Why is Chaotix non-canon?

[Your Vest Friend]

The word 're-introduction' kind of disagrees with that.

[Nepenthe]

Iizuka didn't just say he wasn't involved in it; he said Sonic Team as a whole wasn't really involved in it, citing that "some other internal Sega development team" produced it. If it were just him lacking major involvement as has happened in the past with certain titles, it would've been an extremely irrelevant thing to bring up in context of the question. He's purposefully putting a significant distance between the old and new Chaotix not only in terms of their looks and personalities, but in terms of their respective debuts.

And it's interesting to note that Classic Sonic was actually 16 for a minute instead of Modern's 15. xP

[Emmett L. Brown]

The word 're-introduction' kind of disagrees with that.

Sentence fragment. Consider revising.

Iizuka didn't just say he wasn't involved in it; he said Sonic Team as a whole wasn't really involved in it, citing that "some other internal Sega development team" produced it. If it were just him lacking major involvement as has happened in the past with certain titles, it would've been an extremely irrelevant thing to bring up in context of the question. He's purposefully putting a significant distance between the old and new Chaotix not only in terms of their looks and personalities, but in terms of their respective debuts.

And it's interesting to note that Classic Sonic was actually 16 for a minute instead of Modern's 15. xP

Unless you have Iizuka's notes, I'm disinclined to take your interpretation of his words as solid evidence.

The age thing is pretty funny, though.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Grumpy Old Grinch

[Diogenes]

Hidden Palace. Super Emeralds. Hyper Sonic. These things that have been retconned out of existence. But the game in which they happened is most definitely canon. Hence just because the characters from Knuckles Chaotix have been rewritten doesn't mean the events of the game never happened.

Okay, so what actually happened in this supposed rewrite of Chaotix? What actually survived the rewrite?

The characters are not the same. They show no indication of having been through that game. There's no story elements from it that apply to any other game.

Kind of sounds like something that doesn't actually exist, huh?

Edited December 18, 2011 by Diogenes

[Nepenthe]

How else can you interpret "We had no involvement in the original Chaotix and our characters are completely different" as anything but a distancing?

[Silverfang]

^{Wait, kinda off topic but when was Hidden Palace retconned? I haven't seen any evidence of this.}

Edited December 18, 2011 by Silverfang

[Emmett L. Brown]

There's no story elements from it that apply to any other game.

*cracks knuckles*

Knuckles Chaotix has multiple Badniks from Sonic CD, an explanation of how Metal Sonic was ressurected in its backstory, a Chaos/Dark ring plot element that ties in with the positive and negative energy plot element in Sonic Adventure, an intro text that ties to the events of Sonic & Knuckles, 2 returning characters from previous games, 3 new characters that would participate in future games (albeit completely redesigned), the game engine is based on a protype for Sonic 4, making an amusement park themed fortress is completely in-character for Eggman and is consistent with future portrayal, Sonic Heroes' climax mimicks that of Chaotix by having Metal Sonic turn into a giant robot monstrosity, the similarly-coloured Chaos Rings may be homaged by the World Rings of Sonic & the Secret Rings, and finally this game marks the first time Knuckles leaves Angel Island to go on an adventure of his own with much explanation of why he'd do so, which should be relevant since he constantly leaves the island at a whim these days.

How else can you interpret "We had no involvement in the original Chaotix and our characters are completely different" as anything but a distancing?

I'd interpret it as a distancing. Why would I see it as anything else? But distancing himself from the game that introduced the characters he is reintroducing and declaring the entire game void and non-canon are not the same thing.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Grumpy Old Grinch

[Nepenthe]

My specific thoughts about Iizuka's statements said nothing definitely about canon either.

But I will admit, the current lead of Sonic Team distancing his team- past and present- from the game by essentially stating it wasn't their product in any way, shape, or form, hammering home the fact that the characters are meant to be taken as completely different entities than what was seen in the original, and deliberately making absolutely no references to the game whatsoever in the eight-plus years the new Chaotix have existed beyond a music track that wasn't so much a canon reference as it was for the sake of nostalgia, simply aren't points in favor of the game's status as canon.

[Emmett L. Brown]

I wasn't aware canon had an expiration date.

My beef is just why I've heard so many people label this one specific game as non-canon out of the myriad of spin-offs and side stories.

[Diogenes]

Knuckles Chaotix has multiple Badniks from Sonic CD,

You've got your dependencies backwards; Chaotix can take whatever the fuck it wants from previous games, but that's not proof of anything, anymore than me writing a fanfic with Tails and Eggrobo making out means that's a thing that happened because Tails and Eggrobo are official characters from a previously existing game.

an explanation of how Metal Sonic was ressurected in its backstory,

He's a robot, you rebuild him. This doesn't require an explanation.

a Chaos/Dark ring plot element that ties in with the positive and negative energy plot element in Sonic Adventure,

It doesn't really seem clear what the fuck Chaotix's story is really about. And just mentioning a Dark Something that's somehow related to the emeralds isn't enough to draw a connection.

an intro text that ties to the events of Sonic & Knuckles,

Backwards dependencies.

2 returning characters from previous games,

Backwards dependencies.

3 new characters that would participate in future games (albeit completely redesigned)

Derp.

the game engine is based on a protype for Sonic 4

Irrelevant.

making an amusement park themed fortress is completely in-character for Eggman and is consistent with future portrayal,

Something not being out of character does not make the game canon.

Sonic Heroes' climax mimicks that of Chaotix by having Metal Sonic turn into a giant robot monstrosity,

Could be a reference, could be a coincidence (the series has kind of ridden on giant monster final bosses for most of its 3D life). Doesn't imply Chaotix ever actually happened regardless.

the similarly-coloured Chaos Rings may be homaged by the World Rings of Sonic & the Secret Rings,

We don't know what the deal is with the World Rings, but not one word in any game has actually implied any connection between them and the Chaos Rings. And even if it's an homage, that doesn't make Chaotix canon.

and finally this game marks the first time Knuckles leaves Angel Island to go on an adventure of his own with much explanation of why he'd do so, which should be relevant since he constantly leaves the island at a whim these days.

It isn't. At all.

My beef is just why I've heard so many people label this one specific game as non-canon out of the myriad of spin-offs and side stories.

I label plenty of other games noncanon. Edited December 18, 2011 by Diogenes

[Nepenthe]

I wasn't aware canon had an expiration date.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

And tons of people don't think most of the game spin-offs are canon, like me for instance. But I'm not sure why it matters at the end of the day. Whether or not a game is canon doesn't affect its narrative quality and the enjoyability you personally derive from it, nor the fact that the game still tangibly exists to be enjoyed. I like many of the spin-offs without any need whatsoever to get other people to convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that these games aren't canon, as if that makes them any lesser.

[Yong]

I wasn't aware canon had an expiration date.

My beef is just why I've heard so many people label this one specific game as non-canon out of the myriad of spin-offs and side stories.

It comes down to a specific scene in Sonic Heroes where Vector and Charmy are not familiar with who Eggman is.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Diogenes, your claim was that "There's no story elements from it that apply to any other game." Changing the question afterwards doesn't enhance your argument, and neither does swearing and derping. You say my arguments are subjective? Well, I completely agree. They are subjective. But so any evidence that Knuckles Chaotix is non-canon.

I'll make it really easy. If Sega puts forward a completely official bio for Espio, and states that his first game appearance is Sonic Heroes, then there's no doubt that not only Knuckles Chaotix but also Sonic the Fighters have been rendred non-canon. That'd be just groovy. But as it stands, there's nothing more than the interpretation of an interview (and interviews are misinterpeted and rethought all the time), and our subjective opinions to indicate the canonicity of this game.

Thus, I state that Knuckles Chaotix is canon until proven non-canon, and I really can't figure out why the lot of you are so insistent that this game should be removed. It wasn't that bad, was it?

[goku262002]

Which ones are non-canon to you Diogenes?

[Your Vest Friend]

Aren't the World Rings a reference to the ring that actually appears in the original tale of Aladdin?

[Diogenes]

Diogenes, your claim was that "There's no story elements from it that apply to any other game." Changing the question afterwards doesn't enhance your argument,

I had thought it was obvious I was talking about games past Chaotix and things that actually connected the games rather than similar but unrelated concepts that two games share.

and neither does swearing and derping.

No shit, but I derp it anyway.

You say my arguments are subjective?

No, I'm saying the vast majority of your arguments are wrong, and what isn't wrong is inconclusive at best.

Thus, I state that Knuckles Chaotix is canon until proven non-canon, and I really can't figure out why the lot of you are so insistent that this game should be removed. It wasn't that bad, was it?

It's got nothing to do with quality, I don't care if it was the greatest game to grace this planet, if all else was the same I'd still be calling it noncanon. The main point is that the Chaotix were reintroduced as new characters, and if they are new characters Knuckles Chaotix can't be canon, because then they'd be old characters, and old characters being new characters would rip paradox space a new one. KC isn't required for any other game's story, so on the basis of this contradiction it gets thrown out.

Which ones are non-canon to you Diogenes?

Er, a lot? Give me some time and let me see if I can't do this visually...

edit: Here.

Green is canon, red is not. Ports/multiple releases are green and collections are red because I'm arbitrary and couldn't be assed to edit them out or stick with just one. The list isn't up to date so I added a few; I don't think I missed anything of note though if I did please point it out.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Diogenes

[Nepenthe]

Thus, I state that Knuckles Chaotix is canon until proven non-canon, and I really can't figure out why the lot of you are so insistent that this game should be removed. It wasn't that bad, was it?

Logically, you're the one making a positive claim in this instance, that being "Chaotix is canon", so why in the world are we saddled with the task of proving you wrong? That's not how this works. In fact, since you freely admit there's no definitive evidence for either side of the spectrum, even with Sonic Team's word into play, what's the point of this topic now?

And again, why does it aggravate you that people don't consider the game canon (and why do you falsely assume most people only target Chaotix on this basis) when such an opinion has absolutely no bearing on the merits of its gameplay, narrative, graphics, and other elements? What in the world would significantly change if everyone actually agreed with you? I know I still wouldn't care to even play the game in the first place. =/

[JezMM]

Eh, I like to consider Chaotix canon. The only really important inconsistency is Chaotix referring to Eggman as an enemy they've never fought before In Heroes - except - I don't actually remember them saying anything to that effect. I'm trusting you guys on that one.

[Chaos Warp]

Charmy was 16 years old in Chaotix.

I don't think he got younger.

Ah, Indigo, you can make long, descriptive walls of awesome-style posts (which are often very well written and a pleasure to read), but your best ones are often the shortest........

Anyway, I think this game is non-canon because of the Chaotix. In Heroes, a canon game, the Chaotix did not include Knuckles. The game being KNUCKLES Chaotix clashed with the canon, so therefore they made it non-canon.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Considering the stuff thats come from Sega in the last year... can anyone safely say what is or isn't canon anymore?

Up until a month ago we were all convinced that Secret Rings and the Black Knight were spinoff titles which were non canon... then suddenly one line from Sonic in Generations is enough to turn everything on it's head.

Then theres the whole issue of how Sonic CD is now significant (in Segas eyes) to Sonic 4.

Stuff can be changed or altered quite easilly so long as it benefits whatever direction they're going in. After that line in Generations, I'm not sure you can so easilly discount anything now since it could so easilly pop back up in a future game.

[VO.SUPER]

Considering the stuff thats come from Sega in the last year... can anyone safely say what is or isn't canon anymore?

Up until a month ago we were all convinced that Secret Rings and the Black Knight were spinoff titles which were non canon... then suddenly one line from Sonic in Generations is enough to turn everything on it's head.

Then theres the whole issue of how Sonic CD is now significant (in Segas eyes) to Sonic 4.

Stuff can be changed or altered quite easilly so long as it benefits whatever direction they're going in. After that line in Generations, I'm not sure you can so easilly discount anything now since it could so easilly pop back up in a future game.

You see, it's stuff like this that should make the idea of canon be disregarded for Sonic. If there's anything being a Zelda fan teaches you, it's that once you care about canon, things begin to stand on their head and the developers find that they have to walk thinner lines than usual. So every game might as well be canon in one way or another unless you want your ears to be a blood fountain.

[Neon]

Considering the stuff thats come from Sega in the last year... can anyone safely say what is or isn't canon anymore?

Up until a month ago we were all convinced that Secret Rings and the Black Knight were spinoff titles which were non canon... then suddenly one line from Sonic in Generations is enough to turn everything on it's head.

Then theres the whole issue of how Sonic CD is now significant (in Segas eyes) to Sonic 4.

Stuff can be changed or altered quite easilly so long as it benefits whatever direction they're going in. After that line in Generations, I'm not sure you can so easilly discount anything now since it could so easilly pop back up in a future game.

The difference between the Storybook games and KC is the fact that there was never anything to suggest the Storybooks were non-canon. Whereas KC directly contradicts canon.

[Diogenes]

Up until a month ago we were all convinced that Secret Rings and the Black Knight were spinoff titles which were non canon...

Hey, I always figured they were canon.

Then theres the whole issue of how Sonic CD is now significant (in Segas eyes) to Sonic 4.

What about it? CD was already canon, S4 was already canon (in so much as there's anything there to be canon), and now S4 is going to have some currently unknown link to CD. That doesn't really change anything.

Stuff can be changed or altered quite easilly so long as it benefits whatever direction they're going in. After that line in Generations, I'm not sure you can so easilly discount anything now since it could so easilly pop back up in a future game.

And when and if something changes, the canon and our understanding of it will change. We do the best we can with what we have now, and acknowledge that new information may lead us to change our theories.

[buba]

Next game Sonic will say: "Remember that time when I was used as a pinball to enter Eggman's base and beat it? Yeah, good times Tails!"

Then I will laught at people that said Spinball wan't canon.

[-Mark-]

Hidden Palace. Super Emeralds. Hyper Sonic. These things that have been retconned out of existence.

Out of curiosity, what evidence has their been to suggest Hidden Palace has been retconned? Super Emeralds and Hyper Sonic are both given no-brainers, but I never really saw anything too problematic with Hidden Palace?