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In Support of Humans


Dr. Mechano

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But that creates the problem of "Where did Eggman come from?", if we go by a story where he's the only one.

And eh, I prefer humans from a purely design standpoint, but those are just subjective design preferences after all. (Animals can't grow slick and hip mustaches, so I must lean to humans from an appearance standpoint.)

Who cares where he came from? Him being 'just there' is more than good enough for me XP. He's too much a part of the series to need some sort of justification :F.

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Who cares where he came from?

Well, I do. Most of Eggman's fans agree that his origin story(Idolizing Professor Gerald as a child, etc.) is an important component to his character. It fleshed him out a great deal, making him a more well-rounded and believable character.

...Granted, some fans are staunchly opposed to character development as a rule, finding it mucks up the simplistic charm of the series. So I guess it just depends on one's view of who the characters are, again.

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It's not that I feel there are too many humans in the games, I feel like there are too many NPC's. In the history of the primary games, you have played as a human a total of one time, and I don't see that changing any time soon, so any additional humans will probably be NPCs, so I don't want humans.
I don't see why the existence of NPCs is an issue. Don't like 'em, ignore 'em. Besides, if they weren't there in Unleashed's hubs, Station Square, etc., they would seem like ghost towns; they serve a function as part of the environment. Edited by A Ham Sandwich
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Man really go at great lenghts to shun humans from the earlier japanese concepts, when Madonna is as older as Eggman and the Chaotix band.

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I've always felt that there was an inherant insinuation that, while not all 'bastards', humans are generally less conscientious and less environmentally concerned on the whole than furries, in the Sonic series. The furries seem more in tune with the forces of nature and Chaos energy, whereas the humans seem only to interact with legend and lore for artifact's sake.

It may be that the furry cast is shown now as integrating more into a human way of life, but I can't help but see them operating outside of human 'normality' and being more connected with earth and spirituality, and less with material posessions.

Though I can't say I noticed this, I must ask- Is either side inherently more valid than the other?

Nature/spirituality and technology/material are both important forces which make up the world we live in. And this only goes to support my original point in this topic- That it helps to round out the series, giving representation to all sides of things.

Assuming these differences did exist, I wouldn't call them bad differences. Some fans identify better with the naturalistic ways of the animals, while others (like myself) could relate better to the modern, material humans.

Still, I really don't see this distinction in the series, considering Rouge- an animal- is probably the most materialistic character in the entire series (The greedy Jet applies too), whilst meanwhile Professor Pickle waxes poetic about the dynamic of night and day, and nature taking its course. I think you can find examples of both "ideas" in both "sides" of the special divide, which to me indicates the divide is nonexistent as far as personalities go.

Edited by El Gran Gordo
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Not to mention that Sonic couldn't care less about technology. He gets insensed with when freedom of the individual is violated. He owns a plane how much of an hypocrite would he be otherwise, Sonic CD has technology working in the good futures, Sonic's on vacation on SA in Station Square, which is a metropolis as techy as they come, Tails likes to fool around with techy stuff since the Sonic 2 manual right? Or technology is only bad at the hands of the humans?

Edited by redmenace
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I dont know if this is of topic or not, but one thing i just realized is that while it is mostly true that characters hardly ever make any distinction between furries and humans in the games, that distinction IS in fact present from time to time.
Note that pretty much everything you listed is directed towards Shadow. I believe the difference isn't that he's an animal, but how his specific origins set him apart. Doom tried to work Shadow as being one of them, a fellow Black Arms, and have him lead them to victory. Mephy was working the scientific monstrosity/living weapon angle, and how people (human or otherwise) would always see him as "something else" rather than one of them (this is why Rouge sticking by him means something). "Humans" is just used because it's convenient; we tend to think of it as encompassing everyone, even though in Sonic's world not everyone worth including is.
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Unconvinced. He would presumably have had a lot to do with ancient texts where figuring out blue-goo-Chaos' imprisonment in the Master Emerald. And he makes his lair in a freakin' pyramid in SA2.

I just don't think of Eggman as someone who would be willing to rely on the experties of other academics. His terroristic ambitions to enslave small animals in thoughtless robots and set up a dystopic Eggmanland speak, at best, of a man with scant regard or respect for what anyone else thinks, no matter how "clever" they might be. Otherwise he'd LISTEN to people when they say: "Oi! Stop trying to conquer the world!"

Eggman had encountered Echidna text before. The gaia manuscripts were nothing that was as wide spread as the echidnas. While you say you don't see him as willing to rely on others, when he has scarce information on the subject, he's going to have to get a better source of information. If it so happens to be a professor, so be it. Extract the information and leave and carry on.

EDIT: Pyramid lair means nothing. It's just a useful place to hide a base.

Edited by DarkOverord
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Well, I do. Most of Eggman's fans agree that his origin story(Idolizing Professor Gerald as a child, etc.) is an important component to his character. It fleshed him out a great deal, making him a more well-rounded and believable character.

...Granted, some fans are staunchly opposed to character development as a rule, finding it mucks up the simplistic charm of the series. So I guess it just depends on one's view of who the characters are, again.

You want to know the back story of the balloon shaped man who devotes his life to taking over the world using robots but is constantly foiled by a blue anthropomorphic hedgehog?

I don't see why the existence of NPCs is an issue. Don't like 'em, ignore 'em. Besides, if they weren't there in Unleashed's hubs, Station Square, etc., they would seem like ghost towns; they serve a function as part of the environment.

If the designed the levels with the correct philosophy, the hubs would be redundant. The point of hubs in Adventure was exploration, but I'd like to see that be part of the actual levels.

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You want to know the back story of the balloon shaped man who devotes his life to taking over the world using robots but is constantly foiled by a blue anthropomorphic hedgehog?

Yes. And well, I do know it, because they went through with it. And I have to say it was quite interesting and made Eggman a very sympathetic and believable character.

Your oversimplification of who Eggman is aside, there's a lot of personality to be found there.

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If the designed the levels with the correct philosophy, the hubs would be redundant.
I disagree. Exploration while running through a level can be of a different sort than exploration in a hub area. And there are other benefits to hubs...some people actually do want to talk to those NPCs, y'know.
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I disagree. Exploration while running through a level can be of a different sort than exploration in a hub area. And there are other benefits to hubs...some people actually do want to talk to those NPCs, y'know.

So long as they don't randomly flail at me like they did in Sonic Adventure it's okay.

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If the designed the levels with the correct philosophy, the hubs would be redundant. The point of hubs in Adventure was exploration, but I'd like to see that be part of the actual levels.

Even without hubs, the humans can be part of the town environment, i.e. the market area of daytime Shamar Act 1.

I disagree. Exploration while running through a level can be of a different sort than exploration in a hub area. And there are other benefits to hubs...some people actually do want to talk to those NPCs, y'know.

While I like the use of hubs, I don't want them to be overdone. I personally would like to see hubs as more of an optional bonus region rather than a mandatory "default area" if you catch my drift.
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The human world actually makes sonic's image cooler. He's not just some generic cartoonish animal living in a cartoonish world. Realism is always a welcomed factor.
Fail

This is why I don't want more humans. Nothing about bringing Sonic's original unique fantasy world of checkers, loops odd flaura and fauna and style, closer to the bland uninspired image of our world appeals to me at all.

Is it not odd to note that as the focus on humans in Sonic became greater, the fantasy factor has decreased? Now we have human cities, cars, presidents and presidential buildings that look suspiciously like the white house, and then races and continents and flags that highly resemeble our world.

My view on humans would improve slightly if they were to stay in keeping with Sonic's style, but they're not, they are changing (part of the problem not it entirely) the very nature of Sonic itself, and his fun unique look is only getting blander and more realistic because of it.

Originally Robotnik was cool, and still is. Hes a human yes, but hes got a look and style befitting of the charm of Sonic's world. He had mystery, and sometimes mystery is what keeps a character cool. I personaly don't ever really want to know Sonic's origins, I don't want to see his parents or anything like that...but it is reasonable to assume Sonic has parents...its also reasonable to assume that there are other humans other than Eggman, but does that mean we need to see them? No, not really. It takes some of his charm and mystery away.

Anyway, hold on, how is Sonic being "some generic cartoonish animal living in a cartoonish world" less generic than, some cartoon character living in a highly realistic world?

Wouldn't Sonic's own original style be more unique than generic rip-off of our own world 101?

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I disagree. Exploration while running through a level can be of a different sort than exploration in a hub area.

Seconded. Hubs are for things you can't do in regular levels. I'm for a dynamic hub, like in Mario 64. Basically, you interact with small parts of the hub level to open new areas. Draining the moat in that game was pretty damn cool. Things like optional sidequests and just general flavor are things that go into a hub world. Exploration in a Sonic level is about giving the player options as they move forward, not necessarily puzzle solving or interactivity. The high road or the low road, stuff like that.

People who prefer story in their Sonic game probably prefer hubs and NPCs because they add to the immersion factor. I've always been a fan of the classic level-act formula to an extent though. A classic stage rush mode could be included in games, for the whiners and speed lovers, IMO. I would restrict that to no saves though, just lives and continues, to encourage playing the core game. I mean we already have story mode and theater modes for the story lovers, it would only add to replay if you could experience the games in new ways, and it wouldn't be hard to implement. Just mix it up a bit.

Edited by Badnikz
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Reminds me a lot of humans vs espers war in ZKC (when will I stop reffering to it? :P). Both of them have their people who detest the other, and people who want to ally. You can't say furries or humans are all this or that because they're all different, from Maria and Tikal to corrupted GUN forces and Knuckles' tribe. Maybe the 'humans are bastards' message is so strong because there are certainly much more humans and corruption of furries ends more often with their fall.

Anyway, I got used to thinking of Sonics as of their personifications, so I can't be really accurate, but I can say there's nothing against having some people around to a point it doesn't seem so overwhelming (as seen in SA2 and SU), especially if it concerns a more 'mature' plot.

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That wasn't made by Sega. You might as well say SatAM is game canon.

Alrighty then, who did? It was included on the Sonic Jam CD. Which was made by SEGA.

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I'll be honest here. Sonic Heroes is one of my favourite 3D games - not because of how it played (SA2's engine would have done a better job) but because its design and lack of certain roadblocks made the Sonic franchise charming again. One of those roadblocks was Adventure Fields, another was 'uber seriousness' as kick-started in SA2 and thankfully ended in Sonic 06. Another for me, I must say, have been humans.

Now, logically it makes sense that, with Eggman running around, there are other humans living on the same planet as Sonic. The thing is, Sonic the Hedgehog is about a blue hedgehog that runs around very fast in technicolour landscapes. His aim is to defeat a technological megalomaniac from destroying his countryside home and turning it into a city/metropolis. I much preferred the subtle inference of humans, rather than their actual appearance, as 'realism' is something that I feel doesn't belong in the Sonic series whatsoever. I can only really except SA2 because it was such a fun game to play (I pretty much ignored all the silly bollocks about grandfathers and Marias, it was all a bit dumb to me), and SA1 only really had humans on the odd occasion, where Sonic was out of his element (Station Square). His element? The countryside. Unpopulated areas by humans. His home.

Another way of looking at it is, most humans are all about colonising and building more homes and airports and all this stuff, right? As we evolve as a society, we have to fell trees to pave the way for buildings and other things. If we go back to the idea that Sonic is saving his home from such activity from Eggman, does that make humans a neutral group of people? In my mind, it would more likely make humans the enemy in Sonic's eyes - people that accept the changes to the countryside in order to build towns and cities.

And Eggman could theoretically be seen as a visionary that is in fact moving human society forward - ignoring the fact that he does want global domination and everything. But even then he always talks of 'Eggmanland' which is hardly world dominance in itself. Look at the citadel in Sonic Unleashed: to anyone else, it's merely a kind of Disneyland. What reason do humans have to cower in fear of this man?

I guess the whole 'humans could be Sonic's enemies' is a bit far fetched, but still food for thought. The main point is, Sonic Adventure 2 took the series down a 'realism' route that I simply don't agree with. I'm fine with non-canon medium such as the comics or cartoons make more of the game's storyline than what there really is, but for me Sonic has always been about escaping realism.

What makes the games interesting at all when you piledrive it with bloated storylines and out-of-place humans? Even Professor Pickle irked me, because he just looked so out of place in the whole thing. Maybe the right way to say it is, Pickle did fit into the world, but Sonic and Tails surely did not. And this extends to the levels of as well - too much realism, even in a world as cartoony as Unleashed. Why do I want to play a game that is a cartoony replication of New York? I have no interest whatsoever of playing through a cheesy stereotype of China or Europe either - I want what the Sonic the Hedgehog games gave me, and that's true original design that's inspired by real life (i.e. Green Hill Zone, Emerald Coast), not a cartoon mimickry.

EDIT:

More than that, why must a series that stars an animal exclude humans? Let's look at a series that did it the other way- The Mario series stars a human, but it's still full of wacky species based on animals, plants, and other oddities. Nowhere have I seen the Mario fanbase argue "Bowser should be the only animal, and everyone else should be human like Mario and his friends."

I think that's a bit of an illogical argument, though. Mario games have been consistent in their content. From word 'go' it featured a human, evil reptile nemesis in a colourful wacked-out world where all of the enemies were strange creatures or based on animals. Paratroopas and Hammer Bros. are a distinct example from the first game.

To Mario Galaxy, where you're still about the only human character in a strangely warped world featuring abnormal enemy creatures, colourful worlds and a charming premise behind it. About the only evolution is the addition of a proper backstory, told by Rosalina in the observatory thing. But even then that was optional and not forced down your throat. And it was so imaginitive that it wasn't trying to be Twilight or something that teenagers would happily bust one off to (it was insanely sweet though, you'd probably lose a few teeth watching it, lol).

I think the perspective is, if you took Super Mario, removed all the colourful worlds, stuck him in a grey city with levels that used a drab colour palette, a plotline that looked like it was a Hollywood movie reject and told in three or four cutscenes between every level, and changed all of the abnormal and creative enemies into mutant animals or aliens or something... would you feel like something is amiss? Because honestly that's how a lot of people feel about Sonic right now.

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Well, I do. Most of Eggman's fans agree that his origin story(Idolizing Professor Gerald as a child, etc.) is an important component to his character. It fleshed him out a great deal, making him a more well-rounded and believable character.

...Granted, some fans are staunchly opposed to character development as a rule, finding it mucks up the simplistic charm of the series. So I guess it just depends on one's view of who the characters are, again.

Actually, as much as I dislike more humans and the fact the series is now set on Earth, a little back story to Robotnik would be interesting. How did he get to be like he is? What was his first creation? What possessed him to capture animals and create robot look-a-likes? Many other questions like that.

I think the only character that should not get a backstory would be Sonic. Sonic is there, as is, hes fast, he has been, I don't want to know if he has all his life or not.

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TMS Entertainment. They didn't become a subsidiary of SegaSammy until 2005.

And yet they were under the supervision of SEGA in the first place. If SEGA didn't want humans, they would have spoken up.

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I think the only character that should not get a backstory would be Sonic. Sonic is there, as is, hes fast, he has been, I don't want to know if he has all his life or not.

I do! But only so long as there are hilarious antics involved.

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Saying Sonic is against technology is rubbish. He has the tornado.

And a cool car.

DriftSonic.jpg

Not to mention a house, and if Riders means anything, a hovercar that he and his friends take on leisurely drives through the city.

Sonic is, like I said, functionally human. He lives a human's life with all the human perks- He's not some innocent woodland creature who lives off nature, and he never was, at least not in the games.

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And a cool car.

DriftSonic.jpg

Not to mention a house, and if Riders means anything, a hovercar that he and his friends take on leisurely drives through the city.

Sonic is, like I said, functionally human. He lives a human's life with all the human perks- He's not some innocent woodland creature who lives off nature, and he never was, at least not in the games.

Yep, the Cyclone, I forgot it! And besides that, technology itself was never said to be bad. Sonic CD had the good futures filled with technology.

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