In Support of Humans

[Badnik Zero]

Fan characters are going to be around anyways. The difference is they won't be fan characters, and they'll look good, like the owl in the Sonic OVA. If anything it'll be good for that area of fandom, because it'll give context to other furries in Sonic's world.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Badnikz

[redmenace]

Once again: there has been an en-masse furry NPC hubworld: Pachacamac's city in SA1. And that didn't explode in a fermenting barrel of self-insertion.

Possibly because no-one wants to Mary Sue as someone who's been dead for 4,000 years. But there you go. �\(�_o)/�

I don't think anyone who's determined to create their own characters is going to be stopped by the minor fact that there is no precedent. Besides, the very presence of Sonic and co. on their own imply that anthromorphic animal society exists on the world somewhere. Its non-portrayl is the confusing omission of something which logically must be there, rather than the sensible omission of something that fans thought up at random.

They're dead AND they're male AND they all look the same. The only new ones were Tikal (who gets paired off with Shadow an awfully lot I have no idea why) and her father (old and mean, who wants to be him?). Possession Sues are so many, I sometimes wonder who the pink hedgehog that murders Sonic and makes Shadow blush is exacly. it would only escalate from there in my opinion, which is a pity becase I wouldn't mind seeing animal NPC as long as they don't have more importance than the human ones. We've already enough characters as it is.

The Owl of the ova was cool, but the Mary Sues don't like him, he's not sexy okay? I don't know what sexy is exacly, but I know Shadow is and the Owl isn't. Maybe it's the attitude, if the animals were all like the Owl I don't think there would be many problems...

[Frozen Nitrogen]

They're dead AND they're male AND they all look the same. The only new ones were Tikal (who gets paired off with Shadow an awfully lot I have no idea why) and her father (old and mean, who wants to be him?). Possession Sues are so many, I sometimes wonder who the pink hedgehog that murders Sonic and makes Shadow blush is exacly. it would only escalate from there in my opinion, which is a pity becase I wouldn't mind seeing animal NPC as long as they don't have more importance than the human ones. We've already enough characters as it is.

The Owl of the ova was cool, but the Mary Sues don't like him, he's not sexy okay? I don't know what sexy is exacly, but I know Shadow is and the Owl isn't. Maybe it's the attitude, if the animals were all like the Owl I don't think there would be many problems...

Now now. The old echidna is, on and off, my favourite Sonic character. I think Pachacamac is a pretty cool guy; eh murders chao and doesnt afraid of anything.

I've no desire to see furry NPCs get the same kind of individual names, personalities and backstories that the humans had in Unleashed; not by a long shot. I thought that kinda detail was massive, unwanted overkill with the worldbuilding. I'd be quite happy just with some generic furries wandering around in the background - indeed, in much the style of the same-y echidnas from SA1, where they didn't have names and volounteered you information strictly pertaining to the political climate of the city.

[redmenace]

Now now. The old echidna is, on and off, my favourite Sonic character. I think Pachacamac is a pretty cool guy; eh murders chao and doesnt afraid of anything.

I've no desire to see furry NPCs get the same kind of individual names, personalities and backstories that the humans had in Unleashed; not by a long shot. I thought that kinda detail was massive, unwanted overkill with the worldbuilding. I'd be quite happy just with some generic furries wandering around in the background - indeed, in much the style of the same-y echidnas from SA1, where they didn't have names and volounteered you information strictly pertaining to the political climate of the city.

Kids won't care if he's cool or not, he killed chao he's mean. No one likes him, no one wants to be him or know about him. For the record I like Pachamac as well.

I agree with the second part.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Kids won't care if he's cool or not, he killed chao he's mean. No one likes him, no one wants to be him or know about him. For the record I like Pachamac as well.

I agree with the second part.

Which just goes to show that children are lame. Go Pachacamac!

[Jetronic]

It'd be like this all the time, only in 3-D~ What fun. =p

Is there anyone in there that doesn't were gloves for some random reason?

Also, humans are ok, just don't make them look fake. Unleashed did NPCs right being that pretty much everyone looked different.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Also, humans are ok, just don't make them look fake. Unleashed did NPCs right being that pretty much everyone looked different.

I didn't get the Unleashed humans at all. They seemed ridiculously over-developed for... well, what are essentially moving pieces of scenery in my mind. And going on side-quests for them, of the ilk "Our son's sneaking around at night!! We have no parenting skills so let's ask a fifteen-year-old anarchist rodent who has no respect for authority to solve the problem for us!!" was rather LOLWUT.

A great number of the '06 sidequests were stupid, but at least some of them were "Robots are attacking the city aaaaaaaargh save us!". Y'know... ones that actually tie in with the Sonic vs. Eggman theme?

So I'd like my NPCs nameless and generic (but furry), and my sidequests semi-plot-relevant. Black Knight was good for this, with it's billions of stout elfin folk and ancilliary missions of "Free the stout elfin folk from prison".

[Dr. Mechano]

I don't see how fancharacters fall into the debate at all, whether animal NPCs are added or not. I have several Sonic fancharacters- And all of them are human. Yes, people can make those, even though the series has human NPCs. The addition of animal NPCs, then, probably wouldn't put a dent in the fancharacter population.

And I still say Sonic's not a "furry series." Starring an animal is not grounds enough to call it that, especially when it has several important human and robot characters across the roster. Calling it that is about as contrived as calling Mario a "human series" because of its main character, and most of the central main cast, being humans.

By comparison, again, something like SatAM would more easily fall under this definition because the entire cast, except for the two villains, are anthropomorphic animals. You're expected to sympathize with said animals, and the two humans are portrayed in an unrealistically unsympathetic manner to deliver a conveniently heaveyhanded "Humans are bastards" aesop. I get that, and even though the series didn't appeal to me at all, I can understand why fans who grew up on it applied its views to the games.

With the games, I just don't see it. Most of the playable cast are animals, with the exception of a few robots and one human, but I'm still going to argue that this alone doesn't make Sonic a "furry series." There's absolutely no focus on the fact that the animals are animals- Sonic and friends are considered functionally human at least, and live in human society like everyone else (Except Big, I guess- He is simply natural, after all). Suddenly Eggman's the exception, not the rule- Most humans aren't supervillains, and even the one who is turns out to have a nice side on occasion.

And that brings me back to a point I made earlier- In the game universe, Sonic is a superhero, not a freedom fighter. He stands up for everyone- Humans, anthropomorphic animals, and even ordinary non-anthropomorphic animals in the early years of the franchise. And ultimately, that's what matters- Sonic's species is relevant only from an aesthetic and physical standpoint, and has no bearing on his place in the world. He's a hedgehog, and by extension a humanized animal, and that's something that doesn't matter to him. He identifies as a good, adventurous, fun-loving guy with a sense of justice- Sonic's personality defines who he is far more than the fact that he is a hedgehog, and as such there's no need to place a great deal of importance on species in the series.

I guess, to me, then... A working definition would be this. I see a furry series as one that places plot relevance on the human/animal divide, or alternatively, simply has no human presence to begin with. SatAM and several other bits and pieces of licensed Sonic lore would fall under this category. What I don't see it as, however, is a series that happens to have an anthropomorphic animal protagonist- In the games, Sonic's species really has nothing to do with how he interacts with his world, aside from the physical abilities that go with it, naturally. And because of that, I see videogame Sonic as merely a lighthearted, whimsical, "cartoon series" with a nice mix of animals, robots, and humans.

Again, my qualifiers are definitely subjective, but hopefully I have made my stance a bit clearer on why I wouldn't consider the videogame canon to be a "furry series" at all. After all, Eggman is generally seen as just as important a character as Sonic himself is in most appearances, and he's very human. It started with both, and despite developments on both sides of the special lines, it continues to follow the original two and their ongoing battle more prominently than anyone.

For that matter, why don't we see human characters in those capsules? Why not a few small children along with animals in there if humans were so prelevant back then?

There were only common, normal animals in those capsules because that's what Eggman powered his robots with. Need I remind you that, aside from the playable characters, there were no anthropomorphic animals either? They were just as absent from the world as humans were, playable characters aside.

Edited May 14, 2009 by El Gran Gordo

[Phos]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SorZpbZHBHA

Cartoon predates Sonic Adventure.

That is all.

That wasn't made by Sega. You might as well say SatAM is game canon.

Didn't Sonic Jam have several dozen pieces of art that depicted Sonic living in cities among humans?

A human world, but no humans were shown to my recollection. There might have been in one or two humans, but several of those pictures seem to be some kind of fourth wall breaking incident, where Sonic was promoting a Sega World or something. These same pictures also depicted Sonic dressed for a white collar job, waiting at a bus stop, and owning a car.

Sonic and friends are considered functionally human at least,

How many people have you seen roll up into a ball as an effective defense mechanism? Actual Hedgehogs roll into a ball to defend themselves, Sonic does it better.

[Dr. Mechano]

How many people have you seen roll up into a ball as an effective defense mechanism? Actual Hedgehogs roll into a ball to defend themselves, Sonic does it better.

I meant in terms of how they live their lives in the world. We see that they live in houses, go shopping, own vehicles... Tails even seems to have some familiarity with local scholars and university officials, in Sonic Unleashed. In terms of how they behave in human society, they're as "human" as anyone else is- That's what I meant by functionally human.

They're no more representative of nature than humans themselves are.

Edited May 14, 2009 by El Gran Gordo

[Flyboy Fox]

Well, most furries are 'functionally' human... that's what makes them furries and not just animals.

I still say that Sonic is a furry series. And yes, I would call Mario a human series more than a furry one, if those were my only two choices. But in fact there are so many characters there which are neither human nor furry that I think it really belongs in another catagory altogether.

[Diogenes]

I don't even see why you need to make a distinction in the first place.

[DarkOverord]

I personally like to put forward my own theory that South/Westside Island were just more heavily populated by animals than the rest of the world, humans are still a major species, just there's less there than elsewhere. In fact. Flickies Island even mentions Atlantis. And if SA2 is anything to go by, Echidna's are also Egyptians. Which would if the worlds magically changed, would imply humans came to Sonic's world. Not vice versa. But obviously Shadow TH Disproves this, as Ol' Doomy had been planning his big attack on humanity since he brought a huge flying fort to Earth 4000 years ago. I have to admit though, for more dark, serious plots along the lines of ShTH (No matter how bad it was). Human involvement is an almost a must because you're bound to pull in GUN and the rest of the United Federation, however, less heavy plots don't need humans as much except for maybe just Prof. Pickle's role in SU. If you pull it off right, you can easily have a human main character, in fact, they did, four times since ol' Ivo, Gerald & Maria Robotnik, "The Commander" (Or Commander/General Brutus) and Prof. Pickle. Or further from there, the United Federation's President. Elise was just bad writing, if she'd actually had a better story round her. It honestly wouldn't be that bad.

Sides. Most people complain about her because she kissed Sonic =/

[Frozen Nitrogen]

I don't even see why you need to make a distinction in the first place.

...Well, it's like saying Star Trek is a sci-fi series. You may like it because it's got lasers and aliens and stuff, and that is indeed what you'd expect from it. If suddenly they started throwing in dragons and jousting and big pointy court hats, you may become understandably confused and surly.

Same goes for the apparently sudden and contrary to SOA / SOE additional material appearence of many, many humans.

[Dr. Mechano]

I don't even see why you need to make a distinction in the first place.

I really don't either. I mean, like I said, I'm all for more animals.

My post is not anti-animal, but pro-human. I feel humans are important, and can be well-designed, likable characters. The only reason I even make a distinction at all is because it is a somewhat hot-button issue in the fanbase, and one I feel worth discussing.

I'm actually pleased with the feedback- A surprising number of fans like humans, as I do, to be in Sonic games. Sure, there's those who don't, but their arguments are helping me to understand their position a bit more, which has definitely been- and I hope will continue to be- insightful.

Of course, like I said, my favorite character is human. And I became a fan of the series well after the Japanese storyline had officially been declared "true" in all territories, so naturally I went into the series with a very different set of views than someone who grew up with the licensed Dic cartoons and Archie/Fleetway comics. I became an instant fan of Eggman the moment I saw him bust into GUN's base in the Dark side story, and I suppose the rest was history. My point with this little stroll down memory lane, of course, is that our first exposure to the series could have differing effects on how we view it and what it "should" have as far as character types go.

Pickle is one of the best new characters I've seen in a long time, I must say though. He was comically endearing, while unintrusive. I think if they keep reusing him, he could slowly become a more major part of the recurring cast. And frankly, that'd be cool.

Edited May 14, 2009 by El Gran Gordo

[Frozen Nitrogen]

By comparison, again, something like SatAM would more easily fall under this definition because the entire cast, except for the two villains, are anthropomorphic animals. You're expected to sympathize with said animals, and the two humans are portrayed in an unrealistically unsympathetic manner to deliver a conveniently heaveyhanded "Humans are bastards" aesop. I get that, and even though the series didn't appeal to me at all, I can understand why fans who grew up on it applied its views to the games.

I'll cheerfully admit that I am doing precisely what you said here. Certain lenses were grafted over my eyes way back in '91, through which I continue to view the entire series; lenses with "Mobius" and "Freedom Fighters" and "humans are bastards" printed on the inside of 'em.

Pickle is one of the best new characters I've seen in a long time, I must say though. He was comically endearing, while unintrusive. I think if they keep reusing him, he could slowly become a more major part of the recurring cast. And frankly, that'd be cool.

Yeesh. The fact that Eggman, EGGMAN, should find it necessary to kidnap another academic in order to make use of their expertise just made me hate Pickle from the start. It's EGGMAN!! He dosn't need other people's expertise!

And he dosn't even torture it out of Pickle, either. Which is again bitterly disappointing.

[Dr. Mechano]

Yeesh. The fact that Eggman, EGGMAN, should find it necessary to kidnap another academic in order to make use of their expertise just made me hate Pickle from the start. It's EGGMAN!! He dosn't need other people's expertise!

And he dosn't even torture it out of Pickle, either. Which is again bitterly disappointing.

Eggman is a genius in robotics, not ancient texts and mythology. It's not a slight against his genius to need help in a field outside of his area of expertise.

And game Eggman's a pretty nice guy, for a mad scientist terrorist anyway. He doesn't needlessly torture, fancying himself a civilized gentleman. But that's another topic for another day.

Edited May 14, 2009 by El Gran Gordo

[batson]

I dont know if this is of topic or not, but one thing i just realized is that while it is mostly true that characters hardly ever make any distinction between furries and humans in the games, that distinction IS in fact present from time to time. For instance, in Shadow the Hedgehog, Black Doom constantly talks to Shadow about "the humans" in a way that makes it clear that that is a group which Shadow himself is not part of. Doom talks condescending about the entire humans species, and tries to convince Shadow that all humans are foolish and immoral. And this is done again by Mephiles in Sonic 06, when he says that "the humans" will try to re-capture Shadow in the future (and he cant simply be referring to GUN as an organization, since Rouge and Shadow himself show that furries work within the organization as well) . And despite that fact that the Sonic version of Earth is populated by both furries and humans, Black Doom specifically mentions that he wants the earth's humans to pay the price of their sins be becoming food for the Black Arms larva.

Over all, there appears to be subtle hints in the series that suggest that humans in the Sonic universe are more ruthless and power hungry than other species, or at least that some percieve them as such (which probably wouldn't be the case unless there was at least some grain of truth behind it...)

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Eggman is a genius in robotics, not ancient texts and mythology. It's not a slight against his genius to need help in a field outside of his area of expertise.

Unconvinced. He would presumably have had a lot to do with ancient texts where figuring out blue-goo-Chaos' imprisonment in the Master Emerald. And he makes his lair in a freakin' pyramid in SA2.

I just don't think of Eggman as someone who would be willing to rely on the experties of other academics. His terroristic ambitions to enslave small animals in thoughtless robots and set up a dystopic Eggmanland speak, at best, of a man with scant regard or respect for what anyone else thinks, no matter how "clever" they might be. Otherwise he'd LISTEN to people when they say: "Oi! Stop trying to conquer the world!"

Over all, there appears to be subtle hints in the series that suggest that humans in the Sonic universe are more ruthless and power hungry than other species, or at least that some percieve them as such (which probably wouldn't be the case unless there was at least some grain of truth behind it...)

Also, this. Humans are still bastards.

[Dr. Mechano]

Also, this. Humans are still bastards.

Meh, that's kind of silly. It's not like humanized animals are biologically programmed to be better people- By being functionally human, they carry all of humanity's good points and bad points.

There are good humans(President, Pickle, Maria), and there are bad animals(Fang, Grand Battle Kukku). It's absolutely false to say that humans are inherently less moral than the equally-sentient animal characters are.

Plus there's Eggman, who while "bad", still has his good points.

Edited May 14, 2009 by El Gran Gordo

[Candescence]

Well, there's hints, sure, but really, the whole "humans are bastards" thing is relative to the individual humans, like real life. Besides, why would we listen to the villains? It's like agreeing with Dracula's "What is a man?" speech. Or agreeing with Light Yagami's outlook. Oh, wait.

Edited May 14, 2009 by Soma Cruz

[Flyboy Fox]

I've always felt that there was an inherant insinuation that, while not all 'bastards', humans are generally less conscientious and less environmentally concerned on the whole than furries, in the Sonic series. The furries seem more in tune with the forces of nature and Chaos energy, whereas the humans seem only to interact with legend and lore for artifact's sake.

It may be that the furry cast is shown now as integrating more into a human way of life, but I can't help but see them operating outside of human 'normality' and being more connected with earth and spirituality, and less with material posessions.

[Roarey Raccoon]

Keep humans out of my furry porn games . Anyway, I like Robotnik because he's Robotnik, but shitloads of generic human assholes is just not my cuppa. At least if they were generic animal assholes they'd at least look a bit more interesting. It just seems utterly absurd to me when you see people all over the place and then a gang of random hobbit-sized walking and talking super animals dashing among them, all the while no bugger bats an eyelash. Lunn Poly.

[Phos]

It's not that I feel there are too many humans in the games, I feel like there are too many NPC's. In the history of the primary games, you have played as a human a total of one time, and I don't see that changing any time soon, so any additional humans will probably be NPCs, so I don't want humans.

And I just realized the Professor Pickle was kind of useless to the plot - He doesn't seem to tell you anything beyond what a Wikipedia article on Dark Gaia could tell you. He didn't recognize Chip as Light Gaia, and in fact, didn't even seem to know of such a thing at the time.

Wait, Sonic is a hedgehog, so it kind of makes sense for humans to not be too surprised by him (All Hedgehogs shown are anthropomorphic), but why didn't anyone seem to question what Chip was?

[Dr. Mechano]

I like Robotnik because he's Robotnik, but shitloads of generic human assholes is just not my cuppa. At least if they were generic animal assholes they'd at least look a bit more interesting.

But that creates the problem of "Where did Eggman come from?", if we go by a story where he's the only one.

And eh, I prefer humans from a purely design standpoint, but those are just subjective design preferences after all. (Animals can't grow slick and hip mustaches, so I must lean to humans from an appearance standpoint.)

Edited May 14, 2009 by El Gran Gordo