Humans in Sonic Games

[RDNexus]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.

I too like humans and anthros co-existing in society and harmony, but I'd also like to see a place or two with only anthros, just to make it like there's as much anthros as there are humans. It'd also be a nice way to show more anthros in upcoming games...

Also, a nice mix of Adventure, SonicX and Storybook Series, that'd be, to me, the best combo in human design.

[batson]

Regarding the nature of humans during the classic era, i just want to remind everyone that while of course humans existed in Sonic's world even back during the classic era, the thing to remember is, we didn't see them. So the statement "there were no humans in Sonic games other than Eggman during the classic era" is in fact pretty much a correct statement, and not some delusional statement made only by people influenced by SatAM. The sole other human we saw in the games before SA was witchcart, who appeared in one single, obscure game.

Now, i dont feel that here shouldn't be humans in the series other than Eggman myself (im prerfectly fine with humans appearing). But it still bugs me when people try to paint the notion the Sonic video game series was virtually free of humans sans Eggman as some sort of misconception. Because that is exactly how it was. Whenever Sega wanted to introduce a new character back in the old days, they always went with an animal. Eggman being the only major human in the series was apparently (according to Yuju Naka) even an element that was intended to further the environmental aesop of the series.

So SA did ineed bring about a big change in the series when more humans started to appear. The people who wish for the series to return to a state where almost solely animal characters sans Eggman are seen are not some fan-fictioners who delude themselves into thinking the series used to be something that it never was. They are merely people who want the series to return to its roots in this regard.

Edited December 22, 2011 by batson

[Space☆Tomoki]

Basically, keep the humans, but redesign them a bit, and throw in more animal people so there's more balance and diversity in the population of the different locales in Sonic's world. For human designs, I think there should be some humans drawn in Yuji Uekawa's art style, to keep the art styles between humans and animal people more consistent.

Here's an example of humans drawn in Yuji Uekawa's style:

[Dr. Mechano]

Eggman being the only major human in the series was apparently (according to Yuju Naka) even an element that was intended to further the environmental aesop of the series.

Problem is, this environmental message was broken from the very beginning precisely because the animals had human-level intelligence.

In Sonic 1, Eggman invades industrious cities Spring Yard and Star Light. Now, even if you want to make the argument that animals lived there rather than humans, it's still a modern city that necessitated some deforestation and consumption of resources for its very existence. This is an unavoidable conclusion.

Sonic 2? Even the SoA manual says that Eggman took over the factories and cities, not that he built them from scratch. In other words, whether the population of Westside Island was animals or humans, they had factories and cities. Chemical Plant? Casino Night? Oil Ocean? Those were all owned by the planet's precious nature-loving population, whether they were animals or humans makes no difference ultimately.

And it's not like the airplane-owning Sonic or machine-building Tails are anti-technology luddites either; Their lifestyle is extremely "human" in nature, even in the Genesis era.

The problem with Eggman representing an environmental message is that nothing he does really focuses on the environment. He's bad because he wants to take over the world, not because of a little pollution that occurs as collateral damage while he's trying to meet that end. If- hypothetically- Eggman was trying to take over the world in a way that didn't pollute and didn't utilize animal power sources, he'd still be a bad guy because of his aspirations for conquest. Without the world domination angle, he'd just be a greedy businessman, and someone who's more misguided than outright evil. The series has clearly presented technology and industry (Even things like chemical plants and oil rigs) in a neutral or even positive light, with the only evil examples being killer world-conquering robots, which- incidentally- aren't a thing in the real world, and make for a curious subject to draw real-world environmental parallels to.

In short, I think using humanity as an environmental villain when the animals completely live and act like humans themselves presents a broken message. Whether that was Naka's intention originally or not, it is for the best that the series has shifted away from that, because the intended moral falls apart if you examine it even somewhat closely.

[RDNexus]

Basically, keep the humans, but redesign them a bit, and throw in more animal people so there's more balance and diversity in the population of the different locales in Sonic's world. For human designs, I think there should be some humans drawn in Yuji Uekawa's art style, to keep the art styles between humans and animal people more consistent.

Here's an example of humans drawn in Yuji Uekawa's style:

OMG!!! So much win in this artwork!

Uekawa-san! Please, present us with existing human characters in this style!

This would be a real win in the series!

[Dantemustdie00]

Here's an example of humans drawn in Yuji Uekawa's style:

Interesting, that's a somewhat rare image.

Also we can't forget the other games he done the main art for like Billy Hatcher, those are also good examples of what his humans would look like (well humans in bird suits, lol).

Edited December 22, 2011 by Dantemustdie00

[Your Vest Friend]

I don't like the look of that Uekawa human, to be honest.

[countn00bula]

Ugh... Miku looks weird in that pic :/

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Regarding the nature of humans during the classic era, i just want to remind everyone that while of course humans existed in Sonic's world even back during the classic era, the thing to remember is, we didn't see them. So the statement "there were no humans in Sonic games other than Eggman during the classic era" is in fact pretty much a correct statement, and not some delusional statement made only by people influenced by SatAM. The sole other human we saw in the games before SA was witchcart, who appeared in one single, obscure game.

That same statement could be used to claim that there were no echidnas, bats, cats, birds of prey, chao, alligators, bees, chameleons, or even other hedgehogs other than Sonic.

So the statement of there not being humans is NOT correct than it is ambigious. If you can't prove either one or the other, that does not make either statement true.

Now, i dont feel that here shouldn't be humans in the series other than Eggman myself (im prerfectly fine with humans appearing). But it still bugs me when people try to paint the notion the Sonic video game series was virtually free of humans sans Eggman as some sort of misconception. Because that is exactly how it was. Whenever Sega wanted to introduce a new character back in the old days, they always went with an animal. Eggman being the only major human in the series was apparently (according to Yuju Naka) even an element that was intended to further the environmental aesop of the series.

Where did Yuji Naka claim that? Because that same Yuji Naka was still around when humans started appearing in greater numbers, and apparently he didn't have problem with going against that element he intended.

You think that if he wanted Eggman to be the only major human then he would stand by what he said.

So SA did ineed bring about a big change in the series when more humans started to appear. The people who wish for the series to return to a state where almost solely animal characters sans Eggman are seen are not some fan-fictioners who delude themselves into thinking the series used to be something that it never was. They are merely people who want the series to return to its roots in this regard.

I don't buy it. That was never an important element of the Sonic series roots than it is a petty backlash against the change in having more than one human around. Very few people complained about humans being around in the Adventures, and heck, they didn't even complain much about the human soldiers being around in ShTH (the aliens may have been the bigger target). Up until Sonic 06 started making them more realistic and introduced Elise into the game as a major character did the backlash started making itself more vocal and demanded even fiercer return to the series roots, but at that point many people were scapegoating anything they found to be a problem (which was often another way of saying "I don't like this, let's get rid of it" than having actual substance).

Now I'm not going to say that those people advocating this are deluding themselves over this, but they are reaching way beyond their reach in claiming that this series never had humans other than Eggman. Them making Eggman the sole exception doesn't help their case either when the argument is turned back against them. It's no different from the other side reaching and using the ambiguity of the humans not being present as a way to claim that they may have been around.

This series started with both a single animal and a single man as the main cast, and it just expanded from there. To have a problem with one but not the other is being really petty.

EDIT: Also, the fact that the initial concepts of Sonic had him with a human girlfriend makes it more questionable whether they intended one major human or if they even cared at all.

Edited December 23, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Space☆Tomoki]

Interesting, that's a somewhat rare image.

Also we can't forget the other games he done the main art for like Billy Hatcher, those are also good examples of what his humans would look like (well humans in bird suits, lol).

Edited December 23, 2011 by Winter-Man Noir

[NiGHTS]

I gotta say, the way the humans looked (more cartoony) in Unleashed, I liked alot better. In 06 they tried to make it more real, and it showed it didn't fit. Also, in the Black Knight, I think that is another good example of a human that works well in a Sonic plot.

[RDNexus]

I gotta say, the way the humans looked (more cartoony) in Unleashed, I liked alot better. In 06 they tried to make it more real, and it showed it didn't fit. Also, in the Black Knight, I think that is another good example of a human that works well in a Sonic plot.

That's the general thought here, 06 truly failed with humans' in-game models, they looked really bad...

Like I said before, Unleashed wasn't close to my favorites, a mix between Adventure, SonicX and Uekawa-style could be much more acceptable by the masses, don't you think?

[Marcello]

I don't like the realistic one in 06. At the same time, I'm not a huge fan of the Unleashed humans either. I want them cartoony, but not that extreme. I think Adventure 2 had pretty good humans.

Although, I don't actually think humans need to be around at all.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't like the realistic one in 06. At the same time, I'm not a huge fan of the Unleashed humans either. I want them cartoony, but not that extreme. I think Adventure 2 had pretty good humans.

SA2 looked like it was closer to Sonic 06's humans but being of lower quality.

Exactly why do you not want them cartoony when the series characters are very cartoony themselves?

Although, I don't actually think humans need to be around at all.

Sidestepping Eggman's contradiction with that, humans don't not need to to be around either. They're either present one game or absent so its not like their presence is a bad thing.

[Solid SOAP]

I don't think humans are really necessary anymore, but when they're included in games that take on a more "earthly" art style I think they should retain their Unleashed designs.

[Marcello]

SA2 looked like it was closer to Sonic 06's humans but being of lower quality.

Exactly why do you not want them cartoony when the series characters are very cartoony themselves?

No, they're clearly cartoony. I don't see how someone can overlook that. I've had this discussion with Shadic in another topic and it definitely has nothing to do with graphic quality. They're supposed to be cartoony.

Sidestepping Eggman's contradiction with that, humans don't not need to to be around either. They're either present one game or absent so its not like their presence is a bad thing.

Would you cut it out with the Eggman contradiction? Of course I don't mean him. You don't have to bring that up every time someone says they don't humans.

And when I say they don't need to be around, I mean for me personally. I don't care for them enough to want them to be around.

[VO.SUPER]

No, they're clearly cartoony. I don't see how someone can overlook that. I've had this discussion with Shadic in another topic and it definitely has nothing to do with graphic quality. They're supposed to be cartoony.

I charge to disagree. The only thing that is unrealistic about the humans in SA2 are their eyes, and those just creep me out. Their bodies, they're faces, are pretty much all bad attempts at realism.

It is obvious that these humans are flawed attempts at realism, and they were the only things that could be accomplished with the technology of the Dreamcast, and it's obvious that as Sonic evolved, SEGA continued to try and evolve their human designs to become more realistic.

[Pawn]

I think the inclusion of humans can be very useful in establishing a worldwide threat, and one that people can more readily identify with. It's interesting to see the public's reaction when Eggman executes his latest scheme. I feel it makes him a bigger villain. Heroes felt very odd without them, considering Eggman's fleet would likely have encountered some resistance from a human air force. Colours could have benefited from one or two in the background. It's peculiar that the theme park was empty when, judging from Eggman's announcements, it was open for business.

The idea of adding generic bipedal animals to the series doesn't feel right to me. I like that Sonic and his friends are a rare breed in their world. Still, I'm not entirely against the idea. I honestly haven't given it much thought.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Lungo

[RDNexus]

I thought about something...

Why can't we look around places like DeviantArt for designs of humans that you guys feel could adapt better to the Sonic Games?

I can't do it myself since my net doesn't seem to like sites with many pics, only two or three of twenty or more usually appear...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No, they're clearly cartoony. I don't see how someone can overlook that. I've had this discussion with Shadic in another topic and it definitely has nothing to do with graphic quality. They're supposed to be cartoony.

How in the hell are the humans here cartoony?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyWtzGMimck

Cartoony would have stylized proportions, i.e. like the ones in Unleashed. The ones in the video above are no where near cartoony as you claim them to be. Now, you don't have to like Unleashed's style of humans, but your not going to claim that SA2's humans were cartoony and there's barely any cartoony elements too them aside from not being realistic enough.

Would you cut it out with the Eggman contradiction? Of course I don't mean him. You don't have to bring that up every time someone says they don't humans

No, but that's why I said I was side stepping it. But the less specific people are about it, the more likely I'm going to bring it up.

And when I say they don't need to be around, I mean for me personally. I don't care for them enough to want them to be around.

So going by this, it just doesn't matter to you then?

Edited December 24, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Scar]

SA2's humans are in the uncanny valley. Same with 06's humans. They very clearly are supposed to be realisitic, but they are just not well enough designed to be realistic. Graphical limitations.

[Burnt Ash]

SA2's humans are in the uncanny valley. Same with 06's humans. They very clearly are supposed to be realisitic, but they are just not well enough designed to be realistic. Graphical limitations.

SA2 can get somewhat of a pass for that seeing as it was working with older hardware, but they could have done better with 06's humans.

[Marcello]

How in the hell are the humans here cartoony?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyWtzGMimck

Cartoony would have stylized proportions, i.e. like the ones in Unleashed. The ones in the video above are no where near cartoony as you claim them to be. Now, you don't have to like Unleashed's style of humans, but your not going to claim that SA2's humans were cartoony and there's barely any cartoony elements too them aside from not being realistic enough.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Except no. They're different types of cartoony, but SA2's are cartoony, albeit not nearly n as cartoony as Unleashed's.

Edited December 25, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Soniman]

Good lord the president is fucking hideous.