Why Sonic shouldn't listen to his fans.

[JEV3]

Plenty has been said already in this topic that I feel is appropriate to the subject, however I do have something to add.

One of the biggest problems with society, and especially faceless internet communities, is the black/white generalization that comes from all ends. However, an extremist usually brings shame to his own standards, so we know that a fair opinion must be aware of ever 'side' but be in its own position rather than shoved into either left or right.

One such case, as far as I'm concerned, is the Sonic franchise. They are finally headed in the right direction according to my opinion, but I'm well aware of the flaws of each and every game. I don't hate the Werehog with a passion, in fact, I really enjoyed his levels in the WiiS2 version, but I understand that it is as jarring as the Knuckles levels in SA especially for those who don't like that kind of gameplay. I am very fond of Black Knight, but I know that the level design isn't always great and the swordplay was not too well implemented... I'm not going to say its a bad game, but I was satisfied with my decision to wait until I could get it cheap. (of course, being as fond of the medieval setting as I am, I knew it couldn't miss)

However, thanks to generalization, both unintended and intentional, on both my part and on the parts of others... by being aware of the flaws in the franchise but still being a fan means that I will end up taking comments in every direction personally... being caught in the crossfire, if you will. For example, when IGN says "you have been buying terrible Sonic games for years now, why stop with this one!", I felt as if this was aimed towards me because I have willingly put forth my money to buy recent Sonic games because I enjoy them... but I hate Sonic 06 and Shadow with the same (possibly unfair... I haven't played either) passion as everybody else has. Because I enjoyed playing as the Werehog, every jab makes me a little more disgruntled, even if I know full well that it may really have been justified.

The habit of generalization is probably unavoidable, and though I fight it as much as I can... I still end up generalizing more than I should and I realize that nothing I can do will ever stop someone from lumping me into a category. However, in real world contact, the fact that you sometimes actually know somebody personally helps to balance it out. On the internet though, we are our opinions, like it or not. When people see my username, they don't see a face, they don't see the person behind the screen, they see my nick and can expect a lengthy post with whatever opinion I'm known for. I try to offset it by using the same username, the same avatar, and the same posting philosophy everywhere I go, so that my avatar becomes identified as my face and the fact that I'm not merely some opinion may be clearer... but really this only applies to someone who frequents the same forums I frequent or to those who have the time to actually bother with who each poster is...

---

So to pull this back to our initial concern, not only are the fans usually not as familiar with the whole situation as the actual company, but their opinions are polarized by technicality. An opinion that does not fit neatly into one category or the other is very rare, and without such an opinion, fanservice will be missing its mark, as noted in one of the listed items.

And I'd go a step further to say that this is why we, the fans, should not try too hard to listen to Sonic's fans. To go back to my personal example, if I took such comments any more seriously, I'd be too offended to conduct myself in a reasonable manner. Only if you can properly filter through the opinion can you really gain something from it, and as for fanservice, it really is the exact same situation, except between a corporation and a mass of rabid werehogs. *howls*

EDIT:

I really hate to add an addendum to an already lengthy post, but I want to add that the new director of Sonic KNEW that Sonic Unleashed was gonna be love/hate and said so in an interview. This comment earned him my respect and I have since tried to be less harsh towards a corporation that I do not understand myself... I don't think Sonic Team is as blind as we like to think they are... They just need to- Haha, nice try!

Edited May 8, 2009 by JEV3

[The Adventurer]

what is this discution about again?

Basically, we're talking about how the consumers voice their suggestions regarding game design.

Personally, I think it's perfectly reasonable that fans voice their opinions. The problem is that on the internet, people can be as pig-headed and unreasonable as they want to. If you ask me, I don't have any serious problem with the current games (although there's always room for improvement.), so it all comes off as chatter to me.

[Stephen]

Most boring topic, Done

[Cany the hedge]

Most boring topic, Done

You know...if you thought from the beggining this was a "boring" topic, then why the heck were you posting in the first place?.

Don´t waste a space that could be used for a more constructive thought.

About what Lightning says, I think that one COULD put some fanservice, as long as the gameplay isn´t affected by the thought of hyper-energetic-fangirls/boys.

[Blacklightning]

I'll put it like this: If Sonic team (or what ever other group develops a Sonic game) is starting development, keep quiet, say nothing, let them do what they do on their own, and we just might see a master piece.

Is that the message that you're trying to send out Black Lightning?

Not exactly, but that's one way things could work out. Alternatively (and more likely, seeing as I've never known a fanboy to shut up without personally pwning them), Sega/Sonic Team could simply block out fan contact altogether and just make a project by themselves. But either way could work. Either way, the focus should be less on fanservice and more on getting a decent game together first. I'm sure we'd all rather they had a solid game base to build on before they start adding other things - it's like deciding whether you should put christmas lights on a house before or after a roof is put onto it.

About what Lightning says, I think that one COULD put some fanservice, as long as the gameplay isn´t affected by the thought of hyper-energetic-fangirls/boys.

This too. Fanservice is an especially horrible idea when it comes at the detriment of the game itself.

I would've liked to post more of my thoughts, but I really can't find much to say. To be honest I'm actually surprised at the kind of reaction I got here.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Blacklightning

[redmenace]

Em I the actual only one who liked Black Knight on it´s on merits?, and the one who squealed like a little girl when references to SA1 and 2 where made?

Nope. But I'm a hard case, from ST I only disliked 06 and by every other made by another studio, I didn't like it, even though I didn't know who did those at the time.

Sonic fanbase is an unpleasable fanbase. There are those that stick too much to the old concept and even media versions of all things, and there are those who don't respect the franchise's roots either.

And just so you know, a game doesn't survive years, let alone decades, doing the same thing all over again. Mario can get away with it, but he's an exception.

edit: I think Sonic Unleashed is a step in the right direction, as it was Black Knight. Sure the games have flaws, sure they could be better, but they're on the right track.

Edited May 9, 2009 by redmenace

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And just so you know, a game doesn't survive years, let alone decades, doing the same thing all over again. Mario can get away with it, but he's an exception.

Oh no you don't. We're not going to go by that "Mario can do it" exception stuff, because even he doesn't do the same thing.

Mario doesn't do that in one bit, each generation he throws a twist into the mix to keep hims gameplay fresh, in the 2D games he do something to really up the gameplay better than he did previous games by going point A to B in a general fashion, but once he crossed 3D he threw most of that out of the window and remade himself to work in 3D.

Had he stayed the same, he wouldn't last a decade. If you make Game A the same as Game B, you're really better off staying with Game A, but Mario does a lot to make Game B more worthwhile than Game A.

[Blazey Firekitty]

At this point, I'm pretty much just happy that the new, restaffed Sonic Team seems committed to bringing back the lighthearted spirit the games consistently had before Shadow and 06 came along and made things dark to the point of being bizarre. Granted, I might enjoy those games if I played them, but thematically, they didn't seem like the sort of direction I'd like to see the series going in.

[Urtheart]

At this point, I'm pretty much just happy that the new, restaffed Sonic Team seems committed to bringing back the lighthearted spirit the games consistently had before Shadow and 06 came along and made things dark to the point of being bizarre. Granted, I might enjoy those games if I played them, but thematically, they didn't seem like the sort of direction I'd like to see the series going in.

One thing to remember is that at the time of at least Shadow (not so sure on 06) Darker was what sold, and to an extent it showed since Shadow the Hedgehog managed to get into Gamemaster's top 100 games of all time, the generation of newer gamers liked that sort of stuff.

On the topic of should Sonic Team be left to their own devices, I'm not entirely sure, granted they can't work with fan ideas, but I also think their creative talent is a little in the lacking department, though it's a tough call atm, Nights on Wii was abysmal (baring in mind I never played the original) but the recent Phantesy Star Portable is not half bad (mind you I'm not sure that was actually Sonic Team, I think the bulk was done by the other company, need to research it a bit more).

[Blazey Firekitty]

One thing to remember is that at the time of at least Shadow (not so sure on 06) Darker was what sold, and to an extent it showed since Shadow the Hedgehog managed to get into Gamemaster's top 100 games of all time, the generation of newer gamers liked that sort of stuff.

Come to think of it, perhaps even 06 might have been more popular than I give it credit for. Critics hated it, but what the critics think doesn't necessarily reflect sales.

[Candescence]

Come to think of it, perhaps even 06 might have been more popular than I give it credit for. Critics hated it, but what the critics think doesn't necessarily reflect sales.

Actually, I swear that game practically bombed in sales. It deserved it.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Soma Cruz

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Actually, I swear that game practically bombed in sales. It deserved it.

It did. Usually Sonic games would sell like hotcakes and have around 100,000 units sold around the first two week by estimate.

Sonic 06 had 36,000 sold around the two weeks it was released.

[SuperStingray]

Come to think of it, perhaps even 06 might have been more popular than I give it credit for. Critics hated it, but what the critics think doesn't necessarily reflect sales.

06 is actually a Platinum Hit on Xbox 360. It's not hard to see it as a terrible title, but if the reworked (and often inconsistent) tone of Sonic appeals to this generation, so be it.

Sonic Team just tries to make Sonic fit the interests of the current fan zeitgeist. Sure, maybe the story or gameplay doesn't always work, but that's really an entirely different story. To immediately dismiss anyone who hates post-genesis Sonic titles as some "nostalgiafag" is just as wrong as the ones who believe every decision made after 1994 was a mistake. Some people blindly accept change and some blindly fear it. But fans who jumped on the bandwagon during/after the Dreamcast either don't see enough differentiation in gameplay of the later to dislike them or see so much change that lack of identity is a part of the series' identity.

Edited May 9, 2009 by A Ham Sandwich

[Rusty Spy]

06 is actually a Platinum Hit on Xbox 360. It's not hard to see it as a terrible title, but if the reworked (and often inconsistent) tone of Sonic appeals to this generation, so be it.

Well, I wouldn't complain too much about the tone of the games, but that doesn't excuse them from putting no effort in whatsoever.

[Urtheart]

Well, I wouldn't complain too much about the tone of the games, but that doesn't excuse them from putting no effort in whatsoever.

I dunno, Why put effort in when you gain the same amount of profit from bugger all, (ok maybe bad example but you catch my general drift).

Anyway tis getting off topic, back to the main post topic please.

[redmenace]

Well, I wouldn't complain too much about the tone of the games, but that doesn't excuse them from putting no effort in whatsoever.

Microsoft and Sony wanted the game to be out for Christmas or else. What would SEGA do, say no and throw away the whole game away? Not mentioning that Naka left halfway along with many others. You guys might appeal to pride though, and that's something I'll agree with.

[Stephen]

You know...if you thought from the beggining this was a "boring" topic, then why the heck were you posting in the first place?.

Don´t waste a space that could be used for a more constructive thought.

About what Lightning says, I think that one COULD put some fanservice, as long as the gameplay isn´t affected by the thought of hyper-energetic-fangirls/boys.

whatever

Urtheart Edit: And if you continue to spam like that I'll give you a strike, this is your final warning.

[Phos]

A wise friend whom I have gone through Uni with once said this to me:

"You can make the perfect game you want to play, just don't expect anyone else to play it."

While of course other like minded people will want to play it, there is the obvious fact that if it's built around yourself (or your group) you effectively design it to suit one (or a group) of people, not particularly profitable. Of course if you don't enjoy the game you make, you don't expect anyone else to.

Look, I'm just quoting Treasure here, I'm sure you've heard of them.

Why should Sonic Team (or any company) try to appease to a fanbase when in the large scale of things it is completely irrelevant to the majority of their sales. I wouldn't say fan service is killing the franchise (Sonic Team also seem to have very little idea what to do themselves) but a better focus on their target audience is needed, and the fans should definitly not be that target audience if they want to profit, and they are a business, they need to profit.

I think you need to be a bit more clear about what you're describe as a "fan". Do you mean people who post on this forum? Or kids who watched Sonic X? They have to be aiming for some group of people, however vague their definition. There's also the matter of the success that the classic series got. Sonic 1, 2, and 3 were obviously able to appeal to the mass market, and what I (a fan) want is a 3D game that was like those games. The market might have changed, but Sonic continues to find some degree of success, and I belive that a game like the type I would want to see would see even greater success. If you don't agree with me on that, I suppose that for now we'll just have to agree to disagree, because the only way to test my theory would be to make it and find out.

I also don't thing it's true, whether they should be catering to a fan base or not, I really get the idea that they were trying to some sort of fan base with Unleashed. Sonic is the only playable character (mostly), there are hub worlds, something that lots of fans actually like, Hashimoto specifically saying he was in more than one interview, those kinds of things. I think it's mostly a matter of not really knowing how. Perhaps they were aiming it at Japanese fans? No way to tell without picking several people's brains.

Baring in mind I am suppose to be a Game Designer (soon to be qualified as one), I can't quite see how either Sonic or Mario have actually survived in this modern era. Well ok Mario is on his way out as Nintendo concentrate on the Wii series games, but Sonic Team keep trying to get, how do you say, with the modern culture, which to a certain extent has worked for them. Sonic unleashed was kept from totally abysmal sales probably because the Werehog appealed to the mass market of the 360 audience.

I am saying that SEGA and Sonic Team shouldn't listen to you guys at all? Well to a certain extent yes, but the game industry is changing, and to a certain degree the players who revel in hardcore games rather than casual or the mass produced markets are a minority. I think that in the future, this may turn around again, but you've got a good 5 or so years to wait, and until then you have to face facts, if Sonic is to continue, he's got to change into something you don't want.

Agree, disagree, I don't car, probably not going to bother posting or looking at this thread unless it gets reported, but that's my thoughts, Sonic's done a better job and fitting into the modern age than Mario who has got along purely on blind nostalgia, you guys might not like it, but tough shit to be honest, if you want Sonic to stay alive you gotta deal with it.

It seems pretty obvious to me that Mario would have survived. Quality things aimed at kids tend to still appeal to the same age group after the original market has become too old for it. See: Wizard of Oz, Looney Toons, Lion King, Superman, to some extent, Tin Tin.

As for the Werehog... Take a look over the marketing material that was associated with Unleashed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwPR2X8zbwE, the random store displays, the demo, and the back of the box. What about any of those would tell the typical 360 player what to expect out of the Werehog? It's not from looking at trailers or stuff online, because that puts them into the "Hardcore" crowd. If casual players, even you're typical Halo players read reviews of games and followed video game news sites, do you think that games like Okami and Mad World any critically acclaimed flop would have sold as poorly as they did?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Perhaps they were aiming it at Japanese fans?

I doubt it. Sonic games hardly sold any good in Japan since the series very first outing if I'm not mistaken.

Edited May 10, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

Just throwing out possibilities. I'd rather inability not be the reason for what we see here.

[SuperStingray]

Just throwing out possibilities. I'd rather inability not be the reason for what we see here.

It's clearly not. Given the detail and complexity in Unleashed and work put into the Hedgehog Engine, I doubt even its greatest flaws can be attributed to utter incompetence. The main issue with the Werehog isn't so much its existence as that it's forcing fans to do something they may not want to do in a Sonic game.

[Urtheart]

The main issue with the Werehog isn't so much its existence as that it's forcing fans to do something they may not want to do in a Sonic game.

But isn't that the part which people whom are not fans prefer as it is similar to the style of gameplay they want or are used to at this current point in time?

Phos I'm going to have to do quick response since I gotta get out the door in 5 so:

> By fans I mean those who buy Sonic games for them being Sonic games, and they have certain expectations of what they want a Sonic game to be. Even in the Mega Drive era not all the people who bought the games (well 2 and after) were fans, some were simply interested in the game style or such. The point still stands that if you aim a game at a nich market, with a budget like Unleashed, it's a pointless project for a business, you have to aim a game at the mass market of the time. This for part explains why there was such a heavy combat focus within Unleashed, third person action games in the style of God of War sell to some extent.

> Also yes Unleashed had fan service, the game was Sonic playable only, and people bitched about it. To quote Yahtzee, "fans are whiny complaining dip shits who will never ever be happy with anything you do for them". I wouldn't say that's 100% accurate but it ain't far from the truth.

> The xbox 360 market isn't the Hardcore or Casual market, although they certainly have a bigger market of hardcore gamers. What I meant by this is that the game is modelled after the games that are typically played on the 360 which vaguely fit in the same area of Sonic (it was either that or an FPS).

> Out of those list of quality things aimed at children I can't say any except Superman are even known by the current generation of kids, mostly due to the fact that there is an emphasis (at least in the UK) on forcing kids to grow up as quickly as possible. Also you say Mario survived due to quality, Mario Galaxy was a relative flop on the Wii, while the character is still Nintendo's icon, Mario's style of games really only applies on Nostalga as Nintendo focus on a bigger audience base who don't have the time (or patience possibly) for longer gameplay styles.

Ok some of that was on topic, some off.

[Phos]

I think it's a bit of a stretch that many of the people who bought Unleashed had a clear idea what kind of game the Werehog was. The commercial shows about 2 seconds of footage of the Werehog, the back of the box describes "powerful combat skills", and the demo doesn't hint at the Werehog's gameplay - I don't think that any of those things give enough of an indication to buy the game. The most credit I'm willing to give the typical buyer is checking out the demo, provided it's available over XBLA/PSN. The people who actually look up reviews and information for games online is actually pretty small, from what I can tell. If I were to throw out a number, I'd say somewhere between 1.5 - 2.0 million people total. Honestly, I think the biggest influence on a game's sales is TV ads and word of mouth.

I think the typical buyer of Unleashed was either a parent buying it for their kid or the kid him/herself. So, basically, people buying it just because it's Sonic.

I don't think you can really call Unleashed 360 much of a commercial success. Amazon was selling it for half price the week it came out. It was a sale, and not the regular price, but how often do you see brand new games being included in sales like that?

One more thing: Super Mario Galaxy definitely was not a flop.

[Gamenerd]

Incidentally, I think Mario Galaxy shows exactly the right direction Sonic should take. It took everything that was great about its respective series and improved it tenfold, whilst still feeling fresh. It introduced a gimmick that does not hinder gameplay (Werehog, swordplay, etc.) but in fact eniances it and frees up room for developers. Not only did it eliminate abundance of death pits (aside from in chosen situations), it also gave them the ability to only program what was neccessary - in Unleashed, they wasted time programming great big chunks of unplayable city which wasted development time (resulting in less Daytime levels), but in Galaxy they came up with a system that allowed the developers to only need to program areas that you can actually explore and leave everything else blank. Plus it had references/cameos for fans new and old, but instead of being tacky and forced (like in SATBK with the Biolizard reference), they are subtly intergrated so that if you played the older games you'd recognise the fanservice, but if you didn't, it doesn't alienate you.

[Marco9966]

This topic is 10 years old and it's still very relevant now