TinyChat in Status Updates

[eXtaticus]

Simple issue, really: when you type a TinyChat URL into the your Status Update, it replaces the "tinychat" part of the URL with "google".

That means that this: tiny chat.com/sonicstadium (without spaces)

Turns to: google.com/sonicstadium

And users can't access the content behind the link. This issue is especially problematical, because tiny chat.com/sonicstadium (without spaces) is the official Sonic Stadium TinyChat, and if we can't post links to it, then it's likely that most users will remain unaware of its existence - and that would be a darned shame.

EDIT: It does it in posts, too!

Edited January 11, 2012 by eXtaticus

[Indigo Rush]

The filter was originally imposed because when it was first being advertised during the Needlemouse hype, it was constantly being spammed in the status updates. This filter also carries over to the TSS Radio IRC chat, in which saying tiny or chat in the same sentence will kick you.

I've been in situations where I'll say "I don't go on here as much because of the tiny chat" and then I'll be kicked instantly without warning.

I understand that there's fear of the IRC losing importance, but if the tiny chat is just as official (it's modded by Roary Raccoon for goodness sake) I don't see why the filter needs to be applied there.

It's right up there with CuteFluffyKittens for TSSZ, it's annoying and a pain in the butt. There's hardly any incentive for us to post the link anyway, so why bother with a filter?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[eXtaticus]

How utterly ridiculous. I thought that it was an innocent glitch, too...

[Cola]

Yeah, it's a bother, but I've learned to live with it.

If I recall correctly, it wasn't imposed until around 6 or 7 months ago. I remember clicking a link and being led here. I also advertised on the Statuses, but regulars like Mimi and Ninjashark said it was a no-no for some reason. I dunno.

[Chris]

The word filter was originally imposed to deter users from posting links to the tinychat as a way to avoid forum moderation and to rebel after certain members were banned from the forums. To that end, I'd personally prefer if the filter for the URL stayed in place - but it has been a while.

It was never implemented (from the SSMB staff perspective, and to a degree, mine; I was the one who added it to the ACP) to encourage more use of the IRC chatroom. That aspect of the filter was imposed by themselves as shown in that chatroom.

[eXtaticus]

The word filter was originally imposed to deter users from posting links to the tinychat as a way to avoid forum moderation and to rebel after certain members were banned from the forums. To that end, I'd personally prefer if the filter for the URL stayed in place - but it has been a while.

It was never implemented (from the SSMB staff perspective, and to a degree, mine; I was the one who added it to the ACP) to encourage more use of the IRC chatroom. That aspect of the filter was imposed by themselves as shown in that chatroom.

Then why did one of your fellow administrators create an official TinyChat room after Dreadknux asked us to stop using his site's name on non-affiliated sites (which we happily complied with, it's worth noting)? It seems a tad silly to block easy access to your own site for the sake of a ban-dodging stop-gap - and you appear to take no issue whatsoever with the unofficial SSMB Skype group, so why single out one group of users while letting another run free of filters? That appears a touch on the unfair and inconsistent side, if you ask me, and I'm still at a loss as to why you'd want to throttle the usage of an officially affiliated chatroom with such an overly broad and frankly unnecessary method.

EDIT: I suppose that we could just go to http://tinyurl.com/sonicstadium to get the same result. That's just as easy to remember as the actual address - though it is still vastly more convenient just to paste the proper URL rather than having to type that every time we want to make it known.

Edited January 11, 2012 by eXtaticus

[Pelly <3's U]

The TinyChat as far as I'm aware has never been official, neither have the skype chats. I think the reason the TinyChat caused more problems then the skype chats were that Eddy has reached out to the staff of the SSMB to make sure no problems ever arised as a conflict between the skype chats and the site, whereas in the past the TinyChat (I don't know if there has been multiple ones or really anything about them) were used specifically to subvert the forum rules in cases.

It was more of a case of losing the privilege to link to the TinyChat when it was shown to us staff that people would do so in ways that lead to direct conflicts with our rules here.

No one really cares if a group of members would like to go someplace and create a chat group for themselves, but when they do so under the pretense that it's officially endorsed by the SSMB or TSS and then use it to purposes that directly conflict with things we promote on the site, then we don't really have the obligation to help promote it on our forums.

And granted I have no idea what the TinyChat is like now because the things that lost it it's privileges happened in the past so I'm not trying to condemn it, but the fact of the matter is we allowed it in the past and it was abused so in the end we instated the word filter.

[Double Agent Motobug]

O: I didn't know this, so when I started doing my whiteboard and Sonic song Jamming streams, I'd deterred it by using TinyURL. It even kinda became relatively popular with some folks, so until Mimi mentioned it being bad to post the links, I just thought it was a glitch. Either way, people enjoyed it, we got some good discussion value and I got some really awesome guitar practice and art skillz practice out of it. Most everyone so far has been very respectful, so I don't see a problem with it now-a-days. And if it's allowed, I'd like to continue doing so, because it's really fun, easy, and I've met so many awesome people from here that I never would have, AND I even started a Sonic Remixes album /because/ I learned some of those songs I was jamming on.

Yeah. o:

[eXtaticus]

[the TinyChat was] used specifically to subvert the forum rules in cases.

If there's an example of an actual case of this happening, then information on what it was would be extremely useful in ensuring that it doesn't happen again.

It was more of a case of losing the privilege to link to the TinyChat when it was shown to us staff that people would do so in ways that lead to direct conflicts with our rules here.

Then why not have Roarz ban users who were particular rule-breakers? That seems a little fairer than penalising every current non-offending SSMB TinyChat user who wants to promote and boost discussion in the chatroom, along with stifling the potential userbase and causing unnecessary inconvenience to legitimately rule-abiding users. If you don't mind me saying so, punishing the many for the transgressions of the few is, simply put, bad moderating - and that's a stone-cold fact.

No one really cares if a group of members would like to go someplace and create a chat group for themselves, but when they do so under the pretense that it's officially endorsed by the SSMB or TSS and then use it to purposes that directly conflict with things we promote on the site, then we don't really have the obligation to help promote it on our forums.

We never claimed to be official back when we weren't (there was never any "pretense"), and the only reason why we used the SSMB name was so that we could more efficiently and easily create a casual chatroom for SSMB users to hang out an exchange non-postworthy chat in with other, familiar members of the forum - and when Roarz made the official TinyChat after Dreadknux complained that we were using his site's name, (his exact words were "we do not endorse TinyChat"; I remember it like it was yesterday) he elected moderators to regulate the place while he was away, and we now ensure that we all adhere to Sonic Stadium rules, and don't discuss anything that would be objectionable on the actual Sonic Stadium sites.

Word filters are, as you've no doubt already gleaned from the whole Cute Fluffy Kittens fiasco last year, a particularly obtrusive, obnoxious and terrible method of blocking discussion about and attention towards matters that you find objectionable - you'd have been better off simply requesting that we adhere to the rules better than we had been in the past, (giving the example, of course, of exactly where the rules were broken in the first place) and we'd have been more than happy to oblige. Treating users like intelligent adults is a fast track to mutual respect - treating an entire section of the forum's userbase like rule-breaking criminals and making efforts to exclude them is, on the other hand, something that isn't bound to be particularly beneficial to either them or the moderators in the long run.

I'm sure that I speak for the entire SSMB TinyChat crowd when I say that none of us particularly appreciate being shunned in this way, especially when the Skype chat is basically allowed free, unmoderated rein on its activity - especially seeing as the TinyChat chatroom is the one chatroom of the two that is now (and has been for a long time) actually officially affiliated with the main forum. Now, I'm not trying to preach to you, start a revolution or bark orders where it isn't my place to, but we'd very much appreciate it if this was rectified.

-eX

[Indigo Rush]

Yeah. I don't see why it can't be modded like any other aspect of the TSS Network.

Actually, I don't recall what it was that was considered abusing or trying to work around forum rules. What exactly happened, if you're allowed or care to explain?

[Pelly <3's U]

If you don't mind me saying so, punishing the many for the transgressions of the few is, simply put, bad moderating - and that's a stone-cold fact.

No it really isn't, and this is how it works out in a large majority of cases (both real world and online)

It's like I almost gave up at this point, because I can see your argument degrading into the wah defense.

eXacticus, I really think in order to get people on your side you need to work on how you present your case. Because honestly I think most of the staff would be considerate enough to take your points into consideration, but you present in such a melodramatic and overly condescending manner that I almost couldn't stand reading it. You asked why the word filter was in place, and then automatically jumped on the poor us and how we're treated so unfairly bandwagon. I'd say you'd get a lot further if you presented your case based on the fact that you think no problems would occur without the word filter, rather than based on being oppressed.

In the past we saw multiple occasions of the TinyChat being linked directly to break forum rules. I remember quite a few instances where a mod would say something to a member (such as not to do something), and immediately that person would post a status directing the people towards the TinyChat directly as a way to contradict that mods request. There were quite a few other problems, and we just decided that it caused more trouble then it was worth (and it's not really our forums job to be a vehicle to promote chat groups, so if in doing so it causing problems....I'd say it's anything but unfair that we not allow it)

As far as I'm aware, I'm not sure most of the staff knew that Roarey had endorsed the TinyChat. I had no idea until just this moment, and unfortunately....I don't think this bodes well for an "official affiliate" of TSS that almost no one in any position of authority had any idea of it. I guess it's really for Roarey to explain it, but ya....I don't know what to tell you as far as that defense goes.

This has nothing to do with preferential behavior towards the skype chat either. The skype chat hasn't caused problems for mods, and if it ever did I feel like we'd also decide that we no longer have the obligation to tolerate it's promotion on our forums. The funny thing is you keep mentioning how official the TinyChat is....but the skype chat has almost every mod and admin in it, and it's still not considered official either.

I think there was a miscommunication (or lack of) somewhere that had lead to this.

[Chris]

H'okay. I'd like to clarify the exact situation in which this filter was imposed for originally before I respond to any of the above posts. Read this well and understand the situation, and try to look at it from my perspective (as well as the moderation team at the time since it was not handled lightly, it was a team decision).

The Tinychat popped up as a harmless chatroom about two weeks prior to the filter being added. One of the main creators of said Tinychat shortly thereafter was involved in an issue which resulted in a forum ban - since the chatroom was presently managed by members and did not cause any issues, we didn't mind. That's fair, I'm not one to stop you guys from having a good time, especially not one on an external server.

Shortly thereafter, he had explained his punishment and situation to those in the room and they decided to take some sort of "action". By the time we noticed it, the status updates were being flooded with the URL and different attempts to deter members from the forums or attack the moderation team. While we did hand out bans to some others involved at the time, it was decided to simply add the filter for the website to block the problem at the source. When these users figured that out, they tried to dodge the filter -- this made me have to strengthen it to the point you see today, where it's much more tedious to avoid.

Does that make it seem more justified to you guys? I'm not particularly concerned either way because of how tired I am right now but there's your explaination.

Then why did one of your fellow administrators create an official TinyChat room after Dreadknux asked us to stop using his site's name on non-affiliated sites (which we happily complied with, it's worth noting)?

I do not recall it ever being considered official in the sense that it was endorsed by the network. Do you see a link to it on the main index of the website? Nope.

It seems a tad silly to block easy access to your own site for the sake of a ban-dodging stop-gap

It's not 'our' site. The primary argument here was the original purpose of the filter to which end it serves nicely. Yes, it's outdated.

and you appear to take no issue whatsoever with the unofficial SSMB Skype group, so why single out one group of users while letting another run free of filters?

They approached us prior to creating the group and have both kept a good sense of moderation about it and involved the current SSMB moderation in it's management. We have had no issues arise of users attempting to attack our staff or members from this medium and until that becomes an issue will not act upon it.

That appears a touch on the unfair and inconsistent side, if you ask me, and I'm still at a loss as to why you'd want to throttle the usage of an officially affiliated chatroom with such an overly broad and frankly unnecessary method.

It was necessary and was discussed by the moderation for quite some time prior to being filtered.

If there's an example of an actual case of this happening, then information on what it was would be extremely useful in ensuring that it doesn't happen again.

See above the quote tree.

Then why not have Roarz ban users who were particular rule-breakers?

We did ban the worst offenders, but if we can bring in another way around something (such as the filter or the current disabling of status updates) to circumvent having to ban a user for abusing one aspect of the forums then we will.

That seems a little fairer than penalising every current non-offending SSMB TinyChat user who wants to promote and boost discussion in the chatroom, along with stifling the potential userbase and causing unnecessary inconvenience to legitimately rule-abiding users. If you don't mind me saying so, punishing the many for the transgressions of the few is, simply put, bad moderating - and that's a stone-cold fact.

I honestly do not know how to respond to this. I hope the "bad moderating" opinion was changed from the explaination of the situation above, but you're welcome to your opinion.

With regards to your final post, eXtaticus, I wasn't aware that the TinyChat received such changes since. However, the Skype chat does not go without moderation. I'm not entirely sold on your argument for having the filter removed, but with the new forum software and the circumstances in which it was originally created, perhaps a better solution may be available now that wasn't then.

[Double Agent Motobug]

o: .... .... So that means that I've been breaking the rules by posting a link to my personal Tinychat thing then? Or....

D; Sorry, I didn't know, if so.

[Meow]

I don't think it counts as you breaking the rules by posting your personal tinychat because it doesn't have the words SSMB attached to it. Every time its been the Freen In Green tiny chat whenever I've gone in there.

I don't think the point here is that tinychat is against the rules, but rather the filter was put in place due to abuse of a chatroom on the site that had the word SSMB attached to it. Obviously I can understand why then the mods put the filter in place because of said abuse and to discourage people from going there to get around the rules. I think it seems pretty clear to me in that regard haha. I'm not a mod so I could be wrong, but I think you're fine dude.

[Double Agent Motobug]

I hope so! But then you'd think they'd just filter the "*link*.com/ssmb" thing though, rather than just "Tinychat" o:

Edited January 12, 2012 by Aptiva

[Cola]

I just think that maybe things should be worked out more

and maybe we can have more members moderating the damn thing

The only chat moderator I ever see is Serperior. (Note: Serpy was known as Blaziken before he changed his name)

Edited January 12, 2012 by Colasaurus Rex