Why is Chaotix non-canon?

[Emmett L. Brown]

Logically, you're the one making a positive claim in this instance, that being "Chaotix is canon", so why in the world are we saddled with the task of proving you wrong? That's not how this works. In fact, since you freely admit there's no definitive evidence for either side of the spectrum, even with Sonic Team's word into play, what's the point of this topic now?

And again, why does it aggravate you that people don't consider the game canon (and why do you falsely assume most people only target Chaotix on this basis) when such an opinion has absolutely no bearing on the merits of its gameplay, narrative, graphics, and other elements? What in the world would significantly change if everyone actually agreed with you? I know I still wouldn't care to even play the game in the first place. =/

I get that I seem aggravated, but to be perfectly honest I'd be fine with Knuckles Chaotix being declared non-canon. I just find the reasoning and evidence for why it shouldn't be canon to be too weak for it to be taken as fact. And I only said I saw this game being defined as non-canon several times in this very discussion forum. That's not an assumption, that' something that happened, and I wanted to understand why. I now acknowledge the reasoning, though I don't agree with it.

And since it has been asked a lot what games I think are supposed to be canon. The answer: Absolutely every single game ever made unless specifically stated otherwise. Yes, even Spinball, Labyrinth and the deservedly unplayed Sonic Shuffle.

So I don't think it's a case where a game has to prove it's canon. It's a built-in quality just by being part of Sega's Sonic the Hedgehog video game franchise. In a day and age where it's in-story canon that Sonic, Tails and Eggman's shapes and sizes have changed in tune with their character redesigns, who's to say all the ridiculous spin-offs didn't happen as well?

EDIT: I know, I know. Iizuka is to say they didn't happen. Fine. He's the boss. If he says Chronicles is out of the story, that's fine by me. Let me know when he says the same about Knuckles Chaotix.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Grumpy Old Grinch

[Scarecrow]

I think the sooner Sonic fandom as a whole realize there's no such thing *as* canon in the first place, the sooner it will mature as a fandom. In the end, it's only the fans that worry about these things in any real detail, and companies usually only start to worry when they think they can appeal/make money from fans (see buffy season 8 comics). But in general, they just make games, tell stories and don't worry. So there's no real need for 'canon' debates, and half the fun of most fandoms is to debate/discuss the contradictions.

I think Chaotix is part of the characters history in some form. Any more than that I'm not worried about, but if in the mood, would happily discuss.

[Nepenthe]

I seem to be different from most people in the fandom. The very fact that any and every game can supposedly be taken as hard fact either because they're not outright contradictory or because you can twist an interpretation of the events a little bit under the event that they do contradict something isn't a good thing to me, especially since this isn't how logic works in literally any other applicable circumstance I can think of. We generally don't believe anything else on the Internet or in real life as being true without cold hard fact or precedent backing it. I could tell you right now that two reindeer just stampeded through my house in Atlanta at the very moment you read this. It's possible for this to have happened, but would you honestly believe me without any doubt whatsoever? I don't think so. So why in the world do we open the floodgates like this to canon without bothering to ask spin-offs to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they did, in fact, happen? It doesn't make a lick of sense to me. I figure, with something that has been as heated as canon over the years, and with canon itself essentially being the holy grail of history for the universe, telling us what did actually happen, the games in question should seriously be held to a much, much higher standard than just, "Well, it can kinda fit, so obviously it must be true." But that's just me. xP

[JezMM]

No. He didn't. But people have started saying he did for some reason...

Well I'm sure he's a total jerk anyway, why if he was here right now I'd keep him a piece of my miinaaaaaahoh god.

[Emmett L. Brown]

CAAAAAAAAANON!!!

Okay, got that out of my system.

I see what you're saying, Nephente. I'm the opposite on that point: I don't think canon is a big deal, because the plots of the Sonic series are completely and utterly ridiculous, but entertainingly so. But I can see why you would think it a cause worth fighting over, and why you would think the stories of this twenty year old video game series are comparable to real life facts. It's all good. You should see the embarrasingly length plot analysises and canon disections I wrote a few years ago, back when I pretty much had the exact same opinion you do.

[Nepenthe]

Well, I don't take canon seriously in that I invest significant time in determining what it really is or fighting for my interpretation with other people who won't be convinced anyway. Again, I've already stated that the canon status of any game is ultimately its most useless quality, except in the narrowest of online discussions where determining what did happen is absolutely necessary to the context. I just figured though, with a subject that's been this controversial for fans, logic shouldn't just fly out the window for no discernible reason whatsoever, otherwise you don't gain much ground in discussing it; you're just preaching to the choir instead. It's like those SA3 topics at this point. =/

[Your Vest Friend]

Sounds like the most reasonable course of action at this point is to wait for the next public Iizuka interview and ask if the game is canon. :/

[goku262002]

No. He didn't. But people have started saying he did for some reason...

No he was the guy who said 100% Chronicles WAS NOT canon.

Welcome back. Didn't know you started speaking in 2nd person now. You should really hang out with us more...

[Emmett L. Brown]

Well, I don't take canon seriously in that I invest significant time in determining what it really is or fighting for my interpretation with other people who won't be convinced anyway. Again, I've already stated that the canon status of any game is ultimately its most useless quality, except in the narrowest of online discussions where determining what did happen is absolutely necessary to the context. I just figured though, with a subject that's been this controversial for fans, logic shouldn't just fly out the window for no discernible reason whatsoever, otherwise you don't gain much ground in discussing it; you're just preaching to the choir instead. It's like those SA3 topics at this point. =/

Oh come on, that's a defeatist attitude. Just because you haven't been able to convince someone doesn't automatically mean they refuse to be convinced. Sometimes there is no objectively correct answer, and sometimes your logic isn't the only logic at play.

That all Sonic video games are canon is logical to me. It's not logical to you, obviously, but that's doesn't mean either of us is talking nonsense. When you're talking logic, you can have an argument that makes logical sense yet is completely non-factual or based on incorrect assumptions - it's still logic. Your logic is based on assumptions and subjective interpretation, which you freely admit. So is my logic. If we find out that Iizuka's interview meant something entirely different, or that Sonic games conclusively have no canon status on release, then our logic is still logical based on our initial assumptions, even though our arguments fail.

I went into this thread asking why Knuckles Chaotix was considered non-canon, and where that idea originated. I got the answers to both questions, so even though I don't agree that the game can't be canon, this thread has succesfully achieved exactly what it was supposed to. It's a not a win or lose situation, and I apologise if I gave the impression that my goal was to sway the ignorant masses of the glorious truth of Knuckles Chaotix.

I like that game, but it's a pretty weak entry in the series.

[Nepenthe]

It's not defeatist to admit that people aren't usually convinced to the other side in canon arguments because there's not enough official word on the subject anyway and because people have a habit of wanting to defend their own thoughts and opinions as valid for a plethora of reasons that can easily be summed up as "human nature." Again, I think we were all very prepared to stick to our guns on the issue, and even if we weren't, we ended up doing exactly that anyway. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, just that it was a predictable outcome. That be da interweb for you. =P

And while my personal interpretation of the events is subjective, as is everyone else's, I don't think the underlying rationale for my skepticism is. I figure it's simple burden of proof, which I continually maintain is used everywhere from layman conversations about wild claims to more formal outlets like scholarly debate and thus should be upheld here: The positive claim is the one that needs proving, which in this case is "X game is canon," directly analogous to "X man is guilty."

I agree with you completely that the evidence for either side could easily change in the future and thus shake up the argument (though we really should catch Iizuka at another con and just ask him), but this alone doesn't inherently change which side should actively be doing the proving here, hence why I've concluded I have no reason to believe every single spin-off is canon only on the basis that they can be. "They can be" is justification that just wouldn't fly in any other discussion, and this is why I immensely appreciate Verte's efforts to clearly demonstrate that the Storybook series was canon by citing direct story connections to the main installments instead of just leaving it at "it's possible, therefore it is."

Although I apologize myself for implying you had an agenda to convert people going into the topic. That honestly wasn't my intention at all. x3;;

[Solid SOAP]

Considering how haphazardly SEGA treat the canon of this franchise, I don't see why it's even worth discussing. It wasn't considered canon in Sonic Heroes, now all of a sudden it is? It makes no sense, and it isn't worth discussing because there is no evidence towards either view.

[Sparky]

Wait... Didn't Espio know Eggman in Sonic Heroes? And didn't Vector say: "Hey, Knuckles! Use your Power Punches to ..."

How do they know those things if Knuckles' Chaotix isn;t canon.

And Someone on Youtube who uploaded a Playthrough of 'the Fighters with Espio said that he fought like a Ninja.

[Tornado]

Wait... Didn't Espio know Eggman in Sonic Heroes?

The dialogue in Heroes implied that he knew of Eggman. Not that he personally knew him. He said something along the lines of "That's the great villain Doctor Eggman" rather than "That's Doctor Eggman," which is an exceedingly weird thing to say to your buddies when they all supposedly know him as well.

Edited December 19, 2011 by ChristmasJack

[Diogenes]

Wait... Didn't Espio know Eggman in Sonic Heroes?

The guy broadcasted his intent to take over the planet to the entire planet in SA2. He doesn't exactly keep himself a secret.

And didn't Vector say: "Hey, Knuckles! Use your Power Punches to ..."

Tutorial text. Doesn't mean Vector knows Knuckles any more than Omochao saying "press A to jump" means he's aware he's in a video game.

And Someone on Youtube who uploaded a Playthrough of 'the Fighters with Espio said that he fought like a Ninja.

So what?

[Your Vest Friend]

Espio fights like a standard martial artist in Fighters, at best. If anything, I'd say that ninja is the WORST way of describing it (since a ninja's movements are swift and light, which Espio...wasn't).

[Sparky]

The guy broadcasted his intent to take over the planet to the entire planet in SA2. He doesn't exactly keep himself a secret.

Tutorial text. Doesn't mean Vector knows Knuckles any more than Omochao saying "press A to jump" means he's aware he's in a video game.

So what?

[Pawn]

The way he said it made it sound like It was in-story. He didn't say "Switch to Knuckles when he throws the ships, then press the * Button to destroy it!"

I think that would be due to the fact that they're both power characters and therefore share similar abilities in that game.

[Kuzu]

Canon is overrated.

[Yong]

The guy broadcasted his intent to take over the planet to the entire planet in SA2. He doesn't exactly keep himself a secret.

And yet "the greatest detectives in the world" are out of the loop as to who he is pre-Heroes. I'm also in the boat that Espio is the only one at least familiar with Eggman prior to Heroes, so to me Fighters is "canon" while Chaotix is still questionable.

[Your Vest Friend]

If Fighters is canon, it'd have to take place before Espio's ninja training.

[Yong]

If Fighters is canon, it'd have to take place before Espio's ninja training.

Who's to say he wasn't already "in-training"? His tornado jump in Chaotix looks very ninja-esqe to me.

[Your Vest Friend]

His sulking on the ground when he loses doesn't, though.

[Yong]

His sulking on the ground when he loses doesn't, though.

Well that's the in-training ninja for ya.

[Darth InVaders]

In the first few pages people in this thread keep pointing out that Iizukia said they completely rebuilt the Chaotix characters... yet in the same interview he also said that the robot Sonic in Sonic Heroes is a "brand-new villian, very similar to Metal Sonic. We have the original designer here on campus who is updating the character..." - turned out he was only talking about character design but it is still the same Metal Sonic

Furthermore, I want to point out (if it hasn't been already) that the Sonic Heroes Chaotix adhere to the original Chaotix profiles quite well:

Vector continues his love of music - and in the original Chaotix he was looking for a miracle (which seems in line with his big heart thing)

Espio's occupation was a detective in the original Chaotix, this spread to the rest of the members for Heroes

Charmy was never given an age in the original Chaotix (not counting the English version which also claimed that Knuckles was Guardian of Carnival Island which was just about to have its grand opening) - and he doesn't like being made a fool (comically ironic for the character who is scatterbrained in Heroes)

Also look in their first cutscene in Heroes, the wall behind Vector has pictures of Eggman robots. Charmy is the only one to outright say he does not recognize Eggman - and while Vector never said anything indicating he recognizes Eggman, but he also never said anything indicating he didn't recognize him either. Charmy might either be acting like the scatterbrained idiot he is, or he could also be mocking what Espio called him... "the evil genius, Dr. Eggman"

So I don't think the proof that Chaotix is not canon is ironclad.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Darth InVaders

[Sean]

I like referring to Nedroid's stance on this pressing issue:

Everything ... is canon, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff