Why is Chaotix non-canon?

[Emmett L. Brown]

Did Chaotix "explain" Metal Sonic's return? I thought he was just kind of there. Couldn't it still be canon inbetween Ep 2 and Adventure?

It does remind me how I always found it odd anyway that Metal Sonic was the final enemy in Chaotix. It'd be like making a Knuckles spin-off these days and having Shadow as the last boss. Or if they had brought back Wendy Witchcart to be the final boss of Shadow the Hedgehog.

The Japanese instruction manual did go on about Eggman rebuilding Metal Sonic with improvements. Not that those improvements matter, since you never actually got to fight him properly in the game. Metal Sonic Kai was a weak, weak final boss.

Now that you mention it, I wonder if the Metal Sonic inclusion is a relic from the original build of the game that was supposed to be Sonic 4 with Sonic & Tails connected by the same rubber band used in the final game. I guess Eggrobo would be a more logical nemesis for Knuckles - given the fight we got you could switch in Eggrobo for Metal Sonic and nothing would change but the graphics.

[JezMM]

Well, I guess Sonic 4 Ep 2 Metal Sonic suffered the exact same fate as Sonic CD Metal Sonic, death by door. In fact maybe the second encounter with Sonic in Ep 2 inspired Eggman, and those upgrades were mainly door-proofing him for the future.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Well, I guess Sonic 4 Ep 2 Metal Sonic suffered the exact same fate as Sonic CD Metal Sonic, death by door. In fact maybe the second encounter with Sonic in Ep 2 inspired Eggman, and those upgrades were mainly door-proofing him for the future.

[MegaMan_EXE]

Well, they had to have made a Knuckles game sometime.

It's just it's own game to me.

[redhellc]

Or maybe

He can be put in canon by being in the midle of episode 2 and 3, if eggman inded returns for the master emerald(as hinted by the removed secret ending) he could use the park as an distraction for knuckles and go after the emerald. And he could pick metal from the death egg mkII and improve it even more.

[iDEATH]

Having read through the majority of the topic I'm leaning toward non-canon. I wasn't aware of any of this before hand.

I think it's a bit of a shame actually. I'm by no means a fan of the game, I've only played Chaotix once, through an emulator. But I like the idea of games taking place in the sonic universe without Sonic. The idea of adventures involving other characters can only improve the franchise as ar as I can see, by helping to build up character arcs. The idea of Knuckles having friends that none ofthe rest of the gang know is quite realistic (as far as i know the only instance of sonic having met any of them before heroes was Mighty in segasonic, though I doubt that's canon either)

[DavidTL]

In the first few pages people in this thread keep pointing out that Iizukia said they completely rebuilt the Chaotix characters... yet in the same interview he also said that the robot Sonic in Sonic Heroes is a "brand-new villian, very similar to Metal Sonic. We have the original designer here on campus who is updating the character..." - turned out he was only talking about character design but it is still the same Metal Sonic

Furthermore, I want to point out (if it hasn't been already) that the Sonic Heroes Chaotix adhere to the original Chaotix profiles quite well:

Vector continues his love of music - and in the original Chaotix he was looking for a miracle (which seems in line with his big heart thing)

Espio's occupation was a detective in the original Chaotix, this spread to the rest of the members for Heroes

Charmy was never given an age in the original Chaotix (not counting the English version which also claimed that Knuckles was Guardian of Carnival Island which was just about to have its grand opening) - and he doesn't like being made a fool (comically ironic for the character who is scatterbrained in Heroes)

Also look in their first cutscene in Heroes, the wall behind Vector has pictures of Eggman robots. Charmy is the only one to outright say he does not recognize Eggman - and while Vector never said anything indicating he recognizes Eggman, but he also never said anything indicating he didn't recognize him either. Charmy might either be acting like the scatterbrained idiot he is, or he could also be mocking what Espio called him... "the evil genius, Dr. Eggman"

So I don't think the proof that Chaotix is not canon is ironclad.

So. Is there any particular reason why everyone in this topic decided to ignore this post? Especially those who are in favor of the "Chaotix is canon" side of the argument? I mean, the main part of everyone's argument that the game isn't canon comes from a single interview done years ago, and this man points to another part of the same exact interview and...yeah. I'm just confused. Because you can take the interview to go either way. Personally, I've always been under the impression that it was just a case where they wanted to focus on making the game they wanted, and didn't particularly care if they contradicted things along the way. Even though they didn't end up contradicting all that much. They didn't want to get wrapped up in continuity...though I think they were a little misguided there. I think going for the minimalistic storyline of Heroes, they forgot they could establish things with one line. In Sonic Adventure, that was many people's first exposure to Amy Rose, and yet they were able to explain her entire backstory in relation to Sonic in a single sentence...

A couple other things I wanted to point out about all this. First off, the issues with ages...you know, in the same breath where Sonic went from being 16 to 15, Amy went from being 8 to 12. Yet no one says that Sonic CD is not canon because of that. Character's ages should not be used as any form of argument when it comes to canon. Also...why does everyone assume that because of the events of Chaotix, Knuckles would suddenly be bestest friends with everyone in that game? Aside from Knuckles, no one in that game had dealt with Eggman. And no one there went with the intention of dealing with Eggman. Because of the nature of the game, you can't even say who did what! It wasn't all five of them fighting Eggman every single time. It's quite possible that Charmy never met Eggman once in the course of the game, so he would be a bit confused about who this guy is in Heroes. So really, for them not to know about Rouge and Knuckles' strange relationship...that wouldn't be out of the question.

Personally, there isn't much that contradicts the two games aside from a stray line by Charmy (which could be taken either way) and Iizuka's statements (which once again, could be taken either way). The Chaotix aren't meant to be main characters, and they haven't really shown either way if Heroes or Chaotix was the first meeting in any of the subsequent games. All it is now is something to debate about endlessly. And could be changed one way or the other depending on who is in charge.

[iDEATH]

Ah, I'd missed that post. That's interesting, I did kind of think that Iizuka's statement seemed a bit odd, and those points about character notes seem valid.

[Dere]

Just because Iizuka states he "reinvented" the characters, that doesn't mean that Chaotix isn't canon.

And to the people stating that the game can't be canon due to the Chaotix not recognizing Eggman, the series is filled with continuity glitches like that one. The most blatant one being the inconsistency in Blaze's origin between Sonic Rush and Sonic 2006. One would think that only one of either game is canon, but Generations proves that both of them are, as her bios states that she hails from another dimension and she refers to Sonic's world as "this world" backing this up, but Crisis City exists in the game and after one of the missions, Blaze claims to remember it.

Also, there are other examples of the characters having amnesia like the Chaotix example in Heroes, such as Shadow acting like he never saw a Shadow android prior to Shadow the Hedgehog (he saw one in Heroes), and Sonic not remembering the Death Egg in Sonic Battle (in which Eggman built a new one, and when Sonic saw it, he said "So that's this 'Death Egg' Eggman was talking about?" as if he had never heard of one prior to that game, rather than "Darn, the original Death Egg was enough of a headache. Why did he have to build a new one!?").

And even that is a non-issue once you forget the western manuals- the Japanese manual had no age for Charmy, IIRC. In fact, going by the Japanese manual, assuming the canon playthrough is Knuckles and Espio, and doing a bit of a stretch, you can easily fit Chaotix with Heroes.

This very much. People need to get through their heads that they should NEVER believe what the western manuals of the pre-SA1 games say, as they're filled with non-canon BS made up by SoA. For example, Knuckles' Chaotix western manual stated that Knuckles was the guardian of Carnival Island (which doesn't make a lick of sense, as he's supposed to be the guardian of the Floating/Angel Island) and that Robotnik was trying to steal the "Power Stone" (or something like that), which was never seen in-game. Also, it doesn't even mention the Chaos Rings.

The plot in the Japanese manual makes much more sense: it states that Knuckles is the guardian of Angel Island rather than Carnival Island (which it states belongs to Eggman, which makes much more sense as you can see his face plastered in the levels and the park's entrance) and mentions the Master Emerald and the Chaos Emeralds, thus keeping perfect continuity with the rest of the series' games. It also explains the origins of the Chaos Rings, and unlike the Western plot, it doesn't have any mention to a Power Stone that never appears in the games.

It's clear that the game was developed with the Japanese plot in mind, as it features the Chaos Rings rather than the Power Stone.

Hidden Palace. Super Emeralds. Hyper Sonic. These things that have been retconned out of existence.

Sorry, but I must call BS on this. That they were retconned out of existence is mere speculation, not fact. Just because they don't appeared in later games, it doesn't mean that they don't exist - especially considering that later games didn't contradict their existence (Hyper Sonic doesn't appear in modern games because the emeralds must be taken to Hidden Palace and turned into Super Emeralds first for them to grant that transformation, which no one has attempted to do post-S3&K; and Hidden Palace can still exist without being the emeralds' original shrine). Under that logic, anything that was only seen in the classic games (ie: Westside Island) isn't canon.

Moreover, S3&K's story just doesn't work without Hidden Palace. It was a pivotal plot point in the story, as so many importants events took place there: it was there where Sonic and Knuckles fought for the first time, where Eggman stole the Master Emerald from, where Sonic and Knuckles became allies, and where Sonic took a teleporter to Sky Sanctuary (which, as Generations proves, is canon), which he used to reach the Death Egg. Not to mention that the backstories provided by the Japanese manuals of BOTH Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles mention it. Even if you were to say that later games retconned those events into taking place in the emerald shrine seen in SA1, it still wouldn't work, as that would leave a huge plothole in how Sonic reached Sky Sanctuary. You can't just say "HP never existed", it would be as bad as saying "there was never a Egg Carrier in SA1". It's so much easier to just say "there are two emerald shrines: the one seen in SA1, and the one located in Hidden Palace" that I don't get why some people insist on denying HP's existence.

Logically, you're the one making a positive claim in this instance, that being "Chaotix is canon", so why in the world are we saddled with the task of proving you wrong? That's not how this works. In fact, since you freely admit there's no definitive evidence for either side of the spectrum, even with Sonic Team's word into play, what's the point of this topic now?

You've got that backwards. You're the one making a positive claim - that one of Sonic's official games isn't canon. Thus YOU are the person who owes us proof.

By your logic, I can say -insert random Sonic game's name here- isn't canon without any evidence, and unless you prove it's canon, my opinion is more valid than yours.

Out of curiosity, what evidence has their been to suggest Hidden Palace has been retconned? Super Emeralds and Hyper Sonic are both given no-brainers, but I never really saw anything too problematic with Hidden Palace?

I fail to see how the Super Emeralds and Hyper Sonic aren't canon. There's NOTHING in the games disproving their existence. Just because they aren't used anymore it doesn't that they don't exist. Like I said above, Hyper Sonic is a transformation induced by the Super Emeralds, which are in turn a powered up version of Chaos Emeralds created when they're taken to the shrine in Hidden Palace along with the Master Emerald, and the fact NO ONE tried to do this in post-S3&K games explains why they aren't seen in modern games. Ergo, there's no contradiction whatsoever regarding Hyper Sonic and the Super Emeralds.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Dere

[Vec]

After all what happened in KC, it calls my attention that only Espio knew Eggman in Heroes (*Egg Hawk appears* Espio: It's the evil genius Dr. Eggman" and you know the rest...) Maybe:

-Only Knuckles/Espio happened in the game

-Espio for Episode III

[Xenos]

I fail to see how the Super Emeralds and Hyper Sonic not being canon is a no-brainer. There's NOTHING in later games disproving their existence. Just because they aren't used anymore it doesn't that they don't exist.

Sorry to cut this part out by itself.

They might still exist, but the very fact that they haven't been used since S3&K is a pretty big pointer to the fact that we can consider them non-canon.

Hell, you can get the proper ending of S3&K without the Super Emeralds or Hyper Sonic. It's basically just a bonus for going the extra mile. For all we know it wasn't a real part of the story. Because there was no explanation about how the emeralds turn into Super emeralds, and there was no explanation of why Sonic doesn't just bring the Emeralds back to Hidden Palace to turn himself Hyper and make his battles a thousand times easier.

It just doesn't seem like they are a real part of the story.

[Dere]

Sorry to cut this part out by itself.

They might still exist, but the very fact that they haven't been used since S3&K is a pretty big pointer to the fact that we can consider them non-canon.

Under that logic, anything that was only seen in the classic games can be considered non-canon.

Hell, you can get the proper ending of S3&K without the Super Emeralds or Hyper Sonic. It's basically just a bonus for going the extra mile.

No you can't. The "Super Sonic" ending in S3&K ends up with a short cutscene showing the Eggrobo later seen in Knuckles' story appearing from a bunch of destroyed badniks, leading up to Knuckles' story. And the only ending in Knuckles' story that can be canon is the one in which he collects the Super Emeralds, as the other ones result in Angel Island descending to the sea.

For all we know it wasn't a real part of the story. Because there was no explanation about how the emeralds turn into Super emeralds

There's an explanation: when you take all the emeralds to the HP shrine, they react to the shrine and the Master Emerald and are transformed. Ergo, the explanation is simply that the HP shrine combined with the Master Emerald have the power to turn the Chaos Emeralds into Super Emeralds. What more explanation do you need? The emeralds are supposed to be mystical objects with magical properties, not something you can come up with a scientific explanation for. There isn't a explanation as to why they transform Sonic into Super Sonic either, other than that they have the power to do that.

Besides, the Super Emeralds only appeared in S3&K, and it's kind of hard to give detailed explanations in a game that has no dialogue whatsoever.

and there was no explanation of why Sonic doesn't just bring the Emeralds back to Hidden Palace to turn himself Hyper and make his battles a thousand times easier.

It's not like Angel Island is visited in recent games. Only in SA1, and Sonic couldn't take the emeralds to Hidden Palace and go Hyper because he didn't have access to the ones Chaos had absorbed.

Also, the Master Emerald is needed to turn the emeralds into Super Emeralds (as you see it shining every time you "create" a Super Emerald, indicating that it's involved in the process), and Knuckles no longer keeps it in Hidden Palace.

Besides, Sonic usually doesn't have all emeralds until the end of the story, and by then, the situation is so critical that he wouldn't have time to travel to Angel Island anyway.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Dere

[Xenos]

Under that logic, anything that was only seen in the classic games can be considered non-canon.

No you can't. The "Super Sonic" ending in S3&K ends up with a short cutscene showing the Eggrobo later seen in Knuckles' story appearing from a bunch of destroyed badniks, leading up to Knuckles' story. And the only ending in Knuckles' story that can be canon is the one in which he collects the Super Emeralds, as the other ones result in Angel Island descending to the sea.

There's an explanation: when you take all the emeralds to the HP shrine, they react to the shrine and the Master Emerald and are transformed. Ergo, the explanation is simply that the HP shrine combined with the Master Emerald have the power to turn the Chaos Emeralds into Super Emeralds. What more explanation do you need? The emeralds are supposed to be mystical objects with magical properties, not something you can come up with a scientific explanation for. There isn't a explanation as to why they transform Sonic into Super Sonic either, other than that they have the power to do that.

Besides, the Super Emeralds only appeared in S3&K, and it's kind of hard to give detailed explanations in a game that has no dialogue whatsoever.

It's not like Angel Island is visited in recent games. Only in SA1, and Sonic couldn't take the emeralds to Hidden Palace and go Hyper because he didn't have access to the ones Chaos had absorbed.

Also, the Master Emerald is needed to turn the emeralds into Super Emeralds (as you see it shining every time you "create" a Super Emerald, indicating that it's involved in the process), and Knuckles no longer keeps it in Hidden Palace.

Besides, Sonic usually doesn't have all emeralds until the end of the story, and by then, the situation is so critical that he wouldn't have time to travel to Angel Island anyway.

What do you mean anything seen in the classic games are non-canon?

Firstly, most of the things from the Classic games have made proper reappearances throughout the years, so i don't see how you came to that conclusion. I'll give you that other one though.

Yes, a very nice explanation that is never ever shown again. And even then, what would be the point? Also, you shot yourself in the foot.

Instead of Hidden palace, a well built fortress where it is quite a trek to get to the Master Emerald shrine from there, Knuckles keeps it atop a rather open summit. And that place was actually worse. Not only was Eggman able to steal it twice as easily, Rouge was able to steal it as well. Resulting in Knuckles in a lass ditch effort, having to break it. How much sense does that make?

And who said Sonic had to wait the last minute to transform the Chaos Emeralds into Super Emeralds. As far as I know, in S3&K, after you transform them into their super state, they stay that way the rest of the entire game.

The issues here is Knuckles doesn't use hidden palace, even if it'd make sense, and Sonic doesn't simply use the Super Emeralds to power himself up further.

And even then, Hyper Sonic is pretty pointless anyway. He's basically the Super Saiyan 2 as Super Sonic is the Super Saiyan. And he'd be a rainbow super sonic with a slight speed up and maybe a double jump that serves as an enemy killing screen flash. (Although I doubt that would be too fun in 3D games)

It isn't needed all that much anyway.

[Dere]

What do you mean anything seen in the classic games are non-canon?

Firstly, most of the things from the Classic games have made proper reappearances throughout the years, so i don't see how you came to that conclusion. I'll give you that other one though.

I said things where were seen only in the classic games (such as South Island).

Instead of Hidden palace, a well built fortress where it is quite a trek to get to the Master Emerald shrine from there, Knuckles keeps it atop a rather open summit. And that place was actually worse. Not only was Eggman able to steal it twice as easily, Rouge was able to steal it as well. Resulting in Knuckles in a lass ditch effort, having to break it. How much sense does that make?

Which is probably why Sega had Knuckles keep it there. It made the plots of the Adventure series easier to write: no need to bother having Eggman and Rouge break up into an underground palace. It doesn't make much sense in-universe, but it makes the writers' job easier, and prevents early cutscenes from being too long (and potentially confusing for players who never played S3&K and thus don't know about HP).

And I could say "Chaos Control isn't canon, otherwise Sonic would just use it to cross each stage rather than running through it".

Also, you create more plotholes by denying HP's existence than by considering it canon. I'm going to quote myself:

S3&K's story just doesn't work without Hidden Palace. It was a pivotal plot point in the story, as so many importants events took place there: it was there where Sonic and Knuckles fought for the first time, where Eggman stole the Master Emerald from, where Sonic and Knuckles became allies, and where Sonic took a teleporter to Sky Sanctuary (which, as Generations proves, is canon), which he used to reach the Death Egg. Not to mention that the backstories provided by the Japanese manuals of BOTH Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles mention it. Even if you were to say that later games retconned those events into taking place in the emerald shrine seen in SA1, it still wouldn't work, as that would leave a huge plothole in how Sonic reached Sky Sanctuary. You can't just say "HP never existed", it would be as bad as saying "there was never a Egg Carrier in SA1". It's so much easier to just say "there are two emerald shrines: the one seen in SA1, and the one located in Hidden Palace" that I don't get why some people insist on denying HP's existence.

And who said Sonic had to wait the last minute to transform the Chaos Emeralds into Super Emeralds. As far as I know, in S3&K, after you transform them into their super state, they stay that way the rest of the entire game.

I have no idea what part of my post you're replying to, or what point you're trying to bring up, but I never said anything about Sonic having to wait the last minute to transform the Chaos Emeralds into Super Emeralds. I said Sonic usually doesn't have access to all the emeralds until about the end (ie: before fighting the final boss), and by then, he doesn't have time to travel to Hidden Palace and turn the emeralds into Super Emeralds.

And even then, Hyper Sonic is pretty pointless anyway. He's basically the Super Saiyan 2 as Super Sonic is the Super Saiyan. And he'd be a rainbow super sonic with a slight speed up and maybe a double jump that serves as an enemy killing screen flash. (Although I doubt that would be too fun in 3D games)

It isn't needed all that much anyway.

Which is why Sega no longer uses Hyper Sonic and the Super Emeralds: because they aren't needed, not because they aren't canon.

Plus, how would the plots handle the two transformations? Have Sonic transform into Super Sonic in the middle of the story, and then later transform into Hyper Sonic at the end? Use only Hyper Sonic (who looks ridiculous... Disco Super Sonic, anyone?)? Having just Super Sonic keeps it simple.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Dere

[Xenos]

I said things where were seen only in the classic games (such as South Island).

Which is probably why Sega had Knuckles keep it there. It made the plots of the Adventure series easier to write: no need to bother having Eggman and Rouge break up into an underground palace. It doesn't make much sense in-universe, but it makes the writers' job easier, and prevents early cutscenes from being too long (and potentially confusing for players who never played S3&K and thus don't know about HP).

And I could say "Chaos Control isn't canon, otherwise Sonic and Shadow would just use it to cross each stage rather than running through it".

Also, you create more plotholes by denying HP's existence than by considering it canon. I'm going to quote myself:

I have no idea what part of my post you're replying to, or what point you're trying to bring up, but I never said anything about Sonic having to wait the last minute to transform the Chaos Emeralds into Super Emeralds. I said Sonic usually doesn't have access to all the emeralds until about the end (ie: before fighting the final boss), and by then, he doesn't have time to travel to Hidden Palace and turn the emeralds into Super Emeralds.

Which is why Sega no longer uses Hyper Sonic and the Super Emeralds: because they aren't needed, not because they aren't canon.

Wait, so we don't get a good, in depth showing of Hidden Palace if it is oh so integral to the main story just so the writers don't have to stop being lazy? Because saying HP doesn't appear because it makes it easier on the writers and let them just scribble anything there isn't such a good substitute. And honestly, if they gave a short explanation on what HP is I'm sure most new players wouldn't mind and hardly get confused much.

And you could say that, but Sonic is shown to not have completely great control over Chaos Energy as Shadow does. And even then, Shadow did indeed do as you described in his own game and it was hardly too game breaking. (Albeit the mechanic could fuck something up in a playthrough)

Okay, true. But why can't Sonic just transform the Emeralds into their Super counterparts outside of a game? Maybe before a game even began. What's stopping the writers from doing that, other than the fact that Hyper Sonic is probably not going to reappear ever again?

SEGA doesn't use Hyper Sonic because he isn't needed. So basically, he hardly exists anymore by now.

EDIT: Although...we are just gonna go back and forth now, might as well stop. Since we are derailing the thread at the moment.

Edited May 27, 2012 by Xenos

[Dere]

EDIT: Although...we are just gonna go back and forth now, might as well stop. Since we are derailing the thread at the moment.

Alright then. But since you didn't explain any of the plotholes caused by removing HP from continuity that I mentioned, or why my explanation that Sega didn't want to make the early cutscenes too long and convoluted is incorrect... the only thing we can agree to is to disagree

[Scorch]

I've heard about the Iizuka interview quite a few times over the years, and up until now, I never saw it for myself. Having grown up with Knuckles' Chaotix and thoroughly enjoyed it like the rest of the classics, I just cannot find the words to describe how much it utterly sickens me how they're going out of the way to pretend that game never happened. Not only that, but Iizuka outright insults peoples' intelligence by claiming that they were new characters, simply because they were given a redesign. Going by that logic, I guess that must mean Modern Sonic, Tails, Amy, Robotnik, etc. are entirely different characters from their classic counterparts, too!

I can't say I understand why so many people are buying into this, considering the fact that this is the same guy who claimed that Casino Street (and the other Sonic 4: Episode I stages, too, if I'm not mistaken; I'll link to that interview if I ever find it again) weren't based off any of the previous Zones in the series, and tons of other similarly false claims like that one. In other words, this guy has a history of telling utter lies and BS in interviews that only serve to insult peoples' intelligence.

Strangely enough, though... I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, but during the Last Story of Sonic Heroes, Vector somehow seemed to know Knuckles, as well as having knowledge of his "powerful punches", even though they supposedly never met prior to that moment.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Scorch

[Marcello]

I can't say I understand why so many people are buying into this, considering the fact that this is the same guy who claimed that Casino Street (and the others Sonic 4: Episode I stages, too, if I'm not mistaken; I'll link to yhat interview if I ever find it again) weren't based off any of the previous Zones in the series, and tons of other similarly false claims like that one. In other words, this guy has a history of telling utter lies and BS in interviews that only serve to insult peoples' intelligence.

Pretty sure that was Ken Balough.

[Scorch]

Ah, I see. If it was, then my apologies. But Iizuka has still been known to say weird things like that in his interviews, too.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Sorry, but I must call BS on this. That they were retconned out of existence is mere speculation, not fact. Just because they don't appeared in later games, it doesn't mean that they don't exist - especially considering that later games didn't contradict their existence (Hyper Sonic doesn't appear in modern games because the emeralds must be taken to Hidden Palace and turned into Super Emeralds first for them to grant that transformation, which no one has attempted to do post-S3&K; and Hidden Palace can still exist without being the emeralds' original shrine). Under that logic, anything that was only seen in the classic games (ie: Westside Island) isn't canon.

Moreover, S3&K's story just doesn't work without Hidden Palace. It was a pivotal plot point in the story, as so many importants events took place there: it was there where Sonic and Knuckles fought for the first time, where Eggman stole the Master Emerald from, where Sonic and Knuckles became allies, and where Sonic took a teleporter to Sky Sanctuary (which, as Generations proves, is canon), which he used to reach the Death Egg. Not to mention that the backstories provided by the Japanese manuals of BOTH Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles mention it. Even if you were to say that later games retconned those events into taking place in the emerald shrine seen in SA1, it still wouldn't work, as that would leave a huge plothole in how Sonic reached Sky Sanctuary. You can't just say "HP never existed", it would be as bad as saying "there was never a Egg Carrier in SA1". It's so much easier to just say "there are two emerald shrines: the one seen in SA1, and the one located in Hidden Palace" that I don't get why some people insist on denying HP's existence.

You know what? You're right. You're completely right. You've won me over with your persuasive argument.

I really can't say that any of those things have been retconned out of existence. But I still expect we'll never see Rosy the Rascal, Super Emeralds, Nack the Weasel, Bark the Polar Bear, Hyper Sonic, the Hidden Palace, or Mighty the Armadillo ever again.

They might not get retconned out of existence, but they do get abandoned. Well, okay those posters in Generations' City Escape remake were a very nice callback.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Grumpy Old Guy

[Darth InVaders]

So. Is there any particular reason why everyone in this topic decided to ignore this post? Especially those who are in favor of the "Chaotix is canon" side of the argument? I mean, the main part of everyone's argument that the game isn't canon comes from a single interview done years ago, and this man points to another part of the same exact interview and...yeah. I'm just confused. Because you can take the interview to go either way. Personally, I've always been under the impression that it was just a case where they wanted to focus on making the game they wanted, and didn't particularly care if they contradicted things along the way. Even though they didn't end up contradicting all that much. They didn't want to get wrapped up in continuity...though I think they were a little misguided there. I think going for the minimalistic storyline of Heroes, they forgot they could establish things with one line. In Sonic Adventure, that was many people's first exposure to Amy Rose, and yet they were able to explain her entire backstory in relation to Sonic in a single sentence...

A couple other things I wanted to point out about all this. First off, the issues with ages...you know, in the same breath where Sonic went from being 16 to 15, Amy went from being 8 to 12. Yet no one says that Sonic CD is not canon because of that. Character's ages should not be used as any form of argument when it comes to canon. Also...why does everyone assume that because of the events of Chaotix, Knuckles would suddenly be bestest friends with everyone in that game? Aside from Knuckles, no one in that game had dealt with Eggman. And no one there went with the intention of dealing with Eggman. Because of the nature of the game, you can't even say who did what! It wasn't all five of them fighting Eggman every single time. It's quite possible that Charmy never met Eggman once in the course of the game, so he would be a bit confused about who this guy is in Heroes. So really, for them not to know about Rouge and Knuckles' strange relationship...that wouldn't be out of the question.

Personally, there isn't much that contradicts the two games aside from a stray line by Charmy (which could be taken either way) and Iizuka's statements (which once again, could be taken either way). The Chaotix aren't meant to be main characters, and they haven't really shown either way if Heroes or Chaotix was the first meeting in any of the subsequent games. All it is now is something to debate about endlessly. And could be changed one way or the other depending on who is in charge.

Ah, I'd missed that post. That's interesting, I did kind of think that Iizuka's statement seemed a bit odd, and those points about character notes seem valid.

Wow my post got recognition. Thanks guys

And to update, I still don't see anything contradicting Chaotix & the points that I made and putting it out of canon. Not even Sonic 4's Metal Episode which shows Metal being revived after its defeat in Sonic CD since Metal's bio in the Japanese Chaotix manual says something along the lines of "A Sonic-shaped robot made by Dr. Eggman, using the Main and Sub CPUs retrived from the wreckage of the previous version beaten by Sonic. Loaded into a spare body, it was reborn using Dark Ring Power." All Chaotix has to do is come after Sonic 4 and the Metal Sonic Episode and it's canon.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Darth InVaders

[DavidTL]

Right, since you are all having a fight over the Super Emeralds.

The term "Super Emerald" is really something that is only for us, the player. The Super Emeralds are nothing more than the restored Chaos Emeralds. In the Japanese manual for Sonic 3, it is made clear that Knuckles is the guardian of a set of seven Chaos Emeralds, each in their own individual shrine located on Angel Island. However, when the Death Egg strikes the island, they all disappear. Knuckles is then tricked by Eggman, where the doctor tells Knuckles that Sonic is the one who is after the emeralds. Lo and behold, what happens when Sonic shows up? Knuckles punches him and steals the Chaos Emeralds. Chaos Emeralds he believes are his.

Sonic Adventure made the point of showing that the Chaos Emeralds, when at the altar in the past, were much bigger than what you see for the rest of the game. Before anyone brings up the magically shifting Master Emerald of Sonic Adventure 2, remember that game does play loose with continuity. The first Adventure did make the conscious effort of trying to link itself to the originals. The Super Emeralds that we see in Sonic 3 & Knuckles are simply the combined versions of the emeralds Sonic collected in Sonic 2 and the emeralds Knuckles was guarding prior to Sonic 3. There are only seven Chaos Emeralds, which has been stated time and time again. There are only seven in the past, there are only seven in any other game. One can assume that, when Perfect Chaos went crazy once upon a time, something happened that split the emeralds in half, and that Sonic was destined to restore them to their original state. Heck, they even say that the emeralds have two sides to them in Adventure.