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Old Sonic, New Sonic; Retrofag, Newfag?


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Really, at the end of the day, it all comes down to both preference and nostalgia. The older fans have been around longer, and when they were growing up, Sonic was the shit and now that they're older they can appreciate the older games for their quality for more than then when they were younger, the 90's were a time of bliss for Sonic. Then things went downhill with 3D, and the introduction of "Modern Sonic", his games were far more flawed than his 2D treks, with each installment getting worse than the last; New character after new character, swearing, princesses with necrophilia this wasn't the Sonic that the older fans grew up with, he'd change almost to the point of being unrecognizable, and people mostly associated Modern Sonic with the shitty string of games, while Classic Sonic was more inclined with the golden age of the franchise.

But wait there's more. Now when you're 5-10 years old, you rarely, if at all have any appreciation for the quality of a game, if it looked cool you wanted it, and that applies to Sonic too, no matter how crappy his games were. Believe it or not, I've seen kids claim their favorite games are either Shadow, and 06 precisely because of the reasons we hated it. These kids never played the classic games, and as such have no appreciation for quality, but as it turns out, Sonic sells well to kids, so naturally ST started coming up with more obscure ideas to appeal to the kiddies, which they loved, but unfortunately the older fans got pissed because they felt ST were turning their back on their long time fans by conforming to these childish notions. So now ST were stuck in a rut, with the Classic crowd wanting the quality of the old games, with the Modern crowd wanting the "coolness" of the newer games.

I honestly feel for ST, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place with this fandom.

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That kinda shows the obvious incompetence on Sonic Team's part tho than it does on the wedge between the old and new fans.

Yeah, older fans have a more keen eye on quality and the newer ones on adrenaline and coolness, but for Sonic Team to have went about it they way they did to create the wedge in the first place only seems to put the older fans more in the right here. That's mainly the reason they're stuck in a hard place, as they created it in the first place and only the older fans knew that before the younger ones opened their eyes more. The only thing they're not responsible for was the sense of entitlement both fans were claiming for themselves and denying the other group of. To say nothing of them projecting their interests on others as if they know what a group of the audience truly wants, like that quote I brought up; it just smacks with a heavy dose of irony to claim that X is more child friendly than Y, and yet Y is more interesting to the children.

With that said, however, that doesn't make the older group without their flaws. They saw the problem the newer fans weren't, but they went too extreme and shut themselves away from a lot of new elements that could actually work in the series if done well. Preference is one thing, but Nostalgia can only go so far before you wind up stuck in stagnation...and I'm not totally sure how I can illustrate that connection very well, but I think we see each other eye to eye.

But in either case, why call someone a "retrofag" for simply enjoying a lot the older aspects more, or a "newfag" for simply enjoying some of the newer elements? It's one thing to claim one is superior to the other, which is where I find it more than justifiable to call someone those names based on their attitude. But say if you like Classic Sonic more without being rude or bashing about it, some extremist from the other side is going to jump in and call you a "retrofag" as if they know everything you're about to think.

Eh, now I forgot where I was carrying this. laugh.png

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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I joined the series in 1994 and love the classics to bits. Yet when I sat down and worked out my top ten Sonic games the other week, I realised that not a single one of them was in my top ten (although Sonic 3 would have nabbed 11th place were I to continue the list).

But yeah- Personally, I still prefer modern Sonic and the current modern gameplay, now. Sure, it's not to everyone's tastes, and the series has certainly had more than its fair share of low points since the modern Sonic came about, but hey, at the same time they can't just keep churning out more of the same thing all the time. Only Nintendo can get away with that with 2D Mario games and to a lesser extent Zelda :P *shot*

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Hmm~ I consider myself an odd case. I've been on and off with the series for years. When I was a kid I watched Sonic on TV, with Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, the crazy one not the serious one, never knew he was a game character until I saw Sonic Heroes. Then I got out again until Sonic X, I watched that when it first aired and forgot again until Colors. That was the first game I ever played.

But~~ anyway as for me. Can I have both?? :3 I honestly love them both, their game play style and looks Through I'll leaning just a bit on Modern Sonic~. I love me a pair of bright green eyes~~~. XDD

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Hmmmm, I consider myself in the middle, maybe leaning slightly towards Classic. I love Modern gameplay. I also love Classic gameplay. But I'd love to see the rolling and depth of the classics mixed with the speed, rush and cinematic flair of Modern Sonic.

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This thread has reminded me of this web comic. Within the blog beneath the comic, the artist states "He [Classic Sonic] steals every scene he's in with a mix of charming silent(!) humour and the odd nostalgia-inducing sound effect."

The main term here is "nostalgia", as it seems to be a running gag in this community. The artist then states his odd preference over Classic Sonic is a strong contradiction, mainly due to the fact that the only reason Sonic never talked or had that "cute fuzzy wuzzy" design is due to tech limitations (I'll add onto the fact that Japan likes drawing cute things as well). However, it's a contradiction he's willing to ignore because he loves Classic Sonic that much.

Is it a bad thing? From a personal point of view... yeah, it is. To me, I've always saw Classic Sonic as a cash cow and nothing more. I've never saw him a throwback character nor did I see him as a nostalgia button despite the fact that I'm a child of the 90s, the era where Sonic began. In fact, I believe that's the main reason why I dislike Classic Sonic (not a strong dislike mind you), because his Classic personality is so painstakingly different from his Modern personality, and as a result is different from how he originally was. A lot of this can be blamed on the Japanese continuity where Sonic was indeed the "cute fuzzy wuzzy" character. The insane thing about all this is I doubt anyone who wasn't paying attention notices this strong contradiction because they're too busy screaming like a fangirl over Classic Sonic being in a game.

Oh wait, this thread is about gameplay isn't it?

In that case, I would like to curveball this thread and talk about Metroid instead of Sonic, because their current situations are similar but in an almost flipflop kind of manner. There's this internet celebrity (if you can call him that) called Moviebob AKA "The Game Overthinker" who is a Metroid fan, but above all else he is the epitome of a Classic Purist. Coupled with the personality of his persona as well as his often flawed analysis/tunnel-vision perspective; it leads me to always be skeptical of the person whenever I have nothing better to do and listen to the guy. Now, what does he have to do with Metroid?

He dislikes the Metroid Prime series due to the fact they were a "FPS", even though he did admit without his bias, they're good games. However, no one would get this from him because of the occasional jabs he makes on the Prime series since they were held at the first person perspective. At this point I should note that the Prime series are some of the greatest games on the Nintendo console and sold extremely well.

Now we get to Metroid: Other M, a game that went back to it's 2D roots nearly to it's very core of having a D-pad and two buttons via Wiimote. Moviebob says this game is great, while http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX4mhp-8sOc. Why does Moviebob say this game is great? Well, because it's not an FPS and it's a throwback to the way how Metroid originally was. Now, Other M sold extremely bad, and its reviews are mostly negative. Coupled with an article that goes in an in-depth analysis on the game's story, and Other M is often called the black sheep, if not an "abomination" of the series.

This relates to the term "Nostalgia" for Sonic. Sometimes it doesn't matter if it's good or bad. As long as that core design is playable then having constant throwback titles is what Sonic Team will do if it constantly rakes in that much needed cash. It doesn't matter if the physics are an "abomination" to what the classic series were. As long as it is there, that's good enough for most people. It also doesn't help that the 3D Sonic games were below par most of the time, with Colors and Generations leading the charge out of the heavy slump.

The real problem that Sonic Team has done however is that they further divided the fanbase, since they ironically divided the two gameplays and called them different, instead of keeping them as one mold. You think it was bad before? Wait till the next game comes out and Classic Sonic is nowhere to be seen.

Edited by Marco
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To call Sonic's older design to be "more child friendly" than the newer one is not even trying understand what makes something "child friendly" in the first place because it completely disregards that there are children who just so happen to like the newer one
I disagree. I think the classic design is legitimately more kid-friendly, being softer and rounder, with proportionally bigger eyes, shorter limbs...like, compared to the modern design it is much closer to the established rules of how to do cute.

The modern design is not un-kid-friendly, but it's aiming more for "cool", and aiming for somewhat older fans (young teens, maybe; not so much us old farts who have been following since the Genny), and also kids trying to look cool. I think a lot of SA-and-on fans get caught up in this sort of faux maturity, thinking that the darker, animesque stuff is Very Mature, and that they are Very Mature for liking it.

it says even more when the children usually tend to gravitate more towards the newer look than the older one while the opposite is usually the case for many older fans due to the greater exposure of both designs have on those very fans.
I think that kind of scuttles your own argument; a big reason kids like the modern design is that it's familiar to them, over the qualities of the design itself.
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I disagree. I think the classic design is legitimately more kid-friendly, being softer and rounder, with proportionally bigger eyes, shorter limbs...like, compared to the modern design it is much closer to the established rules of how to do cute.

Being cuter, I'm not going to argue. Generations made that clear how cute Classic Sonic was. But I don't see kid-friendly as being cute than it is something that's appropriate for kids, and I kind of think that's what some older fans are claiming by comparing the two. I may be stretching that by 3 miles, but I just find it suspicious at times.

I think that kind of scuttles your own argument; a big reason kids like the modern design is that it's familiar to them, over the qualities of the design itself.

That's actually what I meant when I said they were exposed to it more, as it was them being more used to it than the older look that adds to their liking.

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It's not as if classic (small-c, i.e. not the Generations incarnation) wasn't meant to be cool. You can see it in most of his poses; it's just that he was drawn in a way that was cute as well. But what was cool among cartoon video game mascots at the time isn't the same as what was cool in 1999, or now, so now most of the coolness has been diluated and only the cuteness remains. Modern Sonic is the same design with more of the cuteness squeezed out, leaving only coolness instead. Again, dependent on the subjective interpretation of what is cool for both the times and the individual.

With gameplay, though, I think the big divide between fans isn't just a matter of selfishness or nostalgia or bitterness or resentment. Each group of fans genuinely believes that the kind of gameplay they're criticising is objectively bad and has to be exorcised. They aren't just being petty about it. (Not just.) You can't reason with someone who thinks you're unreasonable. It's not even clear whether you should.

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It only gets worse when you have to live with the reality that people are honestly still bothered by which design is picked, despite it being the modern era. Basically, the kind of person who believes character design makes or breaks the game.

I now wonder how mariotehplumber is handling his rage seeing Sonic 4.2's logo...

EDIT: 1000 posts! Yay!

Edited by VizardJeffhog
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First of all I want to say this topic was a very entertaining reading, and I congratulate all of you.biggrin.png

But on topic I must say that for me both sonic's are child friendly, just not the same audience. Just as every franchise sonic as to evolve according to the generations, the generation of the nineties was a lot different the one we have now and because of this different designs appeal to different audiences, the modern design may seem much more "teen-friendly" to us but for kids of today its nothing. We are the ones growing up and even if we wanted or not "our"(because I'm kinda stuck in the middletongue.png ) generation as nothing to do with this one.

As you can see from what I wrote above, you can guess I started with the franchise in the nineties with the cartoons and classics, but I only got my first sonic much later, with sonic advance. Still I played the classics when I was little an I really liked them and now I appreciate them for the awesome games that they are, still there is something the new games give to me that the old ones don't, this may seem strange, but the new games give me the same feel I had when I was playing the classics has a kid. Still like the classic games, because of nostalgia and of quality, but there nothing that awakes the kid inside of me like a new sonic games specially the most recente because they also have a good quality.

So I can say that I like sonic, classic or modern, both will always have a place in my heart.smile.png

Edited by redhellc
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I'm more of a Archie Sonic and Satam Sonic fan then a Sega Sonic fan.

Truth be told I don't feel that I really fit under any one classification.

I came into the series with Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, and I like the modern Sonic design better then the classic Sonic design. Classic Sonic really doesn't look cool to me. But since I've come to like the Archie comics more then the games I feel like an outcast in the fanbase.

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I know this has been said before, but in sheer terms of character design, I do think that they toned up Classic Sonic's cuteness far too much in Generations, and also making him mute was a pretty silly choice in my opinion, because it just comes across as weird (especially since Classic Tails speaks perfectly fine) and limits what he can really do in cutscenes.

I mean, I know they wanted to differentiate between the two Sonics a bit more, but still; Classic Sonic hasn't looked that pale since Sonic 1. He's perfectly capable of frowning, looking cool, badass and what have you. Instead, we get 'cute cute cute' for 95% of his screentime.

But yeah, gameplay wise, as I said before, I like both really, although the Modern gameplay has really grown on me as of Unleashed. I don't mind them taking the series in new directions, so long as they're fun. The way I see it, in the past, the rolling physics were what set Sonic apart from other generic platformers and Mario. Now it's the boost (which is optional most of the time anyway, not that I have a problem with it). Does it really matter that Sonic doesn't roll into a ball properly if the game's still fun? Sure, the levels have become less vertical to accommodate for high speeds, but Generations has proven that the stages can still have plenty of alternate routes and paths.

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I really like the modern design more. In terms of gameplay, well hey I like both styles equally. But if I really had to choose it would have to be the modern style gameplay, generations really nailed how it should be like.

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These new games do nothing for me. I play through them once and then there's not really anything to come back to. What would there be? Alternate pats that last a fraction of a second?

Just because Hashimoto said something doesn't mean they actually pulled it off.

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These new games do nothing for me. I play through them once and then there's not really anything to come back to. What would there be? Alternate pats that last a fraction of a second?

Just because Hashimoto said something doesn't mean they actually pulled it off.

Why are you so negative about the new games? =|
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Why are you so negative about the new games? =|

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Because they lack the immersion from the old ones? I'm not negative towards the new games, but rest assured that despite how much I enjoy them I know there's still something missing from them that would make them very long lasting enough for me to keep coming back to them. For example, Generations, as great as it was, had a lot of wasted potential that a lot of people here feel like it's lacking.

Yeah, I have to agree, playing Unleashed and Generation back to back, yeah there's something missing that's keeping me interested.

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Then what exactly is missing from the modern games?

I know a lot of people have said it's in the level design, but I don't believe that to be the main culprit, or even a culprit at all.

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Yeah, I have to agree, playing Unleashed and Generation back to back, yeah there's something missing that's keeping me interested.

I'm guessing it's because of the addition of a Z-axis. In 2D, there's plenty of things you can think of for Sonic to use and still be stable. But when you try to transition that to 3D, it leaves it very bland.

...And somehow, I'm reminded of Diogenes talks about bringing genesis physics and movements into 3D. :lol:

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I'm guessing it's because of the addition of a Z-axis. In 2D, there's plenty of things you can think of for Sonic to use and still be stable. But when you try to transition that to 3D, it leaves it very bland.

...And somehow, I'm reminded of Diogenes talks about bringing genesis physics and movements into 3D. laugh.png

So the bottom line is get rid of the "meh" 2D and focus on the 3D? Because im one of those people who happen to enjoy the modern gameplay and like to see it expanded.

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Then what exactly is missing from the modern games?

I know a lot of people have said it's in the level design, but I don't believe that to be the main culprit, or even a culprit at all.

That's kind of the mystery question we've been asking ourselves regarding this. I'm not sure about level design at this point with Generations giving us space in some areas without being too wide, unless there are other aspects of the level design that people are calling out.

Might be the classic physics, but that's disregarding that the modern formula we have was made mostly from the ground up.

So the bottom line is get rid of the "meh" 2D and focus on the 3D? Because im one of those people who happen to enjoy the modern gameplay and like to see it expanded.

Not really. Sure, you could get rid of the 2D in the modern games, but that doesn't solve the problem of what feels missing.

This may need more experimentation to be done to help figure this out, I think.

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I think its the lack of interesting level gimmicks, I mean seriously in the Modern Gameplay, you're mostly bypassing the environment instead of interacting with it and it really just makes every level play the same despite technically being different.

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