Why is Chaotix non-canon?

[Emmett L. Brown]

I've heard it mentioned several times now that Knuckles Chaotix has been declared non-canon. So first of all, I would like to know the source of this dismissal, and second of all I'd like to understand why this game can't fit with the established canon.

I can't find anything in this game that's so conflicting. The changed characters of Espio, Charmy and Vector are hardly more noticable than the evolution of Rosy the Rascal.

[Neon]

Heroes. Throughout the game they describe Eggman as new foe who they've never directly met.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Neon

[Nepenthe]

Iizuka makes some remarks during Heroes that can pretty much be taken as saying Chaotix doesn't matter and isn't canon, stating that he feels the characters he brought back were different and that the original Sonic Team had no involvement in that game whatsoever. More informally, it's probably because Knuckles and the Chaotix don't even recognize each other's existence, which you'd think would happen sooner or later considering they all just happened to team up out of nowhere.

[-Mark-]

I do find it quite interesting that, despite Iizuka stating/ implying (I think) the game wasn't canon, the official strategy guide for Generations mentions the events of Chaotix (although also wrongly says that Sonic met Charmy there, when he, er, didn't).

I'm fairly sure I read somewhere around the time of Heroes that Sonic Team considered that they were 'introducting Chaotix as new characters' again at that time, rather than bringing them back.

In all actuality though, the only big issue would be that Charmy somehow went from being 16 to being 6. Although I suppose that's not much different from them swapping Sonic and Knuckles' ages (16 became 15 and vice-versa) back in 2003, either.

[Neon]

I do find it quite interesting that, despite Iizuka stating/ implying (I think) the game wasn't canon, the official strategy guide for Generations mentions the events of Chaotix (although also wrongly says that Sonic met Charmy there, when he, er, didn't).

It's safe to never take strategy guides seriously. They're always filled with incorrect information.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I do find it quite interesting that, despite Iizuka stating/ implying (I think) the game wasn't canon, the official strategy guide for Generations mentions the events of Chaotix (although also wrongly says that Sonic met Charmy there, when he, er, didn't).

I'm fairly sure I read somewhere around the time of Heroes that Sonic Team considered that they were 'introducting Chaotix as new characters' again at that time, rather than bringing them back.

In all actuality though, the only big issue would be that Charmy somehow went from being 16 to being 6. Although I suppose that's not much different from them swapping Sonic and Knuckles' ages (16 became 15 and vice-versa) back in 2003, either.

And even that is a non-issue once you forget the western manuals- the Japanese manual had no age for Charmy, IIRC. In fact, going by the Japanese manual, assuming the canon playthrough is Knuckles and Espio, and doing a bit of a stretch, you can easily fit Chaotix with Heroes.

[Badnik Zero]

The Chaotix are new characters as much as Omega is a good character. Everything was off about Sonic Heroes.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Iizuka makes some remarks during Heroes that can pretty much be taken as saying Chaotix doesn't matter and isn't canon, stating that he feels the characters he brought back were different and that the original Sonic Team had no involvement in that game whatsoever. More informally, it's probably because Knuckles and the Chaotix don't even recognize each other's existence, which you'd think would happen sooner or later considering they all just happened to team up out of nowhere.

He says the characters have been reinvented, and that's totally true, and that Chaotix was made by a different team, which is true for a lot of past Sonic games that I wouldn't drop out of canon for that reason.

Team Chaotix not acknowledging Knuckles in Sonic Heroes isn't something I would put any weight to. Sonic never acknowledges knowing Cream in that game, even though he met her in Sonic Advance 2. Besides, when those two teams finally meet up they've got more important things to deal with than catching up on old times, what with Metal Sonic's ambitions of godhood and whatnot.

I'm all in favour of the idea that Team Chaotix was reinvented after their eponymous game, but I don't think Sega consider the game to never have happened. After all, they put remixes from Chaotix in Generations, which is a pretty major nod to that game.

[Nepenthe]

Team Chaotix not acknowledging Knuckles in Sonic Heroes isn't something I would put any weight to. Sonic never acknowledges knowing Cream in that game, even though he met her in Sonic Advance 2. Besides, when those two teams finally meet up they've got more important things to deal with than catching up on old times, what with Metal Sonic's ambitions of godhood and whatnot.

I'm all in favour of the idea that Team Chaotix was reinvented after their eponymous game, but I don't think Sega consider the game to never have happened. After all, they put remixes from Chaotix in Generations, which is a pretty major nod to that game.

In terms of the characters acknowledging each other in a manner of remembrance, I'm not only limiting that to Heroes. This doesn't happen in literally any other game where the characters run across each other. Sure, you can argue that these encounters have limited relevance due to the nature of the specific games they happen in, like the Olympics games, but Rivals 2 with its stronger story seems to cement the notion that they don't know much less care about each other in a way that would suggest their encounter in Knuckles Chaotix is still canon.

But if we're only sticking to Heroes, remember that the characters were prone to in-game dialogue that references past games. For example, Knuckles makes an offhanded remark about the large mushrooms in the tropical levels, and for no real reason either other than as a nostalgic meta reference to tickle older Sonic players, all in a game that was intentionally meant to be nostalgic in the first place. But original nods to Knuckles Chaotix are left out entirely, which is telling considering it was the team's big revival in one of the most hyped and ultimately successful 3D Sonic games ever.

I also wouldn't use Generations' use of older music as proof of its canon status, unless you want to argue that Spinball is canon on that basis as well.

[Diogenes]

In my mind, I didn't bring back the Team Chaotix characters from the past -- instead, they're new characters who happen to fit into the game.

So it's not a matter of bringing up old characters... we recreated those characters from the ground up.

Honestly, that seems pretty clear to me. The Team Chaotix of Heroes and onward are not the same as the characters from Knuckles Chaotix, and therefore either there's two Espios, two Charmys, and two Vectors, or Chaotix isn't canon.

[Your Vest Friend]

Well, to sum up every reason that there is, basically;

-There's Iizuka's quote (surprised someone else quoted the article before I did, actually), which can easily been seen as still applicable given all the nods to Heroes that have been made in his control. He really does love that game (and the Chaotix, apparently).

-Then you have the age problem, which is NOT actually related to the manual ages. Given Generations, we can easily discount the ages given in the manual, right? Bigger problem lies in the age differences that Generations offers. There's something like four years between the classic forms and the modern forms. Question; how in the fuck would Charmy be able to fight as a two year old? Tails I can actually accepted as having fought at four because he was determined and he had a vastly higher intellect than any four year old should have. Charmy appears to have average intellect, so he'd still be incapable of doing anything at two, even if you do accept that kids are allowed to have combat skills.

-Then there's them not knowing Eggman in Heroes on such a personal basis which has already been covered.

-There's also them not knowing Knuckles in Heroes or beyond. I'd like to add a little addendum, though; I recall you said it may simply be that they haven't had the chance to catch up with each other given the dire circumstances? The circumstances weren't dire at the picnic, you'd think they'd go over to him to have a friendly chat if they knew him as a friend from KC. In fact, there's some dialogue bubbles in game that suggest that

The Chaotix were working for Rouge in collecting Red Star Rings. If they were friends of Knuckles from way back, wouldn't they be aware by now that Rouge is Knuckles' arch-rival? Why would take business off her when it would potentially be working against their close friend?

-Then you have the posters in Generations of Mighty and Ray. While it's far more tenuous since it could be a general nod to SegaSonic Arcade, Mighty is far more well remembered for being in Chaotix, which came after the missing date of 1993.

Just a little summary. Do what you want with it.

[-Mark-]

It's safe to never take strategy guides seriously. They're always filled with incorrect information.

True, that same strategy guide also said that Cream debuted in Sonic CD back in '93, sooo... yeah.

[Your Vest Friend]

Yeah, the errors in those sorts of character profiles will be the guide writers trying to look knowledgable without being aware of the canonicity of certain events. The Cartoon Network Generations profile of Espio had a KC reference too.

Some of the mistakes are just unbelievable, though.

[Yong]

In terms of the characters acknowledging each other in a manner of remembrance, I'm not only limiting that to Heroes. This doesn't happen in literally any other game where the characters run across each other. Sure, you can argue that these encounters have limited relevance due to the nature of the specific games they happen in, like the Olympics games, but Rivals 2 with its stronger story seems to cement the notion that they don't know much less care about each other in a way that would suggest their encounter in Knuckles Chaotix is still canon.

Not all friends have to rememence about their past constantly. From a narrative perspective it would get old and stale fast. "Hey, remember that time we did that and this happened!? Good times man!"

[Nepenthe]

Not all friends have to rememence about their past constantly. From a narrative perspective it would get old and stale fast. "Hey, remember that time we did that and this happened!? Good times man!"

I'm not saying they have to do it constantly. I'm saying, at least once within the eight years the Chaotix have been back on the scene would've been a bit comforting.

[Indigo Rush]

Charmy was 16 years old in Chaotix.

I don't think he got younger.

[Yong]

I'm not saying they have to do it constantly. I'm saying, at least once within the eight years the Chaotix have been back on the scene would've been a bit comforting.

Comforting in the fact that it would be the end-all in this arguement. Unfortunately Sega hasn't made it that simple.

[VO.SUPER]

I'm not saying they have to do it constantly. I'm saying, at least once within the eight years the Chaotix have been back on the scene would've been a bit comforting.

Weren't most of those dialogues referencing to past games only part of the english dub? I remember SNN reporting that at least.

Edited December 18, 2011 by VisionaryBlur

[Your Vest Friend]

I think they made it simple by Iizuka blurting out as soon as Heroes came out.

[Nepenthe]

Weren't most of those dialogues referencing to past games only part of the english dub? I remember SNN reporting that at least.

The English dub is the original anyway. Heroes is an explicitly American game.

[VO.SUPER]

The English dub is the original anyway. Heroes is an explicitly American game.

Then why was it released in Japan a month earlier?

[Nepenthe]

Then why was it released in Japan a month earlier?

Because Sega can do that? Nonetheless, the game was developed by the American Sonic Team branch.

[goku262002]

Just what part of the script that makes Heroes American or not American? hell I'm pretty sure the scripts from adventure up until unleashed have been all Japanese first then translated with very little changes. its not until Colors that we have been getting 2 different sets of scripts.

Back to the game, Problem is now that everyone is clamoring for a chaotix remake with taxman's engine, just how is chaotix going to fit into the storyline canon wise if the chaotix have been rebooted to not remember those events?

Unless they want to "modernize" the game and make brand new sprites for everybody and just write up chaotix as a current event. i can see that working since chaotix doesn't fit into any of the known Sonic 1-3k continuity.

[Your Vest Friend]

Just another addendum from me; it important to note that Iizuka himself appears to really like Knuckles Chaotix. I'm sure if he wanted it to be part of the storyline, he would try to drop references whenever he could in the same way he has done for Heroes. Thus far, it's been limited to musical references that have no bearing on canonicity,

[Emmett L. Brown]

Hidden Palace. Super Emeralds. Hyper Sonic. These things that have been retconned out of existence. But the game in which they happened is most definitely canon. Hence just because the characters from Knuckles Chaotix have been rewritten doesn't mean the events of the game never happened.

And since Iizuka only talks about reinventing the Chaotix characters, and never actually says anything about the game Knuckles Chaotix other than that he wasn't involved with it, I'm inclined to say there's no reason at all to think that the game is non-canon.

...also, thinking that Classic Sonic is any specific age younger than Modern Sonic is pretty silly. Bart Simpson looked very different twenty years ago, but he was still ten years old then and now. Bruce Wayne has also been in his thirties for over half a century.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Grumpy Old Grinch