Humans in Sonic Games

[Dummy Bear]

Except yeah. Just as there are different types and attempts of cartoony, there are different types and attempts at realism. But SA2s hardly comes close to the cartoony spectrum.

This guy?

I think you reaching here, because I'm still not buying it.

Graphical limitations or no (which has a lot to do with it when it's that technology responsible for rendering this stuff in the first place and not everyone does it the same way), SA2s humans are far from being cartoony. They're practically on par with the humans in ShTH, from which the president still retains his original look he had in SA2 and where they tried to carry humans in a more realistic level. The only proportions that aren't as realistic are the face, but that alone does not make it cartoony unless you're going to apply that blanket to anything simply less realistic than other things, and that would be incredibly shallow to boot when one feature is off while most everything else is not. You might as well consider anything that isn't realisitc cartoony simply because of that.

There are plenty of things that came before SA2 that have more realisitcally proportion features of humans, architecture or whatnot. That doesn't detract whatever direction they were going simply because one group did it before another one for their game.

I have a hard time believing that SA2's humans were meant to be cartoony if not because of the fact that they kept trying to go further into realism as the series kept moving before going to a more cartoony look.

For example, Metal Gear Solid (pre-Twin Snakes) came out before either of these games and it clearly tries to take a realisitic direction. Am I suppose to consider it cartoony because it's facial features aren't real enough?

Oh really? Because from where I stand, claiming that SA2's humans are cartoony or trying to be is just as ridiculous.

[Sparky]

Is there any Sonic Human from any game/continuity that looks like Riku from Kingdom Hearts?

Because We have Chris (Sora) and Elise (Kairi).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I wouldn't say cartoony, but I would say that humans had some exaggerated proportions. Just take a look at the President's hands and feet.

[Dummy Bear]

In SA2?

That could be a number of things, from limitations to unintentionally exaggerating them, but I'm not going to make guess over which one it was. Hands and feet are the hardest things to draw, much less model in 3D and animate, so we can't make any assumptions here.

[RDNexus]

Is there any Sonic Human from any game/continuity that looks like Riku from Kingdom Hearts? Because We have Chris (Sora) and Elise (Kairi).

LOL, is that a coincidence?

It might be nice if it weren't.

[Marcello]

This guy?

I think you reaching here, because I'm still not buying it.

Well then you and I don't see eye to eye on cartoonyness. I'm definitely not reaching.

Graphical limitations or no (which has a lot to do with it when it's that technology responsible for rendering this stuff in the first place and not everyone does it the same way), SA2s humans are far from being cartoony. They're practically on par with the humans in ShTH, from which the president still retains his original look he had in SA2 and where they tried to carry humans in a more realistic level. The only proportions that aren't very realistic are the face, but that alone does not make it cartoony (nor does it come close to it) unless you're going to apply such a blanket definition to anything simply less realistic than other things, and that would be incredibly shallow to boot when one feature is off while most everything else is not. You might as well consider anything that isn't realisitc cartoony simply because of that.

Also his body isn't totally realistic. Just much more than Unleashed's I can't find a picture, but even if I did you wouldn't agree withe me.

There are plenty of things that came before SA2 that have more realisitcally proportion features of humans, architecture or whatnot. That doesn't detract whatever direction they were going simply because one group did it before another one for their game. I have a hard time believing that SA2's humans were meant to be cartoony if not because of the fact that they kept trying to go further into realism as the series kept moving before going to a more cartoony look.

I don't get your point here. Now your talking about them taking a different direction than Shenmue's developers, and that's why they look less realistic?

What's more, there are also games that came before SA2 with unrealistic features in their face and they're clearly trying to emulate realism in their works. For example, Metal Gear Solid (pre-Twin Snakes) came out before either of these games and it clearly tries to take a realisitic direction. Am I suppose to consider it cartoony because it's facial features aren't real enough?

No, because SA2's are actually cartoony looking, while Metal Gear Solid's (Non-existent ) faces aren't.

Oh really? Because from where I stand, claiming that SA2's humans are cartoony or trying to be is just as ridiculous.

Well then you're wrong. 06 is obviously a much bigger attempt at realism than SA2.

In SA2?

That could be a number of things, from limitations to unintentionally exaggerating them, but I'm not going to make guess over which one it was. Hands and feet are the hardest things to draw, much less model in 3D and animate, so we can't make any assumptions here.

But that's exactly what your doing. You see more cartoon-like features and than assume it wasn't meant to be.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Christmas MaRCELLOF

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well then you and I don't see eye to eye on cartoonyness. I'm definitely not reaching.

I'm honestly starting to see this as more spite against Unleashed's humans on your part than it is us not seeing eye to eye, but until I get a solid indicator of that I'm just going to continue to deal with the rest of your post...

Also his body isn't totally realistic. Just much more than Unleashed's I can't find a picture, but even if I did you wouldn't agree withe me.

Here, let me help you by presenting a video that shows the only scene with the president in and you point out how his body isn't totally realistic enough that it can be considered cartoony.

If their body not being totally realistic is enough to make something cartoony, there would be a motherlode of things in countless media that would fall under that same definition even in spite of their clear attempts at realism. So I don't think that would be a good measure for you to make.

Also, for future reference, how about you make a clear attempt to show me something before you flat out dismiss that I wouldn't agree with you? Because that helps you even less that actually providing an example for someone to try to see your point and is a shallow way to refute something.

I don't get your point here. Now your talking about them taking a different direction than Shenmue's developers, and that's why they look less realistic?

No, I'm saying that just because humans were done more realistically by another developer does not mean that the way Sonic Team or any other developers went about designing them is more cartoony when they don't achieve the former's quality. By that logic, GTA3's humans, for example, would be more cartoony than Shemue, Metal Gear Solid, or even SA2's humans because they're not on their level of realism or even cartooniness since their models are not real enough in facial features or body proportions to be considered real.

No, because SA2's are actually cartoony looking, while Metal Gear Solid's (Non-existent ) faces aren't.

That's some pretty insane troll logic right there dude. Shouldn't Metal Gear Solid's "non-existent" face be considered cartoony since they aren't even realistic enough just like you've claimed earlier with SA2's humans? Because if anything, you'd be making a very ridiculous double standard otherwise.

Well then you're wrong. 06 is obviously a much bigger attempt at realism than SA2.

Gee. What was your first clue, dude? That's pretty obvious by how realistic they tried to make Eggman in 06, but that still doesn't detract from the point that SA2 is not an attempt at cartoony and with the style growing more realisitic as they gave them more detail in ShTH and even more in 06 before Unleashed is putting a pretty huge wall around your claim.

You're going to need to do far more that use how unrealisitc certain features are to prove something is cartoony, and just because it's not totally realistic does not justify it as cartoony. You can do that with Unleashed easily; were it the same case with SA2 we wouldn't be arguing in the first place.

But that's exactly what your doing. You see more cartoon-like features and than assume it wasn't meant to be.

Over hands and feet?

How about you pay attention to what I was talking about in that post on what we shouldn't assume before you go jumping to that statement like that? There's nothing catoon-like about them to me, which I've made more than clear throughout this entire argument. And given how hard hands and feet are to draw, let alone animate, that's a very shitty attempt to use that as an example of how cartoony something is.

Why don't we go and call GTA3 or Metal Gear Solid cartoony since their hands, for example, have nothing but spheres then if that's the case?

Edited December 26, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[RDNexus]

OK, so SA2 humans are not realistic nor cartoony enough to manage a rightful diferentiation of them...

I'm on the opinion that I really wouldn't like to see Unleashed humans again, they seemed like real american cartoon characters to me and I really didn't like them...

So could you stop that argument and focus on compiling ideas of a human design more accepting for eveyone?

I'm sure that would be more productive...

Edited December 26, 2011 by XRick

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

OK, so SA2 humans are not realistic nor cartoony enough to manage a rightful diferentiation of them...

[RDNexus]

What's wrong with them being like american cartoons?

Edited December 26, 2011 by XRick

[Chaos Warp]

But if you want something else to discuss, all I can say is that I'm more in favor of Unleashed's humans. Indigo Rush got the idea of an "Eggman Test" by taking the designs of humans and comparing them to how the stand next to Eggman; if their style came close to his the they're the better fit.

I honestly don't mind seeing Eggman stand out a little from the rest of the humans. I really don't want to go full-realistic, but I don't think we have to go full Pixar-cartoony either. Cartoony, but not that far.

[lounge]

What's wrong with Sonic X type humans? Those looked the best to me and I've never seen anyone complain how weird they look next to sonic. Sharah, Maria's sonic x design, Merlina (what's wrong with these designs?) Why do humans have to look ugly?

[RDNexus]

What's wrong with Sonic X type humans? Those looked the best to me and I've never seen anyone complain how weird they look next to sonic. Sharah, Maria's sonic x design, Merlina (what's wrong with these designs?) Why do humans have to look ugly?

[lounge]

Ugly in which sense? Unleashed?

[RDNexus]

Yeah, even Gerald in SonicX looked great.

Eggman's design could be revamped based on that design, I'd love it, maybe even better than Eggman06.

Edited December 26, 2011 by XRick

[Komodin]

What's wrong with Sonic X type humans? Those looked the best to me and I've never seen anyone complain how weird they look next to sonic. Sharah, Maria's sonic x design, Merlina (what's wrong with these designs?) Why do humans have to look ugly?

Who actually said that they wanted the humans to look ugly? Come to think of it, kindly define "ugly" as used in the context of your last sentence, because something tells me that your definition doesn't really jive with mine.

[lounge]

Eggman doesn't need to be revamped. He's fine the way he is. He's always looked like that and that's who he is. I hate it when idiot designers who have no sense of what looks pleasing to eyes, revamp characters for no reason and make them look so different from what they originally were.

Who actually said that they wanted the humans to look ugly? Come to think of it, kindly define "ugly" as used in the context of your last sentence, because something tells me that your definition doesn't really jive with mine

Nobody said that. I just don't see why the Unleashed humans have to be the norm for the series look for them. Sonic's cool and I don't think the Unleashed humans help improve that image of coolness.

[Soniman]

Eggman doesn't need to be revamped. He's fine the way he is. He's always looked like that and that's who he is. I hate it when idiot designers who have no sense of what looks pleasing to eyes, revamp characters for no reason and make them look so different from what they originally were.

Nobody said that. I just don't see why the Unleashed humans have to be the norm for the series look for them. Sonic's cool and I don't think the Unleashed humans help improve that image of coolness.

Sonic shouldnt rely on humans as a crutch to make him look cool. Conversly, the humans shouldnt be all designed to gear to a single theme of "coolness", they should be varied and have an array of colorful designs and unique personalities, which I believe Unleashed does a good job at.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Sonimas032

[RDNexus]

Eggman doesn't need to be revamped. He's fine the way he is. He's always looked like that and that's who he is. I hate it when idiot designers who have no sense of what looks pleasing to eyes, revamp characters for no reason and make them look so different from what they originally were.

Since SA2 that I've always wished for Eggman to look more human, like he did in Sonic06, but then I saw Gerald's SonicX design and thought to myself, that design could look even better to him and maybe for quite the while...

Sonic shouldnt rely on humans as a crutch to make him look cool. Conversly, the humans shouldnt be all designed to gear to a single theme of "coolness", they should be varied and have an array of colorful designs and unique personalities, which I believe Unleashed does a good job at.

But I also, as said before, didn't like the art direction of Unleashed, SonicX looked better to me in general. I guess I finally found a standing point for myself about human designs I'd wish to see in upcoming games.

Edited December 27, 2011 by XRick

[Scar]

@Lounge

If all the people in a Sonic game, including the humans were cool, surely that would diminish Sonic's coolness...

If all the humans looked "uncool" as you say, then surely Sonic would look much cooler by comparison. Wouldn't it benefit the central characters' coolness to have the remaining (human or otherwise) NPC's look uncool?

[lounge]

@Lounge

If all the people in a Sonic game, including the humans were cool, surely that would diminish Sonic's coolness...

If all the humans looked "uncool" as you say, then surely Sonic would look much cooler by comparison. Wouldn't it benefit the central characters' coolness to have the remaining (human or otherwise) NPC's look uncool?

[RDNexus]

I second you there, despite not knowing much of Zelda or Mario...

[Mauro Fonseca]

They have this really grotesque look about them. Giant noses, small figures, noodly arms and legs.

?

[RDNexus]

?

Was that a joke? Sorry, but it wasn't funny to me...

We are talking about humans here, not anthros...

Edited December 27, 2011 by XRick

[Mauro Fonseca]

No, I was commenting on how apparently it's a bad idea to make humans look like cartoons in a cartoon world where the main characters are cartoons. Heaven forbid.

Also, regarding the whole SA2 shebang, the in-game models are clearly cartoonish, with a style and proportions that remind me of Lupin III, while the ones in the CGI cutscenes do attempt to be realistic.