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Have The Adventure Games Lost Credit Due To Other Gameplay Styles?


Cortez

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Not in a 3D Sonic game.

3D and 2D Sonic are both fun but that doesn't mean I want them both in the same game. An expansive level like Seaside Hill is always an exciting prospect, but at the end of the day all the routes will periodically bottleneck so you can enter a 2D section. This could be solved by having many separate 2D sections with the possibility of avoiding them all through particular routes, but I still hate feeling restricted by the position of the camera rather than the actual environment I can see before me.

Well in Seaside Hill's case there was a route that could allow skilled players to completely bypass a 2d section. I think more level should have this kind of option.

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Well in Seaside Hill's case there was a route that could allow skilled players to completely bypass a 2d section. I think more level should have this kind of option.

Completely agreed. I'm not completely averse to 2D sections but I always think it's better to please one group with something great than try and please everyone. Unless they think up some really clever stage design that can ONLY be done in 2D, I don't see any need for it in a modern, 3D Sonic game. You wouldn't see full 3D platforming sections in a 2D Sonic game.

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The death pits are the only real threat that there is. No creative gimmicks, no making you think and instead just killing you off to try again, enemies make painfully obvious enemy bridges that you have to go over (Sonic has the HA though, which makes it an automatic process), and rather uninspired platforming that mostly consists of square structures instead of ramps and slopes.

There is still nothing wrong with it, nor is there anything remotely similar to a Mario game in there.

Besides, platforming requires platforms, ramps and slopes lead you to the platforms, and generally speaking, platforms are square, or rectangular, or perhaps a triangle, maybe a circle.

Also uninspired with reference to what. I think the platforming is usually well layed out, well structured and challenging. Nothing seems uninspiring to me. Oh unless of course you mean too much jumping from platform to platform, which is standard stuff really....in a platformer.

Edited by Scar
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To be honest I haven't seen an "Endless Pit" argument ever since Eggmanland in Unleashed.

I don't particularly mind 2D sections myself, but I share Jez's sentiments that the 2D playing field is a bit of a crutch, and I personally see it a Retro pandering in the case of Classic Sonic, regardless of how good the 2D sections actually are. It seems Generations, in terms of Modern stages, uses these 2D sections to apply platforming, which is what I can understand because attempting to keep your speed while applying precision on a 3D playing field seems to be difficult without defaulting to Homing Attack.

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The "it's not needed" excuse could just as easily be applied to 3d gameplay. Just because you think it's unnecessary doesn't mean it can't be fun.
I don't think anyone's suggesting that the series do away with 2D entirely, just that it's still struggling to get 3D working right, and it would have a better chance of doing so if it'd focus on that rather than holding it together with 2D sections. They can certainly continue to make separate 2D-only games alongside 3D-only games.

Regarding the Adventures, I think the problem is that they don't do anything particularly well. The modern games clearly outdo them in terms of speed. The classic games have better classic gameplay. You could argue that the 3D platforming was better than in any other Sonic game, but I'd say not by much, and that it's not particularly good in an objective sense anyway. To go back to the Adventure games is to aim low.

Regarding "Mario-like platforming", the problem as I see it is that the game relies far too much on squared-off pieces and not nearly enough on curves and angles. They exist, yes, so don't bother pointing out to me some quarter pipes or the occasional oddly-angled piece of ground; I know they're there. The problem is there aren't nearly enough of them, and what is there is quite simple; for a character that can handle almost any angle and defy gravity to run on walls and ceilings, it's woefully underused, largely limited to scripted (at least in part) sequences, meaningless loops, and the occasional ramp.

edit: To put it another way, it's less that it's being like Mario, and more that it doesn't actually understand Sonic, and thus kind of defaults to a more basic platforming form.

From what I can recall, Pyramid Cave was composed of tubes
Exactly.

I'm not saying these sections were brilliant design. They weren't. They were basically just linear paths with some opportunities to score extra points. But there was that little spark of understanding that Sonic is a game of curves, not of 90-degree angles, and that "the ground" is a matter of perspective.

A better example is

It doesn't treat the walls as just walls. The area is constructed of curves that turn walls into floors, leading you to a different path. Where's the equivalent in GenMod GHZ? Edited by Diogenes
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There is still nothing wrong with it, nor is there anything remotely similar to a Mario game in there.

Besides, platforming requires platforms, ramps and slopes lead you to the platforms, and generally speaking, platforms are square, or rectangular, or perhaps a triangle, maybe a circle.

Also uninspired with reference to what. I think the platforming is usually well layed out, well structured and challenging. Nothing seems uninspiring to me. Oh unless of course you mean too much jumping from platform to platform, which is standard stuff really....in a platformer.

The slopes and ramps aren't integrated into the platforming, which is one of the largest issues (inb4 someone saying that it doesn't matter since Sonic can't roll anymore anyway; keep the past to the past; etc.)

It's too much basic platforming though. I don't mind platforming-centered levels like Sandolopis; but when the layout is so bland and nothing of note really happens other than watching the game play itself (which has been an issue throughout all the 3D games), then yes, I don't particularly find it to be done well or inspired.

Edited by E-25
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The slopes and ramps aren't integrated into the platforming, which is one of the largest issues (inb4 someone saying that it doesn't matter since Sonic can't roll anymore anyway; keep the past to the past; etc.)

It's too much basic platforming though. I don't mind platforming-centered levels like Sandolopis; but when the layout is so bland and nothing of note really happens other than watching the game play itself (which has been an issue throughout all the 3D games), then yes, I don't particularly find it to be done well or inspired.

You can argue the platforming is basic. However, the only 3D game that actively played itself was Sonic 06, which was so broken the designers had to take control away from you to make it look like it worked. Then Unleashed because it was just boosting a whole lot, interespersed with a tiny morsel of platforming. Generations, both iterations hardly play themselves, you could write essays trying to convince us it does, but it just doesn't. Every stage after Green Hill Zone requires player input, even if it is just for "basic" platforming.

As a matter of fact, most 3D Sonic games (yes even the bad ones, like SA2, Heroes and Shadow), with the exception of 06 and arguably Unleashed do require player input. I cannot just sit back and watch the game play itself in any game except for those two.

Edited by Scar
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To be honest I haven't seen an "Endless Pit" argument ever since Eggmanland in Unleashed.

I don't particularly mind 2D sections myself, but I share Jez's sentiments that the 2D playing field is a bit of a crutch, and I personally see it a Retro pandering in the case of Classic Sonic, regardless of how good the 2D sections actually are. It seems Generations, in terms of Modern stages, uses these 2D sections to apply platforming, which is what I can understand because attempting to keep your speed while applying precision on a 3D playing field seems to be difficult without defaulting to Homing Attack.

Isn't that the real point though? Maintaining Sonic's speed in 3D should atributed to a person skill. If someone is retarded enough to risk something without the proper knowledge of level deign and skill they should be punished.

You think people speed run chemical plant on their first go in the classics despite it being a relatively fast stage?

To be honest I remember being in an argument with a fellow SSMB member that felt malice toward something because he felt, as a Sonic expert, that he should just breeze though everything his first go. Him not doing so means that the level design would be suffering.

That kind of thinking is Bull. Thank god that Generations has such great level deign because the basic route to go through may be much slower but were far too easy, but I can't really get mad at this because...well sonic always been like that. I totally am on the side that say "do away with 2D as a major force" I want the games to reach it max potential 3D.

The 2D section should be subjected to something like maybe....The boss fought in pyramid cave in SA2 with Sonic. Discrete...nice change of pace maybe every 2 or 3 levels.

Edited by 3D>>>>2D
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Isn't that the real point though? Maintaining Sonic's speed in 3D should atributed to a person skill. If someone is retarded enough to risk something without the proper knowledge of level deign and skill they should be punished.

Which I agree with. I simply say I can understand this sort of reasoning, particularly when you actually try to platform without the crutch of using Homing attack. Jumping from point A to Point B seems to be terribly hard for anyone who isn't experienced in the Sonic franchise, as attributed to the constant complaints about controls. Everyone and their grandma understand the 2D playing field almost completely however.

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Honestly I think the controls in Generations are good enough for precision 3D platforming. Combine with a consistant "underneath Sonic" circular Shadow (just a lightly coloured one, so you can keep Sonic's REAL shadow reacting realistic for the pretties), the stomp move, and the air dash, I think he's pretty easy to get him where you want him these days.

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Which I agree with. I simply say I can understand this sort of reasoning, particularly when you actually try to platform without the crutch of using Homing attack. Jumping from point A to Point B seems to be terribly hard for anyone who isn't experienced in the Sonic franchise, as attributed to the constant complaints about controls. Everyone and their grandma understand the 2D playing field almost completely however.

More like people have a hard time doing this in platformers period. There a reason why "3D" platformers have been slowly dying since the FPS age. You don't see people jumping into bottomless pits in COD. (Unless its for the lolz)

I said it once and I'd say it again..in THIS day an age considering that Sonic is supposed to be "kid friendly" and "easy to beat", if Sonic 3 and K was released nowadays its would be severely panned for "Unfair Difficulty".

There is a reason why some critics held praise to Sonic 4.

Edited by 3D>>>>2D
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Why does everyone say that the adventure gameplay is just underwhelming boost gameplay/can't do anything the boost gameplay can't do? There are still some key points for the Adventure style gameplay:

-Unscripted Hills. While it's not as common as it should be, places like Green Forest, Speed Highway and City Escape had those massive hills that you shoot down when you roll. In Sonic Generations, in that mission where you ride the snowboard through Spagognia, you literally ride straight up the side of a building o_e'. That's not to say that there isn't scripting in SA or SA2, but there are actual physics there. SADX hack levels have loops that aren't scripted.

-Workable jump and air dash. In the modern gameplay, Sonic shoots up and then falls like a rock. More in SA2 than SA, you can actually control Sonic in the air which allows for actual platforming in this platformer. While platforming is possible in the boost gameplay, it's slippery and you can tell it wasn't in mind when they first programmed it. And the air dash is actually useful, too. In the boost gameplay, you go forward and at a certain point, you loose all forward velocity and literally shoot down as if Sonic hit the brakes in the air.

-Responsive analog control. You hit a direction and Sonic went there instead of turning wide like a car. It's one thing when you're going faster than adventure Sonic could ever dream, but it's another when you're literally matching his speed. This affects 3D platforming and high-speed traveling, because you also need to turn every once and a while. Even at his highest speed, Adventure Sonic could stop on a dime and then do a full 180 probably before Boost Sonic could've lowered his speed enough to begin turning.

Those are my big three points in favor of the Adventure gameplay. Honestly, there are people who really don't care in the end, but if you wanted to take the Classic gameplay and bring it into 3D, what you'd have would probably resemble the Adventures in a sense, which is why we may return to them someday. Classic in 3D might even borrow some things from the adventures, like the homing attack or maybe the somersault to avoid the dreaded spamdash.

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Why does everyone say that the adventure gameplay is just underwhelming boost gameplay/can't do anything the boost gameplay can't do? There are still some key points for the Adventure style gameplay:

-Unscripted Hills. While it's not as common as it should be, places like Green Forest, Speed Highway and City Escape had those massive hills that you shoot down when you roll. In Sonic Generations, in that mission where you ride the snowboard through Spagognia, you literally ride straight up the side of a building o_e'. That's not to say that there isn't scripting in SA or SA2, but there are actual physics there. SADX hack levels have loops that aren't scripted.

-Workable jump and air dash. In the modern gameplay, Sonic shoots up and then falls like a rock. More in SA2 than SA, you can actually control Sonic in the air which allows for actual platforming in this platformer. While platforming is possible in the boost gameplay, it's slippery and you can tell it wasn't in mind when they first programmed it. And the air dash is actually useful, too. In the boost gameplay, you go forward and at a certain point, you loose all forward velocity and literally shoot down as if Sonic hit the brakes in the air.

-Responsive analog control. You hit a direction and Sonic went there instead of turning wide like a car. It's one thing when you're going faster than adventure Sonic could ever dream, but it's another when you're literally matching his speed. This affects 3D platforming and high-speed traveling, because you also need to turn every once and a while. Even at his highest speed, Adventure Sonic could stop on a dime and then do a full 180 probably before Boost Sonic could've lowered his speed enough to begin turning.

Those are my big three points in favor of the Adventure gameplay. Honestly, there are people who really don't care in the end, but if you wanted to take the Classic gameplay and bring it into 3D, what you'd have would probably resemble the Adventures in a sense, which is why we may return to them someday.

The first two things could easily be employed into the modern style, as they're only coincidental design choices. Removing either of those factors wouldn't change the style radically enough to call it a return to the Adventure style.

Classic in 3D might even borrow some things from the adventures, like the homing attack or maybe the somersault to avoid the dreaded spamdash.

Dear God no. That move was one of the most stupidly pointless thing Sonic's ever had the misfortune of having in his arsenal. Right up there with the Magic Hands.

Here's my take on the "spamdash": If you don't like it, don't use it. Forcing the use of a move that serves no purpose aside from inhibiting movement (and in turn taking away a factor that many people found fun) is downright idiotic.

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The one thing I want returning that came from SA2 that would really amp the fun factor is "balancing" grinding.

I enjoy keeping Sonic centered in order for him to be at max speed...but sadly this is a design that cannot be implemented with 2D gameplay still being a major force.

Edited by 3D>>>>2D
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Not to the fanboys.

But in all seriousness, I enjoy the adventure games, as well as the playstyle. I like modern a little more though.

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If you want to get rid of the spamdash, just add a crouch button (which they should have done in the first place). Spindash=Crouch+Jump (or crouch plus some other button, whatever). Can't spamdash when you need to crouch first.

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Here's my take on the "spamdash": If you don't like it, don't use it. Forcing the use of a move that serves no purpose aside from inhibiting movement (and in turn taking away a factor that many people found fun) is downright idiotic.

An unintentional method of a mechanic used within a game should never be addressed as an "Ascended Glitch", where it is somehow deemed acceptable to Sonic's moveset, regardless of how "fun" it is. Smash Brothers Melee to Smash Brothers Brawl faced the issues, to the point where Melee fans made a public outcry about how "downgraded" the game became due to lack of tech skill involved, most of which comes from these unintentional mechanics.

In short, it's completely misguided and even arrogant to address this issue as if it wasn't an issue in the first place. While I agree that Somersault wasn't the best way to go, the "Don't use it" approach is simply ignoring the fact that the developers did not intend the use of Spamdash, which dominates Speedruns in SA1.

Edited by Marco
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In short, it's completely misguided and even arrogant to address this issue as if it wasn't an issue in the first place. While I agree that Somersault wasn't the best way to go, the "Don't use it" approach is simply ignoring the fact that the developers did not intend the use of Spamdash, which dominates Speedruns in SA1.

of course it was intended. The ability to spam the spindash is something even the most basic of players can learn to do in seconds, and surely wouldn't have gotten through testing if the developers didn't intend for it to happen. Wave-dashing is completely different, as it's something that wasn't mastered until years after the game's release, and surely wasn't noticeable during beta testing.

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I like to think of this style of sonic as a new type of 3d sonic style.It's own original thing. One that mixes both the 2d and 3d styles together. It the current style st seems to want to use. That's not saying I don't want 3d only. That would be swell! But as it's own type of style It's working out fine. A crutch at times like many have said. But still good. I don't see it as a bad thing.

But the "NEXT sonic"Should probably just be generations modern sonic with some improvements only in 3d.

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-Responsive analog control. You hit a direction and Sonic went there instead of turning wide like a car. It's one thing when you're going faster than adventure Sonic could ever dream, but it's another when you're literally matching his speed. This affects 3D platforming and high-speed traveling, because you also need to turn every once and a while. Even at his highest speed, Adventure Sonic could stop on a dime and then do a full 180 probably before Boost Sonic could've lowered his speed enough to begin turning.

That honestly would not make much sense. Naturally, while runnning, would you be able to make a 180 at full speed? No. While I love SA1 and 2, their controls were not the best at high speeds. While I feel that Sonic's turning arc should be tighter at high speeds, I don't feel he should deny inertia at high speeds ala the Adventures. Arcing turns at high speeds feels natural to me.

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of course it was intended. The ability to spam the spindash is something even the most basic of players can learn to do in seconds, and surely wouldn't have gotten through testing if the developers didn't intend for it to happen. Wave-dashing is completely different, as it's something that wasn't mastered until years after the game's release, and surely wasn't noticeable during beta testing.

Disregarding the fact that Wave Dashing is not the only "Ascended Glitch" in Melee, Wash Dashing is actually intentional. The reason why Wave Dashing was taken out was because Melee turned into a game that wasn't exactly intended for the developers. Which is, in Adventure's case, can be applied similarly to Spam Dashing.

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Why does everyone say that the adventure gameplay is just underwhelming boost gameplay/can't do anything the boost gameplay can't do? There are still some key points for the Adventure style gameplay:

-Unscripted Hills. While it's not as common as it should be, places like Green Forest, Speed Highway and City Escape had those massive hills that you shoot down when you roll. In Sonic Generations, in that mission where you ride the snowboard through Spagognia, you literally ride straight up the side of a building o_e'. That's not to say that there isn't scripting in SA or SA2, but there are actual physics there. SADX hack levels have loops that aren't scripted.

Generations has unscripted hills. The only occasion where a "hill" was scripted, was in that Spagonia Streetboard mission. Adding a speed booster doesn't mean its scripted, it may as well be, but that's a different issue. If you take away the speed boosters, proper physics apply and Generations' Modern has better and more refined physics, they just aren't used that often.

-Workable jump and air dash. In the modern gameplay, Sonic shoots up and then falls like a rock. More in SA2 than SA, you can actually control Sonic in the air which allows for actual platforming in this platformer. While platforming is possible in the boost gameplay, it's slippery and you can tell it wasn't in mind when they first programmed it. And the air dash is actually useful, too. In the boost gameplay, you go forward and at a certain point, you loose all forward velocity and literally shoot down as if Sonic hit the brakes in the air.

SA1 and SA2's jump cancelled all inertia you have (i.e speed) and slowed you down. It was very floaty. Oh you can jump high in the air if you spindash-jump, but all the speed you had is lost the moment you touch the jump button. Unleashed, Colours and Generations Modern all had a jump that carried your inertia. Obviously the Generations Modern's jump is by far the best and actually behaves closer to how the Mega Drive jump was than what was supposed to be "classic" Sonic, in the same game.

-Responsive analog control. You hit a direction and Sonic went there instead of turning wide like a car. It's one thing when you're going faster than adventure Sonic could ever dream, but it's another when you're literally matching his speed. This affects 3D platforming and high-speed traveling, because you also need to turn every once and a while. Even at his highest speed, Adventure Sonic could stop on a dime and then do a full 180 probably before Boost Sonic could've lowered his speed enough to begin turning.

You'd notice how being able to stop on a dime, completely disregards the laws of physics, the fabled "momentum" (and what is actually inertia). Stoping and turning on a dime is a sign of poor physics, not good physics. Turning in arcs rather than at sharp angles is better. It shows that there is a proper physics engine implementation. All that needs to be changed from Modern really is Sonic's acceleration.

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Turning in arcs rather than at sharp angles is better.

Better, how? It just makes maneuvering a pain in the ass for anything other than going in a straight line.

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Well, turning at sharp angles feels less realistic, infact it kinda reminds me of something Sonic would do in Sonic X sometimes when he would be drawn as a streak of blue light..

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Better, how? It just makes maneuvering a pain in the ass for anything other than going in a straight line.

By having it vary depending on speed. Turning sharply at low speeds is fine, as you get gradually faster, your ability to turn 90 degrees instantly diminishes and your turning arc gets wider. It makes sense doesn't it? Turning should also slow you down. A lower acceleration would mean you would be able to maintain a decent turning arc until you hit a really high speed where your controls stiffen up.

As you slow down your turning arc sharpens again.

I hate controls that are pin-sharp at high speeds, it feels so unatural. I hated how twitchy Sonic felt at speed in SA2, movement was not fluid, it was jittery.

In a platformer centred around physics, its only natural to have controls that vary depending on your speed. Could you stop and turn on a dime at full pelt in the classics? When you could (Sonic 4 Episode I) people complained at how unatural it felt.

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