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Why Sonic shouldn't listen to his fans.


Blacklightning

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Now that I have your attention...

Hello there again, fans, pessimists and all those likeable fuckers in between. It's been a long time since I wrote up a rant of this kind. And by "this kind", I mean the kind that gets typed up purely on a fuckin' frustration-fueled whim in the space of less than half a day using no sources but my bloody memory capacity in more or less a vauge response to some random stupid guy who made the stupid mistake of posting something stupid and stupidly assuming he wouldn't get a stupidly massive response to spend the entire afternoon attempting to swallow... in a stupid fashion.

In any case, it's the kind of crap that I see thrown around the place far too often to tolerate, so I thought I'd save myself the future trouble of having to retype my arguments every single time it crops up and just dump everything into one fucking massive post. Given that I'm bloody tired and might've missed out on some details, as well as taking into account the long term intentions of the rant, this might be one of the few writings of mine I might actually update over time for relevancy. Oh, and for those who don't like big, long columns of text, I made a summary if you just want the jist of it for a change.

Just as a present for those who can't stand my tl;dr mongering, I'll give you guys a short version. Here's four reasons why Sega/Sonic Team shouldn't listen to you:

1. Fanservice alone doesn't improve the quality of an already crap game.

2. Sonic Team has a habit of twisting fan demand into unusual and nonsensical directions - a trend which should've been obvious the moment Shadow was resurrected.

3. Nowadays there is a massive gap between nostalgia-themed games and entries designed with modern intentions, making it completely impossible to make a universally acceptable game based off your word alone.

4. Because you're most likely a complete moron with no game design experience of any kind and no understanding of the possible repercussions your actions would have on the franchise.

Get it? Good. If I seem overly blunt about it, you should realize there's good reason for it - this crap has gone on for TEN YEARS almost uncontested whilst fanboys prance under the hideously mistaken delusion that they somehow know better than Sega AND Sonic Team with absolutely nothing to show for it. To say I'm absolutely sick of it would be a fuckin' understatement.

The full thing is on my crappy blog page if you feel brave enough. Enjoy what's there, and let the bitching debating begin! :lol:

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4. Because you're most likely a complete moron with no game design experience of any kind and no understanding of the possible repercussions your actions would have on the franchise.

I know this isn't directed t anyone specifically, but I'd like to mention that I do consider what effect the things I desire would have.

Edit: One specific quote, said by one of the developers behind Gunstar Heroes, has stuck with me more than any other related to game design: "We just made the game we would want to play".

It seem to me that they need to hire some people who would actually want to play a good Sonic game.

Edited by Phos
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I know this isn't directed t anyone specifically, but I'd like to mention that I do consider what effect the things I desire would have.

We know you do, Phos. As much as anyone may disagree with you, atleast you consider the outcome most of the time. It's those who don't. And folks like Nicochi on DA are a perfect example. So don't call yourself out on something not pointed at you.

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Fanservice is a dangerous tool that should be used wisely. I don't think that Sonic Team shouldn't listen to their fans so much as learn to what extent they should. It's undeniable that the fanbase is split to an extraordinary degree and that is part of the problem with the fanservice. It's a vicious cycle that's becoming a road to nowhere:

  1. Sonic Team listens to contradicting fan reactions.
  2. Sonic Team tries to adhere to the fanbase's collective interests by compromising them or creating novel, sometimes farfetched, elements for the next game.
  3. New Sonic game is released and is met with increasingly poor reception.
  4. Repeat.
See where the problem is? It's bad enough that they're trying to listen to conflicting interests. They say that the key to failure is trying to please everyone. What's more, the developers are looking at the reception too superficially. They shouldn't only understand what's good and what's bad, but WHY they're good or bad.

Case in point: Shadow. Originally a great character in SA2, but due to his overwhelming fan reaction, they brought him back. But now what? He's just there with little direction or purpose now. Even if they decided not to leave well enough alone and brought him back, his current characterization, not to mention his own game, would be a hell of a lot better if Sonic Team understood that Shadow's popularity wasn't because he was badass angsty mofo but rather because he had a well developed background and relatable depth.

It's been argued whether or not video games are a form of art, but either way, the best games are usually those with a lot of thought and originality put into them. But Sonic Team doesn't seem to get that we're not the artists- they are. Don't get me wrong - it's fine to look at reception and apply it; in fact, that's an important part of the battle in game development, but it's all for naught if you don't analyze it or understand where these people are coming from. As important as that is, however, they need to think for themselves.

Edited by A Ham Sandwich
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Edit: One specific quote, said by one of the developers behind Gunstar Heroes, has stuck with me more than any other related to game design: "We just made the game we would want to play".

It seem to me that they need to hire some people who would actually want to play a good Sonic game.

Provided they knew how to code, I'm assuming, yes?

Either way, you can probably understand I'm a bit cautious of such a subject. It brings me over to the community project back over at Sonic Retro (which I have no doubt you're familiar with, having lurked the boards on occasion), where all of the fans had conflicting ideas of where exactly the game should've gone and ended up quickly dragging everything into a gigantic shithole. Perhaps an actual professional dev might be more careful about it, but it's a risk all the same.

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We know you do, Phos. As much as anyone may disagree with you, atleast you consider the outcome most of the time. It's those who don't. And folks like Nicochi on DA are a perfect example. So don't call yourself out on something not pointed at you.

Nicochi and Who? :blink:

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I'll agree with point #1 - including fan service in a game doesn't automatically make a good game. I love it when I hear some fans, specifically those primarily interested in the old cartoons/comics clamor on about how including continuity specific characters or fine tuning the game continuity to that of the aforementioned automatically adds up to a greater, better gaming experience. A game might have some great fanservice, but point is, if it doesn't also hold my interest beyond that with some innovative, interesting gameplay, really not much too it then I guess.

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Either way, you can probably understand I'm a bit cautious of such a subject. It brings me over to the community project back over at Sonic Retro (which I have no doubt you're familiar with, having lurked the boards on occasion), where all of the fans had conflicting ideas of where exactly the game should've gone and ended up quickly dragging everything into a gigantic shithole. Perhaps an actual professional dev might be more careful about it, but it's a risk all the same.

I think the problem was that there wasn't much organization present. The director (Who has notoriously bad people skills) would post unspecific pleas for people to contribute to the project, and kept telling people to make level tiles before the map had been drawn.

Nicochi and Who? :blink:

This guy

Someone posted a link to his Lava Reef Zone rant & picture, cue crappy thread.

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Nicochi and Who? :blink:

Nicochi is an arrogant, self-righteous, single-minded, good-for-nothing prick on deviantART who wastes his talent spouting his backwards views on the series while, at the same time, flaming and blocking ALL who disagree with him. In his insignificant world, his is the only opinion that matters, all others are beneath him.

In the rant Phos just mentioned, he took a potshot at me.

Edited by Ryan Brown
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Hello there again, fans, pessimists and all those likeable fuckers in between.
I resent the implication that these are part of the same continuum.

That said, I generally agree, especially with point 4. Seems like everyone and his mother has their own solution to "save Sonic". You've got the more optimistic fans, the kind of people inclined to create their own game ideas even when the series is fine, which in our case are exacerbated by the push for some idea that will "fix" the series. And then there's the pessimists, the long-time fans who cling to the old games with an almost insane fervor and shunning everything after a point somewhere in the range of SA to Heroes. The former seem to have no idea filtering, letting any idea that catches their fancy into their proposal and usually ending up with something more fanfic than game concept, and the latter have filters that are far too strict, too afraid to step outside of the boundaries the old games set, fearing that any change is the wrong change. No matter which "side" I look at, the vast majority seems to have no idea what they're doing and yet full conviction that they (and no one else) do. I like to think I'm above this, that I'm putting more good solid thought into it, but sometimes I wonder if that's just my ego, and that I'm as deluded as they seem to me...

I think one of the biggest problems is that there's no practical way to verify an idea. The average fan doesn't have the skill, time, or motivation to put their ideas into practice and actually see if they're viable, and if they do coincidentally show up in an official game, their failure can be blamed on the often shoddy implementation rather than the idea itself. So basically it all just runs in circles; everyone can (and will) write paragraph after paragraph about saving Sonic and how they know what's right and everyone else is wrong, but shouting at each other is about as far as they can take it; there's nowhere to build from there.

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Nicochi is an arrogant, self-righteous, single-minded, good-for-nothing prick on deviantART who wastes his talent spouting his backwards views on the series while, at the same time, flaming and blocking ALL who disagree with him. In his insignificant world, his is the only opinion that matters, all others are beneath him.

In the rant Phos just mentioned, he took a potshot at me.

Ahh, now I remember who he is, the guy may be a douchebag/prick, but that picture of Lava Reef Zone was gorgeous.

Even then, how DARE he put a rant under a good drawing such as that, it not only makes seem the drawing as a tool of attention...but the rant is just him crying "bwaaaaa, I want old Sonic, bwaaaa". Ruins the mood of a good drawing.

"why do you think I'm trying to stay away from the Sonic fanbase like the black plague?"

Same reason, I would imagine, why I never registered on any Sonic board

I don't like idiots, and idiots don't like me

GEE I wonder why? :angry:

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I think one of the biggest problems is that there's no practical way to verify an idea. The average fan doesn't have the skill, time, or motivation to put their ideas into practice and actually see if they're viable, and if they do coincidentally show up in an official game, their failure can be blamed on the often shoddy implementation rather than the idea itself. So basically it all just runs in circles; everyone can (and will) write paragraph after paragraph about saving Sonic and how they know what's right and everyone else is wrong, but shouting at each other is about as far as they can take it; there's nowhere to build from there.
This.

I admit some concepts are in bad context or just an overall bad idea, but there are plenty in there that had great potential but were overlooked because they were in a bad game. Hell, there are even a couple that worked well but were dismissed with the rest of the gimmicks. I won't name names, but I try to look at it from a nonbiased standard: if this was used with the early games, would it have worked?

I like to think I'm above this, that I'm putting more good solid thought into it, but sometimes I wonder if that's just my ego, and that I'm as deluded as they seem to me...
The fact that you consider that automatically makes you above that.
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Ahh, now I remember who he is, the guy may be a douchebag/prick, but that picture of Lava Reef Zone was gorgeous.

Even then, how DARE he put a rant under a good drawing such as that, it not only makes seem the drawing as a tool of attention...but the rant is just him crying "bwaaaaa, I want old Sonic, bwaaaa". Ruins the mood of a good drawing.

GEE I wonder why? :angry:

Guess he doesn't like himself very much, then.

You see what I did there?

:lol:

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Yeah... he does do some awesome work on DA...but I can't stand him...

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I don't know about it being a bad thing to listen to the fans, after Sonic and The Black Knight came out, and people saw all the little hints to the fans, it was a more positive thing.

The fan Gallery, the original soundtrack from adventure and adventure 2 played when the characters tagged along, the ability to play Shadow and Knuckles as well as Sonic.

So I actually think they've been pretty wise about it as of late.

I think they learned that some fans are just too out there after they tried a human relationship with Sonic in 006. XD

About bringing Shadow back, I know a lot of fans are controversial about that.

But I actually liked they brought him back, he 'doesn't have anywhere to go' because he already saved the ARK, thus keeping his promise to Maria.

But that doesn't mean he has nowhere to go.

I know 006 sucked, but as far as Shadow's story, pretty bad@$$ in my opinion, the "putting the past behind me" thing won me over very much.

So even if he is back, he's not doing the same thing over and over.

Besides, no matter what if somebody dies people will want them back, take Cosmo for example.

And Knack is in nothing, and there are still people wanting him back.

So far as how Sonic fans can be.

Well, I've been on the boards for about 4 to 5 years, and there have been very weird situations believe me. XD

I suppose I can say from personal experience, that there are these types of Sonic Fans:

Old School Gamers who are never pleased with ANYTHING because it's new school. and no matter what you do, they will not be pleased.

New School Gamers who don't care at all, and will always like everything, even if Elise is kissing Sonic out of the blue, or that Mephiles looks like total recolor. lulz

Fans that aren't even fans and diss EVERYTHING about it simply because they're bored.

Voice actor haters.

Intelligent fans with interesting opinions, and are cool to listen too.

The problem is, most of the fans can't agree on anything at all, and only look on the negative points, and therefore, aren't acting like fans at all. =.

As for where I stand in the Sonic world, I'm an optimistic new school gamer, but I wouldn't say Sonic is perfect, no franchise is. ^^

Edited by Trixie The Fox
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Edit: Ninja'd

Guess he doesn't like himself very much, then.

You see what I did there?

:lol:

Not really, no.

Nicochi makes many good points, but he does so in such a way that's more off putting to the people he really should be trying to convince.

Edited by Phos
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I specifically think what Diogenes said is important. We, as the collective fanbase, couldn't come up with an even vaguely uniform idea of what we even generally want out of the series so if Sega tries to take in the feedback of the fans and add in what appeals to the mainstream and turn it into a game everyone will love-- which, while I've only played one game since Sonic Rush so I can't be sure, is what I suspect they've tried to do with some of the less popular recent titles-- they're just going to end up with a hideous mess that tries to cater to every fan's ideas of the series and keep to modern mainstream standards and is as a direct result unenjoyable.

Also, point 4 is another particularly important thing. It seems like half the time these "simple" ways to save the series are at least either implausible from a development standpoint in that they would be a pain in the ass to implement or that they wouldn't actually work in the game. And in the worse cases, the ideas simply wouldn't work in games released now because they're outdated or don't appeal to what the mainstream wants, and let's face it the mainstream which doesn't really visit fan sites and message boards is the actual majority of Sega's Sonic sales and we're really the vocal minority of more hardcore fans.

I think there is a middle ground between what appeals to the fans and what makes a game successful in the modern mainstream market but Sega just hasn't hit on the right balance yet. And from my observations as someone who hasn't played any of the post-Shadow the Hedgehog console games I personally think Sega's finally starting to get some of the right ideas.

Now before I go on I want to explain what I mean by the hardcore fanbase. I'm referring to the group of mainly older player that tends to hold the final good point in the series as being either Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, or (albeit less frequently) Sonic Heroes. This would be the group I fit into. In specific I found the end point for me was Sonic Adventure 2.

What I think would certainly help everyone is if the hardcore fanbase lowered their expectations somewhat. When Sonic Heroes came out I had astronomically high expectations for a game that I expected would be pretty much exactly like Sonic Adventure 2, and I was incredibly disappointed with the game. After renting it recently after a probably 3 or 4 year break from the series and coming into it with absolutely no expectations since I had been gone from the series for so long I was pleasantly surprised. It wasn't the classic games, it wasn't the most perfect game I've played, and it didn't stand up to my favorites from the series. However, it was fun on it's own merits. For those that are getting bored of my long-winded story I'll get to the point-- If the hardcore fanbase would try going into new games without expecting them to be the same as the classics and judged the game for what it was I think they'd find like I did that the newer games are much more palatable and maybe even come to like them. And don't get me wrong there, I don't expect everyone to like every game I'm sure a few just aren't that good either way you split it.

Anyway, I got kind of off on a tangent there I think but I was on a roll and my tangents ended up too integrated into the rest of the post to really prune them out in a timely manner. And of course, what do I know? I'm more than likely just a cranky hardcore pre-Heroes fan that's rambling incoherently, eh heh heh heh...

Whew, first massive post I've made in quite some time. Sorry for the wall of text, you lot. ;)

Edited by Cipher
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Edit: Ninja'd

Not really, no.

Nicochi makes many good points, but he does so in such a way that's more off putting to the people he really should be trying to convince.

He's not trying to "convince" anyone. He's just throwing his opinions out there and being a jerk about it.

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Guys, as much as I hate Nicochi and backseat modding, I'd rather we didn't glorify that little twat here. We already had a seperate thread for that somewhere else... whatever happened to it.

I resent the implication that these are part of the same continuum.
Oh don't give me that. I threw political correctness out of the window the moment I started ranting here, so you'd be doing yourself a favour if you took my insults less seriously. It's not like I'm singling anyone out here. :P

About bringing Shadow back, I know a lot of fans are controversial about that.

But I actually liked they brought him back, he 'doesn't have anywhere to go' because he already saved the ARK, thus keeping his promise to Maria.

But that doesn't mean he has nowhere to go.

I know 006 sucked, but as far as Shadow's story, pretty bad@$$ in my opinion, the "putting the past behind me" thing won me over very much.

So even if he is back, he's not doing the same thing over and over.

Besides, no matter what if somebody dies people will want them back, take Cosmo for example.

And Knack is in nothing, and there are still people wanting him back.

Now see, this is what I prefer to see more of in this fandom. I actually disagree with a lot of what you posted there to tell the truth, but I don't really have any problem with that because it's merely what you personally think about these matters, and you've made that quite clear to boot. Now if it were more along the lines of "RAWR YOU'RE WRONG BUT I'M NOT GOING TO BACK UP MY STATEMENTS WITH ANY EVIDENCE OR LOGIC", you can bet I'd have a big problem with that. XD

BTW, Nack was in Triple Trouble and Sonic the Fighters. I'd say that's enough to want a character's return, seeing as nearly every other scrapped character has had at least two game appearances.

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I think what the fans have to give to the series is exactly what they've already given the series. Look at the fangames. Now separating the competent game creators from the less skilled, we have a standard. Not counting those suffering from technical issues, how many truly great fangames are out there? Only a handful, I think. The rest of us are either too lazy, or maybe we don't really know what we're talking about. Like Diogenes, I like to think my ideas my are original and could bring the series forward. But I dunno until I've tried. Even in Sonic Team there were disagreements on the creative direction of the series, so it's obvious we all can't get what we want.

What Sonic Team's job is, is to discard any stupid ideas of ours if they're gonna use them at all. If they're taking cues from us and can't tell when we're wrong, they need to shape up.

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has stuck with me more than any other related to game design: "We just made the game we would want to play".

A wise friend whom I have gone through Uni with once said this to me:

"You can make the perfect game you want to play, just don't expect anyone else to play it."

While of course other like minded people will want to play it, there is the obvious fact that if it's built around yourself (or your group) you effectively design it to suit one (or a group) of people, not particularly profitable. Of course if you don't enjoy the game you make, you don't expect anyone else to.

I don't know about it being a bad thing to listen to the fans, after Sonic and The Black Knight came out, and people saw all the little hints to the fans, it was a more positive thing.

The fan Gallery, the original soundtrack from adventure and adventure 2 played when the characters tagged along, the ability to play Shadow and Knuckles as well as Sonic.

So I actually think they've been pretty wise about it as of late.

Personally I think that has to be the worse decision they've made in terms of fan service. Black Knight was gameplay wise aimed at the majority Wii audience, something denoted by the simplistic gameplay style, rather low difficulty and major focus on gimmicks. The game was certainly not aimed at the hardcore fanbase, and as such to add the fanservice sends a very conflicting message to whom the game is aimed at, non fans feel slightly alienated by the references, while fans simply bitch and moan at the game not being a 2D platformer or basically being the game they want.

Fanservice is a dangerous tool that should be used wisely. I don't think that Sonic Team shouldn't listen to their fans so much as learn to what extent they should.

...

See where the problem is? It's bad enough that they're trying to listen to conflicting interests. They say that the key to failure is trying to please everyone. What's more, the developers are looking at the reception too superficially. They shouldn't only understand what's good and what's bad, but WHY they're good or bad.

I've said it before, I'll say it again till I drum it into some people,

The sooner Sonic fans realise that they make up probably less than 10% of the sales of any Sonic game, the sooner they will realise why no game will ever be aimed at them again

Why should Sonic Team (or any company) try to appease to a fanbase when in the large scale of things it is completely irrelevant to the majority of their sales. I wouldn't say fan service is killing the franchise (Sonic Team also seem to have very little idea what to do themselves) but a better focus on their target audience is needed, and the fans should definitly not be that target audience if they want to profit, and they are a business, they need to profit.

I think what the fans have to give to the series is exactly what they've already given the series. Look at the fangames. Now separating the competent game creators from the less skilled, we have a standard. Not counting those suffering from technical issues, how many truly great fangames are out there?

This leads on from the previous point of "You can make the perfect game you want to play, just don't expect anyone else to play it." I think it was Tim Schafer who said, "If there is a game people want, it will be made." This I believe to be true, and it comes in the form of fan games. The mass of "make another 2D game exactly like Sonic 2/3" already have their fill from fangames, so why should Sonic Team bother to make a new 2D game? Simply there is no reason, nor any reason to make a game for that particular audience.

Sorry for the silly long post but I felt I should get some of my feelings out.

Baring in mind I am suppose to be a Game Designer (soon to be qualified as one), I can't quite see how either Sonic or Mario have actually survived in this modern era. Well ok Mario is on his way out as Nintendo concentrate on the Wii series games, but Sonic Team keep trying to get, how do you say, with the modern culture, which to a certain extent has worked for them. Sonic unleashed was kept from totally abysmal sales probably because the Werehog appealed to the mass market of the 360 audience.

I am saying that SEGA and Sonic Team shouldn't listen to you guys at all? Well to a certain extent yes, but the game industry is changing, and to a certain degree the players who revel in hardcore games rather than casual or the mass produced markets are a minority. I think that in the future, this may turn around again, but you've got a good 5 or so years to wait, and until then you have to face facts, if Sonic is to continue, he's got to change into something you don't want.

Agree, disagree, I don't car, probably not going to bother posting or looking at this thread unless it gets reported, but that's my thoughts, Sonic's done a better job and fitting into the modern age than Mario who has got along purely on blind nostalgia, you guys might not like it, but tough shit to be honest, if you want Sonic to stay alive you gotta deal with it.

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Em I the actual only one who liked Black Knight on it´s on merits?, and the one who squealed like a little girl when references to SA1 and 2 where made?

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Sonic shouldn't listen to his fans because SEGA take every potentially good idea from the fans and rape them up. This is why Sonic appears to be "unsaveable" in the eyes of many - they've taken plenty of good ideas from fans and STILL done it wrong. It's like Shadow The Hedgehog - branching story? Sounds great. Expansion of backstory? I'll have some of that please. Unified gameplay style (i.e. no treasure hunting, werehogging or fishing)? Definately. And yet for all those great ideas they still made a crap game.

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I'll put it like this: If Sonic team (or what ever other group develops a Sonic game) is starting development, keep quiet, say nothing, let them do what they do on their own, and we just might see a master piece.

Is that the message that you're trying to send out Black Lightning?

Edit: Ok maybe not a master piece, but just something that we'll all smile about : D

Edited by Jetronic
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