Jump to content
Awoo.

How do you feel about Shadow being Sonic's Rival


chippu

Recommended Posts

Shurely shome mishtake? Other way round!! :lol:

Methinks Sonic's rivalry, in general, is just against whoever's been stupid enough to challenge him to a race / fight / "You can't stop me from destroying the world" most recently. Which probably does make it Jet, at the moment. The hawk is the only one that's really still entertaining the notion he might be faster than Sonic.

Actually, it can go both ways. Iw as expecting Knuckles to throw a fit at the end of SA2 when they all work together, saying that he had been fooled too may times and Sonic getting annoyed because the Doc wouldn't lie about something so big, etc etc. I'd like Knuckles to be right once in the future about this as well. It would put Eggman as a good enemy, if he managed to trick Sonic so well.

Edited by redmenace
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 40
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Dr. Mechano

    6

  • redmenace

    5

  • ovarloard

    4

  • Frozen Nitrogen

    4

Top Posters In This Topic

Actually, it can go both ways. Iw as expecting Knuckles to throw a fit at the end of SA2 when they all work together, saying that he had been fooled too may times and Sonic getting annoyed because the Doc wouldn't lie about something so big, etc etc. I'd like Knuckles to be right once in the future about this as well. It would put Eggman as a good enemy, if he managed to trick Sonic so well.

I would think that Knuckles would learn his lesson eventually, that Ivo's NOT to be trusted... but apparently the red one is a little slow on the uptake where Fatso's concerned.

Then again, echidnas in general seem to have a kind of genetic blindness to the madness and megalomania in the people they're working with. We've got Knux's "Robotnik wouldn't lie to me AGAIN", Tikal's "My own father isn't gonna kerbstomp me", and Shade's "Imperator Ix wouldn't want to do something bad with this Master Emerald, would he?"

Poor, poor, stupid echidnas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then again, echidnas in general seem to have a kind of genetic blindness to the madness and megalomania in the people they're working with. We've got Knux's "Robotnik wouldn't lie to me AGAIN", Tikal's "My own father isn't gonna kerbstomp me", and Shade's "Imperator Ix wouldn't want to do something bad with this Master Emerald, would he?"

Poor, poor, stupid echidnas.

And now there's only one left. Natural selection at work, gentlemen...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think that Knuckles would learn his lesson eventually, that Ivo's NOT to be trusted... but apparently the red one is a little slow on the uptake where Fatso's concerned.

Well, yes and no.

Eggman is honorable with the big truces, which are different from dropping little lies to lead Knuckles astray.

Chronicles and its debatable canon aside, Eggman has always stuck to his word whenever he temporarily allied himself with the good guys. I think it's safe to say he can be trusted in that context.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eggman is honorable with the big truces, which are different from dropping little lies to lead Knuckles astray.

The man was the first and only friend hermit-Knuckles had ever had; and he shot twelve thousand volts through Red's skull and stole the echidna's very raison d'être.

It's not so much tricksy deciet as it is the crushing of the soul.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And now there's only one left. Natural selection at work, gentlemen...
I'm not sure it's natural selection, though, if the rest of the race was eliminated/removed through SUPERnatural forces. (Chaos and "Argus".)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But does Shadow do that? He's all "Hmph" and "I'm not interested" in his typically grumpy worldview. If anything, Shadow shows far less interest in besting Sonic than any of Sonic's many rivals.

I never implied or meant to imply that I considered Shadow to be Sonic's rival.

And now there's only one left. Natural selection at work, gentlemen...

If that was the case, Knuckles would have already died.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think that Knuckles would learn his lesson eventually, that Ivo's NOT to be trusted... but apparently the red one is a little slow on the uptake where Fatso's concerned.

Oh but can you blame him? Eggman sometimes doesn't lie. I so see Knuckles trusting Eggman more after that SA2 stunt after being proven wrong and then in the next game, he'd be bickering with that Eggman couldn't be that bad becuase he had helped them once to save them all. He wouldn't be stupid, just... gullible, trusting after Eggman helped him once. Isn't that why he trusts Sonic in the first place?

Well, yes and no.

Eggman is honorable with the big truces, which are different from dropping little lies to lead Knuckles astray.

Chronicles and its debatable canon aside, Eggman has always stuck to his word whenever he temporarily allied himself with the good guys. I think it's safe to say he can be trusted in that context.

But he conquered the planet while they were out didn't he? That counts as almost as a betrayal I think, at least in Knuckles and Sonic's simple minds.

Edited by redmenace
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But he conquered the planet while they were out didn't he? That counts as almost as a betrayal I think, at least in Knuckles and Sonic's simple minds.

This is why I said "Chronicles aside", because that game did a lot of things that don't line up very well with the rest of the series... Such as the heroes making an attempt on Eggman's life, for example. Both sides were turned into questionable, morally-ambiguous versions of themselves, arguably. No surprise, considering the unabashed SatAM/Archie influence the writers drew their inspiration from.

In every non-Chronicles example, though, Eggman was perfectly honorable in his truces.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Knuckles trusts Sonic because Sonic's never lied to him. (At least not that I know of.) When it's a choice between allying with Sonic or Eggman, I would think that Knuckles would choose to stick with Sonic because Eggman has been known to spread falsehoods.

And yet Knuckles somehow seems to end up going against Sonic on Eggman's behalf. Not just once, but multiple times.

If that doesn't show that Knuckles is just a little "hard-headed", I don't know what does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Shadow fills in a good role as Sonic's Rival, now that Knuckles is seemingly nothing more or less than an Ally these days. But Shadow seems to be headed toward the same fate as Knuckles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is why I said "Chronicles aside", because that game did a lot of things that don't line up very well with the rest of the series... Such as the heroes making an attempt on Eggman's life, for example. Both sides were turned into questionable, morally-ambiguous versions of themselves, arguably. No surprise, considering the unabashed SatAM/Archie influence the writers drew their inspiration from.

In every non-Chronicles example, though, Eggman was perfectly honorable in his truces.

Yes but, he also presented himself as honest and honorable at Knuckles at the opening of S&K, right? It was a "truce" then. He tried to use Shadow by concealing the truth about him being a clone or not, he wasn't very honorable there either and they were at a "truce" since Shadow isn't really an enemy to him, he's neutral. I think Eggman should take advantage of things, but of course, not too bastardly. While I don't like Chronicles' storyline that much, that twist was probably the best thing to come of from it and one of the best examples. He did make a truce with them, and he didn't fight yet he conquered the planed anyway. He wasn't dishonest in his truce at all, but of course Sonic and Knuckles would think so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, Shadow I believe is more of a friendly rival or more friend than rival now b/c he isn't really in competition with Sonic or isn't much of an obstacle, though he is much like a Vegeta or Gary Oak as of late, an ex-rival. His background story about Maria and amnesia is already over and works with GUN now so I doubt he is challenging Sonic when he has a job to do unless writers at ST say otherwise with new (lazy/poor) char development and whatnot.

Though Shadow IMO is just a fanservice ever since his revival in Heroes.

Edited by AdventChild
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that an appropriate way to handle Shadow as well as Rouge and Omega would be to portray them as a group of violent "the ends justifies them means"-type GUN agents who sometimes gets in to conflict with Sonic and the gang due to their differing methods.

And one thing i would like to see concerning Shadow is just how he feels about Eggman. After all, the doctor is a grandchild of Gerald, just like Maria. How does Shadow feel about such a close relative to the two people he cared about the most being a psychotic megalomaniac bent on using science to conquer the world rather than "make it a better place" like Gerald wanted? The fact that Shadow still refers to Eggman as "the Doctor" seems to imply that he has some respect for him, despite being what can only be considered a true shame to the Robotnik name. And if Shadow does have some kind of respect for him, then how does he feel about Omega always trying to kill the doctor? Like, what would happen if Omega eventually DID get close enough to Eggman to deliver the final blow, and Shadow was there as well? Would he allow his robot friend to murder his, well, "step-cousin"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And one thing i would like to see concerning Shadow is just how he feels about Eggman. After all, the doctor is a grandchild of Gerald, just like Maria. How does Shadow feel about such a close relative to the two people he cared about the most being a psychotic megalomaniac bent on using science to conquer the world rather than "make it a better place" like Gerald wanted? The fact that Shadow still refers to Eggman as "the Doctor" seems to imply that he has some respect for him, despite being what can only be considered a true shame to the Robotnik name. And if Shadow does have some kind of respect for him, then how does he feel about Omega always trying to kill the doctor? Like, what would happen if Omega eventually DID get close enough to Eggman to deliver the final blow, and Shadow was there as well? Would he allow his robot friend to murder his, well, "step-cousin"?

This is extremly fertile ground that I for one love musing about. Let's think about the Shadow / Eggman relationship a little, shall we?

SA2

It's been a long, long time since I played SA2, so my conception may be warped by the fog of time, but I get the vibe that they were both trying to use the other one to further their own schemes. Shadow uses Eggman as a means by which to gather the Emeralds and effect Gerald's vengeance. Eggman uses Shadow as a means by which to gather the Emeralds and "try to take over the world!" It's Shadow's plan that manages to win out, but Eggman dosn't seem that bitter about it. They were allies of convenience only, both of them being too twisted and evil to really expect anything but a double-cross from the other when the endgame arrived.

However, even though Shadow's seeped in his vengeance-vibe all through SA2, we shouldn't forget that Ivo really did free him from 50 years of suspended animation. Granting Ivo a "wish" was a calculated ploy to get the mad scientist involved in the reactivation of the Eclipse Cannon... but even if Ivo did only free Shadow out of a search for lost weaponry, he still freed him. Where were all the so-called "heroes" then? Sonic didn't release him. Rouge didn't release him. IVO released him. After Shadow mellows out a bit following his own game, this little fact may well come back to him.

Heroes

...or the rather more interesting bit BEFORE Heroes. The canonical line is that the Shadow we have now is indeed the real Shadow; a Shadow that was found by Robotnik after the events of SA2 and dunked in a vat of green goo. You can look at this from two perspectives. Yeah, Shadow might be upset at being captured and imprisoned by Robotnik and used as a template for a million Shadow androids... but on the other hand, one could equally interpret it as Robotnik saving Shadow (again). I don't imagine the black hog can have been in very good shape after falling from orbit or whatever happened to him after Finalhazard; yet thanks to the Doctor, he's healed and capable of taking on Omega half-a-second after getting de-podded by Rouge. Again, Shadow's health is no doubt only of incidental concern to the Fat Man (in that it's difficult to make good Shadow Androids based off an injured / dead Shadow), but the fact remains that Shadow convalesces under the Doctor's care.

Shadow's game

I don't know which thread(s) of this are supposed to be canonical... but it shows that, under certain circumstances, Shadow is capable of working with the Doctor on numerous missions - or smiteing him - or, indeed, letting him go when Shadow's defeated him (in the ending where Shadow decides to become "the Knuckles of the ARK", living there in solitude and defending it as a sacred place a'la Mr. Echidna).

'06

Shadow and Eggman have a bit of banter here. "Wouldn't the door have been easier?" always makes me grin like a maniac. Eggman isn't falling over himself to help Shadow, but at the same time, he dosn't have him blasted to meaty chunks for invading his train. Which is better treatment than most people get. And let's not forget that at roughly this point Eggman's gladly promising to turn the entire nation of Soleanna into blackened glass unless Elise gives herself up; so Shadow's not that concerned about thwarting the Doc just because he's gonna kill lots of innocent people.

So there you go. Note that in none of this has Shadow really bothered to make any reference to Robotnik's family ties, at all.

All that considered, I think Shadow actually respects the Doctor - because Robotnik's the character who is most like Shadow. They're both loners who for the most part neither have (nor want?) allies; they're both quite willing (eager?) to exact painful revenge on anyone who gets in their way; and they're both utterly determined to get what they want. Shadow just does it by personally smashing anything betwen him and his target, while Robotnik sends chainsaw-wielding robots to do it for him. Plus, as mentioned above, Robotnik has (in a certain light) saved Shadow's life twice, which can't hurt their relationship.

So: what of the situation baston mentioned, where Omega's about to pull the trigger. What would Shadow do? I don't think he'd be that hasty to run and plant himself in fromt of the bullet... but I could easily see Robotnik exploiting any minor feelings of indebtedness Shadow might feel towards the Fat Man. Again, not necessarily enough for Shadow to save Eggman himself; but maybe sow just enough discord between Omega and Shadow for fatso to expedite his own escape. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If anything, Shadow is the tradional rival to the hot blooded and cocky main hero. He fits the protoman wario dynamic perfectly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.