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Read a really fascinating analysis of the theming in MGS3 on GAF, I thought it'd be worth sharing with you guys. wink.png

 

 *snip*

 

 

MGS3 really is a much smarter game than people give it credit for, which is sad.

 

You know, I've played through MGS 3 about four times now, and that analysis has just taken everything I thought I knew about the game and well... took it further.

 

I knew about the whole goofy, campy action movie thing beforehand. It made sense, and fit in with Naked Snake's naivety, but most of all, it was obvious. That's the main reason I love the game, really. When the guy mentioned about the 'veil', we'll call it, being removed, it clicked. I didn't need to read the rest (I did though). So much of The Boss' dialogue makes buckets more sense now that I'm keeping that in mind ("he's still just a child"(?) and all that).

 

The whole segment on Big Boss' folly in trying to create a neutral force in Outer Heaven really was intriguing too. It's fascinating to consider that Big Boss' actions after Snake Eater really can be loosely compared to (watch out: layman's metaphor here) a guy being cheated on by his girlfriend, who then vows to never get hurt again by treating women like garbage. This also makes a lot of the talk about The Boss in Peace Walker make sense; I, too, was pretty distraught that she was dead, but I didn't get why Big Boss was so unwilling to let go. That's something else that's clicked into place.

 

It seems that I've been looking at MGS on too narrow of a scope, focusing on  on sections of games, characters' actions and the effects of those actions. If anything, I need to go back a look at the motivations for those actions, and how characters (and the tone) develop throughout whole games as that seems to be where Kojima's writing skill lies.

 

Thanks for sharing Discoid.

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Big Boss was very much the typical villain in Metal Gear & Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake. No back story and pretty forgettable. I think Kojima is having a lot of fun in writing about the young skilled soldier who becomes one of the most dangerous terrorists the world has ever seen. So much so that they needed his cloned son to go and kill him three times twice.

 

MGS3 is brilliantly written. I fell in love with Big Boss & Ocelot when they first met in the Virtuous mission.

 

This is my favourite MGS cut-scene hands down. Ocelot looks so cool taking out the soldiers and then Snake humiliates him, which results in Ocelot idolising Big Boss...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItvclICnwgI

 

Knowing what Big Boss will become has given Kojima plenty of room to be creative and daring. Just look at how Snake loses his right eye. First the Boss is nearly forced to cut out Snake's left eye, then Ocelot accidentally shoots Snake's right eye. Such a cleverly written scene which is almost more disturbing than watching Volgin torture Snake. 

 

Snake is a broken man at the end of MGS3, and he finally gets over the Boss at the end of Peace Walker. But we can't keep Big Boss in a happy place for too long, hence the events of Ground Zeroes. Which leads to BB waking up after a 9 year coma (Snake will be about 49 years old) thirsting for revenge (along with poor Kaz Miller who's been maimed even worse than Big Boss). The Phantom Pain's theme is revenge and being traumatized. We know there will be less cutscenes in TPP (compared to previous games) in favour of pure game story telling. I'm incredibly curious as to how the events will shape Big Boss into the so called bad guy. I just can't think of him as a bad guy. He will always be a hero in my eyes. 

 

 

Sssshhhh, that game doesn't exist.

 

 

Peace Walker should have been MGS4, developed for PS3 and not PSP.

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As much as you guys hate MGS4, MGRR wouldn't exist without it and I don't want MGRR to not exist.

MGS4 set out what it came to do which was finish a storyline. maybe you don't get a deep phychological meaning behind 4 but at least you get closure. I wanted MGS to end because I didn't want Solid Snake's arc run into the ground with countless sequals which most likely would've happened, now that this story has a finish line we can work backward and fill in the gaps that were left then maybe we can let this story rest and let kojima do other stuff as a main focus.

Now that MGS is over storyline wise we got 3 paths ahead of us post-MGS4:

1) Continue with MGRR as a main series game and let MGS and its gameplay rest for awhile at least when it comes to the present setting. I wouldn't mind that but I'm sure people would riot if they didn't get a tri-yearly MGS installment.

2) Start with a new character, storyline, and threat post-MGS4. would be nice to get away from all this and start fresh, even with MGRR the storyline of MGS still lingers around.

3) Retcon all of MG/MGS after MGS5 and start a new alternate universe for MGS. but this seems crazy just to keep doing more MG games with Big Boss/Solid Snake.

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After playing MGS2 I gotta admit that the raiden in MGR (and the one from MGS4 from cutscenes ive watched of it) are like completely different people, what the heck happened to him to turn him from that into the coolest cyborg ninja ever.

 

(and you better not say nanomachines or I swear on me mum).

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After playing MGS2 I gotta admit that the raiden in MGR (and the one from MGS4 from cutscenes ive watched of it) are like completely different people, what the heck happened to him to turn him from that into the coolest cyborg ninja ever.

 

(and you better not say nanomachines or I swear on me mum).

Caught by the Patriots and was made a cyborg guinna pig leaving him with half a skull (not even a jaw, damn thats cold). then found out his wife was "married" to an old man and went to mope around the world.

Seriously Raiden is a pretty smart guy but I can't believe he never caught on to the fact that Rose and Roy were just faking it all.

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You gotta admit that it's pretty depressing when you're told you can shape your own future, only to be turned into a guinea pig, removed of everything except your upper FACE and brain with your spinal cord still attached, despite wanting a family. Then, in the end, your girlfriend dumps you and went with some older guy with all the money while saying she aborted the pregnancy before he lost his body, therefore having no chance of children anymore and instead turned into a living weapon where your only purpose is to kill or be a failure where they simply move onto the next child soldier project.

 

What Raiden is in MGR is who he is, but also what they made him into which is a killer. Raiden saved all those brains because he didn't want those kids turning into what he was and have no life, it was also why it was a big deal to save the whole of George's lower half after slicing him open so he could have kids if he wanted to in the future.

 

I wouldn't call it moping as it was 'embracing what they wanted you to become because you can't escape it anyway'. He never got what he wanted in life while not spoiling anything for MGS4 for those who never played it. That whole game is one big tragedy and should be experienced rather than told about.

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Yeah, at some point I do plan on playing through but MGS3 and 4, thanks for the answers.

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Yeah, at some point I do plan on playing through but MGS3 and 4, thanks for the answers.

Before continuing on, I'd recommend taking some time to look a bit at the analyses from MGS2. There's a video on YouTube I'd highly recommend called "Critical Close-Up: MGS2". It's 35 minutes long, but trust me, it's very much worth watching. Almost "required watching" after MGS2 IMO, lol.

Also, word of advice - if you do enjoy the analyses of MGS2 and appreciate or respect the themes and core messages of the game, go into MGS4 expecting hot garbage. It's literally the antithesis to what made MGS narrative so powerful in the first three games, almost to the point of self-parody.

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Before continuing on, I'd recommend taking some time to look a bit at the analyses from MGS2. There's a video on YouTube I'd highly recommend called "Critical Close-Up: MGS2". It's 35 minutes long, but trust me, it's very much worth watching. Almost "required watching" after MGS2 IMO, lol.

Also, word of advice - if you do enjoy the analyses of MGS2 and appreciate or respect the themes and core messages of the game, go into MGS4 expecting hot garbage. It's literally the antithesis to what made MGS narrative so powerful in the first three games, almost to the point of self-parody.

Okay then, and wow is MGS4 really that bad narrative wise?

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Okay then, and wow is MGS4 really that bad narrative wise?

Here you go. Please post your thoughts afterwards, I'd love to see your thoughts. :)

MGS4 suffers from a lot of fundamental, extremely rudimentary storytelling flaws. The script is extremely poorly written, with laughable amounts of exposition explaining each and every facet of what is happening - to say nothing of the fact that all of these explanations are exceedingly mundane. Everything is nanomachines. Fucking everything is nanomachines. Remember how cool and creepy Psycho Mantis was in MGS1? There's an expy of him in MGS4 who controls people using nanomachines. Wasn't Vamp really interesting in MGS2? Did you notice the water theme that's always there in almost every single one of his scenes? Did you see that he comes back to life three times, but only after coming into contact with water? Yeah, that's gone now. Nanomachines give him his powers. Have you ever wondered why Johnny Sasaki always shits his pants in every game (he's the guy holding you prisoner in MGS1 who runs to the bathroom)? No? Too bad, it's because of nanomachines. No, I'm not joking.

"Revelation" cutscenes play out like PowerPoint presentations, with the most jarring being the one where you find out who the Patriots are. You're "treated" to about an hour of someone talking (sounds a bit more like reading a Wikipedia article) while watching pictures slide around.

Besides that, the game is thematically an outright insult to what came before it. Where the main themes of MGS1 and MGS2 teach us to take control of our lives fight for our beliefs, MGS4 shows us a future where none of that matters. Remember that awe inspiring speech from Snake at the end of MGS2 about passing on life to the next generation, and shaping our own future without being chained to the past? Didn't mean much in the end. He failed. Everyone did. The Raiden who threw away the outside influence of the player and chose for the first time in his life to truly shape his future is later revealed to have completely let himself go shortly after MGS2 for no reason whatsoever. Snake and Otacon's "Philanthropy" group has been shit down, and the Patriots have taken over. Snake is a broken, bitter old man. Raiden is broken and bitter. Otacon is broken and bitter.

The game goes out of its way to answer questions that never needed an explanation, and which benefit from being left open to interpretation. Do we need to specifically be told why Liquid's arm somehow contains his psyche in MGS2? No. Do we need to be specifically told why Vamp is the way he is? No. Did they have to name drop each and every one of the Patriots? No.

One thing you may not notice in MGS3 is that it subtly hints at answers like these while still leaving it up for discussion and interpretation. It's interesting, and I'd be happy to talk about it once you play it.

Any more and I'll delve into spoilers, so I'll stop there.

But yes, MGS4 is trash. If you truly appreciate MGS2, you will not like MGS4.

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Just watched the whole critical close up and wow, I gotta admit I didn't even realize a lot of that during the game. Honestly now that I look back on it alot of the things said in the close up make a lot of sense from the fact that the whole tanker chapter could just be a VR mission to the fact that the game prior to release (and even after) made it seem like snake would be the main character through it all, it also kind of opens my eyes up a bit to social media and the like and while its probably not 100% true its definitely something to take into consideration when looking at it today. Thanks for linking me these Discoid.

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Just watched the whole critical close up and wow, I gotta admit I didn't even realize a lot of that during the game. Honestly now that I look back on it alot of the things said in the close up make a lot of sense from the fact that the whole tanker chapter could just be a VR mission to the fact that the game prior to release (and even after) made it seem like snake would be the main character through it all, it also kind of opens my eyes up a bit to social media and the like and while its probably not 100% true its definitely something to take into consideration when looking at it today. Thanks for linking me these Discoid.

Spot on with the social media comparison. Isn't it crazy, though? Social media, the NSA, the controversy of the surveillance state... these are all issues that MGS2 thematically sheds light on, even fifteen years later. The messages being given are culturally relevant so long after release that it's quite frankly incredible.

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I prefer this for MGS2 analysing in both game and story elements:

 

 

Also, don't tell people what and what not to expect from MGS4 when they haven't even played it. Let him make up his own mind rather than throwing the "it's garbage" opinion in when that's already a fairly strong negative opinion.

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At least going in with low expectations can allow it to be a pleasant surprise. Finishing the game left me extremely frustrated after I went in expecting as good of a game as the three masterpieces that preceded it.

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I wouldn't call it moping as it was 'embracing what they wanted you to become because you can't escape it anyway'. He never got what he wanted in life while not spoiling anything for MGS4 for those who never played it. That whole game is one big tragedy and should be experienced rather than told about.

Chill, I was just being alittle tounge-in-cheek about it but I understand what Raiden went through. I know if he was in a clearer mindset though he would've seen the flaws in that "relationship" they set up.

Also, don't tell people what and what not to expect from MGS4 when they haven't even played it. Let him make up his own mind rather than throwing the "it's garbage" opinion in when that's already a fairly strong negative opinion.

This basically. Dis' you've really got to let people experence the games for themselves and make up their own minds about MGS4. I personally don't find MGS4 to be the worst thing since Metal Gear: Snakes Revenge or that MGS2's story is that deep as everyone makes it out to be (I'll admit though that theirs some things I do look at differently now), doesn't make my opinion anymore right or wrong then anyone elses. analysis videos at the end of the day are just really well detailed opinions, until Kojima himself tells us what each scene meant were left to just guessing it.

I don't think Kojima wanted to go deep and make you open your eyes with MGS4 like he did with MGS2, I really do believe that MGS4's story was just to finish the story it set up. people wanted closure, he gave them closure and reguardless how you feel about it the storys closed and this is what MGS5 is leading to.

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Well of course he's free to make up his mind about the game. I'm just telling him that he's very unlikely to have much love for MGS4 if he cared at all for MGS2's theming, which is more or less true. I find it's very rare to see someone who loves both MGS2 and MGS4 equally - the two games are practically foils to each other.

 

-

 

Edit - Another thing to consider, Megasonic; in the analysis video, the uploader goes into the implications within the game that MGS1 is a VR mission. There are many things hinting at this. For starters, there's the obvious footage of MGS1 being played when Raiden mentions VR training. Beyond that, however, you have - 

 

  • Raiden boasting about having completed over 300 VR Missions
  • When talking to Snake about weapons, he gives you pretty generic tutorial information on how to use them. When talking about the NIKITA he says "unlike VR, you don't get a bird's eye view". When using the NIKITA in MGS1, you get a bird's eye view.
  • Raiden's role as an avatar for the player established through Rose, his idolization of Snake, and his lack of a backstory and character baggage until late in the game.

Through these hints one can come to the conclusion that the game we played, MGS1, was actually seen through Raiden's eyes as VR training. MGS2 retroactively made MGS1 non-canon.

 

... Until MGS4, of course, which ruined everything. Sigh.

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MGS4 is pretty much a love letter to fans with some returning characters. The story barely makes any sense and the cutscenes - much like MGS2's - send you to sleep. The briefing sections drag on for an eternity, and it's hard to feel anything for the main characters with the exception of Liquid Ocelot and Snake. The gameplay is hardly revolutionary. The main pull of MGS4's gameplay is the fighting factions; PMC soldiers vs Rebels, and that only lasts for two of the five acts! So by the time I reach Act 3 I've lost interest. Yes it has nice music, decent boss battles and pretty graphics, but it's not enough. It's okay for the odd playthrough, but for a series that encourages replay value this falls well short. The lack of codec conversations AND people to contact (Rose is absolutely pointless and you can't even contact Colonel Campbell) is so disappointing compared to the - entertaining - endless dialogue you get over the codec in MGS1, 2 and 3. 

 

Funnily enough I think MGSV: The Phantom Pain is going to cover a lot of issues which will help the story of MGS4 make a bit more sense. I'm not saying MGS4 shouldn't have been made, just not yet. TPP will bring us full circle.They should have waited until then to round off the series with the 'Guns of the Patriots' plot. They could have done a game where you play as Raiden as he rescues Sunny from the Patriots - prior to the events of MGS4, which I believe the cancelled game, Metal Gear Solid: Rising would have covered.

 

MGS4 isn't a bad game, it just doesn't really make sense and lacks replay value.

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Well, its pretty cheap at gamestop so even if I don't like it so much it wouldn't be that big a deal.

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Chill, I was just being alittle tounge-in-cheek about it but I understand what Raiden went through. I know if he was in a clearer mindset though he would've seen the flaws in that "relationship" they set up.

 

Oh! I'm sorry if it sounded a little aggressive, it wasn't meant to. Just didn't want the guy to think Raiden had pulled a Shadow the Hedgehog with all that brooding.

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Just had to post this. 

 

Japanese YouTuber EV niconico has used Grand Theft Auto 5 to remake Hideo Kojima's stunning nine minute red band E3 trailer for Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain.

 

It's very well done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thought I would also post some of my best S ranks for Ground Zeroes.

 

Normal mode: Ground Zeroes mission

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Normal mode: Deja-Vu mission

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Hard mode: Ground Zeroes mission

OtHYrPm.png
 

 

Hard mode: Deja-Vu mission

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Well I got MGS 3 through the mail today and man did it freak me out when "raiden" turned out to be the hero again (which was quickly debunked by the game), but moving on the game is pretty good so far (though I was seen two times and died once already :P) but I think I could get used to it, honestly the thing I like most about it already is the fact that it has a camera that actually lets you see in front of you now (subsistence version) and the graphics look pretty stunning too but I have one question. The copy that I got only had one disk and the game is supposed to have two right? Is there anything important im missing without the second disk since I still have time to return it and get another copy.

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Let him make up his own mind rather than throwing the "it's garbage" opinion in when that's already a fairly strong negative opinion.

 

It's also a fairly correct assessment of an absolute mess of a game, continuity issues aside. Aside from the REX section, the final boss, and the microwave hallway, I'm hard pressed to think of a plotline that's not a showcase of everything wrong with MGS writing. I can't think of a character I liked more because of MGS4, I only came to hate a sizeable portion of the cast for their melodrama and idiocy. And any goodwill I had going in was oblitherated by that abhorent mess of an ending.

 

These things aren't just the grievances of a begrudged fan, they're things any person who likes a good narrative ought to know heading in. A man is not an island unto himself, and it would be just as dishonest to remove a player from the thoughts of his fellow gamers as it would be to force those opinions on them. You're not purifying the experience by muting people, you're only removing an integral part of community, and a potential warning of a waste of great time. If Discoid wishes to tell a prospective player the game is bad, let him. The player is a thinking human being, and can use that knowledge as they so wish.

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Well I got MGS 3 through the mail today and man did it freak me out when "raiden" turned out to be the hero again (which was quickly debunked by the game), but moving on the game is pretty good so far (though I was seen two times and died once already tongue.png) but I think I could get used to it, honestly the thing I like most about it already is the fact that it has a camera that actually lets you see in front of you now (subsistence version) and the graphics look pretty stunning too but I have one question. The copy that I got only had one disk and the game is supposed to have two right? Is there anything important im missing without the second disk since I still have time to return it and get another copy.

 

The original PS2 version of MGS3: Subsistence actually had 3 discs.

 

Disc 1 had the main game.

 

Disc 2 had:

 

- the original MSX games; Metal Gear & Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake.

- Boss Rush mode: Where you could earn a DPM outfit to use in the main game. If you wear it your life heals more quickly.

- It had a 'Snake vs The Monkey' mini-game where you could earn a Banana outfit, which makes all food taste good.

- You got a 'secret demo theatre' where the developers of MGS3 had a lot of fun messing around with the cutscenes, taking the mickey out of the games characters.

- It also had the Metal Gear Online feature. 

 

Disc 3: had the 2005 E3 MGS4 trailer, and the 'MGS3 movie' where you could sit back and watch all the cutscenes (which includes a bit of demo gameplay).

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The original PS2 version of MGS3: Subsistence actually had 3 discs.

 

Disc 1 had the main game.

 

Disc 2 had:

 

- the original MSX games; Metal Gear & Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake.

- Boss Rush mode: Where you could earn a DPM outfit to use in the main game. If you wear it your life heals more quickly.

- It had a 'Snake vs The Monkey' mini-game where you could earn a Banana outfit, which makes all food taste good.

- You got a 'secret demo theatre' where the developers of MGS3 had a lot of fun messing around with the cutscenes, taking the mickey out of the games characters.

- It also had the Metal Gear Online feature. 

 

Disc 3: had the 2005 E3 MGS4 trailer, and the 'MGS3 movie' where you could sit back and watch all the cutscenes (which includes bit of demo gameplay).

Ahh okay thanks so its basically all of the extra modes then, yeah I think I might get another copy, thanks for the answer. 

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Minor Ground Zeroes spoilers ahead.

 

So I've been recently made aware of a controversy that's emerged around Ground Zeroes.  Basically, there's an unlockable tape recording you acquire by saving a prisoner in the main mission with very disturbing content.

 

 

Now, I for one believe that if video games are to be taken seriously, they need to be able to explore themes like this.  And MGS has never held itself back when it has come to themes of torture, so why should it stop short here?  But the backlash against this scene for does seem to have some understandable reasons, if not valid ones.

 

The objection that seems to be at the forefront is that this was a collectable item- a reward for exploring and completing an optional sidequest.  That the circumstance by which you discover this terrible event almost by nature makes light of it.

 

I'm sort of on the edge about this because I am a big supporter for environmental storytelling in games.  That appears to have been what Kojima was striving for in this game- Snake comes in after the fact and you get to uncover the full story of what happened for yourself.  That's what made games like Dark Souls and Metroid Prime so interesting and elegantly crafted- everything is as you find it.  You are the free agent in this world, so you are the one who puts together the missing pieces.

 

And not to mention that "reward" is definitely a loaded word here.  We associate it with the Pavlovian definition, but in some sense, all story in games is reward; you could even call the scene of Snake being tortured in MGS3 a "reward" for making it that far into the game.

 

On the other hand, the way it's presented makes it feel rather... voyeuristic.  Let's not forget that Paz was, just one game ago, part of some bizarre, out of place sexual humor.  Easter eggs and collectables kind of have this association of being for shits n' giggles in Metal Gear games.  For all Kojima talked about making MGSV a more mature story, it's hard to tell that his intentions are pure yet.  He's written stories with evocative themes since the beginning, but that hasn't stopped him from creating paragons of sexual subtlety like the Beauty and the Beast Unit.

 

I understand that Kojima is capable of playing things straight when he needs to, but what creates the concern for me here is that for all the trauma Paz endures in this scene, she plays a remarkably small role in the plot beyond someone you're supposed to rescue.  They don't really leave an opportunity to see the effect this trauma has on her to any meaningful extent; she's simply a casualty.  In some sense it seems more like it was used as a narrative device to further Skullface's identity as a villain than Paz's identity as a victim.  Of course, Chico was also a victim in this scenario and we'll likely get to see how he chooses to live with it in the events of the Phantom Pain.

 

Your thoughts?

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