag, doesn't mean that the events of Generations will never happen meaning that Classic and modern never met due to Eggman never starting the plan? iunno, time travel always creates questions. Also, for modern characters remembering stuff, it could be like Doctor Who how characters can remember things like erased time events, time paradoxes and history being rewritten.

Edit: ^ Sonic 2006. Sonic and Elise can barely remember each other.

[Scar]

A Sonic game will probably never be written so that the gameplay and stages fit around the story. It will always be the other way around, and as such story will naturally contain odd moments and plot holes that don't add up. Its pretty tough going for writers to patch up the horrifying mess of a plot that was 06, without it sounding like a fanfiction or something.

Blaze being shoehorned into 06 was the team who was developing that game's fault and now the writers have to deal with that massive plot-canyon.

[Milo]

*sigh* At this point, Sonic Team should STOP trying to tie around Sonic games together or incorporate time-travel in their games, because everytime they do, they usually screw something up in the already established storyline.

Sonic 06: Silver, Blaze, Chaos Emeralds, time retcon at the end....enough has been said.

Sonic 4: Classic Sonic suddenly grew taller legs and quills, gained green irises, and got a smaller belly within the span of what....0.0000000 seconds (immediately after S3&K)? Not to mention the great backstory the PR came up with on the website: "As Knuckles finishes his showdown with Mecha Sonic (who has used the Master Emerald to transform into Super Mecha Sonic), the real hedgehog chases Eggman through space (who is fleeing with the Master Emerald). The hell?

Sonic Generations: Pretty much all of what's wrong is covered here by the rest of you.

Edited November 13, 2011 by ModernHentaiQuillFanPhase2